Charlotte

[DrivingSideways]

A lot of passion here, and great analyses.

I like Charlotte as a character but I respected her least in the series.  She was nakedly searching for a man to take care of her, to fit into her image of the perfect WASP partner (remember her memory box in the Shayla episode?), she was able to quit her job the second a rich man looked her way... she was incredibly privileged and annoying.  The infertility storyline humanized her a bit.  But I can see why some viewers are all 'cry me a river' about it.  She had the means and the money to create a solution to that problem.  As a gay man, the price of entry to acquiring a child is extremely high, and to see Charlotte torture herself mentally when honestly, the financial aspects of it are no concern to her... it was a little eyeroll inducing.

But I see the other side of the argument as well.  In context of the show and the character, I was rooting for Charlotte to have kids.  The episodes when she struggles with Miranda's pregnancy are really well acted and created an interesting conflict for the show. 

[Maherjunkie]

I just meant having some means doesn't mean you have some problems.  They were all priviledged and shallow all the time to me.

[andromeda331]

Charlotte did drive me crazy. Breaking up with a guy over china? Her chase for the perfect WASP life. I'm never really sure she was in love with Trey or that he fit the right image she wanted. A lot of it comes from she never really seem to bother to get to know Trey.  Later when he explains his relationship with his mother. That's after their married and after she caught their creepy bath time. She never asked him about his mother or childhood when they were dating?  What did they talk about? Did she ever ask him questions or did they just never really talk? How quickly did she want to get engaged with him? Or decide to have a baby? She wanted everything on a schedule and nothing else mattered.  

A lot of what I like about Charlotte and Harry is first he isn't a guy Charlotte would normal consider. She probably would have overlooked him if he hadn't been her lawyer.  She tries to keep it just sex but falls for him. She changes herself which is huge for Charlotte. Rather then making him change, breaking up with him or only caring if he checked off the right boxes for her idea of a husband. Charlotte decides to convert. After their fight and break up (which I do blame Harry for it was Charlotte's first Shabbat dinner) she remains Jewish. I do love her friends being surprised that she was staying Jewish. I was surprised too. It was nice to see how committed she really was (also love the Jewish mothers swarming her).  

In the end why I end up liking Charlotte, Miranda and Samantha more is they grow and learn. All three had ideas of what they wanted or what they thought they wanted until they got it or were challenged leaving them to learn what they really wanted. Charlotte was sure she wanted the WASP life but the perfect guy for her was a short, bald Jewish lawyer. Miranda thought she wanted something else but fell in love with Steve and became a mom. Samantha was sure she wanted to single the rest of her life but had that challenged but Richard and Smith. Yes, they break up in the first movie. But Samantha figured out what she really wanted. In the end it was to be single. 

Carrie never grows or learns. She's never challenged by what she wants. She makes so many mistakes but never learns from them or even act like she made them.  She constantly behaves like a child. It would have been great to see her learn her mistakes and relationships. To learn from dating Big and maybe be concerned by her own behavior when she was with him. Wondering why she felt the need to stalk his ex-wife, his mother and why she kept pushing the relationship. Why she couldn't just relax and see where things went. She ends up with Big at the end but its not really earned. She's hasn't changed. She hasn't grown. Neither has Big. He comes to get her in Paris where she's made once again another dumb decision. But instead of having Carrie realize it and do something about it.  We get the Alek suddenly slaps her and Big rescues her. It really would have been nice to have Carrie finally realize she made a lot of dumb decisions when she runs into Big. Even that might have been better. There's nothing really to show things are going to be different. That they were different. In the first movie apparently they don't talk about anything. They apartment hunt but Carrie doesn't know marriage is option for them. Then why were they looking for an apartment? The first one they looked at looked more like what Carrie could afford the penthouse looked more like what Big could afford.   

[Gothish520]

15 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

She ends up with Big at the end but its not really earned. She's hasn't changed. She hasn't grown. Neither has Big. He comes to get her in Paris where she's made once again another dumb decision. But instead of having Carrie realize it and do something about it.  We get the Alek suddenly slaps her and Big rescues her. It really would have been nice to have Carrie finally realize she made a lot of dumb decisions when she runs into Big. Even that might have been better. There's nothing really to show things are going to be different. That they were different. In the first movie apparently they don't talk about anything. They apartment hunt but Carrie doesn't know marriage is option for them. Then why were they looking for an apartment? The first one they looked at looked more like what Carrie could afford the penthouse looked more like what Big could afford.   

I really liked the end of the first movie, because I feel like Big and Carrie were finally in a great place. After all the crazy drama that they went through, they somehow made their way back to each other, got married at the courthouse, and then Big surprised her with her best friends - a really sweet gesture, a happy conclusion to the movie, and a nice way for Big and Carrie to start their married life.

Then the second movie happened - feh!

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

I really liked the end of the first movie, because I feel like Big and Carrie were finally in a great place. After all the crazy drama that they went through, they somehow made their way back to each other, got married at the courthouse, and then Big surprised her with her best friends - a really sweet gesture, a happy conclusion to the movie, and a nice way for Big and Carrie to start their married life.

Then the second movie happened - feh!

I agree. It felt more earned. Carrie realized she made mistakes too in the movie. Big showed he did too sending her so many emails and poems. Which made it feel like this time it really would be different. The second proposal was different and yet fitting with the shoes.   

[Melancholy]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Charlotte did drive me crazy. Breaking up with a guy over china? Her chase for the perfect WASP life. I'm never really sure she was in love with Trey or that he fit the right image she wanted. A lot of it comes from she never really seem to bother to get to know Trey.  Later when he explains his relationship with his mother. That's after their married and after she caught their creepy bath time. She never asked him about his mother or childhood when they were dating?  What did they talk about? Did she ever ask him questions or did they just never really talk? How quickly did she want to get engaged with him? Or decide to have a baby? She wanted everything on a schedule and nothing else mattered.  

A lot of what I like about Charlotte and Harry is first he isn't a guy Charlotte would normal consider. She probably would have overlooked him if he hadn't been her lawyer.  She tries to keep it just sex but falls for him. She changes herself which is huge for Charlotte. Rather then making him change, breaking up with him or only caring if he checked off the right boxes for her idea of a husband. Charlotte decides to convert. After their fight and break up (which I do blame Harry for it was Charlotte's first Shabbat dinner) she remains Jewish. I do love her friends being surprised that she was staying Jewish. I was surprised too. It was nice to see how committed she really was (also love the Jewish mothers swarming her).  

In the end why I end up liking Charlotte, Miranda and Samantha more is they grow and learn. All three had ideas of what they wanted or what they thought they wanted until they got it or were challenged leaving them to learn what they really wanted. Charlotte was sure she wanted the WASP life but the perfect guy for her was a short, bald Jewish lawyer. Miranda thought she wanted something else but fell in love with Steve and became a mom. Samantha was sure she wanted to single the rest of her life but had that challenged but Richard and Smith. Yes, they break up in the first movie. But Samantha figured out what she really wanted. In the end it was to be single. 

Carrie never grows or learns. She's never challenged by what she wants. She makes so many mistakes but never learns from them or even act like she made them.  She constantly behaves like a child. It would have been great to see her learn her mistakes and relationships. To learn from dating Big and maybe be concerned by her own behavior when she was with him. Wondering why she felt the need to stalk his ex-wife, his mother and why she kept pushing the relationship. Why she couldn't just relax and see where things went. She ends up with Big at the end but its not really earned. She's hasn't changed. She hasn't grown. Neither has Big. He comes to get her in Paris where she's made once again another dumb decision. But instead of having Carrie realize it and do something about it.  We get the Alek suddenly slaps her and Big rescues her. It really would have been nice to have Carrie finally realize she made a lot of dumb decisions when she runs into Big. Even that might have been better. There's nothing really to show things are going to be different. That they were different. In the first movie apparently they don't talk about anything. They apartment hunt but Carrie doesn't know marriage is option for them. Then why were they looking for an apartment? The first one they looked at looked more like what Carrie could afford the penthouse looked more like what Big could afford.   

I think Charlotte genuinely loved Trey as she initially perceived him but she was immature and shallow in how she didn’t want to get to know him beyond his appearance as her dream guy. She was so desperate to get married and Trey seemed so perfect that she didn’t want to talk herself out of anything. But there was love. Charlotte fell head over heels for Trey when he rescued her on the street- epitomizing bravery and kindness. She broke her own rule on not trying to sleep with him before marriage because she was genuinely passionate. When she gets married, she learns more disturbing things about him. I think she holds on longer than most women. I think an immediate undisclosed ability to have sex is generally annulment time. And I think that’s primarily because Charlotte had fallen so hard for Trey and she felt bad for him and secondarily because she wanted to avoid the embarrassment of the marriage failing so fast. 

Note- I think Trey approached Charlotte similarly. He also wanted to get married very fast and I saw no signs that he had deep conversations about the private parts of her childhood and life. He genuinely fell in love with her image as a fairy princess and thought the magic of her beauty and rush to take care of him would supplant the motherly dysfunction of his life. And I think that he was so generous to Charlotte when the marriage fell apart because he felt guilty and because of his love for the Ideal Charlotte he perceived.

It appeared that Charlotte and Trey discussed general interest things in their courtship- restaurants, art, the theater, charities, upper crust gossip, the Ivy League. The cultured upper crust can fill a lot of time with those general interest conversations and believe that those conversations are profoundly revealing of the other’s character and suitability as a mate. 

I will absolutely criticize Charlotte for marrying Trey so fast. But I have no criticism for her wanting to have kids promptly after they agreed to have them, except for the criticism which was part of getting married too quickly- they weren’t right for each other and it would have been tragic to bring a child into a failing marriage. 

[Jax7917]

I thought Charlotte's personality was the most unrealistic of the 4. I identify with the goody goody in her but her character was over the top. That bug eyed scream that she does a lot is borderline creepy and just the way she speaks in general just does not feel like a real person. 

I do know a bunch of Harrys and Charlottes though, so that part is realistic.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Jaclyn88

[Gothish520]

26 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I thought Charlotte's personality was the most unrealistic of the 4. I identify with the goody goody in her but her character was over the top. That bug eyed scream that she does a lot is borderline creepy and just the way she speaks in general just does not feel like a real person. 

I do know a bunch of Harrys and Charlottes though, so that part is realistic.

 

I agree with you about Charlotte, in that she was a stereotype, almost a caricature. I feel that way about Samantha too. It's a credit to Kristin Davis and Kim Cattrall that they were able to bring some warmth and humanity to their roles. I would even say the same thing about Miranda/Cynthia Nixon. Really, Carrie was the only character that was truly relatable on different levels, which is why I can't hate her even though she made many, many dumb choices.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Gothish520

[Melancholy]

I've said it before and I'll say it again- one of the great artistic and political achievements of Sex and the City was to lean into how Charlotte/Samantha/Miranda are Types of Hated Female Caricatures and make them lovable despite or or even BECAUSE of those types. Actually despite the Obama/Trump Era Woke Olympics in Hollywood, I haven't even seen that ever since. Women are most often short-hand hated or dismissed because they're a "ballbuster" or a "prude/princess" or "slut." Still today, a guy can discredit or throw mud or shame any woman if he's able to effectively pin one of those labels on hard enough. If a woman has any of those tendencies, she will inevitably spend a lot of time trying to moderate her reputation so she's not perceived as the dreaded caricature. SATC actively leaned into those tropes and asked what's wrong with being a princess or a slut or ballbuster? If that's a woman's personality, everyone else can shut the fuck up about it as long as she's not using the caricature to hurt other unfairly or make bad choices. 

Like since this is the Charlotte thread, Charlotte reaches a peak of growth and hard-studied spiritual knowledge by falling in love with Harry and converting to Judaism. But when she enters the mikvah, she's still a prissy princess enough to ask if it was previously drained and Carrie voice-overs that Charlotte is still Charlotte. I love that so much. 

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again- one of the great artistic and political achievements of Sex and the City was to lean into how Charlotte/Samantha/Miranda are Types of Hated Female Caricatures and make them lovable despite or or even BECAUSE of those types. Actually despite the Obama/Trump Era Woke Olympics in Hollywood, I haven't even seen that ever since. Women are most often short-hand hated or dismissed because they're a "ballbuster" or a "prude/princess" or "slut." Still today, a guy can discredit or throw mud or shame any woman if he's able to effectively pin one of those labels on hard enough. If a woman has any of those tendencies, she will inevitably spend a lot of time trying to moderate her reputation so she's not perceived as the dreaded caricature. SATC actively leaned into those tropes and asked what's wrong with being a princess or a slut or ballbuster? If that's a woman's personality, everyone else can shut the fuck up about it as long as she's not using the caricature to hurt other unfairly or make bad choices. 

Like since this is the Charlotte thread, Charlotte reaches a peak of growth and hard-studied spiritual knowledge by falling in love with Harry and converting to Judaism. But when she enters the mikvah, she's still a prissy princess enough to ask if it was previously drained and Carrie voice-overs that Charlotte is still Charlotte. I love that so much. 

Melancholy, I think you, me and my sister would have a heck of a good time discussing this show and women's issues in general over coffee at brunch - on second thought, make that mimosas! 

[msani19]

4 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Melancholy, I think you, me and my sister would have a heck of a good time discussing this show and women's issues in general over coffee at brunch - on second thought, make that mimosas! 

I'd love to join that party! The mimosas and the laughs would be epic!

[Gothish520]

11 minutes ago, msani19 said:

I'd love to join that party! The mimosas and the laughs would be epic!

Pull up a chair, the more the merrier!

[Melancholy]

22 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Melancholy, I think you, me and my sister would have a heck of a good time discussing this show and women's issues in general over coffee at brunch - on second thought, make that mimosas! 

Aw, sounds like a great party! 

[Kimberlygenell]

On 7/9/2014 at 3:47 PM, 27bored said:

S5 is on OnDemand and I have to say, for the whole "oh I paaaid for that apartment" to chap my ass, how she got it was even more bullshit. First of all, I've already said I think Charlotte was wrong to Trey because of the whole baby thing. You marry the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and that's apart from them giving you a baby. She pushed too hard and made Trey weary of even trying, which was dumb on his part as he was a doctor but thoroughly uninterested in why an otherwise healthy woman couldn't have children. Still, Charlotte, there's a reason why most women who are eager to parent don't wait until their mid-30s to start seriously trying...and it's because it's more difficult for them to get pregnant naturally. So you sort of don't get to be all wounded because it's not happening quick enough. Life is complicated. Deal with it like a big girl.

 

Anyway, the thing that bugged me was how Trey got his mother involved in his and Charlotte's break-up. Trey knew his mom owned their apartment. Charlotte, ditzy as she was, was still a grown ass woman who should've known she had no legal rights to the apartment. I didn't like Bunny and her uncomfortably close relationship with Trey, but y'all are grown. Trey shouldn't have invited himself to stay with his mother without first talking to her, and because he felt guilty about not giving Charlotte a baby he shouldn't have just given her that apartment. She didn't deserve it, IMHO, and it wasn't his to give. There was no case. And his bullshit ass letter sent to the lawyer about Bunny giving Charlotte whatever she wants would've gotten promptly thrown away. Trey was a surgeon and made plenty of money. He could've bought Charlotte an apartment if he wanted, but you're trying to give away your family's apartment.

 

They were just two silly ass adults. Trey was a big Mama's boy and Charlotte was a spoiled princess.

[Kimberlygenell]

Charolette got on my nerves for the fact that how does she feel she deserved a million dollar or more apartment with a man she was barely married to??? I can understand why treys mother was so angry. If Charolette had been married to trey for mabey 10 years or more I could understand but she did not deserve that apartment at all. I still love her character I love all 4 girls.  Charolette was super fake sometimes. I mean lets be real she was in fact a hoe like the rest of the girls. Look at all the men she had hooked up with. I remember one time she got in a fight with Samantha & she said sex is between 2 people who love eachother. Give me a break! She had sex with dozens of men on their she never loved. All of them except trey & harry!!! I really love Mirandas character how much she changed her character by far changed the most & evolved. From her boring clothing style from first season & mean single attitude & by the end she was a family woman living in a house with a husband child& even having a yard. Miranda's character changed the most for sure!  

[Gothish520]

On 10/30/2018 at 2:21 AM, Kimberlygenell said:

Charolette got on my nerves for the fact that how does she feel she deserved a million dollar or more apartment with a man she was barely married to??? I can understand why treys mother was so angry. If Charolette had been married to trey for mabey 10 years or more I could understand but she did not deserve that apartment at all. I still love her character I love all 4 girls.  Charolette was super fake sometimes. I mean lets be real she was in fact a hoe like the rest of the girls. Look at all the men she had hooked up with. I remember one time she got in a fight with Samantha & she said sex is between 2 people who love eachother. Give me a break! She had sex with dozens of men on their she never loved. All of them except trey & harry!!! I really love Mirandas character how much she changed her character by far changed the most & evolved. From her boring clothing style from first season & mean single attitude & by the end she was a family woman living in a house with a husband child& even having a yard. Miranda's character changed the most for sure!  

Miranda did change, and I don't like it when people act like she "settled' for Steve or got stuck with him. She loved him and was the one who completely instigated their reconciliation. 

As for Charlotte, I had my issues with her character but I really loved her relationship with Harry. I think she and Miranda are close as to who changed more. 

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Miranda did change, and I don't like it when people act like she "settled' for Steve or got stuck with him. She loved him and was the one who completely instigated their reconciliation. 

As for Charlotte, I had my issues with her character but I really loved her relationship with Harry. I think she and Miranda are close as to who changed more. 

I loved both couples. Miranda and Charlotte were both challenged with what they wanted or what they thought they wanted. I didn't like Charlotte and Trey because she was more concerned with getting the image she wanted. The WASP life. She really wanted to be married and was determined by the end of the year to be married or engaged. I do wish she said or it was pointed out that she made mistakes in that marriage too. She rushed in without really getting to know Trey, then went they got back together decided then was the perfect time to have a baby when most would wait to make sure their relationship was stable. Then became crazed. But then came Harry. He wasn't her idea of a perfect image. He was short and bald (not an insult I think he's cute) and this time Charlotte had to change herself. To go from the woman who broke up with a guy over his choice in a china pattern and after the perfect image to deciding to change her religion. Not only did she change it but she stuck with it after she and Harry broke up.  That was big for Charlotte. Harry loved her and was happy to go along with what she wants because it makes her happy.

Miranda too thought she knew what she wanted and what she didn't. She didn't think it was Steve. It turned out it was. She instigated getting back together. I love when she explains why she wants to marry Steve and have a wedding. She seemed like the type who's stop by the courthouse at lunch or on a work break and get married. I loved hearing why she wanted to have the wedding and say things to Steve.