Paige: The Private Investigator

[sistermagpie]

I was thinking about this re: the discussion in the Elizabeth thread and sometimes I do almost wish the show was able to hit this a bit harder at the end of Paige's storyline how much Elizabeth was in denial about everything she wanted to see in Paige. Both in terms of her competence as a spy and her becoming Russian--all the things she and Elizabeth keep insisting she "gets" when she doesn't. 

I think it's definitely there--that last fight Elizabeth and Paige have is literally all about how Paige has always been seeing (or trying to see) everything Elizabeth says and does in the context of something any other politically-aware suburban American-raised Mom in 1987 would do if they were brave and committed enough and Elizabeth has been telling herself that if Paige *did* know all the stuff she was really up to she'd understand how necessary it was because the motherland is under attack again and we've been through so much worse than this already!

But I wish there was a way to have brought it in a little more into focus without hitting us over the head with it too much. Maybe again I'm being influenced by the few things I heard the showrunners saying in publicity during the season where they always acted as if Paige the loyal and competent Russian spy was a thing that was possible and was happening or a source of strength or something. Compared to the story happening on the show which was a bit more subtle--you had to look at what *wasn't* there. Really look at Paige's reactions themselves--what questions she asks, how enthusiastic she is, when and how she describes (or can't describe) her own motivations.

Also when she actually does things that she does like. I said in the other thread how Philip asks both Paige and Elizabeth to actually think about things for themselves and think about what they're doing and why, and if you look at things that Paige actually proactively does during the season that aren't about Elizabeth you can see the truth person there a bit.  There's no big scene where Paige explicitly says how wrong all this is.

That is, she likes Brian and sleeps with him and she fights with the guys in the bar. With the former, I spent the season looking at it through an Elizabeth lens which was like my own, having watched the show. But after the fight in the kitchen I realized I should probably revise my thinking on it with the premise that Paige *doesn't* think honeytrapping is a thing a decent person would do. So when she talks about Brian's access or stares unhappily at his intern badge, she's not thinking about using him to get information, she's thinking about how his access to info conflicts with their relationship. It brings in the secret and inspires troubling thoughts about how obviously effective sexual relationships would be for spies. She's still unhappy about the same stuff as in S5--she can't have real relationships because her secret life makes it impossible. She wants the romance. "Making a difference" actually isn't her priority. She might still want to do it, but when she's with Brian it's the relationship that's the thing she's doing on her own, not any potential honey-trapping. That's the thing she tells herself will happen--nothing about how it's all worth it or the world must change.

Likewise with the fight, she's angry. Not really at the guys--the one guy was an ass, but the other guy was fine. She was still angry the next day and wanted to spar about that. But I think her anger was really more about the life she was living. Like she yells at Elizabeth for trying to run her life even when she's not "working" but it seems like it's not really about Elizabeth being controlling in other areas of her life. It's more that all this stuff Paige claims to be doing willingly is actually taking away her life. 

Here maybe I'm just projecting, but it's hard to imagine how a person wouldn't at least unconsciously feel erased doing what Paige is doing, spending time with people who are openly telling her she would be better if she was a completely different person, who don't value any of the things she actually is or experienced. The show doesn't explicitly say this but it does seem to be saying that Paige is, underneath, very angry at *something* and it's not channeled into her work. It really all seems to go back to her mother. Maybe that's another layer to the sparring scene with Philip where she's helpless. 

[sistermagpie]

Quote

Yes, an apartment and college her parents are paying for.  SO "independent!"  Honestly I can't stand her, no wonder most of the time she was on screen, far too often by the way, it took me completely out of the show and into criticism.  Oddly enough, in interviews, the actress was so much like Paige.  She actually did say "I'm going to be a spy!  That's SO COOL!" in response to a reporter's question.  It's so close to "I'm into it" with her dad.

This makes me wonder how much the actress was aware of Paige's shortcomings as a spy. On one hand I guess it doesn't matter since Paige herself was obviously unaware. There's probably an argument that it's good for HT to think she's playing somebody who's a completely competent young spy--just like Elizabeth--who's just also too smart and independent to put up with their lies. That did seem to be the way she was talked about in interviews.

But then I remember Alison Wright apparently having all these detailed notes at all times about exactly what Martha knew or admitted she knew to herself in what moment and how one of the limitations that sometimes seemed to bring down the Paige scenes was that she always seemed to be just playing exactly what was on the page in an obvious way. I have no idea if anyone would have felt any need to detail the character's misconceptions of herself. When she says "I get it" did HT think Paige was speaking the truth and it just came out as shallow because she couldn't put any more weight behind it than Paige could? Did she think both she and Paige were pulling off the spy poses and that any mistakes were unimportant? Did she think Paige was truly understanding in the Russia culture stuff?

I just mean that I don't really see the actress much *playing* a person in total ignorance of their skill level or understanding of things. It may have come across differently if she did know that and was playing a subtext that came through. A lot of actors on the show have done a lot with that sort of thing.

Edited July 4, 2018 by sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

A while back--I can't remember what thread it was one--but I do remembering vociferously arguing that Paige was absolutely 19 in S6. Today I realized hey, I was totally wrong. I can't remember who all was in that discussion--@Umbelina was one I know, but I was totally wrong! When I realized it today out of nowhere I really wanted to jump up and leave the Pilates class I was in to announce that I was Wrong on the Internet, but managed to finish the teasers.

Anyway, I realized that I was basing my rock solid logic on I think two things that was simply remembering wrong--especially one thing that I thought happened in S2 (and still feel like it did even though reality tells me otherwise). Had those two things been true I would have been right but alas, they are not. So Paige was born at the end of 1967, making her 20 by the end of the show.

My bad! I hate thinking I might have led someone astray even about something as unimportant as the age of a fictional person on TV. But it bugs me that I did it!

[Umbelina]

Ha. 

You are so cute.

19 or 20 didn't really matter, either way she was an idiot, and incredibly immature.  I still find it so hard to believe she never read newspapers anymore, and didn't do much research about the KGB or USSR (except to look up honeypotting.)

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

19 or 20 didn't really matter, either way she was an idiot, and incredibly immature.  I still find it so hard to believe she never read newspapers anymore, and didn't do much research about the KGB or USSR (except to look up honeypotting.)

LOL. Yes, I almost added that. Either way she was far old enough to be approaching this better. It's still so bizarre to think about even now--who reads a book about the KGB, especially while you have decided to commit treason against the only country you have ever known because of them, and comes away with...discomfort over the idea that maybe some of these people might have slept with someone without actually liking them!!

Makes me imagine Paige writing a senior thesis at GU where she combs through historical atrocities and tragedies to reveal the distasteful sexual peccadillos underneath!

[Umbelina]

Such a stupid character, I never believed her, well, not never.

The only times I did were:

• In that bar scene where she was trolling for guys (and maybe even the other bar scene when she picked a physical fight.)  Show offy brat.
• Once or twice when she was doing ANGRY, because her over the top acting sometimes worked when she was supposed to be over the top.
• I liked her in the store with Philip, Mathew really seemed to bring out the best in her scenes.

It wasn't just the acting though, it was the writing.  Oh please guys.  Yes, I was somewhat precocious, but I was more mature than her at 14 than she'd achieved by 20.  She was a spoiled rotten little brat, and used as a plot device far to often to ever be believable. 

My favorite Paige scene EVER:

Edited August 15, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Quote

Elizabeth and the KGB removed ALL options from Paige the moment they decided to groom, recruit, trap, seduce, blackmail, and coerce her.

A story about how Paige has no other options needs to be about her having no options. We need to see the KGB and Elizabeth stepping in where Paige herself is going another way. If we're not actually seeing her being blackmailed or seduced or coerced (and why avoid it if that's the real story all this time?) then we need to see those options being discussed as a threat.

Instead, we see Paige built from the ground up as a character who has a psychology that would lead her to make this choice in response to her situation. If the point is that a character won't have a choice you don't introduce her as somebody who throws herself into a group with a leader that resembles Elizabeth and her Cause and then have her reject him when Elizabeth offers stronger assurances of security and power. You don't have her openly wishing for somebody to tell her she belongs somewhere, you have her belonging somewhere else. You don't have her dismissing healthier suggestions herself, you have Elizabeth take them away or sabotage them. (Her needing to spy on Pastor Tim takes away the comfort Paige's relationship with Pastor Tim once brought, but she could still have followed his teachings. She dismisses him herself. Her faith simply wasn't sustainable in tougher times on its own. It was an immature faith--just as her faith in the KGB is immature.)

If Paige has no choice then the sixth season would have led to Paige seeing her choice was an illusion, which would probably also be a huge thing for Elizabeth too. Instead everybody acts as if she has a choice and never come up against any disagreement on this ever. Philip says he thinks she's doing the wrong thing. Paige claims she's "different" (i.e., better/stronger) than Philip so this choice is right for her. Elizabeth says maybe Philip's right that Paige can't do this. Philip says she shouldn't do it. Elizabeth sure seems, in Harvest, to be reassuring herself that Paige is truly on board when she tells her she needs to be sure of her choice. Paige's explanations of her choice in that same scene are self-destructive (everything she says she's afraid of she's making worse with her choice) but they're coming from her.  When Elizabeth gets nervous about Paige's inadequacies it's in a personal context rather than a conflict with the KGB.

Meanwhile, nothing about Paige not being able to leave, no KGB talks about what might happen if she does, no scenes of Paige trying to leave or even considering leaving until she seems to definitively say "fuck this" and walk out with no repercussions or fear of them whatsoever. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

On 10/30/2018 at 2:05 PM, Umbelina said:

Ha!

I'd love to know what you honestly think an aggressive recruitment is!

Paige was the victim of a full court press here.  The very "CENTER" of the KGB was in on it.  Gabe was in on it.  Claudia was in on it.  Elizabeth was in on it.  They were ALL "aggressive."

Psychological and emotional pressure were used, and even a sort of blackmail and entrapment were used in the "if you tell anyone we will go to jail."  Love was held out, respect was another motivator, indoctrination happened as well as exaggerated lies about how awful the USA was.  "THEY ARE POISONING OUR WHEAT, TRYING TO STARVE US TO DEATH!"  By the way, that was not corrected when they found out it was bullshit.  Neither was the story about saving the world from biological weapons, when they both realized the weapons they stole were used on civilians and resisters in Afghanistan. 

Paige's recruitment was, if anything, just as bad as Martha's or Kimmy's, or any number of other used and abused recruits of theirs.  The difference for the others was theirs eventually would end, but for Paige, the only way out was to have her parents imprisoned.   I'd argue Paige's was worse and even more aggressive.  They also used guilt and forced Paige to spy on and report back about the Pastors FOR YEARS, which completely broke her spirit.   That essentially isolated her from support, all she now had was her parents, what other options did Paige have but to join?  None.  She couldn't even be honest with her brother, let alone friends, or people she's always enjoyed at the church.

This was a full court press by the KGB, it doesn't get more "aggressive" than that. 

Oh, and while Elizabeth may have been too brainwashed to realize it?  Claudia certainly would have had crystal clear motivation in making sure Paige was included in operations that could lead to her arrest for treason, espionage, accessory to murder, robberies, and all the rest.  That was deliberate, and a tried and true aggressive technique.  Involve them in facing criminal charges themselves, just to be sure they had NO options.

You say there was no "evidence" of Claudia or Elizabeth entrapping her.  Hogwash, that's exactly what you do when "aggressively recruiting" an important agent, and Paige was the agent the KGB wanted more than any other.  Elizabeth could have been that idiotic and naive, but there is no way Claudia was, this was the most important operation of Claudia's career, and she would not fail it, the KGB sent her back to ensure it did not fail.

On 10/30/2018 at 10:08 PM, Umbelina said:

Just no.

Elizabeth and the KGB removed ALL options from Paige the moment they decided to groom, recruit, trap, seduce, blackmail, and coerce her.

The only chance she had was Elizabeth, for once in her life, agreeing with Philip, or at least listening to him, and defecting.  Mommie  dearest wouldn't even consider it. At that moment, Paige had all choices completely taken from her.  That is the very definition of a perfect recruitment. 

Aside from that?  As I detailed above, the hit every button on the recruitment playbook, including money, except for sexual seduction.  This was a full on, no holds barred, nail that second generation spy at all costs operation.  There was nothing, even remotely, "gentle" about any of it. 

Quoted myself because I don't want to retype all of that, but I will bold the standard spy recruitment techniques used with Paige.  This was, beyond doubt, a full on recruitment.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recruitment_of_spies

The document then provides case studies which showed how “financial consideration/greed”, “exploitation of American naivete”, “blackmail/hostage situation”, “appeal to national pride”, “exploitation of emotional involvement”, “ideology”, “revenge/disaffection with job”, and “false flag approaches” were all used successfully in the recruitment of assets, sources of information, by the hostile intelligence organizations. https://news.clearancejobs.com/2017/08/07/russia-spies-recruit-american-assets/ 

Please tell me which of the above were not used with Paige, including false flag during the early stages, before Paige was told who they really were, when Elizabeth was already grooming Paige, telling her about Gregory, going to church with her, suddenly becoming the mother Paige had always wanted.

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

No, Paige did have third option, besides informing on her parents and becoming a wannabe spy. She could have kept silent about her parents and led her own life faraway, f.ex. studying in California. If she had been forced, she simply could have failed all tests which had shown that she hasn't abilities (which would be true).

It was Paige herself who asked Elizabeth to teach her self-defence after they were attacked in the park area - that was the decisive turning point, and the muggers were hardly Russians who wanted help Paige's recruitment!

How?  She was a minor without skills, and without money.  Paige asked for self defense stuff and wanted to join because she HAD NO OTHER OPTIONS, and suddenly she had her mother's full attention, and idiot Paige not only craved that, she craved the truth.  Elizabeth pretended to give her that too.  The KGB, from the very top, wanted Paige more than they wanted Philip.  You honestly think they would let a spoiled American teenager just run off to California? Come on.

Much like an abuser, Elizabeth removed all other options for Paige to have honesty of any kind in her life.  It was mom or nothing.

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

The way Stan recruited Nina is a good example of an aggressive recruiment.

Nina was a fully trained KGB officer, so Stan used blackmail, and then bribery.  Nina was also a double agent, the trickiest of all to handle.

Both blackmail and bribery were used with Paige as well, but add in a whole bunch of other tried and true agent recruitment techniques.

[Umbelina]

On 10/31/2018 at 10:19 AM, sistermagpie said:

Meanwhile, nothing about Paige not being able to leave, no KGB talks about what might happen if she does, no scenes of Paige trying to leave or even considering leaving until she seems to definitively say "fuck this" and walk out with no repercussions or fear of them whatsoever. 

Yes, a failure and a cop out of the writing, as far as repercussions, which, as you know, I fully expect Paige to face.  She will be grilled by the FBI, and she's an idiot who will not only spill her guts, implicate Stan, implicate herself for charges of espionage and accessory to several crimes including two murders.  She's likely to spend her life in jail.  She has no money, and I don't even know if she's smart enough to request a public defender before questioning.  Probably not.

The operation was blown when Paige's parents were exposed as spies, Paige would never be useful to the KGB after that.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You say there was no "evidence" of Claudia or Elizabeth entrapping her.  Hogwash, that's exactly what you do when "aggressively recruiting" an important agent, and Paige was the agent the KGB wanted more than any other.  Elizabeth could have been that idiotic and naive, but there is no way Claudia was, this was the most important operation of Claudia's career, and she would not fail it, the KGB sent her back to ensure it did not fail.

I'm saying there's no storyline on the show about Paige not being able to not be doing this work if she did not choose to do so. I do see all the ways that the idea becomes more and more attractive to Paige and I do see Elizabeth wanting her to be a spy and having influence. That was the whole story. The characters all talk about the situation as a choice Paige is making. We didn't see Paige choose her college as a senior but I wouldn't be surprised if Philip tried to encourage her to go to school farther away too. (Re: Claudia, to me she doesn't seem to be acting like Paige is the most important thing going on in her professional life in the Fall of '87, much less her whole career. I don't remember anything about her being sent back for Paige--Gabriel was sent back to push Philip and Elizabeth to reveal themselves. Claudia was working as a handler like always.)

The Paige storyline was always written as being about Elizabeth's personal desperation for Paige to be like her and Paige's personal desperation to find a guiding authority for her life (much to Philip's disappointment). I can't remember a single scene where anyone is motivated by or talks about the idea that Paige must do this work at all. On the contrary, there's tons of scenes where people refer to the exact opposite and behave in ways that make little sense or are robbed of meaning if that's what's going on. 

8 hours ago, Umbelina said:

The operation was blown when Paige's parents were exposed as spies, Paige would never be useful to the KGB after that.

But the writers knew that was going to happen. It's not like they saved up all the scenes they planned about Paige not being able to choose something else or quit for the next season and got cut off when Philip and Elizabeth were unexpectedly identified in 6x10 and had to run. The reality of the show is made up of the things the characters do and say onscreen. That wasn't part of it.

Edited November 2, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I can't look at this show and leave all known spy information out of it and just look at it as the Elizabeth Paige show.

They used every technique on Paige except sexual seduction.

You involve potential spies in illegal operations as an additional way to ensure their cooperation.  That did happen.  Period.  Claudia's been recruiting spies as long as Elizabeth has been alive.  She's not an idiot, and she didn't care about Paige at all, except as a spy.  This isn't rocket science here.  It's what spies do.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I can't look at this show and leave all known spy information out of it and just look at it as the Elizabeth Paige show.

 

But we have to do that to an extent. If outside information conflicts with what the characters on the show are saying and how they're acting and what the writers are focusing on then it doesn't apply to the story.

Philip, Elizabeth and Paige all explicitly reference Paige choosing to work for the KGB or not. There's lots of scenes showing how Paige comes to make this choice, things that happen that push her further in that direction, scenes where characters defend, encourage, approve of, disapprove of or criticize her choice and that's pretty much it on screen.

[Umbelina]

35 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But we have to do that to an extent. If outside information conflicts with what the characters on the show are saying and how they're acting and what the writers are focusing on then it doesn't apply to the story.

Philip, Elizabeth and Paige all explicitly reference Paige choosing to work for the KGB or not. There's lots of scenes showing how Paige comes to make this choice, things that happen that push her further in that direction, scenes where characters defend, encourage, approve of, disapprove of or criticize her choice and that's pretty much it on screen.

We disagree. 

I can see how you might think that, but there is no chance I would ever think that way.  The show was based on spying, and as Pastor Tim once said?  "I know what spies do."

Philip was against it completely, but he was overruled, and Elizabeth was 100% in, as well as practically salivating at the idea of Paige being her mini me.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip was against it completely, but he was overruled, and Elizabeth was 100% in, as well as practically salivating at the idea of Paige being her mini me.

But leaving aside the themes of the narrative and them never choosing to use this for conflict,  Elizabeth the character can salivate over the idea without fearing or knowing Paige will be coerced if she's not interested. That gives her even more reason to press on herself. Elizabeth salivating over the idea is there on the screen--it's been central to her character from the beginning and explains a lot of her behavior in S6, like her denying the meaning of Paige's mistakes and all the rest. But if Philip's been overruled to the point of Paige simply enslaved, why is he so openly trying to get her to reject the idea like this is something she's doing instead of viewing her more like the Martha she is?

Edited November 2, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But leaving aside the themes of the narrative and them never choosing to use this for conflict,  Elizabeth the character can salivate over the idea without fearing or knowing Paige will be coerced if she's not interested. That gives her even more reason to press on herself. Elizabeth salivating over the idea is there on the screen--it's been central to her character from the beginning and explains a lot of her behavior in S6, like her denying the meaning of Paige's mistakes and all the rest. But if Philip's been overruled to the point of Paige simply enslaved, why is he so openly trying to get her to reject the idea like this is something she's doing instead of viewing her more like the Martha she is?

Honestly, you saying Paige wasn't coerced is just beyond my comprehensive.  Her other options were GONE.  She was emotionally and physically coerced from the moment Elizabeth started salivating, which was pretty early in, and well before Paige was even told they were Russian spies.  Don't take my word for it, Philip saw it, and fought with her about it, and she reported back to Gabriel about how she was trapping Paige, grooming her.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, you saying Paige wasn't coerced is just beyond my comprehensive.  Her other options were GONE.  She was emotionally and physically coerced from the moment Elizabeth started salivating, which was pretty early in, and well before Paige was even told they were Russian spies.  Don't take my word for it, Philip saw it, and fought with her about it, and she reported back to Gabriel about how she was trapping Paige, grooming her.

I don't understand what you mean in a practical sense by saying she had no options. She could do exactly what she was doing--going to school at GW, living with a roommate off-campus, picking up guys--and not work for the KGB. Hang out with Brian instead of making stew with Claudia and Mom. *Don't* apply for an internship at the state department. Go to school in Ohio or something. That seems to be what Paige says she should have done in Jennings, Elizabeth. Womp-womp, Elizabeth. 

[Umbelina]

56 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't understand what you mean in a practical sense by saying she had no options. She could do exactly what she was doing--going to school at GW, living with a roommate off-campus, picking up guys--and not work for the KGB. Hang out with Brian instead of making stew with Claudia and Mom. *Don't* apply for an internship at the state department. Go to school in Ohio or something. That seems to be what Paige says she should have done in Jennings, Elizabeth. Womp-womp, Elizabeth. 

Sure.

Lovely bridge in San Francisco to sell you too.  Paige was their top priority.  They would have done much worse to Paige had she been reluctant and had Elizabeth balked instead of gleefully grooming her. 

Honestly, they already WERE assuring that, by involving her in crimes that could imprison her for life.  The KGB cared more about Paige than her parents, she was that important to them.  So, threatening or killing one or both of them, and then threatening to kill or coerce Henry to spy would not be out of the question.

I think you are thinking of the KGB as needing to coddle Paige.  They would prefer it that way, with the enthusiastic assistance of a top spy, Elizabeth, but they also had other tried and true options to force her.

 

There is NO WAY the KGB would allow that.  None. 

ETA, they wouldn't even have to kill Philip or Elizabeth, just disappear them and say they did, or hold out their well being as a carrot.  They also could threaten the Pastors or their baby, along with Henry.

The KGB wanted their second generation spy, and one way or another, they would have her, or her brother.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Lovely bridge in San Francisco to sell you too.  Paige was their top priority.  They would have done much worse to Paige had she been reluctant and had Elizabeth balked instead of gleefully grooming her. 

Since we don't have the KGB on screen telling us either way we don't know what their top priority is back in Moscow. 

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Honestly, they already WERE assuring that, by involving her in crimes that could imprison her for life.  The KGB cared more about Paige than her parents, she was that important to them.  So, threatening or killing one or both of them, and then threatening to kill or coerce Henry to spy would not be out of the question.

Threats and murder are never out of the question, but they're not doing it that we see and the characters aren't motivated by fear of it. Paige isn't reluctant in S6 but she is very bad at this while mouthing off to the only person she's much answering to--she's practically already foiling all their plans without even intending to or realizing it. If the KGB started putting her, her parents or Henry under threat I can't imagine it not blowing up in their faces. The whole point of the 2nd Gen program is that the kids will be genetically loyal to the the motherland because of their parents. On the show Paige costs the KGB very little and could potentially give great returns. Here they're greatly increasing the cost and risk to themselves for very little returns. Now they're just threatening a US college student with no talent for espionage and no love for the USSR or the KGB and friends in FBI Counterintelligence.

Paige is not a second generation spy in this scenario. She's just a terrorized American girl with no useful contacts who can't memorize a name even when she's "into it."

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Since we don't have the KGB on screen telling us either way we don't know what their top priority is back in Moscow. 

Threats and murder are never out of the question, but they're not doing it that we see and the characters aren't motivated by fear of it. Paige isn't reluctant in S6 but she is very bad at this while mouthing off to the only person she's much answering to--she's practically already foiling all their plans without even intending to or realizing it. If the KGB started putting her, her parents or Henry under threat I can't imagine it not blowing up in their faces. The whole point of the 2nd Gen program is that the kids will be genetically loyal to the the motherland because of their parents. On the show Paige costs the KGB very little and could potentially give great returns. Here they're greatly increasing the cost and risk to themselves for very little returns. Now they're just threatening a US college student with no talent for espionage and no love for the USSR or the KGB and friends in FBI Counterintelligence.

Paige is not a second generation spy in this scenario. She's just a terrorized American girl with no useful contacts who can't memorize a name even when she's "into it."

No, the whole idea didn't require loyalty to the USSR at all.  Would they prefer that?  Maybe. 

All it REQUIRED was someone born in the USA, from an passable background doing as told.

Yes, the KGB was certainly more than capable of threatening loved ones, or killing them, to keep someone in line.  Since Elizabeth has falsified reports on Paige, they have no way of knowing she's an idiot.  However, an idiot can still be useful, and they could arrange for other training.  Frankly, almost anyone would do a better job than Elizabeth has anyway.

The show tells us over and over and over and over again how very important having second generation spies is to them.  They were determined.  Knowing their other techniques is not "out there" in any way.  The KGB isn't some cuddly organization that would just say "Oh, Paige ran away, pity that, let's scrap the whole program." 

Also, since it's TERRIBLY COMMON of them to also entrap someone in such a way that if they reveal themselves they would go to jail or be executed, I'm not going to overlook that Granny made sure Paige had done that.  Elizabeth may have been buying Granny's act, but she revealed herself at the end with her dismissive "your American kids." 

Paige would clean up her act very quickly if lives she valued were threatened, she's stop being just a spoiled brat sassing mommy when she was answering to real KGB agents who didn't give a damn about her aside from where she could be useful.

It honestly amazes me that anyone could think the KGB would do anything else.

We had the whole Coup crap to mess that up some, but one way or another, Paige, or/and Henry would have become KGB.  It was inevitable from the moment Elizabeth refused to defect with Philip to protect the kids.

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

All it REQUIRED was someone born in the USA, from an passable background doing as told.

But that could be any American. The 2nd gens are supposed to be amenable to doing this because of their relationship to their parents. Paige is even having lessons that are supposed to make her more loyal to Russia as part of her identity. It's their in. If it doesn't make them amenable then they're no different than the gambler working for them because of his debts. Actually they're far less useful because at least the gambler is working for them because he likes the deal he's getting. Paige would just be somebody forced to work for the USSR because they killed or threatened people in her family. She'd be looking for ways to get out or betray them every minute.

The fact that Paige is also not cut out for the work makes her even less valuable. Another trainer would be more honest about how much she sucks but when somebody sucks the standard response is to drop them because they're a liability.

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Paige would clean up her act very quickly if lives she valued were threatened, she's stop being just a spoiled brat sassing mommy when she was answering to real KGB agents who didn't give a damn about her aside from where she could be useful.

Cleaning up her act could just as easily translate into her having a breakdown, failing to ever get good at anything (never get a useful job or useful boyfriend), getting caught, committing suicide or becoming otherwise self-destructive, recommitting herself to Christ and turning herself in or going to someone for help. Keeping in line an American citizen who hates the KGB and thinks they're evil is a lot harder than working with someone who's getting something out of it so why expend that kind of energy on someone who doesn't even bring anything valuable to the table?

 

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

It honestly amazes me that anyone could think the KGB would do anything else.

I think it because the KGB's actions lean in the exact opposite direction throughout the show where they work to keep actually useful sources at the least minimally happy by what they're doing and valuing the loyalty that brings. The few times they strongarm people instead in desperation it bites them in the ass.

Edited November 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But that could be any American. The 2nd gens are supposed to be amenable to doing this because of their relationship to their parents. Paige is even having lessons that are supposed to make her more loyal to Russia as part of her identity. It's their in. If it doesn't make them amenable then they're no different than the gambler working for them because of his debts. Actually they're far less useful because at least the gambler is working for them because he likes the deal he's getting. Paige would just be somebody forced to work for the USSR because they killed or threatened people in her family. She'd be looking for ways to get out or betray them every minute.

The fact that Paige is also not cut out for the work makes her even less valuable. Another trainer would be more honest about how much she sucks but when somebody sucks the standard response is to drop them because they're a liability.

Cleaning up her act could just as easily translate into her having a breakdown, failing to ever get good at anything (never get a useful job or useful boyfriend), getting caught, committing suicide or becoming otherwise self-destructive, recommitting herself to Christ and turning herself in or going to someone for help. Keeping in line an American citizen who hates the KGB and thinks they're evil is a lot harder than working with someone who's getting something out of it so why expend that kind of energy on someone who doesn't even bring anything valuable to the table?

 

I think it because the KGB's actions lean in the exact opposite direction throughout the show where they work to keep actually useful sources at the least minimally happy by what they're doing and valuing the loyalty that brings. The few times they strongarm people instead in desperation it bites them in the ass.

 

They wouldn't CARE if she broke down.  They might move on to Henry, had their parents not been caught.  They might just place her in an important position to simply plant bugs, or do other simple but valuable shit, like reporting back on sensitive information, or basic theft.  Martha wasn't trained, but she had a handler and was incredibly valuable to them.

They weren't giving up on this, and they had not exhausted their methods, at all.  Even limited Paige could manage basics with strong direction.  Of course they would prefer that her family connection made her sympathetic to their causes and goals, and had her parents not been caught, they could have also pursued that in other ways as well.

You honestly think that if she ran off to California the KGB would just say "Well, that's that then." and give up on a program that was important enough to side line Philip, an extremely valuable spy?

They obviously DID use regular Americans, the difference here is, as you say, hoping for loyalty via Elizabeth, but if that failed, you honestly think they would even consider letting her live if she failed or tried to quit?  She knows too much.

Again, the moment Elizabeth decided it was cool?  It was all over for Paige, no options at all that were good.

Edited November 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Quote

They wouldn't CARE if she broke down.

 

I'm not saying they would care about her that much personally, I'm saying that their plan is getting them nothing--or a lot worse than nothing--and they'd have good reason to know that.

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You honestly think that if she ran off to California the KGB would just say "Well, that's that then." and give up on a program that was important enough to side line Philip, an extremely valuable spy?

Yup. Especially since the show doesn't even say this is the reason they let Elizabeth's husband Philip mostly retire while working Kimmie.

 

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They obviously DID use regular Americans, the difference here is, as you say, hoping for loyalty via Elizabeth, but if that failed, you honestly think they would even consider letting her live if she failed or tried to quit?  She knows too much.

They used regular Americans in ways where we can see the logic (Martha being one obviously example). They didn't go up to people just because they were American and threaten to kill their family if they didn't commit treason for the KGB for as long as they can. They weighed cost and clear reward and dropped them when the balance was wrong. Killing Paige is a different matter. Killing her, at least in a situation where they could protect themselves against blowback, would be cost effective in ways a living, oppressed Paige (or her brother even more so) is not.

Edited November 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

From The Great Patriotic War thread...

Quote

Umbelina: The real pity is there was no follow up to that scene.  Did it influence Paige later in the series?  I'd like to think it did, but the show never bothered, since this became the Elizabeth and Paige story.  Is that even a part of the reason Paige got off the train, or had the fight about sex with her lying mother?  I would have loved something, anything, from Philip or Paige about that fight, sad that we never got it.

I would really have loved something there because it feels like of all the central family relationships the one with Paige and Philip is the least defined by the end. Elizabeth and Henry don't have a relationship, almost, but we have specific scenes that show how that in itself is a relationship. With Paige and Philip there are some scenes together in S6 but I'm not sure exactly where it winds up, particularly given that fight scene. 

In the beginning of S6 Paige seems to see Philip as at best no help in making her invincible and at worst a threat to her goal of becoming Elizabeth. The earlier scenes in season 6 are standard Paige/Philip--when she expresses vague insecurity, he says he believes in her ability to work through it without giving her a solution. She's disappointed and sighs and turns back to the clearer answers she's getting from someone else. When he challenges her she gets condescending and arrogant.

The fight scene is unique. It starts out with him doing the usual--he's going to try to give her gentle advice that she'll dismiss. In the past the only alternative to that was Philip getting angry and her rolling her eyes. Like when he scolded her for going off to find Aunt Helen (and she rolled her eyes and said she was entitled to extended family) or ripped up her Bible (and she gave him the silent treatment and resented him and he was apologetic). Here, he instead gives her a peek at the guy he also in who doesn't suffer fools well and knows how to handle this one. And he gets a new result--she can't dismiss him.

Yet if you missed this episode you'd never guess anything out of the ordinary happened between them. It's the last episode where we see Paige sparring with Mom or on the job as a spy, but she's asking Elizabeth to come along on the Harvest job.  I wish there was something that hinted at how Paige was seeing Philip differently or how on earth she wasn't. Was it a blow to her feeling of power? Did it make an impression on her that Philip went on the Harvest job?

When they show up at her apartment her first line puts Philip into the same box she always did in the past, as somebody who backs up Elizabeth against Paige. Did she understand that Elizabeth was telling her Philip also used sex or did she just think he tolerated Elizabeth doing it because he was always on Elizabeth's side? 

What about the revelation in the garage about the coup? Philip as usual gives all the credit to Elizabeth but he sure seems personally involved and Paige didn't know about it. Stan also seems to think Philip recently killed somebody--and he reveals that they kill people a lot and Philip and Elizabeth both lie about it. It seems like all of those things could go into Paige deciding she doesn't know either of her parents at all, that they're still two liars who only tell the truth to each other, so she can't go with them. But I wish there'd been moments to make that more clear.

I didn't want a lot more focus on Paige, but I feel like there could have been some moments, at least, to give a sense that something was changing there even if it didn't land on a specific thing yet. It just seems like the fight scene with Philip ought to represent some kind of change and it's surprising that it's not really played as one. Maybe I'm missing things but that's part of why I don't entirely feel like I got the Paige story. There's a lot I think I understand about her psychology but I feel like her story sort of wandered off in the end and me not being sure about her and Philip seems central to it. Without that fight scene I guess I'd just assume that Paige ultimately saw Philip failing her and being Elizabeth's lapdog or something, but the fight scene seems like it would change up that narrative. Plus it's just such an important relationship in a show about a family, it's surprising it's simply abandoned halfway through the last season. 

Like I've said, it seems to me like the intimacy Paige sees between her parents honestly appears to be the thing she really wants and that makes it seems like there ought to be some reckoning with Philip as well as Elizabeth.

Edited November 14, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Yes, all true, but I honestly thought you were also going to comment on the thing I just finally figured out about Elizabeth.  We all knew she was recreating her own relationship with her mother who never hesitated.  What I hadn't thought of until today was that Elizabeth also created the traitor/coward father by allowing Paige to talk to Philip that way, and feel those things about him.  Since Elizabeth was her primary motivator, I think it's logical to assume that Elizabeth, while she might not have encouraged Paige thinking and saying those things to him, she certainly never discouraged her from it either, or stood up for Philip.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

When they show up at her apartment her first line puts Philip into the same box she always did in the past, as somebody who backs up Elizabeth against Paige. Did she understand that Elizabeth was telling her Philip also used sex or did she just think he tolerated Elizabeth doing it because he was always on Elizabeth's side? 

Exactly, and who knows?  Philip didn't matter to these writers at the end, and I think they made a bad bad choice there.  There was plenty of time to include Philip in Paige's story, after all, it was a very short season and included a huge time jump.  I will never understand why they chose not to do that.  Ever.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

What about the revelation in the garage about the garage? Philip as usual gives all the credit to Elizabeth but he sure seems personally involved and Paige didn't know about it. Stan also seems to think Philip recently killed somebody--and he reveals that they kill people a lot and Philip and Elizabeth both lie about it. It seems like all of those things could go into Paige deciding she doesn't know either of her parents at all, that they're still two liars who only tell the truth to each other, so she can't go with them. But I wish there'd been moments to make that more clear.

I didn't want a lot more focus on Paige, but I feel like there could have been some moments, at least, to give a sense that something was changing there even if it didn't land on a specific thing yet. It just seems like the fight scene with Philip ought to represent some kind of change and it's surprising that it's not really played as one. Maybe I'm missing things but that's part of why I don't entirely feel like I got the Paige story. There's a lot I think I understand about her psychology but I feel like her story sort of wandered off in the end because and me not being sure about her and Philip seems central to it. Without that fight scene I guess I'd just assume that Paige ultimately saw Philip failing her and being Elizabeth's lapdog or something, but the fight scene seems like it would change up that narrative. Plus it's just such an important relationship in a show about a family, it's surprising it's simply abandoned halfway through the last season. 

It's not even about "more Paige" because God knows, there was too much Paige if anything, though at least they finally threw in the towel on the "super-Paige, brilliant, logical, Russian soul Paige," and just let the actress play to her strengths, spoiled, know it all, bratty who drags bars for guys easily because she's cute.  She was more believable as a character as a stumble bum fool that in any other season, and so she didn't bug me as much.

Anyway, it was less about "more Paige" to me than "better use of the character of Paige."  Interaction with her father was important, and all we got was brat or chastened after being proven incompetent with her fighting by her dad.  We didn't get a single scene, not even a moment, of any repercussions from that.  NOTHING.  Not even a look of fear/respect/embarrassment from her after that. 

I've said it before, but it's important to say again, with a more skillful actress, I think they would have known to include, at least an enigmatic look at Philip.  The writers had SO much talent on screen, and all of the other actors seemed to instinctively do that, make more out of their moments, think about what had happened already, etc.  With Holly, if it wasn't explicitly written, she didn't give it, and even when it was, it was clumsy in comparison to the real talent that surrounded her. 

It's not all Holly's fault, the writers SHOULD have written it, and it's another reason why the final season tips into the "fail" column for me.  My real interest was never Paige and Elizabeth.  It was the marriage, the family, and the spying, in that order. 

The marriage part would have been enriched so much with consideration of Paige's rudeness and idiocy regarding her dad, and also her mother not standing up for him, or permitting it at all.  We got zip.

The family being completely divided throughout the final season worked in some ways, but hurt in more.  "He's your problem."  Seriously?  Paige gets to talk to her dad like that?   Seriously?

The spying is a complete fail in the final season as well, for reasons I've already documented in other threads, but especially for that 'no answers' ending, and yes, that include's Paige's ending.  Facing imprisonment, poverty, being ostracized, homeless, no way to pay for school, undoubtedly about to implicate Stan, brother about to be put in foster care, all of it really.  Have another slug of vodka kid, you think your life was hard before?  Wake up and smell the real world.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Umbelina
"

[sistermagpie]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, all true, but I honestly thought you were also going to comment on the thing I just finally figured out about Elizabeth.  We all knew she was recreating her own relationship with her mother who never hesitated.  What I hadn't thought of until today was that Elizabeth also created the traitor/coward father by allowing Paige to talk to Philip that way, and feel those things about him.

Oh yes, absolutely--and thank you for reminding me you said that because yeah, that's very central. It's funny also when you think that Philip is like the opposite because not only is he not talking down Elizabeth to Paige even when he thinks she's being a bad influence but he's obviously actively trying to get her to have a better relationship with Henry. Back in S3 he was originally glad she was going to church with Paige until he realized she was assessing her rather than trying to support her on her own terms.

It reminds me how way back in the first season people speculated that Philip was abused growing up and that's why he saw Elizabeth's behavior as so normal--LOL! We don't see that being true but the one time he talks about his mother he does say she was tough with a shot of Elizabeth to drive home that she must remind him of her. Maybe just as Elizabeth wanted to recreate her own slavish devotion to her mother without an inadequate father Philip naturally recreated a mentality where he's a drone protecting the queen. He does challenge her, but he puts up with a lot of disrespect too. 

Elizabeth is sort of like Paige again in the way she's so angry at Philip for what she sees as his shortcomings in terms of supporting her and the cause, yet she's always trying to win the approval of the Centre, often in the forms of male father figures like Gabriel and Zhukov. (She's never as disrespectful of any other officer in good standing as she is to Claudia.)

It's impossible to miss how her dismissive attitude towards Philip in S6 spills over into how she talks to Paige, using him to basically personify a person not strong enough to do this. In scenes with Philip himself she dismisses him like a chattering housewife, uses sex to soften him up for Kimmie, tells him to take his emotional Forum bullshit and shove it up his ass, implies he's a failure as a person and accuses him of being a slut for sleeping with Kimmie. With Paige she suggests the "something" that "got lost" was obviously something in Philip and later uses him as an example of someone who just agreed to the spy life too young and it turned out he couldn't handle it--setting up Paige to either declare herself weak now or strong forever by wanting to be a spy.

(Also it's interesting that in the "got lost" scene iirc Elizabeth first says that Philip loves Paige and loves Elizabeth, but something just got lost." Where as when Philip has a similar line to Henry about their marriage he says that he loves Elizabeth and Elizabeth loves him. Iow, Philip is saying that they love each other even when they fight. Elizabeth is saying that Philip loves them, but is lacking in himself--or that he loves them but the relationship is nevertheless lacking. Philip I think tells Elizabeth he loves her 3 times over the course of the series and Elizabeth never says she loves him.)

Elizabeth could very well have split "father" into two people, the brave but dead hero in the photograph she imagined as a kid and the traitor who wasn't good enough and let her down. We see Paige having some of those same black and white impulses, though. When someone is flawed, she never quite gets back to the same point with the flawed person. Pastor Tim goes from the guy with all the answers to a useless burden, Elizabeth is either a hero or a whore who lies about everything. Like Elizabeth, the only way she can understand "grey" is to say that sometimes black is white and vice versa.

I think Elizabeth's also communicating her own terror about surrendering to the enemy that Zhukov points out to her. Whatever nods Elizabeth gives to telling Paige it's okay to quit, everything about her says that she only values people who spy and Paige isn't Henry who doesn't need that approval. As Paige herself practically flat-out says, her little club with Elizabeth and Claudia are all she has. 

33 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The marriage part would have been enriched so much with consideration of Paige's rudeness and idiocy regarding her dad, and also her mother not standing up for him, or permitting it at all.  We got zip.

 

It's too bad we didn't get a little something more on Philip's side, too, to explain him a little more. And it would have been at least a bit satisfying to have Elizabeth have to reckon with what he did beyond just being angry at him still in the end. She was thrilled at him being willing to sacrifice himself for her with Harvest but avoided some political stuff that was also important to their characters. It was the same as in S1. Elizabeth accuses Philip of just being besotted with the soft American life when really he's got strong opinions about the world/the war just like she does. She was damn lucky to have him on the ground that day, spying on the spies.

That was another thing Paige was left out of, since she obviously accepted Elizabeth's view that the world was divided into people who "got it" like her, Claudia, Elizabeth and whatever other people were out there she would work with and people who didn't like Philip, Henry and everyone else she knew. Which was ironic because of course she neither knew nor cared about the important political rift going on in the USSR that was the actual story driving all the Russian characters. 

That's obviously a strong choice they made. They didn't want her to be a kid motivated by political views, even if they were wrong-headed, or a real interest in the USSR. That kid probably would have been following the events there much more closely and have opinions on it. And as an American it would be hard to imagine she wouldn't support greater personal freedom as well. I'm actually glad they didn't go that route, actually, even if I was left with questions for how she justified herself, exactly.

Instead, a life choice you would think would mean a greater engagement with the world at large for Paige became even more claustrophobic. It was her, her mom and a woman who looked like a grandma making dinner together and watching movies and talking about family.  Other college students and boyfriends were literally extras and her ultimate rejection of the USSR came down to her mom--or maybe her parents--being gross.