lezlers
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Posts posted by lezlers
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On 1/14/2019 at 7:10 PM, HunterHunted said:
I need to clarify a couple of things. My point wasn't to make a judgment about whether the police should have Mirandized Terra or if she was in custody, but to explain to previous posters who thought that the police always have to Mirandize a person before speaking to them and that person's lawyer has to always be present that this is simply not true. And as an attorney, you know that. I was simply explaining why we may or may not have seen some of the things we typically associate with police on tv.
I never said that Terra was or wasn't in custody. I explained the reasons that police might or might not give Terra a Miranda warning. Many departments give it as a matter of course whenever there is a serious injury or death. It's a decent CYA strategy. However, there are strategic reason why an investigator might choose not to give the warning. From the moment someone came to help Terra, she literally could not stop talking. Sometimes stopping to explain their Miranda rights can break the flow of that conversation. An investigator may make the strategic decision to not interrupt that flow. And my point is that people shouldn't rely on tv tropes even if they are grounded in fact and law if they find themselves in trouble in the real world.
I also explained that even if they had Mirandized Terra, she never seemed to invoke her right to counsel and continued to answer questions. So one can't simply use it as a shield if they don't really understand how it works. Heck, you can invoke your right to counsel and still continue to babble away unsolicited by the police.
Finally being discharged from a hospital is entirely separate from being in police custody. Admission and discharge from a hospital has nothing to do with being in police custody; they have literally nothing to do with each other. Without an arrest, a lawfully executed emergency detention order by law enforcement, or a court order, a hospital cannot keep you. You are fully free to walk out the door. It's called a discharge against medical advice. I don't want to say that people do it all the time, but it happens often enough that there is a term and reporting codes for it. I do practice health law. This is something I'm knowledgeable about although the details of criminal law aren't my areas of expertise.
As to your last paragraph, I totally agree and get that. I'm a defense attorney so I'm naturally always formulating arguments to show why someone isn't free to leave with respect to Miranda. The standard isn't whether or not a person COULD leave, it's whether or not a reasonable person would FEEL FREE to leave. I don't think a reasonable person, under those circumstances, would think they could just say "I'm leaving" get up and try to walk out. I think we agree on more than it appears. :)
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9 hours ago, DrivingSideways said:
Thank you! This enraged me too! Your daughter just barely survived an attack by a grown ass man, and has KILLED SOMEONE. Can you give her a minute to breathe, you selfish bitch?
Does the hospital really allow the dog to stay with her? Because I thought that was awesome. Terra and the dog are the only ones I don't despise on this show.
Yeah, there's actually a picture out there with the real Terra in the hospital with the dog on her bed. It's really sweet.
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11 hours ago, Madding crowd said:
My husband is a police officer so I know how this works. However this was a fictionalized TV show and they were telling the story of Dirty John. No fiction show will be 100% accurate and they will not show every detail. Most people will expect to be entertained but also for the story to make sense and be relatively accurate.
In real life there was a witness on the scene who immediately verified Terra was fighting for her life. While the police did need to ask questions, they never suspected her of anything than self defense and I don’t think the show portrayed it that way. They also condensed the time frames giving the impression the police questioned her the moment she arrived at the hospital when again this wasn’t the case. I don’t think people here are ignorant about how the law works as much as frustrated as to how this episode was structured.
As far as Debra not wanting to be responsible to discontinue life support, I can see why she wouldn’t want to be in that position. Her daughter just attacked the man who was trying to kill her and it would look like revenge for Debra to pull the plug and it also implies a family relationship she no longer felt.
This is an important piece of information. While I firmly believe Terra would have been considered to be in custody for purposes of Miranda (I also know a little bit about this, given it's my profession) if the police honestly did not suspect her of any wrong doing at the time of questioning, they wouldn't need to Mirandize her. Miranda should be used when someone is subject to a custodial interrogation, which is a line of questioning designed to illicit an incriminating response. If that officer knew Terra had been attacked by John and was defending herself, then no, Miranda wouldn't be an issue. But people have been prosecuted for assault and murder when the self defense goes beyond what would be reasonably necessary to defend ones self. Remember, Terra and Deb still had to wait to see if Terra was going to be prosecuted. So if that cop hadn't Mirandized her and the DA decided she went too far in defending herself (which never would have happened, but let's just go for the sake of argument) and wanted to use the statements she made in that hospital room (such as her belief in "kill or be killed"), she'd be shit out of luck.
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12 hours ago, HunterHunted said:
Most people think that every time the police question a person, the police must give the person a Miranda warning. That's not true. The police have to give a Miranda warning if the individual is in police custody. One of the key aspects of determining whether or not Tara had been in custody is whether Tara felt to free to leave after the police questioned her. Considering that she was discharged from the hospital the next day, Tara was probably not in custody. However, the fact that the police barred Debra and Veronica from the room suggests that Tara could make a decent argument in court that she might have thought she was in custody and her statements should be excluded assuming the police failed to give the warning.
Most importantly even if both parties agree that it was a custodial interrogation and she was given a Miranda warning, an attorney only has to be present if the suspect invokes their right to have an attorney present. Many people get the warning and NEVER ask to have an attorney present during questioning.
Additionally, the police had no knowledge about whether what occurred was a crime. Yes, John was near death, but they had no understanding of the circumstances that precipitated it. Was it self-defense? Was Tara mentally ill and delusional? That's why the investigator was asking her about whether she thought the zombie apocalypse was real. Later after questioning witnesses and relevant parties, doing an investigation, and performing an autopsy, we see the DA inform Tara and Debra that no crime was committed.
Finally, the hospital can only bar the police from a patient's room if it could be dangerous to the health and safety of the patient, other patients, the staff, or the police. Even then, those bars tend to only be temporary. For example if the patient was so mentally unstable that the police aren't going to get anything useful from the patient and the questioning might further destabilize the patient, the patient is so immuno-compromised that allowing the police to enter without masks, gloves, and clean suits was going to introduce something fatal, or the patient was sick with something so infectious and deadly that it would spread and cause a pandemic (these are obviously extreme examples).
So the police didn't know what happened, they weren't sure if Tara's actions were a crime, she wasn't in custody, and she never asked go have her lawyer present.
I don't think Deb said no because she didn't want to get into trouble. I think she said no because her head was too mixed up to thimk about the decision rationally or compassionately. She didn't have the emotional distance.
Not to nitpick but Terra was absolutely in custody for purposes of Miranda at that point. She was not free to walk out of that hospital until she was discharged. And we don't know if she was detained or not at that point, I'm guessing she was. Before a line of questioning like that, she absolutely should have been Mirandized. At the time of questioning someone had been brutally assaulted and was on life support at the hands of someone else. That, by itself, creates reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred independent of whether an affirmative defense to that possible crime might exist. So we have a person who put someone else in the hospital on life support. That person is now a patient at the hospital and has not been discharged. There is a police officer at her bedside asking her questions about the incident. That is a textbook situation that would require her Miranda rights being read if for no other reason that to cover the officer's ass.
1 hour ago, newyawk said:Well, I just meant her mother (who was on her way to the hospital) should have been present in that she could have stepped in and said "not without a lawyer" whereas a traumatized, still in shock Terra might not have had the presence of mind to ask for one.
But someone earlier said that the cops weren't even required to read the Miranda rights since she wasn't being arrested.
Yeah but that's not how the law works. I disagree with that other poster for reasons stated below.
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20 hours ago, newyawk said:
That expression on John's face when he fumbled the knife and lost it was THE BEST. But that EYEBALL stab? My God. I had to Google that to see if that really happened and apparently it did. GO, TERRA GO. I can't imagine ever nopt having nightmares again after having to do something like that.
Had I not read some articles about it beforehand, and had this just been a TV movie, I would have thought Veronica would have been the one to do the deed.
How could they have let that lady cop question Terra without a lawyer present and before her mother even got there? The hospital staff shouldn't have let a cop anywhere near her at that point.
Terra might present like she's 12 but she's an adult. Her mother did not have to be present for questioning as if she were a juvenile. Police question people in the hospital after accidents every day. I do wonder if she mirandized her first, tho. That definitely should've happened.
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22 hours ago, MerBearStare said:
I turned my head away when Terra started stabbing John because I'm squeamish and have a thing with eyes. The sound effects themselves were pretty gross.
Ronnie's "Even his organs sucked" made me laugh out loud. I've enjoyed this series, but I will not miss the vocal fries. Hopefully next season won't take place in SoCal.
I'm curious what they're going to do next season. Pick another podcast? Another true story? A totally fictionalized account? Is it going to be like a True Detective type thing where each season is a totally different story with different characters (and hopefully won't suck as much ass as that show did in it's second season?)
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1 hour ago, mythoughtis said:
I has to laugh at this. Not at you.
- I mean no disrespect to you.
It was the sensationalized commercial comment that started my laughter- because the entire 8 episode show had been sensationalized. I really need to listen to the podcast because I think the writers and producers of this have done the true story an injustice. Of course, I think that about a lot of fictionalized true stories. Having to wonder which scenes are fake and which are true cheapens the entire thing for me.
No worries, I'm not offended. I listened to the podcast (highly recommend, although Deb and her daughters' voices will drive you nuts) and the show actually did a great job at staying true to the story.
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On 1/10/2019 at 8:04 AM, mythoughtis said:
I don’t see it that way. We are flooded with commercials for this show ... which tout how crazy this all sounds and then say ‘it’s 100% true’. The end of every episode has the disclaimer about dramatizations or FICTIONALIZATION.
Based on, inspired by, dramatized or fictionalized is not 100% true. Somewhat close? Yes, probably.
But I still feel free to say ‘this or that’ didn’t happen.
If the standard for "true story" episodes is everything is 100% true, nothing short of a surveillance video would suffice. The disclaimer on the actual show is what we should go on, not a sensationalized commercial.
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On 1/9/2019 at 9:11 AM, itsadryheat said:
Debra Newell was on WWHL with Andy Monday night. She was behind the bar. Andy asked her a question, something like "what do you want people to know that isn't shown". She said the seven months(?) worth of research she did and my favorite, all the romance she had with John.
The main reason I still loathe Debra. Even after everything that happened she can't face the reality that she was being conned. She still insists it was some great love story that just took a bad turn. She refuses to accept that he was likely never in love with her at all. She's completely delusional.
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On 1/8/2019 at 8:04 AM, bichonblitz said:
I saw the real Debra on a talk show the other night and her voice was normal. I don't know where Connie Britton dug up this breathy cutesy voice but it makes me not like her as an actor.
She probably got it from the podcast. Debra was VERY breathy and giggly throughout the whole thing. It was infuriating, given the ultimate conclusion of the story.
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On 1/7/2019 at 7:22 AM, bichonblitz said:
I had a problem with this episode because the replay's showed John and his crazy antic/ thoughts but how do we know what he was really thinking, who he was contacting, when, what he actually said to the police when he burned the car, etc..... Granted, we know he was batshit nuts but this is supposed to be a true story. That whole re-enactment of what lead up to his showing up late to Debra's charity event is pure speculation. A waste of an episode.
Well, they can interview people other than John, such as the cops who questioned him, the women he talked to online, the other people he interacted with ect. Just because they can't talk to him doesn't mean everything is completely made up. By that logic, you can't take anything Debra or the family say at face value either because John's not there to verify. Also, it's based on a true story, it's not a documentary. Some editorializing is to be expected.
I liked this episode. I always like when shows and movies "rewind" and go over the same events from someone else's perspective. I don't think that's ever a waste.
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On 1/10/2019 at 8:14 AM, MV713 said:
Old School Values = putting your head in the sand, sweeping problems under the rug, and never talk about anything important. Oh but family!
Can we all spell Dolores name correct? Just a nit pick but its not spelled Delores.
As soon as people stop saying "so and so could care less." If they COULD care less, it means they DO care. Think about it.
And "such and such is the worse." What does that even mean? It's the WORST.
Ah hem. I feel better now. Carry on.
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On 1/9/2019 at 8:51 PM, ninjago said:
It is crazy how the women who are most committed to praising the "old fashioned"ness of their family's values are the ones who are treated the worst by their husbands. Jennifer has an absent husband who sticks her with five terrible children, Delores's husband ran around with "whores" and showed no interest in their children until they were teenagers, Teresa got sent to jail and been called a c-word by her cheating husband, Melissa's husband disrespects her, let his parents disrespect her, and let their children disrespect her. Compare all of these marriages to women like Ken and LVP or Kyle and Mauricio.
Why are these women so complicit in their own disrespect?
Because they spend their lives being brainwashed by misogynists to believe that living in a misogynistic house is a good thing.
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On 1/7/2019 at 6:50 AM, Misslindsey said:
I believe Kandi. She really is not a liar and tends to admit when she does shady shit. I do not mind Don Juan or The Factory crew in small doses. I forget which Kandi spin-off where Riley called out Don Juan and it was hilarious. Then again I am biased, because I really cannot stand Porsha.
I believe it was a set up by Kandi's crew. Kandi hasn't STFU about Dennis and her friend that dated him. What are the odds that Kandi's crew member who has gotten into beefs with Porsha before would just happen to be cruising around the same area of the venue at the party that Dennis and Porsha are at with said friend? That's just too much of a coincidence for me. I'm sure Porsha did freak out, but Kandi knew what was going down beforehand.
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4 hours ago, Drogo said:
He thrives there.
Institutionalization is a very real thing. It appears that Matt has spent the vast majority of his life in one institution or another, from the time he was a child. It's literally all he knows. Remember Dom from last season? He was in Canada and was required to stay in a halfway house for a year upon release. Apparently Canada takes reintegration into society much more seriously than we do here. Here, you just get taken in a van and "released into the community" at some random location. There are no steps taken to aid you in reintegration. So someone who has spent a significant amount of time incarcerated is much more likely than not to wind up right back in prison because they literally don't know how to function outside of prison walls. It's a very real and very sad phenomenon.
But Matt is a tool. It also doesn't look like he's had any sort of treatment for his raging addition, either. You can not be physically dependent on a substance anymore but still be a raging addict, like Matt. No treatment + no fear of going back inside = start a betting pool on how long it'll be before his next arrest.
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8 hours ago, Spike said:
The prison Lizzie was in has a serious contraband problem if she was able to purchase $90k in drugs over two years. It would be nice if they could prosecute her for it as she stupidly admitted it on tv. Maybe they need to start drug testing inmates and revoking good time credit or extending sentences when they are using. If they can have parole revoked for drug use why is it tolerated while still in prison? I know some contraband will always get through but she had access to a pipeline.
That's why Scott spend a bunch more money on a lawyer and she spent an extra year in jail, remember? She was caught with drugs and cell phones.
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On 1/4/2019 at 6:39 PM, CoachWristletJen said:
This dude lives with his mother. How does he not have money saved for his goddess?
The juxtaposition of him fretting over the ring and her violating probation by slurping alcohol through a fancy straw... priceless!
Nitpick: she's not on probation or parole. She was in federal prison.
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On 1/2/2019 at 6:40 PM, Neurochick said:
The thing is, not everyone who does the same crime does the same time. A fifteen year old middle class suburban kid does the same thing, his family gets him a lawyer to say, “he’s just going through a phase,” and boom, kid does probation.
While I agree there's quite a bit of disparity with respect to the way people are treated in the criminal justice system based on their race, I'm sure that's far from the only factor here. Being tried as an adult at 15 is not common. The prosecution would have to justify that decision and they'd have to give more reasoning than the color of his skin. I'm guessing he earned it.
On 1/3/2019 at 1:08 PM, Neurochick said:I'm not saying that he didn't deserve the sentence, I'm just saying that not everybody gets the same sentence for the same crime. I believe it has been proven that black people get harsher sentences than white people. Just saying.
I don't think anyone would disagree with you. Brock Turner, anyone?
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21 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:
I felt bad for Jennifer. It strikes me that she is in a similar position that Melissa was in back in season 1, except with a dose of traditionalism tossed in so less fun for her. Melissa was expected to keep the house, but at least she got to socialize with her husband, go out and have fun, etc. It seems to me that jennifer is expected to keep the home and primarily be at home. I suspect her life is a bit lonely. Except she is on this show which is odd that her husband ever agreed to it.
That said, I did agree with him when he said she needed to be stronger with the kids, but her "you're scolding me" reaction resulted in raised an eyebrow from me. She looked genuinely upset and embarrassed.
I don't feel bad for her. Doesn't she have like, 2-3 nannies? So how much time is she ACTUALLY spending with those kids between the hours they spend in school and the hours they're with the nannies? Now I totally get choosing to pick your battles and bribing your kids, my husband and I have similar discussions (I'm of the pick your battle camp while he seems to choose Every Single Battle) but that's more of something that happens when you're worn down after spending hours upon hours with your kids, not when you're seeing them for the one hour a day they're not with the nanny. Plus, you saw her on the phone with her daughter. The minute the daughter started crying (which you know wasn't genuine given how quickly she stopped once she got what she wanted) her first response was "I'll buy you something." It wasn't a last resort, it's just the way she handles any discontent from her kids. She's teaching them to fill any void in their life with material things, which is how she herself lives. Her days are spent shopping for Chanel and convincing herself that being treated as less than a man in her culture is a good thing. A guilded cage is still a cage. Now, if she admitted that her life is less than ideal that would be one thing. But the woman gloats non-stop and seems to be on some kind of mission to convince the world that going back in time a few centuries with respect to how women are treated would be a GOOD thing. It's gross.
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22 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:
Speaking of the scene of Jennifer and her mom at the Jovani Store...anyone catch that conversation.
Nebil prefers going out with his "friends" and leaves Jennifer at home.
I mean, would you wanna hang out with Jennifer and those five screechy children on your day off?
22 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:They haven't addressed it yet on the show and who knows if they will.
To me - possible car accident and/or burn scars at the shoulder?
The one at her neck - was a circular cut - flying debris?
It looked like a curling iron burn to me.
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3 hours ago, ladle said:
That scene made me feel so bad for Milania. My adolescence was one big Awkward Stage, and I can't imagine evidence of that existing so publicly. *shudder* While the Giudice girls come off as bratty at times, they didn't choose any of this and I hope they come through it okay. I do feel like they need to be in real therapy and off of our TVs.
If you're talking about Marge Jr., I agree! At times she's so funny and logical and at other times she's just so... extra. I get the sense that that's her actual personality though (maybe turned up a degree for TV).
It totally is. I listened to a podcast interview with her. I actually liked her a lot more afterwards, when I realized that's just who she is, she's not putting on a show with the cameras.
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3 hours ago, ladle said:
See, normally I would completely agree with you -- e.g. I'm totally with you on the Tre example -- but I think this example is different because, in my opinion, Jackie did involve Jen's kids in an inappropriate way. Mileage varies, obviously!
Again, I see this differently. I think if I hosted a party and someone I didn't know very well but didn't particularly get along with then wrote an article questioning my drinking while pregnant, even if the gist was "Drinking while pregnant is basically okay," and then concluded it with something like, "Well, I hope the research is right and that the unborn baby turns out okay!" I'd find that shady and I'd be annoyed. Again, I don't see Jackie's mention of Jen's kids as neutral - for me, that article was so shady it might as well have been an apple grove.
Clearly opinions differ. And as stated emphatically by Teresa Giudice circa season 1, whilst wearing a Bret Michaels hair bandana, "Dat's what makes da world go round!"
How so, though? The only thing she said about the kids was that they were sweet and Jen buys them a lot of gifts. How is that involving them "in an inappropriate way"? She writes a parenting column. Anything she writes is going to mention kids in some way, so it can't really be inappropriate by way of mentioning them at all. I DO agree with you that the article was shady and Jackie knew exactly what she was doing writing it. I just don't think she was insulting or attacking her kids in any way, which is my issue with Jen's reaction.
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3 hours ago, mythoughtis said:
You are right- she did say that. Yet, I believe someone said that he only got out of prison two days before their first date. Supposedly that was part of the reason he was so underdressed compared to her for the date. So I wonder if that was true - what prison allowed him to sign up for an online dating account. Our state prison does not allow their prisoners internet access, nor do our work- release centers.
You need to watch Love After Lockup. There are whole websites where inmates post personal ads to "meet people" (aka: find more suckers to scam.)
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On 1/3/2019 at 8:30 AM, Barb23 said:
I know John was after Debra's money & he was never going to change his ways even though at first Debra thought he could (part of his con). I was just wondering how long it would have taken Debra to realize John was a money seeking druggie con man if she hadn't have had concerned family members that were onto him from the get go. He might have kept up the wining & dining for years (on her dime no less) before she caught on. Or it could have ended very badly very quickly for her. We all know how his personality changed so quickly. Just speculations on my part.
All you need to do to answer that question is to look at his relationship with his ex-wife Tonia.
4 hours ago, Ninny said:Well, I've been a long time lurker and this TV show is the one that has made me register to comment!
I seriously can't get over Debra, nor am I able to drum up any sympathy for her at all. When John said something to the effect early in their relationship that he could take out her daughter (I forget which one he was speaking about) at 1000 yards, that's when I would have shown him the door. When she said in the podcast that she just thought he was kidding and she giggled, I was thinking WTH. That's not something you joke about - not about my kids anyway. I can't imagine any decent mother that would have stood for that.
I could barely get thru the podcast when Debra was speaking. That giggling was more than I could take. This is not a funny story you're telling lady.
Debra is THE WORST. She's as vapid as they come.
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S09.E01: Dot Dot Dot
in Teen Mom 2
Can someone tell these nitwits that they don't need to have a child with every dingbat they date for any period of time? Christ, they're children, not parting prizes! Between Kail, Javi and Jenelle, they could form a football team with all of their dating trophies. And this episode didn't endear me to Babs at all. She is so desperate for a relationship with her daughter, she's willing to just tell her anything she wants to hear to appease her. People have said it before and it still rings true: she values her relationship with Jenelle over her grandchildrens' well being.
My heart broke for poor little Aubree. Adam is a piece of shit. Thank goodness Aubree has a strong, loving support system at home and thank god for Cole. I know Chelsea has her share of critics when it comes to "replacing" Adam with Cole but Aubree is old enough to see what's going on and form her own opinions. She knows Cole is there and Adam is not. I hope karma slaps Adam in the face in the most brutal way possible. I also have to give it up to Chelsea for keeping her cool and letting Aubree process what happened. Considering I was in tears watching it at home and don't even know these people, I probably would've put a hit out on that scumbag by now.
Kail continues to be a selfish bitch.
Briana continues to be dumb and look like a deer in headlights behind her coke bottle glasses. Can someone please give that girl an oil absorbing face mask?