GoT: Philosophically Speaking

[Conan Troutman]

I think this aspect of the show is one reason why I (still) like it. It just goes deeper and truely examines stuff and does it in a way that doesn't lecture you, but rather lets itself speak through it's characters.

 

This should be a thread where you can bring up things like the main themes of the series or simply post some quotes and go on from there.

 

To start the whole thing:

 

 

"Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick. A shadow on the wall."

 

What really is power? Is it to make everyone act like you would want him to? Or that you don't have to do that anymore, because you're a step above it and don't need him to do that? Or something completely different?

 

 

"Nothing isn't better or worse than anything. It's just... nothing."

 

So what is the true nature of nothing? Is there even one? Why is there anything? Was god just bored?

 

 

"Chaos isn't a pit. It's a ladder."

 

Does that mean that you will climb up, if you only focus on it enough? Or does it mean that you can fall down and break your neck, if you just slightly misplace one step?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Holmbo]

One thing that really intrigues me about the books and the show is how they examine identity. It really became clear to me when I recently wrote an essay about identity and conflicts for one of my urban planning courses.

There's so many different aspects to identity represented in the stories. People choosing archype for themselves like the hound being a remorseless killing machine, Brienne being a knight, Arya being a warrior, Sansa being a proper young lady.
And there's also so many cases of people being ascribed identities by others, like Tyrion being judged for being a dwarf or the females being categorized into either maidens or wifes and mothers.

 

The seven gods: The Father, The Mother, The Warrior, The Smith, The Maiden, The Crone and The Stranger all representing different ideal versions of the roles available in the society. And lots of the character seem to try to become that role. Stannis wanting to be like the Father, stern and judging, Dany wanting to be the Mother, all the young men wanting to be the Warrior.

 

And then there are all these group identities. People tying a lot of their self worth into belonging to a certain family and taking on their characteristics and their values.

 

It's all very fascinating to me and I feel that the story (the books in particular) contains a lot of interesting reflections how and by who someones identity is determined.

 

 

The power topics are also very interesting. I feel like every character in the show would give a different answer to what is power.

[TeddyPicker121]

Great thread idea.

 

"Power resides where men believe it resides. It's a trick. A shadow on the wall."

What really is power? Is it to make everyone act like you would want him to? Or that you don't have to do that anymore, because you're a step above it and don't need him to do that? Or something completely different?

 

 

Power does reside where men believe it to, but obviously there are still conditions that must be met for power to exist. To have power over someone, you must be able to influence them, to have control over them or the ones they care about, or to make people think that you do. The definition of power can change from person to person. Power exists, but it can be manipulated and faked.

 

"Nothing isn't better or worse than anything. It's just... nothing."

So what is the true nature of nothing? Is there even one? Why is there anything? Was god just bored?

 

I believe here, they were specifically referring to "the afterlife". Arya asked the dying man why he chose not to end his life, and he expressed the fear that the afterlife could be worse than what he is currently enduring. Her quote above is probably influenced by Beric Dondarrion, who told her that (paraphrasing) the afterlife was nothing. It was simply darkness. This probably just reinforces Arya's aethiesm/agnosticism, as well.

 

"Chaos isn't a pit. It's a ladder."

Does that mean that you will climb up, if you only focus on it enough? Or does it mean that you can fall down and break your neck, if you just slightly misplace one step?

 

Originally, this line from Littlefinger didn't mean much to me. But when I started thinking about him, and how he has risen to power, I ended up LOVING this quote. Tywin shut him down by saying he was pointing out the obvious when he told him that he believes chaos affords opportunities, but that really is central to Littlefinger's beliefs. He has goals, and plans for those goals, but he can't accurately predict how everything will play out. So he causes chaos, and while everyone is focused on other things, he takes advantage of the opportunity and climbs his "chaos ladder". I really do have a grudging respect for the character because of this. It's genius.

[TooMuchCoffee]

I very much like the idea of this thread.  Just to be clear, will it be based on Show only with no book talk unless spoiler tagged?  

[Meredith Quill]

@TooMuchCoffee FYI mod note: As per our 'Game of Spoiler policy': If  (a thread has) No Tag: Not explicitly Spoiler or No Spoiler so use inline spoiler tags as necessary. Always put book stuff or spoilers in spoiler tags in these topics.

[CletusMusashi]

Tywin shut him down by saying he was pointing out the obvious when he told him that he believes chaos affords opportunities, but that really is central to Littlefinger's beliefs. He has goals, and plans for those goals, but he can't accurately predict how everything will play out. So he causes chaos, and while everyone is focused on other things, he takes advantage of the opportunity and climbs his "chaos ladder". I really do have a grudging respect for the character because of this. It's genius.

So basically, Littlefinger is Russell Hantz from "Survivor."

Who played three times, making the finals on his first try, but could never win and actually did worse each time he played. First time: no votes. Second time, no one voted for him, or for the person who was on speaking terms with him. All votes went to his enemy, who was not even well liked, just to spite him. Third time, his team threw a challenge just to get rid of his conniving ass.

Chaos isn't a path.

It's a tool.

Forgetting that chaos is just a tool means forgetting how easily it can be put back in the box and forgotten about for a few years, then used again when actually needed. You know what else is a great tool? Chainsaws. Yet I do not find myself carrying one around all day using it.

Edited June 4, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Lady S.]

I said in Jaime's thread that I find Stannis's line, "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good." to be pretty thematic. Especially for characters like Jaime, Sandor, Theon, and Stannis himself, but it goes for everyone. And it's interesting as a direct contrast to Melly's philosophy delivered in the same episode that "If half an onion is black with rot, it's a rotten onion. A man is good or he is evil."

 

One thing that really intrigues me about the books and the show is how they examine identity. It really became clear to me when I recently wrote an essay about identity and conflicts for one of my urban planning courses.

This most recent ep certainly had a naming theme. A guy called the Red Viper must be pretty deadly, Theon's true name is now Reek, Sansa's name isn't Alayne, Ramsay's name isn't Snow anymore, Dany no longer allows Jorah to call her Khaleesi or her proper name either, and of course her name was Elia Martell and her brother wanted the name of the man who ordered her death and her children's.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Lady S.

[Rocket]

Yes Ayra's atheism is interesting it sort of what I call old school atheism and seams similar to Twyins' view and probably Tyrions view especially after the beetle tale. This is atheism as said of Twyin, "He believes in the gods, he just does not like them very much."

 

Why I call it old school is although there are some more modern atheism views mentioned in places like ancient Greece the first atheism thoughts mainly were of the like of yes powerful beings exist that others call gods but they do not deserve worship. Buddhism at it's core is this view. I also call it Star Trek atheism as Star fleet officers often confront god like beings but do not consider them gods. 

 

In Ayra's view she has seen someone come back from the dead by praying so she can not deny there is some sort of power out there but as the result of declaring the Hound innocent Ayra took the view of you might have a god but no way am I worshiping it. (interesting thing is the Hound is in many ways innocent of Ayra's view he is a murderer due to the power relationship between the Hound and the King (disobeying the order might have had the Hound killed and certainly fired, prison guards at the death camps were judged innocent if they showed that they did not have much choice in the assignment and that they did no more than their orders called for considering their rank [officers normally are considered to alway be able to resign but food soldiers often can't quit] )

 

Also nothing else has shown Ayra that the gods are anything worth respecting. I don't recall Ayra hearing that their is nothing after death part. 

[Lady S.]

Also notable that Arya's father was murdered on the steps of the most important place of worship for the new gods, and her mother and eldest brother were murdered in a wedding celebration breaking the sacrosanct bonds of guest right. So those facts alone give her reason to hate the Seven, but as Jaime pointed out, Ned's tree gods didn't help him much either. They certainly didn't help the Young Wolf and his literal wolf.

[scrb]

I didn't read the books.

But is there depth to it or is it mainly a page-turner set in a quasi medieval, mythical world?

IOW, the imputed philosophy is incidental to the narrative drive?

[dr pepper]

When LF says chaos is a ladder, i think he means that the condition of chaos is an opportunity for those who can see beyond it. Like an old fashioned cartoon of a bunch of football players crushed together all struggling back and forth, and then one person (such as Bugs Bunny), simply climbing up and over the pile without engaging. LF believes himself to be this superior, perceptive individual.

[Conan Troutman]

Power does reside where men believe it to, but obviously there are still conditions that must be met for power to exist. To have power over someone, you must be able to influence them, to have control over them or the ones they care about, or to make people think that you do. The definition of power can change from person to person. Power exists, but it can be manipulated and faked.

 

Influence is the word I like here. Control. When you can do what you want to do, when you can manipulate the outcome of events, the loyalties of people and pretty much everything else. To me, that's the definition of power.

 

I believe here, they were specifically referring to "the afterlife". Arya asked the dying man why he chose not to end his life, and he expressed the fear that the afterlife could be worse than what he is currently enduring. Her quote above is probably influenced by Beric Dondarrion, who told her that (paraphrasing) the afterlife was nothing. It was simply darkness. This probably just reinforces Arya's aethiesm/agnosticism, as well.

 

That's the impression I got and I agree with you on Arya. But I'm more interested in the GoT "reality". I find Melisandre especially intruiging in this case. She seems to have a hunch of what's going on beyond (if she's not a complete fraud, which she very well might be). Or Bran and Dany, who are clearly established to have some visions, as well as maybe Jojen.

 

But in a more general sense, I just find the word "nothing" fascinating. Because I don't think that "nothing" can have any inherent value because of the very nature of it, well, "nothing" shouldn't be capable to do that. So I don't think "nothing" can exist, because if you're able to exist that means that you are able to exist, which "nothing" by definition cannot do. Which leads me to the conclusion that, if "nothing" can't exist, "something" must exist. 

 

And to bring that full circle: "Nothing is just nothing?" I don't think it can be.

 

I'll have to come back to Holmbo's thoughts about identity, very interesting (it's just too late right now).

Edited June 6, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Lady S.]

I didn't read the books.

But is there depth to it or is it mainly a page-turner set in a quasi medieval, mythical world?

IOW, the imputed philosophy is incidental to the narrative drive?

I wouldn't consider it incidental. One may have to think critically to see deeper meanings, but I think there are messages meant to be seen by the perceptive ruler. I thought Evil Santa's recent (show spoiler-free) Rolling Stone interview, which goes into his own personal stances, illuminated a lot of views that can be seen in the series.  He's not really as arbitrary as Cousin Orson, not that that's any great compliment. That's about all I can say without spoiler tags, I think.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

No more philosophy talk? That's too bad. I'll try bumping this with some more talk about power.
When I was about ten or so my dad read Lord of the Rings out loud to me. I remember being confused about Sauron and discussing it with my dad. So he want's power? What for? What does he want to do with it? I just couldn't really understand why someone would want power just for the sake of power.

So I think in this series it can be interesting to discuss not only what the different characters think is power but why they want it. For example Tywin wants it so that he can leave something behind of himself and his family after he dies. He wants to leave an imprint on the world. Littlefinger wants it to get revenge on the people who thought less of him. Cersei wanted power to prove herself in a world where women are thought less of.

[TeddyPicker121]

Power is such an interesting concept. The word itself basically means strength and influence to get what you want, right? People have all sorts of motivations for desiring power. But once they get a taste of power, it corrupts them. It becomes their only care in the world. Like Littlefinger, most people who climb the power ladder are never satisfied. They think they can always have more. It consumes them, and they completely lose perspective.

 

Some people are obviously more susceptible to this than others, but I think it can still be considered generally corruptable. It's easy to think that if you were in Sauron's shoes (boots?), you wouldn't have that unending thirst for power. But can you really say so? If you had the chance to be the most powerful being in the world, you might just sacrifice everything for it.

 

[Rocket]

Power can be just like money. Some keep thinking if they can just get some more they will be happy no matter how successful they been before. I just need to make another billion and I'll be happy but they never are as money not what makes them happy. 

[Holmbo]

Some people are obviously more susceptible to this than others, but I think it can still be considered generally corruptable. It's easy to think that if you were in Sauron's shoes (boots?), you wouldn't have that unending thirst for power. But can you really say so? If you had the chance to be the most powerful being in the world, you might just sacrifice everything for it.

 

Well i could certainly see wanting power but I do actually feel that most people want the power for some reason. I think we could go through every player in the GoT and find a strong personal reason for why this person craves power. They are not some evil nature like force but actual humans driven by emotions. By that I don't mean that they necessarily want power for nobel reasons. I'm sure someone like Ramsay mostly wants power just so that he can get the opportunity to flay more people alive.