Philip: The Defector, And Then A Question Mark

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What's wrong in that? Does the English poem say: "I could not love thee, dear, so much, Loved I not honor more."

It's not because her country was astonishingly corrupt and lied to her, for example, about using the bioweapon.  It's that in general I think blind patriotism to any country is idiotic, and "loving" country over family is a character flaw.  Yes, I would say that about the USA as well. 

Elizabeth refused to listen, refused to see, even though Philip tried to open her eyes.  She was more of a fanatic than a patriot.  "Honor" requires a worthy cause, and self examination, as well as honesty and reflection about that cause.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Russia wasn't dead although the Soviet Union and Communism was. Nobody knew it beforehand. Actually, if Gorbatchov had used violence as his predecessors had done, the happenings would have been different.

Basically, one can't demand that the characters, and still less the real people, make decisions on the basis of what they can't know because it happens afterwards.

Her country WAS the Soviet Union, her cause was world communism.  Russia is a location, she wasn't fighting for Russia, she was fighting and sacrificing for the USSR.

Edited January 18, 2019 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Umbelina said:

It's not because her country was astonishingly corrupt and lied to her, for example, about using the bioweapon.  It's that in general I think blind patriotism to any country is idiotic, and "loving" country over family is a character flaw.  Yes, I would say that about the USA as well. 

Elizabeth refused to listen, refused to see, even though Philip tried to open her eyes.  She was more of a fanatic than a patriot.

I think when it comes to that issue specifically Elizabeth is also working out her own past and not sure how to do it. Her own mother "didn't blink" when Elizabeth was called to go away forever, and I think she gave her the impression that she couldn't love Elizabeth's dead father because of how he died. (Elizabeth herself still keeps that a secret.) Elizabeth disobeyed the KGB by going to her mother for guidance and her mother sent her away to a place where she was raped and Elizabeth doubled down on her loyalty to the KGB and her admiration of her mother. 

We could see the cracks in it, of course, especially when she got Paige on board and didn't have Philip to rely on to be the softer one, but like I said earlier I don't think any of this had to do with either Philip or Elizabeth not loving either child enough to do the right thing, they just didn't automatically see the right thing the way other people might. So like with Elizabeth I think she desperately wanted Paige at work yes, because that made Elizabeth the most loyal who would offer up her daughter the same way her own mother did, but she was also trying to hold onto Paige by making her into another version of herself and at the same time ineffectually trying to shield her and deny that she was hurting her (a denial so strong it even allowed her to lower her standards as a trainer and observer, putting herself, her team, the mission and Paige in danger). She was trying to hold onto all the things most important to her at once.

[Umbelina]

With the exception of her husband, who didn't matter at all.  Meanwhile, he sacrifices everything, especially his own peace of mind for her.

They both share the blame, and they both suck.  I'm sorry they are dead, but damn, how stupid can two people be?

[Roseanna]

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Meanwhile, he sacrifices everything, especially his own peace of mind for her.

After what he had done and experienced, I don't think Philip could ever get a peace of mind, whatever he chose. Or, if he had, he wouldn't have no conscice. 

Just today I read about a soldier who had got the highest decoration. After the war he had a fine career, a wife and children. But at 47 he committed a suicide because he couldn't stand nightmare that only became more frequent , f.ex. about his comrades who were burned alive in a dugout. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Roseanna
correcting grammar

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

With the exception of her husband, who didn't matter at all.  Meanwhile, he sacrifices everything, especially his own peace of mind for her.

 

Oh, I think she was totally trying to hold on to him as well. She didn't seem to quite know how to do that either, but there's times we can see her trying and it makes her all the more miserable when it doesn't work (of course, she's often blames him for that, but that's Elizabeth for you--it always takes her a while to consider she might be wrong too, if she ever gets there). 

Edited January 18, 2019 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Russia is a location

A very odd conception. Russia as a country has existed over thousand years, although in different shapes: Kievan Russia, Russia of many principalities (f.ex. Novgorod that was practically a republic of merchants) and Muscovite Russia whose Grand Duke Ivan III "gathered the Russians lands". At least Muscovite Russia has a long  uninterruptible continuity as a state (unlike f.ex. Poland). There has always been many people who speak different languages in Russia, but at first all were Greek Orthodox (or Pagan) until Ivan IV conquered the Rjazan and became the first Czar (from the Latin word Caesar). And Peter I became the first Emperor (from the Latin word Imperator) after winning from Sweden the Eastern part of Finland, Ingria, Estonia and Livonia. From that time (1721) Russia has been an empire and a great power.

Even during the USSR there was Russia as "The Russian Socialist republic" and that's why Yeltsin as its leader was so important during the failed coup in August 1991. Stalin, although a Georgian by birth, followed in many ways the traditions of the Imperial Russia in his foreign policy.         

[Umbelina]

СССР (Союз Советских Социалистических Республик) is a Russian abbreviation for the Soviet Union or Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR).

That's the country Elizabeth swore to protect, defend, have sex, steal, and murder for, oh yeah, and to have kids with her partner for as well.   She fought for the USSR, for communism, not for past Russian regimes or beliefs, but for this one.  She was a committed communist who believed communism was the only hope for the world, and that the USSR would be the one to lead the world into a new world of peace and plenty for all, without regard to race, sex, or bank account balances, since all would be equal.

She brushed off all criticisms and realities about what her country was really doing.  She didn't want to know that all the murders and sex and sacrifices she made were for a complete mess of an unfair country, where the wealthy and connected still had plenty, and the poor were starving, without freedoms, in a corrupt and ill designed system.  She didn't want to know the South African man was called names.  She didn't want to hear from Pasha's parents, or from William, or from Philip just how bad things were. 

She was a fanatic, and willfully blind.

I know the history of Russia, my point is, Elizabeth's dream wasn't the Czars, Pogroms, or Religions of Russia, it was for the CCCR.