S01.E04: Where Have All the Cowboys Gone?

[phoenics]

9 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

She didn't say because she loved Max. She could've meant to see if Max killed her sister. I just don't see the love coming from Liz. Both of them being weak actors is probably another reason I'm not feeling them. 

I don't think we're supposed to see feelings like that from Liz - because she (as of episode 4) still doesn't trust Max.  Something (imo) is blocking her from trusting him and trusting her own feelings for him.

The only reason we know she does love Max is because Isobel mindwalked her and felt what Liz was feeling for Max when mindLiz said "Max" when Isobel asked her why she couldn't leave Roswell.  Isobel is telling us (and Michael) that Liz loves Max - it's just buried deep down.

I agree with you that Liz isn't showing that love for Max right now - my post also included spoiler tags - which completes my thoughts - but that's better discussed in the spoiler/speculation thread if we wanna continue down that path.

[AllyB]

9 hours ago, phoenics said:

What if Max WAS close to her and that part of what Isobel did to Liz was remove memories of how close she was to Max - and to put a hypnotic suggestion into Liz that made her leave town?

  Reveal spoiler

There are promo pics from episode 6 showing Liz and Max hugged up sometime after he picked her up for their bio project the day Rosa died.  Max also asks Liz what she remembered from "how they were" before Rosa died.  I think Isobel wiped all of that away to get Liz to leave.  Isobel says in episode 5 that Max wanted to tell her the secret - that implies Max/Liz were already close.

I've assumed that would be a big reveal at some point. But two teenagers having a brief, seemingly intense but in reality shallow dalliance does not constitute getting to know someone. Not remotely. And since then, ten extremely important years have passed. It also wouldn't change any of it from Max's perspective. Up until this episode all he knew was that despite whatever relationship they had, she left and didn't contact him for a decade. There is nothing between them. His feeling as he does about her is a red flag for her to be very wary, his constant speeches to her are a red flag for her to run and run very, very far and fast. His behaviour is terrifying and absolutely not romantic.

He doesn't get to whine at her about his feelings every time he sees her. Especially when she is processing the fact that aliens not just exist but are on earth masquerading as humans. That people she grew up with are actually aliens. That they have all sorts of powers that put humans in a potentially extremely vulnerable position. And an alien murdered her sister and the two girls her sister was accused of killing. She is dealing with both the terrifying existential reality that everything she knew to be real has shifted. And the heartbreaking news that the sister who's actions caused the death of two girls and destroyed her whole family's lives was actually an innocent victim and patsy. But Max needs his feels to be front and centre. He is awful.

Isobel wiping a brief teenage relationship from Liz's mind doesn't mitigate the fact that adult Max has behaved like a creepy, empathy voided, terrifyingly obsessive stalker throughout their interactions. It's insanely messed up that a show that's painstakingly (and painfully) preachy about modern day politics is this disturbingly obtuse about painting what is already an emotionally abusive dynamic as romance.

Edited February 14, 2019 by AllyB

[phoenics]

14 hours ago, AllyB said:

I've assumed that would be a big reveal at some point. But two teenagers having a brief, seemingly intense but in reality shallow dalliance does not constitute getting to know someone. Not remotely. And since then, ten extremely important years have passed. It also wouldn't change any of it from Max's perspective. Up until this episode all he knew was that despite whatever relationship they had, she left and didn't contact him for a decade. There is nothing between them. His feeling as he does about her is a red flag for her to be very wary, his constant speeches to her are a red flag for her to run and run very, very far and fast. His behaviour is terrifying and absolutely not romantic.

He doesn't get to whine at her about his feelings every time he sees her. Especially when she is processing the fact that aliens not just exist but are on earth masquerading as humans. That people she grew up with are actually aliens. That they have all sorts of powers that put humans in a potentially extremely vulnerable position. And an alien murdered her sister and the two girls her sister was accused of killing. She is dealing with both the terrifying existential reality that everything she knew to be real has shifted. And the heartbreaking news that the sister who's actions caused the death of two girls and destroyed her whole family's lives was actually an innocent victim and patsy. But Max needs his feels to be front and centre. He is awful.

Isobel wiping a brief teenage relationship from Liz's mind doesn't mitigate the fact that adult Max has behaved like a creepy, empathy voided, terrifyingly obsessive stalker throughout their interactions. It's insanely messed up that a show that's painstakingly (and painfully) preachy about modern day politics is this disturbingly obtuse about painting what is already an emotionally abusive dynamic as romance.

The pilot established that Max and Liz have been friends since they were little - they grew up together.  And I think the show means to make Max look cringey - on twitter the showrunner was open about how cringey Max was in that scene where he poured his heart out to her.  I think that's on purpose because they were actually a lot closer than they appeared to be (to us).  I thought that in the pilot and in every episode since - that something was off.  That they'd been way closer and that Isobel had messed Liz up and wiped some memories away.

We'll see if the Feb 26 episode clears this up.

But a huge part of the Roswell lore is that Max loved Liz so much (even before ever being involved with her sexually/romantically) that he put his entire existence at risk to save her.  He risked everything to save her.  That one thing spawned copies in Twilight and other similar movies/books.  It's a powerful story element.

And to be fair to Max - the only reason he's put his feelings so out there (and this only happened in 2 scenes across 2 episodes, 3 if you count the pilot when he's explaining the echo thing) is because it's his defense for Liz's accusations that he killed her sister.  For Max, who could never hurt Liz or anyone she loves on purpose, it's unfathomable.  It doesn't make sense fully to us because we don't have all of the details... but Isobel doing whatever she did clearly left Liz broken (she said so) - and running.  My guess is she wiped out most of the M/L closeness from Liz's mind.  She definitely wiped out anything where Liz returned Max's feelings.

In the books and on the other show, M/L connected and bonded almost immediately.  By the end of the pilot/book they were declaring love/feelings.  Both had Max pump the breaks because they were "too different".  But he was still in love with her - although the OG show played that more coyly than the book did (which was very direct with Max's love for Liz).

Where some see Max as whining or badgering Liz to love him, I don't see that.  He has never demanded that she return his feelings.  Him wanting her to know how he felt in that ONE scene in episode 4 isn't abusive.  It's him saying goodbye.   

In episode 3, I see him declaring his feelings as a defense against her accusations.  Max - had no idea Isobel did that to Liz - so him explaining those things probably felt like it should have been enough - that Liz should *know* him.  He didn't know Isobel mindwiped/warped her and that it's possible all of their history like that was wiped from their mind.

[AudienceofOne]

On 2/6/2019 at 2:32 PM, Primal Slayer said:

This is the best episode thus far! I was fairly into it, Isabel was enjoyable, we got see her dynamic with Maria and Rosa, and the trio's scenes were finally good. But how are we supposed to be rooting for these aliens if they be killing people? 

So I have a big problem with this. A big one. Just ignoring the fact I don't believe that any of these three actually killed Rosa, this show started with a big red banner up saying "This show is about refugees and immigration and is squarely placed in an ICE world" and it's one of the reasons I persisted despite the things I don't like about it. But so far Max IS a killer and he blacked out the city and so is whoever killed Rosa. How is this not undermining the show's themes? Maybe it'll get back on track but all this alien twu wuv stuff is detracting from what I thought the reboot was going to be about.

On 2/6/2019 at 10:49 PM, steelyis said:

Liz declaring Kyle's dad was in a sexual relationship with Rosa because of a 13 word post-it was a giant, "WTF! How did you Hulk jump to that conclusion, lady?"

Worst. Scientist. Ever.