Captain Jack Harkness: Who are you?

[indeed]

Owen's a pretty bad doctor if he can't tell that blood in Jack's vial is alien. I always got the impression Jack is human, but even a 51st century human should be a bit different blood-wise/DNA-wise, I would think. They didn't bother to address that on the show and more like ignored it so their stories would "work".

[itsmeyousee]

Not just Owen i'm sure lots of people tested Jack's blood before including Jack i would have thought. In an effort to find out what has happened to him, himself while he is waiting for 100 years.  But then MD changed that and since that's canon, i have to think that Jack is if not fully then partly alien and would now be the most hunted person on Earth, especailly now the Family knows all about his blood, even if i don't understand it LOL

[Dizzy76]

I know this is going back to a topic we have put to rest at the moment, but I just ran across something that I thought a bit interesting.  On the topic of if Jack had more developed relationships with women than men, this little mention on a wiki site talks about how two guys in charge of an academic queer publication (Queer TV) saw the majority of his long term affairs and onscreen time was with men.  Also, they have a quote from RTD stating that one of the pitfalls of writing a bisexual male character is that fall into the trap of having them only sleep with men.

 

I bring this up only because it supports my theory that the perception changes based on who you ask. 

 

And I don't want to put too much into RTD's statement but it makes me wonder if he adapted a show vs tell mentality with Jack's love life: show him with guys but tell about the past women in his life.  And because of that, Jack's love life suffered the same unevenness as other things.  The show did ok when trying to tell us stuff but they lacked skill at times when just trying to show.

[April Bloodgate]

Don't forget Chantho or whatever her name was--he definitely flirted with her (and Auggie) in DW.

Chantho is from the DW season 3 ep "Utopia". She's blue and is the research assistant to the scientist on the rocket

before he remembers he's the Master.

[Captanne]

http://mustang-sal.tumblr.com/post/88936409959/so-this-might-be-the-most-adorable-thing-ive-ever

[Dizzy76]

That's just plain adorable.  Giggling at her little dalek dress.

[Captanne]

It's one of the cutest things I've ever seen.

[April Bloodgate]

I haven't watched Miracle Day and probably never will, but I'm really curious-- can someone fill me in on the volcano sex thing, please? (That's from MD, right?) I'm not following the logistics of how that even happens. Also, why is Jack in a situation where he has to/wants to do that? And is the volcano alien and sort of alive? Is this related to the giant vagina referenced in the MD thread title?

[itsmeyousee]

No apparently the volcano comes from the TW book that JB and sister wrote. I have never read it's set after MD and i'm not interested in any TW after MD.

 

I have no idea how Jack would do it or why Jack would do it or if it's related to the Big V in MD, maybe someone else has read the book, sorry

[Chip]

I might have to now. That just sounds weird.

[Captanne]

Catrox14 has read it, I think.

 

As mousey is with MD, unless it's a FixIt™, the Internet, I'm not interested in TW post the two original seasons and the radio plays.

Edited August 1, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

Not sure i want to know Chip but yes it sound weird and confusing and hot LOL Obviously burns aren't a problem for Jack LOL

 

 

A question that popped into my head in the Jack/ianto thread about Jack and his past loves. From the litttle we know, Jack would either leave before people could find out about his "not staying dead" or if they knew they would leave him cause they couldn't deal.

 

But before Ianto ( a romantic relationship , not generally people ) does anyone else also know that Jack was from the 51st century ?

 

So that's two completely different baggages that Jack comes with aside from your normal everyday baggage that everyone has.

[Dizzy76]

I'm not sure if anyone else knows but I would guess that other Torchwood people would be the only ones who may have known.  In my head, Lucia probably knew but I really have nothing to back that up.  It's just something I think. 

[itsmeyousee]

It's just Alice doesn't mention it in COE as far as i can remember Dizzy. It's purely about Jack not staying dead and looking young which seemed to be her and Lucia problem.

 

It's hard imagine they didn't know, especially with Jack and his, sorry to say but really snotty attitude about the future. He is so certain that his time is better yet nothing about his past life suggests it was any better. Dad gets killed , brother missing, no happy relationship that's referenced ( cause him and John Hart stuck together for 5 years) not what i would call happy and a job that stole his memories and screwed him over. He might be Mr Free Love but that just includes more objects i guess when you include a volcano LOL but nothing suggests it's a better time, bad stuff still happens.

 

But was Jack as free with info as he ends ups being with TW ? I don't know. I guess because Lucia was TW she would get it better but her attitude in raising Alice to basically hate her father and see him as a danger for something Jack can't change. Would suggest to me she was not that open minded.

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, I would agree that when all is said and done, Lucia doesn't come across as open minded.  Or maybe she's ok with all that comes with Jack until it starts directly impacting her life.  Does that make sense?

 

And you brought up something that I hadn't really thought about, Itsmeyousee.  The way Jack talks about his time doesn't match up with what we end up learning about some of the events of that time.  And I agree with you, his attitude does come across as a bit snotty.

[itsmeyousee]

It's hard to judge Lucia because we don't meet her and we have no idea what went wrong with her and Jack. Maybe it was something really bad that Jack did and that scared her, we just don't know. But we know how she raised her daughter and that wasn't good. She put all her own problems with Jack onto her daughter and they are things Jack can't change, didn't ask for, something happened to him.

 

I get that Jack can be charming and Lucia could have thought , i think a bit like Gwen she would be the one that Jack would change for but that always leads to major problems. It's just Lucia deal with Jack is very specific, her biggest problem seemed to be she couldn't deal with getting old while Jack stayed young and that he is dangerous cause he can't stay dead. But you can't really blame Jack for that.

 

I also don't know that you have to be particularly open minded to work at TW, Hartman didn't seem open minded, she was all about duty and Queen and Country and you can justify a lot to yourself under the banner of service. But that doesn't mean you are that open minded

[itsmeyousee]

This to carry on from the Jack and Ianto thread since it's more about Jack.

 

I agree with you captanne  that Jack is an optimist but i also agree with swansong, since Jack doesn't know Rhys or anything about him aside from he is Gwen's boyfriend, why does he think Gwen needs Rhys to stay special ? I mean Rhys could be Ozzie but a prick behind closed doors and i think Jack has been around long enough to know that you don't actually know what's happening with people behind closed doors.

 

But Gwen's specialness comes from her normality to Jack, so what is it that Jack sees as normal ? I guess is the question and that is confusing as a bugger LOL to be honest. Mainly cause the have Jack flip all over the place to suit Gwen and her specialness. Leading to this topics name CJH who are you ? LOL

[catrox14]

Nope, I haven't read it. I read one introductory chapter and never finished it.

[Captanne]

Uh oh.  I thought you'd read it.  Didn't Barrowman and his sister write it?  I just don't care, you know?  It's not canon so I can't be bothered.  Never read GDL's comic book, either.

[catrox14]

Yeah they wrote it, but I never got around to reading the whole thing.  But honestly, the first chapter was a great start and I thought it had a lot of potential but clearly it went in a direction I wouldn't have expected. 

[Dizzy76]

Ok, I have two thoughts (one kind of crazy) running around in my head and they sort of connect but..well, I'll just lay them out.
 
The first thought is in regards to Gwen and Jack pushing her to stay connected to her normal life.  I don't know why I didn't remember this earlier but as you guys are discussing the absurdity of Jack immediately seeing Gwen as special and laying so much importance on her relationship with Rhys, I thought it might be worth mentioning that the web content makes it clear that Jack had the entire team doing research and background checks on Gwen and her life.  So before she was officially welcomed to the team, Jack did find out about her life with Rhys.  The web content didn't include everything the team probably gathered but it did include a psych evaluation that Owen wrote up, a small section were Tosh talked about Gwen's police background (where they try to make it sound like she was more/better than what we got in the show), and Ianto's write up after hacking Gwen and Rhys' computer and what he can surmise about them from it.  There was also Jack asking all three of them to do specific snooping with Tosh getting the assignment to dig into her family background as well as her work history.
 
Owen's evaluation sheds the most light on why Jack would possibly put so much worth into Gwen's life (although Ianto noting that they have a shared log in so "no secrets" helps).

Gwen Cooper is the original Girl Next Door. Stable family background, no significant life trauma or major illness, cosy long term relationship with the original Boy Next Door. Strong network of friends, socially responsible and empathetic...

He also goes on to talk about how well she's doing professionally even though she doesn't realize it yet. 

 

So anyway, assuming that there was even more info gathered about Gwen and her life, I can see why Jack may have looked at everything and assumed that Gwen would bring some normalcy to the team and that Rhys played a big part in helping to keep Gwen balanced (along with her friends and family).  I don't know why he continued to hold that idea once she joined the team and he got to know her for real but...maybe it was a case of ignoring the truth cause you don't want to believe otherwise.

 
On to my kind of crazy thought.  After COE and finding out what we do regarding Alice, I think I would have loved a Jack/Gwen relationship where it was clear that he was feeling very parental towards her and protective.  Without knowing what was really going on between Gwen or Rhys just...painting a relationship picture based solely on intel, I could see Jack looking at Gwen and wanting for her the same kinds of things he wants for Alice.  Seeing a chance to be a part of Gwen's life the way that he's not allowed to be in Alice's life.  Giving Gwen advice on not letting it drift with Rhys because it's kind of advice he'd give to Alice in that situation.  Putting so much weighted on Gwen's normal-ness because it's the reason why he's keeping his distance with Alice (to give her a normal life away from him and Torchwood).  I would have loved seeing Jack treat Gwen as a daughter and dealing with her the way he might have dealt with Alice when it came to Torchwood issues.  Cause seriously, looking at the way Gwen behaves at work and then the way Jack responds to it all seems so much better and makes a lot more sense if I view it through a father/daughter lens.

 

And then once COE rolled around, I would have had an incredible "AHA!" moment when introduced to Alice and hearing her backstory.

[Swansong]

Jack does background checks on his team? I'm shocked. lol If the show didn't try so hard to convince me Jack doesn't actually do proper background checks on his team then I could definitely see this.

 

Jack seeing Gwen as a daughter figure is an interesting idea. It would make him copping a feel in Ghost Machine a tad more creepy though. Not to mention all those sexay looks of longing. It would probably better explain why he doesn't pursue anything with her even after he comes back in s2 and decides Torchwood really is where he belongs and after telling her that thoughts of her were what kept him going, but bottling it when she tells him she got engaged, but would happily reconsider if she got a better offer *hint*, *hint*. And it would have made most of their scenes together in SB a tad less obnoxious.

[Dizzy76]

You know, I'm not sure Jack does background checks for hiring purposes but I have no problem believing that he does look into people when he gets suspicious or feels like he may have a problem on his hands (like Ianto) and that is the context for which he's asking the team to check Gwen out in the web content. 

 

As for the others, I'm not sure if there was ever a background check done on Owen since the way Owen came to the team was a bit unique.  And of course we have no idea about what went on with Suzie's hiring situation.  But I can totally believe that Jack had intel on Tosh.  He found out she was being imprisoned by Unit somehow and though the information on who she was and what she could do might have just fell into his lap without him doing any of the work, it still would mean that he had background on her.  Outside of Suzie, we get from the show that both Owen and Tosh had normal (or semi-normal) lives before their tragedies struck.  They didn't get crazy or messed up until after their worlds fell apart and then started working for Torchwood.

 

As for Jack seeing Gwen as a daughter, that of course would mean that everyone would have been on the same page and so their wouldn't be random scenes where Jack is copping a field or giving "sexy" looks of longing, lol.  There could be looks of longing but it wouldn't really be about her I guess.

 

The background checking for Gwen wasn't for hiring purposes so we still don't have any idea what goes into checking someone out when considering them for the job.  Maybe there isn't any real checking for that since when he starts considering Dr. Rupesh in COE, there's no mention of looking into who he is. 

[Captanne]

First of all:  Ew.  Jack and Gwen/Father and Daughter?  Just ew.

 

Second of all:  They did do background checks on everyone we know about except Susie because she died so early on.  Jack knew all about Tosh -- he sought her out and offered her a deal no one else was willing to.  He practically stalked Owen and knew long before Owen did that Katie was infested (because knowing about Aliens is his job) -- and he specifically says he looked into Ianto's background (when they were on the dock he says this) which is specifically why he won't hire him.

 

So.  I'm confused.  (As usual.)

 

Edited because spelling matters.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

Me, too (confused about the background checks, that is). The show could have made more of a case on-screen as to Gwen's skills and potential usefulness; writing a bunch of words in a supplement just doesn't cut it IMO for such important character info. Jack surely would have come across better.

I believe they looked into Dr. Rupesh, too, or had at least been considering (/stalking--hopefully, more than "Oooh, hot doctor! Let's watch!") him for a while. Obviously they missed that he was a govt. agent--I guess chalk that up to undermanned and overworked?

[Captanne]

I also chalk that up to our much beloved and normal "Torchwood bungling".

[Dizzy76]

No need to be confused, Captanne.  I wasn't saying that there wasn't ever background checking done.  I was just saying that I didn't think all the digging that happened was specifically for job hiring purposes.

 

Maybe I don't remember Fragments as well as I thought I did because I didn't think it was made clear exactly how Jack found out about who both Owen and Tosh were.  As I remember Owen's story, I didn't think Jack knew about Owen before finding out about Katie.  I thought he found out about what had happened to Katie first and then found Owen through his connection to her.  Like, he heard about Owen in the process and after everything was over, thought Owen would make a good addition to his team.  Am I getting that wrong?

 

As for Tosh, we definitely know that Jack had background information on who Tosh was and why she was at Unit.  I just don't remember them making it clear how he came across Tosh's information.  How did he know she was being held at Unit?  Was his informant the one who gave all the information on Tosh that Unit had?  Was he dealing with some other Unit issue and stumbled across Tosh and then did his own digging?  I remember him telling her that he knew all about her but...yeah, I just wasn't sure how him getting the info had played out before that moment.

 

I feel like both Owen and Tosh were hired after he found out about them and not that he wanted to hire them first so then decided to do a background check on them to make sure they were mentally and physically capable of doing the job.  He learned those things about them first and so a job offer came because of that knowledge.  (Sorry for this section.  I feel like it's clumsy wording but I don't know how to say what I want to in a more clear way.)

 

There's no disputing that he did a check on Ianto but again, I was just pointing out that it didn't seem to have much to do with hiring him.  I got the impression that he grew suspicious or maybe even thought that Ianto might be a threat when he started talking Weevils.  The job wasn't even mentioned until after he did the digging. 

 

Gwen is the same, the way I saw the web content, the digging happened because Gwen was snooping around a lot and Jack wanted to know if she was going to be a problem.  If she was there to cause trouble.  It just turned out that she was just curious and had no real evil intent.  The job offer came after Suzie's death and I am sure that the digging they did helped Jack to believe that Gwen would be a decent choice.  I guess it is possible that he saw her and thought she might be someone to hire and so had the team look into her but that's not how I read it.

 

Captanne, I am laughing out loud at your reaction to a Jack/Gwen father/daughter relationship.  I wasn't expecting such a strong reaction, lol!  Just to make sure what I meant came across, I wasn't saying that this is how I saw the relationship as written, just that I would have been ok with that if from the beginning, that is where RTD wanted to take things.  I was saying that outside of the longing looks and forced romantic moments, some of the way that Jack responds to Gwen could have worked if she reminded him of Alice in some ways.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

I think I get what you are saying Dizzy that the background checks didn't influence Jack decisions about hiring people. But when we look at Jack amazement at Gwen's skills in Day One and help find bugger all info on where Carys is i think Jack's research skills are questionable or at least what he needs from the info LOL

 

As for seeing Gwen as a daughter, I can't see that as a reason to be so protective of her. Mainly cause both Gwen and Ianto are sexualised pretty right from the start by Jack. Unlike Tosh and Owen who never are and you can his his parenteral side with them.

[Dizzy76]

As for seeing Gwen as a daughter, I can't see that as a reason to be so protective of her. Mainly cause both Gwen and Ianto are sexualised pretty right from the start by Jack.

 

My bringing up Jack treating Gwen as a daughter is not based on what we actually got in the show.  It's not an interpretation of any canon (show or otherwise) that was presented to us.  It was just a thought I a had about a hypothetical direction the show could have taken with the two characters when they were laying out what direction they wanted to everything.  I am in no way saying that based on what we actually got, that I could see Jack looking at Gwen in that way. 

 

I was however saying that the way he lets her get away with things and pushes for her to have a normal life, would have made more sense to me if the show had gone in father/daughter route.  To me, that would have made more sense out of Jack's behavior cause father's aren't always rational about their kids or people they see in that kind of light.  In fact, I wouldn't have any trouble believing that the reason he let Owen get away with so much crap is because he felt a bit fatherly towards him.  That makes sense to me.

 

Seeing the Jack/Gwen relationship as it actually is makes some of Jack's actions come across as stupid and hugely disrespectful to the others.  BUT, (and really the whole point of everything I was saying) if the show had done something different with the two of them, something where Jack saw Gwen the same way he may very well see Tosh and Owen (but more because Gwen would have been written to remind Jack of Alice or some other kid he'd had in the past) then some of what we get from Jack in actual canon could still have been written - just with a parental spin. 

 

Please, please tell me I am finally making sense, lol!  I'm starting to worry that what I am thinking in my head isn't what I am actually typing but my eyes can only see what my brain wants it to.

[indeed]

My bringing up Jack treating Gwen as a daughter is not based on what we actually got in the show.

Except I do think they kinda went there a bit in SB, so canon!

I get what you're saying and it could have been interesting to find that out a few seasons in. Wouldn't have taken much tweaking IMO since a lot of the "attraction" seemed one-sided and I certainly could have done without that gawdawful gun training scene in GM.

I remember a few years ago someone made a little essay with photo/scene references about the family unit in Torchwood and how Jack treated each member, with Jack as the dad, Owen, Tosh, and Gwen, as the kids, and Ianto as the step-parent. It was interesting.

[itsmeyousee]

Yes , you are making sense Dizzy. And i get why if that was the case Gwen and Jack would make more sense. It's the same as i have read other people have Jack projecting his feelings for Rose onto Gwen.

 

I just don't think anyone understands it , mainly cause there isn't any reason for Jack feeling the way he does. Aside from the writers shoving it down our throat that "Gwen is special and Jack sees it " So Jack treats her so differently but we are all still left with the why ? Even the most avid Gwen fan would have a hard time explaining why Jack feels this way LOL

[Swansong]

I understood what you were saying lol. I think initially though they were setting up the idea that they would hook up so I suppose the fact that he lets her get away with stuff, treats her as something special to a degree he doesn't with the rest of the team even when they do in fact do something special etc. was in large part because of that.  Because he fancies her and is apparently falling for her. Which I think explains some of his actions too. But I think, even outside of Jack, everyone is just supposed to see Gwen as just that special, be in love with her or in awe of her or threatened or jealous of her etc. etc.  I mean look at Suzie's response to her. She's even more over the top than Jack with even far less reason. So in a way Jack's response is as much about the status quo the show is trying to set up in regards to Gwen and her effect as a reflection of his own personal interest.

 

Speaking of Owen and Fragments (I know we weren't but anyway), but does it feel like Jack kind of set Owen up and used Katie's imminent death in order to recruit him? He doesn't retcon him after he sees what happened to Katie and the other doctors, leaves him to try and figure out what happened and then shows up at the funeral. Plus he tells Owen he tried to stop them, but we know how much clout Torchwood, at least the TW of s1 and 2 have. They can take over crime scenes when they want, order the PM around, but Jack can't say the word and have Katie's body moved just because a few doctors aren't interested. I always  thought there was something really manipulative about the way he handles Owen in his segment which might explain why there relationship is so antagonistic.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Swansong

[Swansong]

Double post

Edited August 6, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

I remember a few years ago someone made a little essay with photo/scene references about the family unit in Torchwood and how Jack treated each member, with Jack as the dad, Owen, Tosh, and Gwen, as the kids, and Ianto as the step-parent. It was interesting.

I remember reading through that!  I found it interesting as well.

 

 

 I mean look at Suzie's response to her. She's even more over the top than Jack with even far less reason.

I never understood why Suzie responded to Gwen the way she did.  She didn't even know her.

[Luckylyn]

@indeed Do you have a link to that essay about the team/family dynamics? 

 

Jack really is a terrible recruiter for Torchwood.  I remember describing him once as the venus flytrap of recruitment.  He doesn't seem to be actively looking for qualified people to bring into the organization.  He just waits for these people to stumble on his path. 

[Swansong]

 

Jack really is a terrible recruiter for Torchwood.  I remember describing him once as the venus flytrap of recruitment.  He doesn't seem to be actively looking for qualified people to bring into the organization.  He just waits for these people to stumble on his path.

 

Lol! So true. It's even worst than that since they keep telling us that TW agents die faster than fruitflies. But then again it never seems to matter whether they have five team members or two because it never seems to affect their ability to do the job, even if they lose there arguable most specialized skilled members.

[Luckylyn]

The total lack of urgency to replace skilled employees is just so odd.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Luckylyn

[indeed]

indeed Do you have a link to that essay about the team/family dynamics?

Sorry, I looked last night, but I haven't been able to find the one I mentioned. In my googling, other people posted similar theories about the Torchwood "family dynamics", but I haven't found that picspam breakdown or any other in-depth description. I did find this one using Something Borrowed as an example.

[itsmeyousee]

I think the way Jack came back in KKBB made sense for Jack. He isn't the type to show his hurt or his vulnerability , other things would happen where he is relating and his shield/mask falls away. Even though he did show moments of change in KKBB, i'm going to exclude the Gwack scene cause it feels shoved in.

 

But wanting to date Ianto and be nervous about it. Allowing Gwen to act on her idea, he isn't doing it just cause she does her normal tantrum, he is trying to listen. Allowing Owen to pull him down to autopsy even though the shit has hit the fan. But he still needs that bigger than life shield to cope.

 

If we go a few eps in though, so that shield of coming back is gone and other things brings forth his hidden traumas. I don't think we would ever get a proper scene where we see Jack break but just a nod that Ianto has noticed or Owen has noticed. Cause I think those two would be the best for Jack, Gwen is too nosy and Tosh is too shy. Then we could say behind the scenes Jack has someone to lean on, talk to etc.

 

I mean my memory isn't brilliant with MD but i don't remember anyone really being there for Jack after we found out he was hacked to death for neighbourhood fun. At least ianto would have hug him or you would see the horror in his eyes and you know he would take care of Jack after he threw up. Owen would have used his softer voice, so you know that he would helping Jack. I can't remember anything except Rex looking slightly uncomfortable after telling the story.

[Dizzy76]

I totally agree with you about Jack not outwardly showing his vulnerability or hurt but what I was talking about wouldn't have been outwardly in front of the team.  The team scenes would have been Jack trying to get back to normal but finding resistance because things have changed since he left to chase after the Doctor. It would be those private moments that we get the glimpses.  Taking out the forced romantic nature of the scene with Gwen, I think him making that slight mention of going to the end of the world and back would be about as close as we'd get from him.  But unlike Gwen who was more focused on trying to get Jack to say that he'd want her, comments made in front of Ianto and/or Owen would do exactly as you said.  It would get their attention.  I wouldn't expect for them to say anything in that first episode but for Ianto, a good time could have been in TTLM.  Maybe for Owen it could have been in Meat as he and Jack are talking about the space whale at some point.  I also think a good scene could have been something like what we got when the team is in the car trying to follow Jack and they are talking about him.  Maybe a moment like that where they are all together discussing Jack and Ianto and Owen mention that they think something is off with Jack.  Maybe they compare the bits and pieces they got separately.  

 

I'm rambling something awful right now so sorry about that.  Basically I'm just saying that I think a start to uncovering Jack's issue could have been done in KKBB without changing who Jack is.  And it may have worked even with John Hart there but in my head, it plays out without him around. 

[itsmeyousee]

That's ok Dizzy i rabbit on all the time LOL

 

Owen and Jack talking about the Space Whale would have been brilliant and Owen releasing Jack isn't talking about the whale anymore, there is actually a fanfic like that but it's Jack going to see Ianto. I'll see if i can find that. But instead we get sulking stalker Jack for a chick he has forgotten he has a thing for , for 2 .5 eps LOL

 

The only way i could see it happening in KKBB was if we saw the Team finding a dead Jack and Jacks reaction to be killed again so soon and it could be just a little look but someone on the team noticing. Unlike Gwen, which is in part why i hate that scene, aside from it doesn't fit with anything else Jack says or does throughout the rest of the ep. One is Gwen's flippancy about Rhys considering people including Jack died so she could save Rhys was too much, i mean doesn't she remember big monster people dying all around his shadow. But also she isn't listening to one word Jack is saying, i think a normal person would saying bugger the ring what do you mean the end universe etc etc.

[Dizzy76]

 

The only way i could see it happening in KKBB was if we saw the Team finding a dead Jack and Jacks reaction to be killed again so soon and it could be just a little look but someone on the team noticing.

OMG, I love this!  Yes, this would have been an excellent way.

 

 

instead we get sulking stalker Jack for a chick he has forgotten he has a thing for , for 2 .5 eps LOL

This made me laugh out loud for real.  It's so true though. 

 

Yeah, Gwen not paying any real attention to what Jack is saying to her is sad.  And don't get me started on the way Rhys is oh so important one minute (that she's willing to put other lives in danger) but then the next she's willing to throw him to the curb when someone she considers better (Jack) is in front of her. I never understood why they wrote it like that.

[Captanne]

The total lack of urgency to replace skilled employees is just so odd.

 

 

This could just be that, for Jack who is immortal, he loses track of urgency to do much of anything?  If it isn't Torchwood's mission and involved with saving Mankind from aliens, he probably doesn't think "urgency" is a big deal for him?

 

No judgement here.  Poor guy is immortal.  He's probably just become less knee-jerk over the past few centuries.  So, if he loses someone he doesn't feel the pressure to replace them tout de suite.

 

(Btw, none of my observations of these characters has any form of judgment.  I don't judge unless it involves the harming of the innocent -- like children, the incompetent elderly -- as opposed to the competent elderly, and folks with mental impairment.  Pick on someone weaker than you are and I do judge.  I can't help it.)

[Swansong]

 

This could just be that, for Jack who is immortal, he loses track of urgency to do much of anything?  If it isn't Torchwood's mission and involved with saving Mankind from aliens, he probably doesn't think "urgency" is a big deal for him? No judgement here.  Poor guy is immortal.  He's probably just become less knee-jerk over the past few centuries.  So, if he loses someone he doesn't feel the pressure to replace them tout de suite. 

I'm willing to make judgments especially in this case because he's not the only one affected. There are other team members who presumably have to pick up the slack when they lose 2/5ths of their personnel and if he doesn't care about his own well-being he should at least act like he gives a crap about theirs. The show makes a big deal about how tragic it is for Jack that he keeps losing people and how sad we should feel for him, but if that's how his thought process works, unless it directly affects him he can't comprehend the potential impact, might explain why I'm rarely interested in his angst.

 

Jack not wanting to be vulnerable in front of the team is in character, but I agree that doesn't mean the show couldn't have shown he being vulnerable and affected by what he went through and having to adjust to a new order coming home. But I think they'd have to consider that the things they put Jack through actually had a real impact on him to begin with. I think they enjoy putting him through the ringer precisely because his immortality and ability to reset allows them to put him physically through the ringer without having to worry about him changing too much.

 

I thought Jack's reappearance in KKBB was very him, but it really cut the team off at the knees. We're supposed to be seeing a team that managed to rally and work together despite his disappearance and the first scene that shows that basically has Jack having to come to the rescue. lol. The stuff with the team being mad at him works if you ignore all their actions in EOD, but if you can't it ends up making them seem kind of self-absorbed and obnoxious. And I agree about the scene with Gwen. If I buy this moment losing Rhys and literally having his blood on her hands has a really minimal impact on Gwen. And the fact all those people died in part because she was supposedly so desperate to get Rhys back she was willing to risk destroying the world to do it also didn't weigh that much in the end. There are surely better ways they could have shown her still having feelings for him and wanting to know what happened to him without making her seem quite so shallow and self-absorbed. 

Edited August 17, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

Jack can be very selfish and is cavalier.  I can totally see him get lackadaisical about replacing people because he simply doesn't see the urgency.  He may not put 2+2 together to realize that a diminished team means more threat to those who do remain.

 

For me, there is an element of child-like wonder to Jack that makes him relatively dangerous to the survival of those around him.  

[itsmeyousee]

 

 

No judgement here.  Poor guy is immortal.  He's probably just become less knee-jerk over the past few centuries.  So, if he loses someone he doesn't feel the pressure to replace them tout de suite.

 

(Btw, none of my observations of these characters has any form of judgment.  I don't judge unless it involves the harming of the innocent -- like children, the incompetent elderly -- as opposed to the competent elderly, and folks with mental impairment.  Pick on someone weaker than you are and I do judge.  I can't help it.)

I try not to judge based on context eg COE I don't judge Jack back in 1965, cause i don't know what has happened before that moment, to see how he got like that but the Jack when TW is set, i judge away LOL

 

But i think the opposite is true about his immortality Captanne , it's why he doesn't want new people and would rather stay with a smaller team that he trusts and knows. Despite what Jack says, he doesn't handle change well.

 

 

 

Jack not wanting to be vulnerable in front of the team is in character, but I agree that doesn't mean the show couldn't have shown he being vulnerable and affected by what he went through and having to adjust to a new order coming home. But I think they'd have to consider that the things they put Jack through actually had a real impact on him to begin with. I think they enjoy putting him through the ringer precisely because his immortality and ability to reset allows them to put him physically through the ringer without having to worry about him changing too much.

 

I thought Jack's reappearance in KKBB was very him, but it really cut the team off at the knees. We're supposed to be seeing a team that managed to rally and work together despite his disappearance and the first scene that shows that basically has Jack having to come to the rescue. lol. The stuff with the team being mad at him works if you ignore all their actions in EOD, but if you can't it ends up making them seem kind of self-absorbed and obnoxious. And I agree about the scene with Gwen. If I buy this moment losing Rhys and literally having his blood on her hands has a really minimal impact on Gwen. And the fact all those people died in part because she was supposedly so desperate to get Rhys back she was willing to risk destroying the world to do it also didn't weigh that much in the end. There are surely better ways they could have shown her still having feelings for him and wanting to know what happened to him without making her seem quite so shallow and self-absorbed. 

I so agree about the enjoying of Jack's pain but cause they reset he looks and it's all good.  But instead it loses impact of what Jack is going through, like his dying in KKBB aside from doesn't this stunt look cool why do it ?

 

But it's not the Team Swansong Ianto much like in Reset has a very different reaction to the rest of the Team. He doesn't ask where Jack has been but if he is leaving again and in the cab Ianto reminds them that it's more fun when Jack is around. Even when Ianto and Jack are alone, Ianto tells Jack he is happy that Jack is back, it's uncomfortable yes, mainly cause Ianto doesn't know where he stands so he is trying to just be professional. But I don't get any anger from ianto.

 

I always think that about Gwen and Jack to be honest. I think Gwack damages their characters and they both always come off as selfish gits and really very cruel people sometimes. I really have no idea why the writers do that or what they what me to think of them because of that.

Edited August 17, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[itsmeyousee]

Swansong raised a question in ADITD topic about Ianto not getting jealous over the women in Jack's life , now aside from Gwen cause who knows there LOL. What other women in Jack's life ?

 

Stella from Deadline but Ianto is too worried about Jack, cause he is dying so no jealously there. And the chick from Golden Age goes down as all of Jack's ex's are nutcases regardless of their sex LOL so no jealously there.

 

I think this is one of the many confusing things about Jack, we never got to see him with a chick , aside from once again worshiping Gwen , so no chance for Ianto to get jealous. But also no way to see if Jack is different with chicks than guys or if he is Mr Equal Opportunity either, cause i have no idea LOL

Edited August 26, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Luckylyn]

I do wonder if the writers are fixated on the idea of Gwen being The Woman in Jack's life and so that's why we don't get him really showing strong interest in other women. Still, Jack does tend to talk of his female exes with an emotional attachment while the men in his past tend to be salacious stories he likes to tell.   Yet, we got to see Jack with Angelo and Ianto which were more than sex.  Jack's romantic history is complicated.  Now that I think about it, Jack's never had a love scene or current love interest that was a woman, and I do think the writers' favoritism of Gwen is the reason why.

[indeed]

I'm pretty sure if there ever is a season 5, Jack will be all over at least one woman to balance out the all-male attention of season 4.

[itsmeyousee]

I think Angelo was the perfect opportunity to show Jack with a woman. Even with Gwen is the universe , she is now married and a mum and it's supposed to be maybe who the F knows but Jack's past. So it's not like Jack is daring to check out a chick within Gwen presence of anything, cause we all know that would never happen.

Edited August 26, 2014 by itsmeyousee