KingOfHearts

I stop thinking about this show for a while, then I come back to it. Thinking about Zelena and her relationship with Regina, she isn't a bad idea on paper. Giving Regina a platonic bond with someone she hasn't terrorized actually serves her character well. She always had this "happy ending" ideal where she gets the dashing husband and is loved by all, but forging a passionate platonic relationship would've shown good character development. It's like S5 of Buffy where instead of giving Buffy yet another love interest, they decided to give her Dawn as an anchor and reason to live. It was less weird for someone like Zelena to hang around Regina because she too had a villainous past than it would've been for someone like Robin Hood. If the writers had committed to giving Regina a sister earlier in the show instead of retconning Zelena in later, I think it would've been a really good idea. They just needed to work the story around it and throw in some foreshadowing. Because they didn't do that, Zelena felt very tacked on. Of course, I also think Zelena needed to be a different fairy tale character and not the Wicked Witch of the West. Any ideas on any famous characters that would've fit her better?

I guess Belle and Rumple were realistic as a textbook example of an abusive relationship? Of course, a tyrannical mass murdering dictator becoming a hero without as much as an apology is "gray" and "complex" and would totally happen. I actually thought Camelot was one of the more grounded arcs in EF because characters like Arthur acted like you'd think they would. There were magical shenanigans going on but the character motivations (when characters weren't mind controlled) made sense.

OUATIW worked well in (mosty) purely magical settings, but it wasn't meant to be especially complex, much less realistic. However, the characters were pretty relatable and the writing was tight.

They did a really good job in S1 of balancing the happy fairy tales with a dose of realism thrown in there. I'm not sure what the secret sauce was, but Storybrooke felt more "adult" and there was a little bit of cynicism at times, but good seemed to win in the end... most of the time. It wasn't perfect. You had Graham's murder in that season, after all. But the show did a good job of doing cheesy fairy tale stuff while also dealing with grayer issues like child custody, infidelity, etc. I feel like you can keep the "hope/good always wins" without dumbing down the show. You can have complex issues without going super edgy. Its just that they would make grayer issues like killing in self defense so black and white. It was either super dark and edgy or disingenuously light.

And every Once actor they can get making an appearance... but mostly Lana.

Knowing A&E, there's going to be at least one episode that ties into the Once universe somehow. There will probably be numerous references like they did with Lost.

She became such an empty husk in later seasons. Her working with the heroes should've been interesting (as it was in 3A), but it was always really boring. She was just kind of there because she was reluctantly on the side of the angels, not because she was invested in what they were doing. Her motivations were poor and uncompelling. Sometimes they didn't even make sense. Like, I really don't think she would've cared enough about Emma to go to Camelot or about Hook to go to the Underworld. If anything, I feel like she would've stayed behind to keep Storybrooke under control. She was just there because she had to be. She had a stronger motivation in S6 since the villain was literally herself, but she was super passive about it until the Page 23 episode. She just did good things because "that's what a hero does", not out of any real conviction. If being a hero went out of vogue she would've realistically ditched it. Camelot had a lot of intriguing moving parts in it, like the whole Guinevere/Lancelot/Arthur drama, Nimue/Merlin, etc. But there just wasn't enough time invested into it. The Dark One mythology was really cool, but Dark Swan was doomed to fail on arrival. Like every other arc on this show, the writers were trying to do too much with too little time. In addition to the Camelot stuff, you had the Storybrooke stuff and Merida's two episodes. What's crazy is that the writers were given a whole extra episode and yet it still felt like a big chunk of story was missing. Ironically, Zelena was one of the best parts of 5A and she had pretty much nothing to do with it.

Regina's acts in S1 alone make her pretty irredeemable (attempting to kill a newborn comes to mind), but I think a lot of viewers would've given her character a pass if the redemption took longer and the other characters didn't immediately start giving her a benefit of a doubt. It doesn't help her redemption arc began in S2 and it had a lot to do with why 2B got people to stop watching altogether. It makes Regina's better material in later seasons, as scattered as it may be, less watchable because of the bad taste left in everybody's mouth from 2B. Regina had some good moments but it was always an uphill climb to get there. (And a lot of falling down again.) I think what bothers me the most is not Regina herself most of the time but how the other characters acted. Nobody asking about Graham, Charming not standing up for Snow, Henry suddenly loving Regina for no reason, and zero dispute over custody of Henry. Its like most of S1 didn't happen. All the adults stop acting like adults, and Henry becomes practically inhuman. Thats probably my biggest gripe with the show in retrospect: all the characters stopped acting like real people and became caricatures. Its wasbt even just around Regina, but in general. I know it was supposed to be fairy tales, but wasn't the gimmick that it was fairy tales mixed with real life? The characters acted more realistic in even some of the quirkiest S1 flashbacks than they did later in the LWM.

She almost murdered her own sister, but didn't. In the same episode she got her heroic send-off. Only on this show.

This post pretty much nails on the head why I don't really like Emma after 2A. She's really engaging in the first season when she's choosing to stay in Storybrooke for Henry's sake, taking the fight to Regina because she wants to, and investigating crimes because she's invested. (Not because those crimes happened to her.) She has a lot of agency in S1 and she's highly motivated. That makes for a captivating character. I don't find her very interesting in later seasons because she just reacts to whatever is going on most of the time. She doesn't choose to do something unless her hand is forced. (aka she's the "Savior" and must do everything out of obligation) The writers just made her so depressing and the antithesis of the person she as in S1 in that instead of pushing back at life, she just takes what's given to her. Her big lesson is that you can't escape fate no matter how hard you try and that is not empowering nor hopeful.

Something similar could be said of Captain Swan in S6 of OUAT. Honestly, if something like Swan Queen were canon, A&E would probably write it terribly. Fans are more than capable of writing fic that is better than whatever could've gotten written into the show.

I'm pretty sure Emma's look in 3x21/22 was based on Odette, which I find interesting. While I believe she always represented the ugly ducking that turned into a swan, she never really fit the "swan princess" the costume designers could've been alluding to. I'm actually surprised the show never did a take on Swan Lake.

I remember Lost getting this way in S3 when the episode count was high and the amount of story they needed to cover was low. There were several character flashbacks in S3 that added little information or thematic significance. There was even time for the Nikki/Paolo episode. While OUAT similarly kept spinning its wheels, it took itself very seriously and acted like every minor revelation was a big shocking twist. There were many retcons because the writers didn't think the episode stories were interesting enough. Even the most filler-y stuff was sort of glossed over in favor of reminding the audience something TERRIBLE was going to happen in the main plot. There was just never any breathing room. I wish there were more scenes with the characters sitting around a campfire having a casual conversation.

I don't think it will get lost in a sea of mediocre content as it would on Netflix. It won't be very hard to find, letting more people enjoy it. The clickbait-y title to the article I posted made me think A&E were doing another spin-off series. If they were, doing it as a Disney+ exclusive would be a no-brainer.

‘Once Upon A Time’ Spin-Off Series Coming Soon to Disney+ This should've happened a long time ago. I'm glad to see OAUTIW get a little more exposure.

She seemed oddly opposed in 2x16 to killing the several people in line for the throne. Cora seemed to be someone who liked controlling from behind the scenes, but got more murderous over time. Its weird that the writers wanted her to rip so many hearts out that she literally became the Queen of Hearts, but they also wanted her to be a conniving social climber who operated mostly through manipulation. Murder is used way too often in this show to indicate how evil someone is. I really do think the writers did Cora's village massacre to show to the audience she was even worse than Regina. (At the time, anyway. Regina got her own slaughter later.) I'm personally not a big fan of killing a large number of redshirts to up the stakes. Cora could've worked as a more covert evil, only revealing her true nature to individuals who were directly in her way. Unlike Regina, she knew how to entice people and not act like a raging monster all the time. See her episode in OUATIW, for example. I prefer the idea that she only murdered when necessary because murdering someone could make for one less potential pawn. Killing Daniel made sense because he wouldn't be much use to her as a lowly stable boy and he was a distraction for Regina. It was very intentional and calculated, unlike killing a groom on his wedding day or a random jester.

Man, those episodes really are random. "An Apple Red as Blood" and "Good Form" are both great episodes, but they mean so much less out of context. The first one is built up across most of S1 and sets off the climax, and the second is payoff for Hook (and the Captain Swan ship). It's a shame they had to throw the garbage that is "Mother's Little Helper" after those two. For someone just jumping in to watch an episode or two, I'd pick one of the mid-arc stories like "True North."

Cora's death is so strange to me in retrospect. I don't understand why they slotted it in the middle of the season unless they were just as so enamored with Snow going "dark" they just had to do it right away. I sort of doubt A&E were just itching to get to the Home Office and all of the other crap in 2B. It may have been more the fact they were bored than excited to move onto other things. The way S2 was written, it seemed like Cora would get drunk on power from the Dagger and Regina would betray her at the last minute, like Zelena did to Hades in 5B. (Which would've ended up being a good parallel later.) Cora was definitely overpowered and needed to be stopped, but she was always more fascinated with control than random murders. She only seemed to kill people when they were in the way. I don't even remember her really hating Snow. It should've culminated with Regina seeing more and more of herself in Cora, and realizing nothing would ever be enough, whether Cora actually loved her or not. Again, it would be very similar to what happened with Zelena and Hades, just much slower.

I'm glad the contract with Netflix finally ran out. Adding Once Upon a Time to Disney+ seemed like a no-brainer.

Ivy sort of explained that Regina's brain needed a little "push" before the elixir would work, iirc. Regina needed to be susceptible to the idea, hence the photo.

I recall Regina doing a little (emphasizing little) to get Henry's attention during that whole period when Emma wasn't allowed to see him without permission. She gave him a handheld video game console and ice cream. That didn't seem to go on for very long. That was very much in the heat of things when she had already revealed how abusive and terrible of a mother she was. I feel like the writers thought she was some kind of mastermind, but she was a horrible manipulator. She only got as far as she did because all the cards were in her favor and Rumple constantly saved her ass. Her reliance on magic was the only thing keeping her on top.

Alice and Robyn felt a lot more organic than anything the writers ever gave Mulan. I'm not sure how anyone could be proud of a character who never actually got to do anything with their romantic interests. If anything, Mulan's character implies bisexual people can't be in romantic relationships. Then you've got Red on the other side who, after a long time of not pursuing anyone, falls head over heels for a girl she just met. What was great about Alice and Robyn, at least in present day, was that while they weren't necessarily looking for partners, they still found each other and the romance grew over time. Having an LGBT character in the late 2010s wasn't compelling or progressive on its own, but it needed to be coupled with a good story and character writing. A&E just loved patting themselves on the back for imagery or ideas and not actual good execution.

I always knew Zelena's pendant was going to relate to her coming back. It was foreshadowed by Glinda ("in many ways, it is your life now") and seemed like it was tucked a way for a reason. It probably should've been activated toward the end of S4 or the beginning of S5 under different circumstances. Like the heroes needing Zelena out of desperation (with an anti-magic handcuff ready, of course) or someone like Rumple resurrecting her for something. There were many creative ways her life force could've been drawn out of the pendant. I don't think I really considered her a hero until her centric toward the end of S6, but I can give that a pass because it was under the assumption the show was about to end and the writers wanted to wrap up her redemption arc. S7's time jump was a bit of saving grace for both her and Regina because they had time to become actual "heroes." For the most part, I liked Zelena either being gray (as in S5) or at least reluctantly on the side of the angels. She wasn't about moral complexes or concerned about being a "hero". That made her more human and less flat like the other characters. Unfortunately, the road to get to that point was rough and happened late in the game. That's one of my biggest problems with the show - I wish the characters were more human and didn't do things purely based on whether they were on the side of good or evil. Not everybody needs to switch between being a murderous psychopath or Joan of Arc. People are more complex than that.

That's an interesting combo. For fun: what would be the weirdest cast combos for cons?

I completely forgot about that. That seems like it should be an important plot detail.