S03.E11: Chapter Forty-Six: The Red Dahlia

[WhosThatGirl]

26 minutes ago, ice said:

Did anyone get a weird vibe between Veronica and Jughead in this one? I know it’s Noir and all but it’s almost as if TPTB were insinuating their feelings for each other were gray almost. 

 

9 minutes ago, HeatLifer said:

Yes. It wasn’t over the top or obvious, but it felt kind of flirty.

I did too and I’m not a fan. Sorry I don’t want any feelings between Jughead and Veronica in that way. I think it’ll probably be just this episode honestly. Kind of like the episode last season with the cabin and the kiss and people thought that would mean something. But then hilariously in like the next scene of the following episode Veronica was selling out Jughead to Hiram in favor of Archie. It made me laugh. It’s not going to mean anything,  probably. And it shouldn’t if I’m being honest. Veronica and Jughead barley act like friends.. which is another problem I have with the show but that’s something else.

[WhosThatGirl]

4 minutes ago, Sonoma said:

I know for a fact those scenes were not written to be flirty nor with any romantic nor sexual undertones. It was specifically set up that way because of the noir tone of the episode. So please don't rile yourself up over it. There was no foundation set up here for a Jeronica pairing. At least not by the writers. I know some of the crackshippers are squeeing over it which, hey different strokes for different folks so good for them. 

Honestly having Veronica go from Archie to Reggie to Jughead would be terrible for her character, which is already taking some hits already for wanting to even the board by kissing Jughead and everything going on right now with Hiram and Archie. So I don't think the show would go there. Maybe in a fast forward but not on the current timeline.

That’s good to hear. And yeah Veronica is already going though some bad character changes I agree. Having her go to a third boy now would be bad and I’m already having issues with her for how actions regarding Archie and Reggie so the show would be dumb to make this move too, I agree. I saw some flirt stuff but I just attributed it to the noir style. In a normal episode, Jughead hardly even acknowledges Veronica. Which as I said is another issue but... to go from that to liking her? I would hope not.

[ice]

1 hour ago, HeatLifer said:

Yes. It wasn’t over the top or obvious, but it felt kind of flirty.

It really did. Made me feel kind of weird. 

ETA: Very good to hear it’s not setting anything up between Jughead and Veronica. I know this is Riverdale and anything can happen but I believe the core 4 would be destroyed if Jughead and Veronica ever got together. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by ice

[WhosThatGirl]

13 minutes ago, Sonoma said:

Don't feel weird about it. It was a noir tone, hence the dialogue and "tension". They were not laying groundwork for a Jeronica pairing nor were the scenes written with a romantic or sexual undertone. Hell, I found Hermione's scene with Jughead to be more "smoldering" and it's certainly not what that scene was about!

Unless of course you want Jeronica to happen! In that case, please feel free to interpret the scene as flirty all you want. No hate here.

 

Hee. I also found the Hermione and Jughead filled with odd sort of sexual tension but I didn’t comment on it because I’m pretty sure this show would never go there. The way she put her hands on Jugheads jacket coller was definitely odd.

That said this whole episode was odd to me. And I’ve said that. I feel like this is a filler episode for the most part? It only really moved Archie and Hiram’s plot forward, for the moment they’re in a truce? Everything else didn’t make sense. Like honestly I know we found out who shot Hiram but Hiram didn’t need to be shot at all. It didn’t do anything, plot wise for the show, not really.  If anything all it did was make more vendettas again(this time the Jones against Hermione and possibly the other Lodges) and honestly, we don’t need that. We already have about a thousand that are getting lost. I mean personally that’s how I feel. I don’t think this episode is going to add very much,plot wise, I mean now FP and Jughead don’t like Hermione and don’t trust her- but did they, anyway? This isn’t really anything new.

And I guess it brought Betty trying to find it more about Claudis death and we learned yeah Penalope killed him but that’s because he was drugging the water system and causing the seizures but we never got any real reason for why just girls and not guys. And we also learned that Betty doesn’t really care that her dad is off telling his girlfriend she’s an accomplice in murder. I mean seriously I don’t feel like this episode did anything to the main plots but that’s just me. It just made me angry. I didn’t like this episode at all, I can’t say it enough.

Edited February 3, 2019 by WhosThatGirl

[pinkglove]

Oops, this was really, really bad. I want those 40 something minutes of my life back. 

[Al D]

On 01/02/2019 at 2:09 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

I think Veronica just started saving alcohol fairly recently though. I think the episode before this one? Jughead made a  voice over remark about the speakeasy thriving during the town lockdown and it sort of made me think that Veronica started selling real drinks during that time.

It was an episode or two back - Reggie was crossing the boarder on the sly to collect the alcohol in that van that the 'Gargoyle Gang' (I can't with that name lol) kept stopping to beat him up.

On 31/01/2019 at 7:25 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

Jughead should know. I’m thinking he doesn’t. Why would he go to Alice for help in the last episode if he knew?

I don't think you should take this as he knows and doesn't care. I don't think he's liked Alice for a long time (rightfully so) but instead he was using her and taking advantage of the fact she is now a news reporter? something on television? to his advantage to save his dad. It wasn't particularly about Alice, more about her job so it could of been any old character in that job he would of needed rather than Alice specifically, she just happens to be doing that job now.

On 03/02/2019 at 4:14 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

This doesn’t explain his narration on hal being the only who can understand Betty.

I also took this as only parental figure she can talk to. I'm sure she does tell Jughead everything (albeit off camera) but if I'm worried about something I don't want to just chat to my boyfriend about it I want to be able to discuss it with at least one of my parents, and considering Alice is the one stealing her money, unfortunately the only other parent she has is Hal.

WhosThatGirl , I hope this has maybe helped, I know everyone views things a different way but maybe hearing how someone else has viewed those scenes could ease your worry, I'm sure Bughead is fine. They just can't always show every discussion that they have. Just be glad they don't have sex every time there's an issue like Varchie did, that was really getting on my nerves in the end.

[WhosThatGirl]

I mean I’m trying to give the show the benefit of the doubt but it’s really starting to not make sense. I mean honestly the Alice part of it doesn’t make sense, no one should even have the decency to talk to her after everything she’s done and I don’t get how or why Jughead is letting Betty see her psycho father. After the things he did to her, why would Jughead be okay with that? That’s why I don’t think he knows about that. He may know about the first time when she had to find out if he signed away her funds buy these other times I very much doubt he would be okay with that, but maybe I’m wrong. I also feel like the show is making a point to isolate Betty again with this and that no one is aware she keeps seeing her father.

[WhosThatGirl]

13 minutes ago, Sonoma said:

Without going into spoilers, you may be reading the scenes incorrectly. Not your fault, because the structure and writing on this show is um questionable.

First, regarding Hal. Is Hal any different from Hiram or Hermione? They're all murderers. In defense of Hal, at least we can say his evil stems from insanity! Hiram and Hermione are driven by power and greed. That they don't have a higher body count is not from lack of trying. But I digress.

Why would or should Jughead be okay or not okay with Betty visiting Hal? They're partners who support each other, even when they don't agree. For example, Betty hated that Jughead was spending time with the Serpents in early S2 and when he was playing GG in early S3 but she didn't make him stop. She let him make his own decisions and rode it through with him. So even if Jughead doesn't like Betty visiting Hal, why would he "stop" her? That to me would be OOC for either of them because they trust and support each other. 

I'm not sure what or how much Jughead knows but if they're keeping with the S3 Bughead theme, he knows. Now could the situation between Betty and Hall end up becoming more complicated, just like it did with Chic? Maybe, but we will have to wait and see. 

 

I don’t mean he has any right to stop her but it feels to me that the show is isolating her from everyone by her scenes with Hal. That’s how I view it. And I don’t think Hal is any different from Hiram and Hermione. In fact I’ve stated many instances in this thread and different ones that Veronica is making terrible strange choices regarding her parents in this episode too, like Why is she all of a sudden all for them this episode? So yeah as I’ve said it isn’t just Betty.  Irs Veronica and Cheryl too. It’s all the teenagers minus Archie. Even Jughead and his parents have questionable parenting skills and yet he’s always forgiving them. My main point is that it’s becoming obvious that none of the teens should even speak to their families but this episode all of them fell back into them for the most part. It didn’t make sense to me. 

It constantly felt as I’ve said many times it felt like there were many deleted scenes that got cut this episode. At least from my viewing perception. But again this is my viewing perception maybe I’m wrong about Betty and Hal but I don’t think I am about the rest of the odd family relationships the show has done this season and then this random episode.

Edited February 4, 2019 by WhosThatGirl

[Al D]

13 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

My main point is that it’s becoming obvious that none of the teens should even speak to their families but this episode all of them fell back into them for the most part. It didn’t make sense to me. 

But that's the thing...they are just teenagers. The only one that I agree didn't make any sense was the Cheryl situation, there is absolutely no plausible reason that she would host the funeral and have her mother there.

However all the others make sense to me, at the end of the day family is family. If we really want to view it 'realistically' (I use that term loosely) in Ronnie's case many people find it easy to forgive others if the crime/act wasn't done to them personally, and someone in your family nearly dying will make you gravitate towards them. Similar with Jughead, he's probably rationalised his Dad's actions by telling himself he only acts like a noob when he's been drinking and that a lot of the time most of his actions are trying to help Jug even if it is in an extremely misguided way. Betty's situation is unfortunate, but if she left where would she go? She now has no money and she can't just move into a trailer with her boyfriend because legally Alice can just tell the authorities and have her brought straight back home - she doesn't have the luxury Cheryl did in that no one's died to give her all the money and a house in their will. This doesn't mean that their actions are forgiven, but the plot does need to move on, we can't sit and watch every single bad thing that the parents in Riverdale have done be resolved because it would take forever and would frankly be boring.

Or you could just say Riverdale is Riverdale, and try not to look so deep into everything.

[WhosThatGirl]

Eh to me it won’t ever make sense. But whatever. That’s how I feel. It’s also annoying to me that we have watched Alice be horrible but no one ever acknowledges it. I know now we are st Alice stole bettys money but that feels like small Potatoes compared to her sending her away to a place that force fed her drugs.  But whatever. Also no one does for Cheryl to get all her money, she largely divorced Penalope and took her house and her grandmother from her mother and uncle and then got her money. And considering that Betty could very well get herself divorced from her mother and get her blossom money as well or should have but Alice gave it to the farm but the show for some reason wants us to believe Alice is still good. Betty should have let go of her mother forever ago, she’s kind of Abusive.  But again whatever. 

For me  it’s mainly Betty and her parents right now they can’t do what they have done regarding her and her parents and then just leave it there. Let’s forget the Hal f it all but Alice? Betty has enough anmo on her mom to go to the police and but the show won’t do that. The show showed us a powerful scene of her mother sending her away and then... nothing. Not a damn thing. Everyone knows she was there but Alice gets not even a fight about that with Betty about it? Seriously again I ask if fizzle rocks erase your memory because all Betty cares about is that Alice have her money to the farm what h yeah is beyond awful too but Betty, she send you to an asylum and they gave you drugs and all you’ve done is.. nothing about that? No one even mentions it, Alice keeps culting it up and hooking up with FP probably and living her best life. I’m confused with that. I know we can’t see every horrible thing that every parent has done be resolved but it wouldn’t be boring for to see this resolved because sorry but this is kind of important.

 Also when Penalope did it to Cheryl it wa treated as awful and horrible, why does Alice get a free pass? My only  guess is that it’s bad writing because they wrote themselves into a corner with it and Alice needs to be redeemed constantly.. for reasons I guess. The writers like Alice and Ma. Which is fine but again like someone else pointed out, it’s writing for plot and not characters and it doesn’t really work. At least not for me.

Edited February 5, 2019 by WhosThatGirl

[Al D]

16 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Also no one does for Cheryl to get all her money, she largely divorced Penalope and took her house and her grandmother from her mother and uncle and then got her money.

Clifford died?? You can't just take someones house and money away from them no matter how awful they are.

In S2:E28 they had Clifford's will reading:

Thistle House went to Nana Rose; Thornhill went to Penelope (but was burnt down by Cheryl); half the money went to anyone in Riverdale who could prove they were Blossom by blood; and the other half went to Jason and Cheryl (but with Jason being dead it just went to Cheryl).

The whole reason Claudius and Penelope wanted to kill Nana Rose and send Cheryl off to SOQM was because they wanted the house and the money. But when Cheryl emancipated herself from her mother she appointed Nana Rose as her legal guardian, then they kicked out Penelope and Claudius to live in the barn on the property.

16 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Betty could very well get herself divorced from her mother

She could but she's still a minor, meaning to get emancipated she will need a legal guardian who I think she must then have to live with. Now I dunno about you but I can't see anyone who would be Betty's legal guardian. The only person that would do it is in prison and is just as terrible so there really is no where for Betty to go.

16 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I know now we are st Alice stole bettys money but that feels like small Potatoes compared to her sending her away to a place that force fed her drugs.

I'm not trying to minimise how horrible Alice is and has been but if you're going to look into it this deep you need to remember that Alice genuinely thinks that SOQM is a good place that helps people. Alice went there willingly when she was Betty's age and gave birth to Charles and apparently had a fabulous time. Also how was she meant to know they were force feeding her and the other patients drugs? No one knew that, it was Hiram's secret plan. And since the episode when Betty was back at home was a few weeks after she left SOQM they could of argued about it off camera - maybe she decided it would be better to put up with her mum for the sake of the other kids now living with them. Who knows? Something could of happened but unfortunately not everything needs to be shown. The show wants to move the plot forward and there's no real resolution to your mum being a d**k anyway, just have to put up with it until you're old enough to leave legally.

[WhosThatGirl]

6 hours ago, Al D said:

Clifford died?? You can't just take someones house and money away from them no matter how awful they are.

In S2:E28 they had Clifford's will reading:

Thistle House went to Nana Rose; Thornhill went to Penelope (but was burnt down by Cheryl); half the money went to anyone in Riverdale who could prove they were Blossom by blood; and the other half went to Jason and Cheryl (but with Jason being dead it just went to Cheryl).

The whole reason Claudius and Penelope wanted to kill Nana Rose and send Cheryl off to SOQM was because they wanted the house and the money. But when Cheryl emancipated herself from her mother she appointed Nana Rose as her legal guardian, then they kicked out Penelope and Claudius to live in the barn on the property.

She could but she's still a minor, meaning to get emancipated she will need a legal guardian who I think she must then have to live with. Now I dunno about you but I can't see anyone who would be Betty's legal guardian. The only person that would do it is in prison and is just as terrible so there really is no where for Betty to go.

I'm not trying to minimise how horrible Alice is and has been but if you're going to look into it this deep you need to remember that Alice genuinely thinks that SOQM is a good place that helps people. Alice went there willingly when she was Betty's age and gave birth to Charles and apparently had a fabulous time. Also how was she meant to know they were force feeding her and the other patients drugs? No one knew that, it was Hiram's secret plan. And since the episode when Betty was back at home was a few weeks after she left SOQM they could of argued about it off camera - maybe she decided it would be better to put up with her mum for the sake of the other kids now living with them. Who knows? Something could of happened but unfortunately not everything needs to be shown. The show wants to move the plot forward and there's no real resolution to your mum being a d**k anyway, just have to put up with it until you're old enough to leave legally.

Well the money Alice took from betty is from Clifford and what I’m saying was Betty is a minor but she  could have legally separated herself from her parents, like Cheryl did and move out and use that money. That’s what I was saying. Cheryl’s a

minor too. So legally the show could have done that too. What’s the most annoying is that they made a big deal with that scene and they never acknowledge it. They should. Also Betty has a case to Emancipate herself considering all Alice has done. Also since this is a tv show the logically part of Betty needing a guardian doesn’t need to happen. But what does need to happen is some scene of Alice finding out what happened to Betty. Sorry it bothers me that that was never on screen.

Also Alice isn’t just a bitch to me she’s borderline Abusive. At least to me. But she gets away with it. I’m waiting for her to guilt trip betty like she did last season. I don’t know. But this mother daughter relationship is a bad merry  go round to me and kind of boring. Alice will always do a really bad awful thing and Betty just has to take it and then run off to her other equally parent and have him screw with her kind some more. Sorry. I find these storylines kind of boring. I feel like I can already predict how this story is going to go, and it just ends with Betty having a crap family again. And next season will probably be more Of the same regarding Alice and Betty.

Edited February 6, 2019 by WhosThatGirl

[Al D]

35 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Well the money Alice took from betty is from Clifford and what I’m saying was Betty is a minor but she  could have legally separated herself from her parents, like Cheryl did and move out and use that money. That’s what I was saying. Cheryl’s a

minor too. So legally the show could have done that too. What’s the most annoying is that they made a big deal with that scene and they never acknowledge it. They should. Also Betty has a case to Emancipate herself considering all Alice has done. Also since this is a tv show the logically part of Betty needing a guardian doesn’t need to happen. But what does need to happen is some scene of Alice finding out what happened to Betty. Sorry it bothers me that that was never on screen.

Also Alice isn’t just a bitch to me she’s borderline Abusive. At least to me. But she gets away with it. I’m waiting for her to guilt trip betty like she did last season. I don’t know. But this mother daughter relationship is a bad merry  go round to me and kind of boring. Alice will always do a really bad awful thing and Betty just has to take it and then run off to her other equally parent and have him screw with her kind some more. Sorry. I find these storylines kind of boring. I feel like I can already predict how this story is going to go, and it just ends with Betty having a crap family again. And next season will probably be more Of the same regarding Alice and Betty.

She could of yes but unfortunately it's too late for that now, so she really does have no where to go. And yes Cheryl is a minor but her Nana is now her legal guardian, if her Nana really had died in the attempt of getting rid of her Cheryl wouldn't of been able to get emancipated because you NEED a guardian, otherwise you're just a run away who can be dragged back home over and over again.

Look at it this way: you're saying Betty doesn't need a guardian because it's just a tv show, so why can't she keep going back to her sh**y parents since it is just a tv show.

I agree with you, it is boring watching it go round and round. And unfortunately we did miss a lot of things I too would of been interested to see in the time jump, but that is just how it is. Its been and gone now, sometimes I think we all get moments wishing they would of written certain plots or scenes a different way but they did it their way and we just have to deal with it without looking too much into everything they do or don't do.

[WhosThatGirl]

I don’t know. It’s just getting grating watch Alice treat Betty in a unhealthy way and then somehow gets away with it and as viewers we are supposed to forget about it. And somehow I know Alice is going to guilt trip Betty again and make Betty feel it was her fault. Like last season with chic and sang that horrible song. 

[rmontro]

On 2/3/2019 at 2:09 PM, HeatLifer said:

Yes. It wasn’t over the top or obvious, but it felt kind of flirty.

Veronica's personality is kind of flirty anyway though.  I remember awhile back she walked in on Sheriff Minetta working out, and she was kind of eyeing him and said "Look out, Archie Andrews".  Lol, as if Archie was the only guy to ever pick up a pair of weights.

[WhosThatGirl]

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

Veronica's personality is kind of flirty anyway though.  I remember awhile back she walked in on Sheriff Minetta working out, and she was kind of eyeing him and said "Look out, Archie Andrews".  Lol, as if Archie was the only guy to ever pick up a pair of weights.

I think you mean Sheriff Keller(Minetta was the one who was hired by Hiram then presumed dead then seen hooking up with Hermione this episode and then actually killed by her)

[rmontro]

1 hour ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I think you mean Sheriff Keller(Minetta was the one who was hired by Hiram then presumed dead then seen hooking up with Hermione this episode and then actually killed by her)

You're right.  I can't keep up with all these sheriffs.

[WhosThatGirl]

2 minutes ago, rmontro said:

You're right.  I can't keep up with all these sheriffs.

I feel you. I can hardly keep with all the characters have on this show as of late, especially since they continue to add more each and every episode and you have to pay attention because chances are they will be important. For me a lot of times I’m starting to just remember characters by their looks or what part of they came in, like “the creepy doctor guy” who sort of helped Betty and Jughead and gave Archie painkillers. They’ve said his name a lot, I’ve just stopped caring to remember it. There’s too many damn people on this show.

[rmontro]

2 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I feel you. I can hardly keep with all the characters have on this show as of late,

I can't keep up with all the dead people either, especially when they start bringing them back to life!

[WhosThatGirl]

3 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I can't keep up with all the dead people either, especially when they start bringing them back to life!

Ha ha!! Right? When I was writing that you confused Minetta with Keller and how Hermione shot him, a part of me while writing that was like about to say “he might even still be alive despite her shooting him.. because who knows..” that’s why I’m over the deaths on this show.  Or the cliffhanger deaths. No one ever really dies and the people who do aren’t important characters really. I’m getting kind of over them telling someone important might die. They aren’t going to.