The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

[Meredith Quill]

Your Book Topic!

[Danny Franks]

So I wonder how much the Amazon series will raise the profile of the books. I know that Game of Thrones pushed a lot of people to read ASOIAF, but The Wheel of Time is a much bigger proposition, for anyone not used to epic fantasy series that span multiple books.

Even the audiobooks, apparently take almost twenty days to listen to, from start to finish.

[Anduin]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

So I wonder how much the Amazon series will raise the profile of the books. I know that Game of Thrones pushed a lot of people to read ASOIAF, but The Wheel of Time is a much bigger proposition, for anyone not used to epic fantasy series that span multiple books.

Even the audiobooks, apparently take almost twenty days to listen to, from start to finish.

Do any of the WOT audios crack the two day mark? The longest Malazan audiobook only manages 45 hours.

[Danny Franks]

41 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Do any of the WOT audios crack the two day mark? The longest Malazan audiobook only manages 45 hours.

Not quite, no. The longest is A Memory of Light, which apparently clocks in at 41hrs 55m. Two other books in the series go over 40hrs.

Total run time for all fourteen books and the New Spring prequel - 19 days 5 hours and 25 minutes.

[DoctorAtomic]

What is different than GOT, however, is that the series is actually completed. So that might be a draw. 

[Anduin]

I've never actually read the Wheel of Time. I started Eye of the World once, but didn't finish it. A few years ago, I took a crack at the audiobook. Didn't finish it that time either. Today I started the audios again, and can see why I didn't enjoy it. The start isn't exactly snappy, is it? I can see the similarities to the opening of LOTR. Ah, look at the characters, all innocent before they're exposed to the big bad world. Maybe I had more patience when I read LOTR the first time, but I find it charming while EOTW is a slog. These days I know the opening well enough, and skim the first couple of chapters.

Did anyone read Eye of the World when they were young? How did you find the opening? How do you find it nowdays?

I've also been listening to Gardens of the Moon. It's an interesting contrast. The Malazan books feel like the whole world has been explored, mapped, and civilised. Whereas with LOTR, it almost feels like the hobbits drop off the edge of the map into the wild. It's a good feeling. Part of the reason I like fantasy is that feeling of the unknown. I can tell it's going to happen in EOTW soon, it just can't come soon enough.

[Glory]

3 hours ago, Anduin said:

I've never actually read the Wheel of Time. I started Eye of the World once, but didn't finish it. A few years ago, I took a crack at the audiobook. Didn't finish it that time either. Today I started the audios again, and can see why I didn't enjoy it. The start isn't exactly snappy, is it? I can see the similarities to the opening of LOTR. Ah, look at the characters, all innocent before they're exposed to the big bad world. Maybe I had more patience when I read LOTR the first time, but I find it charming while EOTW is a slog. These days I know the opening well enough, and skim the first couple of chapters.

Did anyone read Eye of the World when they were young? How did you find the opening? How do you find it nowdays?

I've also been listening to Gardens of the Moon. It's an interesting contrast. The Malazan books feel like the whole world has been explored, mapped, and civilised. Whereas with LOTR, it almost feels like the hobbits drop off the edge of the map into the wild. It's a good feeling. Part of the reason I like fantasy is that feeling of the unknown. I can tell it's going to happen in EOTW soon, it just can't come soon enough.

I read Eye of the World when I was in High School - so some odd 18 years ago or so. I remember very vividly picking up the book at the bookstore because I liked the look of the cover. 🙂

I think it took me a little while to get through the prologue because I didn't understand anything that was going on - but once we got to the Two Rivers and Rand and Tam I remember liking it much better. 

But, I wouldn't recommend forcing yourself to read something you're just not digging. Whenever I do that, I find myself then reluctant to pick up other books and my reading hours go down. 

[Anduin]

4 minutes ago, Glory said:

I read Eye of the World when I was in High School - so some odd 18 years ago or so. I remember very vividly picking up the book at the bookstore because I liked the look of the cover. 🙂

I think it took me a little while to get through the prologue because I didn't understand anything that was going on - but once we got to the Two Rivers and Rand and Tam I remember liking it much better. 

But, I wouldn't recommend forcing yourself to read something you're just not digging. Whenever I do that, I find myself then reluctant to pick up other books and my reading hours go down. 

Things picked up almost right after I posted, of course. 🙂 And I don't like forcing myself. Audio is better, because I can continue playing games. I know I should actually pick up a book, but somehow it rarely happens.

Unintentionally funny moment. My recent bathroom reading was Diana Wynne Jones' Tough Guide to Fantasyland. It's one of those books that looks at and makes fun of all the fantasy cliches. Talks about stew a fair bit, mentions it being a fantasy staple and lengthy preparation time. So I laughed out loud when it was brought up.

[DoctorAtomic]

I actually picked up Dragon Reborn first when I was in undergrad. I got through a quarter of it before I realized it was book 3, but finished it anyway. I think it's still my favorite because Mat's bitching about whether we're all having a party now as like 50 different groups are breaking into the Stone. And he inadvertently invents dynamite and is like - well, shit!

Plus the ending with Ish goading Rand to grab Callendor and his 'Ha I was right! oh ffs now the Dragon is here for real.' Nice symmetry with Rand using it to pin him at end of the series. 

I went back to the first 2 and really found them a slog until the endings at the Eye and Falme. I give Jordan credit for creating such a detailed universe, and it was his books to write as he wants, but there is a loooooottttt to slog through. 

tbh, TPTBs for the show need to get to Rand and Callendor much much much sooner than later. 

[ElizaD]

On 9/16/2019 at 12:26 PM, Anduin said:

Did anyone read Eye of the World when they were young? How did you find the opening? How do you find it nowdays?

I read it as a tween in the 90s and didn't have any problems with it. The similarities to LOTR were obvious, but the bigger role of women unironically stood out and made it feel different. The fantasy that was getting translated here at the time was the Eddings, Shannara and Dragonlance kind of stuff, so in a way WOT having such a standard opening made the difference in quality even more noticeable: it was like those other books, but better and with female characters not subject to faux-medieval sexism. Now nostalgia makes EOTW one of my favourite all-the-way-through rereads: there are no dud storylines that I'll skip, all the main characters are together and being cute little villagers, and it's fascinating to compare the innocent travelogue beginning to what is to come later when the series really finds its own style and massive scope in worldbuilding, intrigue and prophecy. When TGH begins, the story immediately starts feeling different from EOTW and generic fantasy due to the Dragon and the Aes Sedai.

[Anduin]

Interesting. Thanks for that. Actually, I gave up on EOTW for the third time a few weeks ago. A bit after Rand talks to the big bad in a dream. I found I just didn't like it. While I understand character development and levelling up, I find the characters are starting a little too far back for my enjoyment. But maybe the fourth time is the charm.

I can also appreciate a better female presence. As much as I love Tolkien, by modern standards he certainly had a few blind spots.

However, for a moment there, it seemed like the monsters were after Rand's dad. That's interesting. Gave me an interesting idea for a story. The chosen one who saved the world 40-odd years ago, then settled back down to a normal life. However, the world is in danger again, and this over-the-hill ex-hero in his 60s needs to go adventuring again.

[DoctorAtomic]

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I read it as a tween in the 90s and didn't have any problems with it. The similarities to LOTR were obvious, but the bigger role of women unironically stood out and made it feel different.

Yeah, but they called men 'wool-headed' and talked over them all the time. So I'm not sure that's much progress. I'll concede Moiraine and Siuane weren't really like that was not like that and maybe that's because she was 'out in the field' so much. And there was a Green who reportedly slept with her warders which is kind of hot if unprofessional. I remember a few scenes where she was goofing around with them and the others were appalled. 

Not that the men were any better. Siuane turns young and hot and gets together with the General who then spanks her for mouthing off about doing his laundry. And it didn't read to me like they had any bdsm thing going on which would have been fine. 

There was way too much of people not sitting down and just talking to one another. Even Cadsuane was super condescending to Rand for a while, even though at time he did deserve it. The only reason Rand stuck it out iirc was that there was some Min vision about how important she was to him. Credit to Rand there I suppose. He did always get along with Ny too. 

[Danny Franks]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

Interesting. Thanks for that. Actually, I gave up on EOTW for the third time a few weeks ago. A bit after Rand talks to the big bad in a dream. I found I just didn't like it. While I understand character development and levelling up, I find the characters are starting a little too far back for my enjoyment. But maybe the fourth time is the charm.

I can also appreciate a better female presence. As much as I love Tolkien, by modern standards he certainly had a few blind spots.

The Eye of the World is definitely very Tolkien inspired, pretty much  by design. Jordan felt like he had to write it that way, because publishers in the 1980s expected fantasy stories to follow that template. They didn't want anything fresh and new that might put readers off.

But from book two onwards, the world expands so hugely, and all of Jordan's ideas start to coalesce and become clearer. His imagination, and the sources he took inspiration from, are considerable.

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Yeah, but they called men 'wool-headed' and talked over them all the time. So I'm not sure that's much progress. I'll concede Moiraine and Siuane weren't really like that was not like that and maybe that's because she was 'out in the field' so much. And there was a Green who reportedly slept with her warders which is kind of hot if unprofessional. I remember a few scenes where she was goofing around with them and the others were appalled. 

Not that the men were any better. Siuane turns young and hot and gets together with the General who then spanks her for mouthing off about doing his laundry. And it didn't read to me like they had any bdsm thing going on which would have been fine. 

There was way too much of people not sitting down and just talking to one another. Even Cadsuane was super condescending to Rand for a while, even though at time he did deserve it. The only reason Rand stuck it out iirc was that there was some Min vision about how important she was to him. Credit to Rand there I suppose. He did always get along with Ny too. 

I think most of the Greens slept with their Warders, but Jordan was always coy about spelling it out. At one point, Elayne talks about how Greens who only have one Warder are usually married to them, which is unconventional but not forbidden.

Jordan definitely had a particular set of views about how men and women differed and communicated, and used those archetypes for a lot of the interactions in the series. But I don't think you'll find many fantasy novels more than a few years old that have as many sections and narratives driven solely by women, and told from the point of view of women.

[DoctorAtomic]

Horny ass Greens! I hope they play it up in the show. Not that I need full on sex scenes, but overt enough that it's like, well, those three look like they've had a good time!

But my point is still apt. There is literal, tangible evidence of what happened where there were a bunch of channeling dudes running around going nuts, so everyone has a reason to be concerned. The general treatment though to just guys really doesn't have an excuse. And the literal, physical violence towards women is inexcusable as well. 

On the other hand, once the taint was cleansed, one of them needed to step up and shut that shit down to focus on the larger goal. Even the final battle took too long because everyone was up in their own shit. You'd think Ny would have been more vocal about it being directly responsible. 

For as much as there are a lot of good things in this series, interpersonal relationships overall were rather stunted. Honestly, I think Mat probably got along with women the best and each treated one another with some reasonable mutual respect. And he was drunk most of the time. 

Edited October 16, 2019 by DoctorAtomic

[Anduin]

I started again! Yes, maybe I have a hard time learning from my mistakes. But seriously, these Two Rivers boys just aren't gifted with brains. It's one of the prime rules of fantasy. Anyone with a name reminiscent of shadow or death is Evil. Capital E! The one exception I can think of is Mort from Discworld. But everyone else may as well be Sauron's brother.

I'm thinking specifically Weathert-- er, Shadar Logoth here. And @Danny Franks, I see what you mean about EOTW being LOTR inspired. I've seen a bunch of fantasy stories that rip off the trappings. Elves, dwarves, dark lords, etc. But none that echo the plot so much. On the bright side, not-Rivendell should be up next, followed by one of my favourite sections, pseudo-Moria. And sooner or later, another favourite, Rohan's stunt double.

Update: It's looking like the Two Rivers girls aren't rocket scientists either. Sigh. Everyone is just impulsive and emotional. If Spock happens to appear in this book, I will welcome his presence.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Anduin

[DoctorAtomic]

They were like 14 when the book started though. I can't really rip on them that hard at the start. 

[Danny Franks]

On 11/13/2019 at 9:10 AM, Anduin said:

Update: It's looking like the Two Rivers girls aren't rocket scientists either. Sigh. Everyone is just impulsive and emotional. If Spock happens to appear in this book, I will welcome his presence.

They're teens, to be fair. They're always going to be impulsive and emotional, and probably increasingly horny too.

And while Nynaeve may be seen as wise and learned, in a tiny little village in the back end of nowhere, there's a huge, complicated world out there that she knows absolutely nothing about. It's a steep learning curve, for all of them, and that was one of the things I enjoyed about the series as I read it. They're constantly experiencing new places, new cultures, learning about history and various academic and political structures.

One of the fun things is watching how they deal with all of that. Nynaeve clings on to her Two Rivers identity as hard as she tugs on her braid, while Egwene is a cultural chameleon, very quickly adapting to, and absorbing, new ideas. The three boys also deal with things in distinct ways.

[DoctorAtomic]

As much as I criticize, Ny goes from pissed off and yelling all the time to taking on the Foresaken, *beating them*, cleansing the fucking taint, beating Ish at his own game, and removing the Bore from existence. 

I mean, shit. 

Not to mention the absolute comedy gold of the other three telling her they're all going to "marry" Rand. And you know poor Lan got an earful later. 

[Glory]

On 11/14/2019 at 8:43 AM, Danny Franks said:

One of the fun things is watching how they deal with all of that. Nynaeve clings on to her Two Rivers identity as hard as she tugs on her braid, while Egwene is a cultural chameleon, very quickly adapting to, and absorbing, new ideas. The three boys also deal with things in distinct ways.

You know, now that you say this - it's really true! Egwene, in her small time with the Tinkers really embraces their ways and makes friends and becomes a part of their world. Same with the Aiel. Same with the Tower and the Aes Sedai. She really is able to absorb another culture's teachings pretty easily. 

On 11/14/2019 at 9:07 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

As much as I criticize, Ny goes from pissed off and yelling all the time to taking on the Foresaken, *beating them*, cleansing the fucking taint, beating Ish at his own game, and removing the Bore from existence. 

I mean, shit. 

Not to mention the absolute comedy gold of the other three telling her they're all going to "marry" Rand. And you know poor Lan got an earful later. 

Nyneave becomes my favorite character by the end of the series. I just love her journey so much. And I also love that her whole goal of leaving the Two Rivers is so selfless - I need to take care of my villagers. She strays a bit in that goal here and there - but for the most part she always returns back to Rand in order to help watch over him. 

[DoctorAtomic]

She also healed his hand when he pwnd the sex Forsaken whatever her name was.