Captain Jack Harkness: Who are you?

[Luckylyn]

I feel like I know Jack really well and not enough.  There's so much that's unknown like his true name and his back story with the Time Agency was never fleshed out.  I'm still dying to know the story for Jack's missing two years.

 

I just adore John Barrowman in this role.  I don't know if I would like Jack as much played by another actor.  He sells that larger than life adventurer hero vibe so well.  He can be the fun, scary, and heartfelt all at once.  His journey from con man to hero is so much a part of his choices.  I believe his tendency to be over forgiving of the team goes back to his shame over his con man past.  He got another chance to be a better man and so offers the others the same chance.

[ElleryAnne]

His journey from con man to hero is so much a part of his choices.  I believe his tendency to be over forgiving of the team goes back to his shame over his con man past.  He got another chance to be a better man and so offers the others the same chance.

 

 

I love his transformation from con man to hero.  The thing I love about his ability to forgive is that it comes from the wisdom of years - not only of his own mistakes and poor choices, but of seeing humanity struggle.  He's developed an empathy for humankind, and with it an ability to put their faults in perspective with their struggles.

 

I know we never know for sure if he's the Face of Boe, but it makes sense to me that he could be, because I see Jack turning into someone who would keep giving every breath to save people right to the end.

[Luckylyn]

I do worry that RTD might make Jack too much of a martyr. They really pile the suffering on him and tend to make things his fault even when they aren't.

[itsmeyousee]

A perfect title, cause that's my question about Jack LOL

 

But talking longer about Jack's backstory in Fragments, that Swansong brought up in Tosh's topic. I thought Jack was a freelancer, so not a permanent member of TW3. So he could have gone to lots of different places in between the time he spent in Cardiff, while he was waiting for the Doctor. He was in both World Wars i think and i don't think he was with TW when he meet the faires was he ?

 

I am guessing though he was there all the time when Alex was in charge because the turn of the century and when he was with Lucia which was what the 70's.

 

I won't go into MD and being in America in the 20's cause i don't get what timeline that is supposed to be, to be honest.

 

But that leaves lots of story that could be told about Jack, like what happened to him in the 60's that made him known as the guy that didn't care from COE.

[Swansong]

I meant more why, after he finds out from Tarot girl that he won't be meeting up with the Doctor for another 100 years, he opted to work for Torchwood at all when he clearly wasn't happy with their methods and initially rejects their offer. They threaten him, but it's not as if he had to stay in Cardiff at that point. Was it because despite finding their methods dubious he liked having a purpose? It's not a big thing, but I did kind of idly wonder. It obviously gave him money, but it must have given him something else. I know he told the Doctor he did it in his honour, but I have a hard time believing, if Torchwood was as bad as we're led to believe, that he always thought the Doctor would be proud of him working for an organisation like that. 

 

Yeah they don't say why exactly he was in Lahore, whether he was actually with the army at that point or whether he was doing Torchwood business and posing. I think there is web material that covers this time a bit. I remember some sort of letter that had a wonky date.

[Luckylyn]

Why did Jack stay with Torchwood?  He didn't need to be part of them to wait for  the doctor.

 

What I really want more info on is the back story of COE when Jack is apparently so dark that he's selected to complete the sale of 12 children to the 456?   Why does he have such a negative reputation and what other horrible things was he part of?  I feel like the writers didn't think of the implications of Jack participation in what happened to those children.

[Captanne]

He did need the Rift.  Or at least proximity to it.  He knew that's where the Doctor eventually had to return to refuel the TARDIS.

 

ETA:  Also, imo, the greatest threat to a man like Jack Harkness as an immortal is boredom.  A lot of his actions can be chalked up to "Why not?"  He's got nothing to lose.

What I really want more info on is the back story of COE when Jack is apparently so dark that he's selected to complete the sale of 12 children to the 456?   Why does he have such a negative reputation and what other horrible things was he part of?  I feel like the writers didn't think of the implications of Jack participation in what happened to those children.

 

If I wasn't able to write off CoE, this would ruin Jack for me.  No brainer, show stopper and deal breaker.

 

But the rest of that show is so dramatically OOC for everyone, that I write it off.  Fingers in my ears going, "La la la la. I can't heeeeeear you."

 

I remember being excited for CoE when it was announced.  Then, as it aired, I watched with growing horror, "What is this?!"

 

Like a child at Christmas expecting to open a present of toffee and getting worms.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

He did need the Rift.  Or at least proximity to it.  He knew that's where the Doctor eventually had to return to refuel the TARDIS.

Not for another hundred years or so though. But there's definitely the boredom factor. On the other hand there was potentially a whole new world to explore. At least for a while.

 

The Jack we meet in 1960s COE doesn't really gel with the Jack we know. Even the glimpses of past Jack. So yeah it would have been nice to know why he was so apparently jaded by that point he's the man to sacrifice 12 children. Something must have happened. Why would he even be on the government radar at that point for that reasoning. At least any more than any other Torchwood agent. I can see wanting Torchwood there because there job is dealing with aliens, but during that period they presumably had TW1 and TW2. So beyond the immortal thing why does Jack stand out as especially ruthless amongst that crowd?

[Dizzy76]

I've been avoiding this thread because like Luckylyn I feel like I know Jack without knowing him at all.  There is so much in my head about Jack but I just don't know what to do with it all nevermind trying to type up a coherent post to share with you guys.  Just to warn you, this will probably come out as nothing more than a rambling mess.

 

The show (and books and web content) throw so much at us but it never comes together in a cohesive or satisfying way.  Basically it all just makes me a bit more confused.  And when the show presented opportunity to get a bit deeper into Jack's past, they squandered it by focusing on Gwen's feelings or glossed over the importance of information by just making it a throwaway line.  I started watching the show because I thought the focus would be on Jack and I desperately wanted to know him and learn about who he became while waiting for the Doctor.  I walked away after COE disappointed that I wasn't going to get the kind of character development that I was craving when it all began.

 

But the potential?  The potential was amazing!  There literally could be several series made focusing on different time periods in Jack's life.  I would love knowing more about his Time Agent days and exactly what he and John Hart got up to together.  There are 2 years missing for him and it could be awesome to have Jack just waiting it out until he hits the right time to do more investigating into why that happened.  That way, it would also account for John looking older - Jack's been waiting for years and years and years to get back to this point.  There's tons of stories available for exploration about Torchwood Jack pre-team days.  What exactly was the arrangement there and how did he get from prisoner to voluntarily staying and working with/for them?  And me being me, I would love to see the how each relationship Jack had (the unknown wife, Estelle, Lucia, Michael, Angelo) slowly got him to the point he's at at the start of series 1.  The little bit we got shed some necessary light for me when thinking about Jack and Ianto but seriously...I want more!

 

I know that all pre-Torchwood show stuff would be hard to film without getting another actor so I would be ok having those stories told in novel form because I too can't see anyone else playing Jack Harkness other than John.  But future Jack can shed some light on past Jack from the future and what he got up to then so those could become actual shows. 

 

The idea of Doctor Who Jack turning into Torchwood Jack and then later turning into the Face of Boe (which no one can tell me he isn't no matter how much RTD wants to try and take back that that was indeed what he was going for.  There is video of him, David Tennant, and JB talking about it and the internet remembers!) is so interesting to me that I should have known that there was no way for me to be satisfied by what I was going to get.  And in this way, I use fanfiction to scratch the itch.  There have been great writers who have taken this journey and really done some interesting things with it.  The show dabbles with the journey but because they are horrible with follow through the attempts just all fall a bit flat for me.  But again, I love the potential of it all. 

 

Jack staying with Torchwood (off and on) even though the treated him the way they did, Jack trying to be someone the Doctor can be proud of, Jack getting betrayed over and over and over again by those he trusts through the many years, Jack forgiving time and time again because he's been forgiven of many things, Jack having a family who don't want him in their lives, the toll it must have taken to have Alex off everyone leaving Jack with this huge responsibility, Jack having to make the hard decisions despite everyone else getting angry at him for it.  All these things paint a picture for a rich character but for some reason I feel like I don't have a true grasp on any of them.

[Luckylyn]

I think part of the problem is that the focus of Torchwood was Gwen and that that meant Jack's story got shortchanged. 

 

I would happily watch a prequel that focused on the time between when Jack first started working at Torchwood to when we meet him again in Everything Changes.

 

A pre-Doctor Who prequel showing Jack at the Time Agency and why he has two missing years would be a great topic for a miniseries.  Unfortunately, I don't' think RTD would ever give us something that Jack centric because for RTD all roads Gwen's story.

[itsmeyousee]

I'm guessing 3 reasons Jack said yes to TW, one to stop being killed and locked up, two it allowed him to know what was happeneing and be near the Rift, three he needed something to do, some sort of structure. A hundred years is a long time to be stuck on a planet that not yours , in a time that's not yours. Time Traveller/Agent or not Jack was able to come and go as he pleased, he couldn't anymore.

 

And i don't think it was always bad at TW, yes the chicks he meet that were in charge were nutters but Jack liked Alex and fell in love with Lucia and had a family and that was after his "dark period" in the 60's (COE) . So i don't think eveyone is charge was bad.

 

Also once he learnt about why TW was set up, I agree that Jack would protect the Doctor. I mean someone had to be probably along with Unit.

[indeed]

Yes, Jack probably would protect the Doctor that ditched him, but the Doctor hardly needs protecting.

[itsmeyousee]

Well i figure some people are protecting the Doctor since TW has been around for 100 years and can't they find  the Doctor until he pops in on them LOL. And Jack and Unit would have to be the ones.

 

But talking about Jack being ditched which time ? Cause chasing the tardis and hanging until the end of the universe is also ditching aside from I want to say satellite 5 up unsure about the TV station name. But have you ever listen to the Audio book In The Shadows, cause that is the only time i can think of when Jack being abandoned by the Doctor has ever come up.  I don't think it gets acknowledge otherwise does it ?

 

 

[catrox14]

Hello. Been away from Torchwood. I've been obsessed with Supernatural and Arrow and Hannibal and baseball and getting my life together. 

 

re Jack being abandoned by the Doctor.  Jack and Ten had the conversation in Utopia when Jack is in the radiation room. 

 

JACK: The police box kind of gives it away. I've been following you for a long time. You abandoned me.
DOCTOR: Did I? Busy life. Moving on.

 

And then they have that amazing conversation that IMO is one of best bits of writing and acting between Tennant and JB.

Edited July 6, 2014 by catrox14

[itsmeyousee]

Thank you catrox14 , i'm bad at remembering the DW eps. So you're talking about Jack can't be fixed cause he is a fixed point in time and that makes the Doctor sick looking at Jack. I mean it probably says more than that LOL but that's the gist of it . Cause mainly i just remember being really angry for Jack. It sounded like the Doctor blamed Jack , when Jack was the innocent victim.

[catrox14]

Yes. That's the one, which is another reason I resent the hell out of MD for completely retconning Jack's immortality when they decided to make Rex immortal from Jack's blood...or whatever that stupidity was....but I'm not bitter...at all...

[itsmeyousee]

Be bitter, i am LOL. One of the many things that made no sense in MD. Surely with everything we have seen with Jack someone would have already tested his blood and if it was different why wouldn't Jack be locked up and experimented on. And why didn't Owen notice ? Just watched KKBB last night and Jack's blood got used along with everyone elses.

[indeed]

I just figure the Doctor can go all over time and space-- he doesn't really need anyone's protection wherever he goes, even Earth. Except for Boomtown, Jack wouldn't know when the Doctor's popping up anyway to help.

[Dizzy76]

Don't get me started on Jack's blood and MD.  That one stupid change trampled over DW/TW mythology that I just can't deal with it.  It makes no sense to me how RTD thought it was ok to change something like that.  Jack's immortality and how he came to have it and how he's stuck with it and how he can't understand what's really going on with it was such huge part of what made him Jack.  His "curse" and the details behind it has played a part in so many decisions he's made concerning his personal life (and even professional life  at times) that you would think that even RTD would find it all a bit sacred.

 

And personally, I found the change in MD a slap in the face to every fan who was upset about Owen's, Tosh's, and Ianto's deaths and told that in the TW universe, the dead stay dead.  Forget for a second that Owen himself proved that excuse lame and untrue, but having the very next series end with some guy that they only just introduced get something that a character who put in 3 years time and was seen as important didn't get the chance to have...  It still burns me.  It was like RTD was mocking every fan who had a problem with all the original cast deaths.  And yes, especially Ianto's (absolutely no shame in my game).

[Luckylyn]

@Dizzy76 you really captured why giving Rex immortality through Jack's blood was so frustrating.  It made no sense.   If Jack's blood could make people immortal, that Torchwood would have figured that out in all the decades he worked for them.  I hate the idea of changing Parting of the Ways and what Rose did.

 

I hate that the characters I loved got permanently killed while Rex who got on my nerves gets immortality.

[itsmeyousee]

I just figure the Doctor can go all over time and space-- he doesn't really need anyone's protection wherever he goes, even Earth. Except for Boomtown, Jack wouldn't know when the Doctor's popping up anyway to help.

But the Doctor was stuck on Earth for a long time, i think he was banished here if i remember the Old Who properly, so Jack could swing by Unit anytime to see the Doctor but it wouldn't be the one he needed. But TW 1 wouldn't have been looking for a particular Doctor, just The Doctor, how could they not find him unless he was being protected. And i would assume anytime he could help with that Jack would. Whether that was false info or hiding info who knows.

[indeed]

how could they not find him unless he was being protected.

Because that was Old Who and they were hardly considering any of that when they wrote it? Maybe they did find him, but the Doctor can handle himself? IIRC Jack's never implied he's met any previous Doctors on Earth and only mentioned that he watched Rose from afar when she was growing up. We don't know that Torchwood ever really was that interested in going after the Doctor except for that time with Alice and Emily and even then they were just looking for leads and not in any position to actually pose a real threat to him. The Doctor was aware the Queen made him the enemy to Torchwood and didn't seem too bothered when he showed up at the very heart of Torchwood. And as I said, he's hardly needed protection from every other threat he's encountered elsewhere. Jack may have monitored Doctor sightings, but I don't know that he got himself involved in anything if he ever was able to get ahead of a Doctor-related situation; I get more of the impression he didn't get involved to keep the timelines preserved.

This is all speculation so I don't really care to debate this. I just don't think the Doctor of all people really needs to be protected from the big bad Torchwood Institute...but I wouldn't mind seeing a future series on either show about that!

Edited July 7, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

I was thinking that RTD being the big fan of Doctor Who would have remembered the Doctor being on Earth for a long time in this storyline, where he created an organisation that has the Doctor as "number one enemy" . And a guy that was a companion who got stuck on earth and didn't stay dead but also worked for this organisation and would protect his friend the Doctor.

 

I'm not saying it happened or that Jack visited the Doctor , just asuming that Jack wouldn't want the Doctor caught by TW1 and neither would Unit since they were sheltering the Doctor.

[itsmeyousee]

A question , one of the many i guess really about Jack LOL but do you think he treats his relationships with women more in a fairytale manner than his real manner with guys ?

 

I'm not sure that "fairytale" is the right term i'm looking for but they don't seemed to be  with the very little we know about Jack with women based on the everyday life you have with someone. There is an unrealistic nature to them. Not sure that made any more sense than fairytale LOL

[catrox14]

I think he tended to put women on a pedestal where as men he saw as more equal to him. I never thought he thought women were less than him.

[Swansong]

 

A question , one of the many i guess really about Jack LOL but do you think he treats his relationships with women more in a fairytale manner than his real manner with guys ?

I don't know about fairy tale. But there seems to be a sense that he believes that women would expect and likely deserve more of a commitment than he's willing to give, but what a man might need or expect in a relationship seemed to be less of a consideration in determining whether he'd get involved with them or not. He does seems more willing to put their best interests (or what he thinks are their best interests) ahead of his libido regardless of his feelings, but I don't really see that with the men he gets involved with. 

[Luckylyn]

That's an interesting point about Jack and his feeling about relationships with men vs. women.  I feel like the most we know about Jack's relationships with women is anecdotal.  We learn about Estelle and Lucia after they are no longer together.   Ianto and Angelo are the only ones we see Jack actually ever get involved with.  Gwen I guess sorta counts with their weird dynamic but technically they weren't together.  He did seem to think Gwen deserved normal while not seeming to care if Ianto got normal in his life. 

 

I do think the person Jack most has on a pedestal is The Doctor.  He romanticizes him more than anyone else.

[itsmeyousee]

I don't even know if it's a pedestal i'm think of , though i agree the Doctor is number one up there. Maybe those of you that know the DW Jack better than i do could help. But he doesn't even talk about women in the same way, i struggle to think of stories Jack has told about past flings that are women.

 

It strangely and yes very strangley LOL comes from Jack doing a volcano very huh and asking the omnisexual question. Shouldn't everyone be thought of in a similar way landscape included apparently LOL

 

I was listening to Deadline last night and Jack's story about the Dr that Ianto calls for help is the only sexualised story i can think of that Jack has told about a woman. Yes he flirts with women but it's more put back onto himself, like hey i like me , what do you think of me, of  course you think about me, who wouldn't (insert laughter or smile here ) type of thing. It's not about the women.

[Swansong]

 

That's an interesting point about Jack and his feeling about relationships with men vs. women.  I feel like the most we know about Jack's relationships with women is anecdotal.

So true. The only thing we learn about his relationship with Alice's mother is that they had a child together and that she resented the fact that he didn't grow old. That does suggest they were together for a long time otherwise why would that matter so much. But then again don't they also say she went into deep cover when Alice was young so I'd assume the relationship ended then unless Jack also went into deep cover otherwise why bother if you're still going to be involved with a known TW operative, but Torchwood tends to be shoddy with these details so who knows. And he loved Estelle from first sight and promised to be together forever, but they lost touch and he didn't seem to make an effort to find her until she was old. We know he was married, but that's all we know. And then there's Gwen, who is always treated as special by the show so whether his treatment of her is simply unique to her or a reflection of how he generally treats  the women in his life who knows.

 

All we're really told on DW is that he likes to shag and we see him flirt with men and women, well Rose mostly and I guess Martha although weirdly he's shown as less keen with Donna flirting with him which seems unJack like and there's that soldier in a bar he denies anything happening with, but there's no real talk of any significant romantic relationships although his relationships with both the Doctor and Rose are clearly treated as very significant and emotionally important to him.  

Edited July 11, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

But the fliritng is it like i mentioned ? More about Jack and who wouldn't want Jack etc etc. Even with Martha i think it's more of a front Jack puts on to be who he is expected to be like, though he does love her friendship. I think the Donna and soldier parts where there to indicate that's Jack was in a relationship, so he not so flirty atm.

 

And yes it's hard to judge his relationships with women cause we don't get to see that. I figure cause that would risk Gwen's spotlight and that can't happen. I wish Angelo was a chick, a perfect opportunity to show Jack in a relationship with a woman. Still could have been a nut job, just for different reasons LOL

[indeed]

Don't forget Chantho or whatever her name was--he definitely flirted with her (and Auggie) in DW.

[itsmeyousee]

Don't forget Chantho or whatever her name was--he definitely flirted with her (and Auggie) in DW.

Sorry no idea, who they are or what ep. But how did Jack flirt with them ? Differently from how he flirts with guys ?

 

Like with Ianto it's about Ianto and his assests so to speak but with chicks it's not like that, that i can remember but i'm really bad at the DW Jack

[Swansong]

In his Doctor Who episodes it does tend to be a case of Jack being Jack.

[Dizzy76]

I wanted to throw in some info about Estelle.  The story seems to go that Jack went off to war and Estelle wrote to him while Jack wrote short notes to her when he could.  Later Estelle was told that Jack had died in secret combat but she writes a letter later on (2004) not knowing where to send it really but writing to Jack because she thinks she has spotted him at some shop.  In the letter she speculates that it could possibly be his son because unlike the guy she saw, she has age where he has not.  I am going to assume this is why Jack gets back in contact with her and pretends that he is his own son.  (Not sure if this is the letter Estelle received about his death cause they send it to a Mrs E. Harkness about her son.  ???)

 

Not sure what to say about Jack in the men vs woman debate.  My only real thought about things is that when viewing Jack's past relationships on earth, I like to take into account the time periods in which he had them.  Is it possible that because of how our culture viewed same sex relationships, it wasn't easy for Jack to have deep lasting relationships with other men.  Like Angelo, were other guys more afraid of having something serious with Jack because then, they couldn't just write it off a one off or just having a bit of fun?  Estelle and Lucia and whoever Jack's wife was - they didn't have to worry about what being in a relationship with Jack meant or what it said about them.  No clue if any of this is true or not, just me thinking thoughts.

 

It seems that depending on who you talk to, which camp you fall in, your view of how Jack treats men and women change.  There are some people who would totally agree that Jack seems to fall in love with women but only has flings with men.  There are some who were a bit pissed that the show never showed him in an actual relationship with a woman and despite how badly they were written, the only real examples of Jack being with someone were Ianto and Angelo, both men.

 

I honestly don't think there was any real thought put into how things were written.  At least, I don't think that what was shown/written was suppose to say anything meaningful about Jack (outside of this is how Jack is when he's involved with someone and these past relationships may be why he is like that).  I think on Doctor Who, Jack was shown as being an equal opportunity flirt and that both Rose and the Doctor broke through whatever emotional wall he may have had up and that he loved them both very much.  I'm still not sure in which way he loved Rose but I wouldn't disagree with anyone who said it could have been in a romantic way.  And of course, I think he loved the Doctor and would have totally gone there if he thought the Doctor would have been open to having a relationship with him.  All this to say that on Doctor Who, I feel like we had a perfect example of Jack showing that he could love both male and female beings without any weird hangups due to gender.

 

Fast forward to Torchwood and I think because the writing sucked for Jack, this issue got screwed up.  No longer was it a matter of trying to show Jack's bi/omnisexual side in a true way.  Instead it was about him fawning over Gwen and treating her as special because we needed to be hit over the head a million times with how special she was and how we as viewers were suppose to see her.  Lucia became someone in Jack's life because they needed him to have a family in COE and men can't have kids (yet) so Lucia had to be female.  Estelle's gender may have been a bit less plot point focused but because they wanted to show that Jack had indeed managed to be with someone for more than a moment, maybe the person had to be female because of the time period in which they were together.  Same goes for the nameless wife - she's invented to show that Jack had been married once and he couldn't have married a man so it had to be another female.

 

John Hart comes on the scene in series 2 and although that relationship was totally messed up, it was very representative of who Jack was back then and though he downplays things, I think I lean more on the side of "there was something there" than just messing around.  Now of course, relationships seem to be handled differently in that time so I think any monogamous issues come down more to 51st century than John Hart is male.  Lastly, Angelo is introduced and from what I remember of their scenes (I did manage to what those) Jack wanted him as a companion and the vibe I got is that he was totally open to being serious with him.  That was until Angelo betrayed him.

 

So all of that brings me to Ianto.  If I talk about Ianto in a "because of the writiers/directors" sense, I think the problem with the hot and cold of it all is because RTD didn't bother to sit everyone down and make sure they were all on the same page.  Based on interviews and articles I've read, some people only saw it as a fun fling or a way to pass the time.  One guy who wrote a couple of the novels (don't remember his name or exactly how many books he's written) firmly believed that Jack was just with Ianto because he couldn't be with Gwen and be everything she needed him to be.  So as you can imagine, he wrote the Jack/Ianto relationship as nothing serious or deep.  On the flip side of that, there were a people who championed the relationship and wrote things that they thought advanced the relationship and gave it a bit of depth.  The problem is that both sides wrote and directed and didn't bother to take into account what the others were doing and just writing out their view on things.  It made for some very whiplash episodes (and even moments within an episode).  I do agree that Jack's reaction to Donna and his claim of having done nothing but talk to the Solider in the bar were attempts to show that Jack was in a relationship with Ianto and so was making an effort to curb the flirting (and anything else).

 

But really, when it all comes down to it, I think that Jack's first appearances on Doctor Who were handled better and so his sexual identity was treated with more thought and care.  I think Rose and the Doctor were a perfect example of Jack loving the person/people and not thinking about the gender.  I think the move to Torchwood meant that Jack's sexual identity was treated as more of a joke or the punch line rather than something to be seriously explored.  The patterns that we see are just coincidences of poor handling.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

The relationship side of it is harder, harder with everyone, cause they have different relationships. But it was more of a general manner. Cause the question popped into my head while asking about Jack's omnisexual self. So to me that would mean everyone/everything gets treated equally, so a joke about an old boyfriend should be the same as talking about an old girlfriend or toaster who knows after the volcano revelation LOL

 

But i honestly can't remember aside from Deadline , Jack ever talking about a woman and her sexuality. It's all guys and so far no toasters LOL. So why doesn't he ? Are women i said fairytale and pedestal been used but i don't know maybe more unattainable to Jack. There just isn't the comfortable day to day about him when it comes to women in convo's etc let alone relationships. But then again i really don't know the DW Jack that well

[Swansong]

 

But really, when it all comes down to it, I think that Jack's first appearances on Doctor Who were handled better and so his sexual identity was treated with more thought and care.  I think Rose and the Doctor were a perfect example of Jack loving the person/people and not thinking about the gender.  I think the move to Torchwood meant that Jack's sexual identity was treated as more of a joke or the punch line rather than something to be seriously explored.  The patterns that we see are just coincidences of poor handling.

I agree they did a better job on Doctor Who of showing that aspect of Jack. In terms of Mousey's question we see him flirting equally with men women and aliens. I think there's also a story about him sleeping with his executioners, which is pretty much the only sexy story I remember him telling on Doctor Who and he talks about a couple, but doesn't specify their gender. There may be other stories, but I don't follow Doctor Who that closely. 

 

 

So all of that brings me to Ianto.  If I talk about Ianto in a "because of the writiers/directors" sense, I think the problem with the hot and cold of it all is because RTD didn't bother to sit everyone down and make sure they were all on the same page.  Based on interviews and articles I've read, some people only saw it as a fun fling or a way to pass the time.  One guy who wrote a couple of the novels (don't remember his name or exactly how many books he's written) firmly believed that Jack was just with Ianto because he couldn't be with Gwen and be everything she needed him to be.  So as you can imagine, he wrote the Jack/Ianto relationship as nothing serious or deep.  On the flip side of that, there were a people who championed the relationship and wrote things that they thought advanced the relationship and gave it a bit of depth.  The problem is that both sides wrote and directed and didn't bother to take into account what the others were doing and just writing out their view on things.  It made for some very whiplash episodes (and even moments within an episode).  I do agree that Jack's reaction to Donna and his claim of having done nothing but talk to the Solider in the bar were attempts to show that Jack was in a relationship with Ianto and so was making an effort to curb the flirting (and anything else).

 

That definitely shows on screen. CC was the showrunner and RTD oversaw enough to read the episodes and make the changes that suited him so I have to assume they were, at least in part, fine with it being this vague mess. The only time that changes, and I can't even say for the better, is when they decide to kill off Ianto to cause Jack pain.

 

I think his one off relationships suggest that Jack tends to fall very quickly and very easily. He falls in love immediately for Estelle, he falls immediately for Captain Jack, he falls immediately for Angelo and shacks up with him right away and he apparently never gets over Estelle or Angelo despite his behaviour (can't speak for RCJ because he's never mentioned again, but I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted us to believe he never really got over him either), but outside of that I think it's hard to judge how Jack would be in a relationship with women v. men because the only real examples we have on Torchwood are Gwen and Ianto and both those relationships are clearly determined by the hierarchy of their respected roles on the show. And the only time Ianto is shown as significant to Jack is conveniently after he's killed off and the relationship is no longer going anywhere. Not to mention we see Jack and Gwen's friendship/whatever play out onscreen, but Jack and Ianto's relationship whatever it was developed almost exclusively off screen. Even now it's hard to say what it was or want beyond speculation. I suspect if they did have him a long term relationship with a woman not Gwen they wouldn't portray it in the same way they did his relationship with Ianto just because a guy treating a woman that way would probably be less appealing for the audience (see Rex and Esther and Owen and Tosh before the middle of s2). That may also be part of the reason we see Jack almost exclusively with women.

 

It's amusing to see that continuity on the extra stuff is almost as bad as that on the show. That letter describing the incident with the fairies and the soldiers is dated a year before the incident supposedly happened on the show. lol.

 

 

(Not sure if this is the letter Estelle received about his death cause they send it to a Mrs E. Harkness about her son.  ???)

I think that's supposed to be a letter sent to Real Jack's mother not our Jack.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

Looking back on it, I'm kind of shocked that RTD allowed   his "Gwennie" (hork) to consummate an affair with Owen.

 

More believable that either RTD would keep her character only for Jack, ever un-consummated, ever pearl-clutching -- or only with Rhys the ideal situation for Jack's Big Plan to bring in a woman with "a life outside Torchwood" and thereby keep her appeal for him unbesmirched by someone else's grubby mitts.

 

The whole thing makes me nauseous.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

I just had a thought pop into my head and wanted to share.  In talking about the way Jack seemed to treat women differently than men - and more specifically, how Jack seemed to have more consideration for Gwen's needs by making sure she had a normal life while he didn't seem to care if Ianto got the same - I'd like to throw out the idea that perhaps Jack understood that Gwen wouldn't be strong enough to handle a relationship with him beyond friendship but that Ianto could.  Maybe, we could look at things not as Jack having less respect for Ianto than Gwen, but as Jack knowing that the best thing for Gwen is a normal life because she couldn't handle not having that kind of balance in her life.  That's why he pushes her towards Rhys over and over again.  She needs what Rhys can give her.

 

Ianto is a different type of person and all the horrors and crap that he may have lived through didn't break him but made him stronger.  Made him into someone that could handle Jack.  He's strong enough to handle the times when Jack needs to lean on him, strong enough to handle Jack have a long and sordid past,  and he understands Jack in a way that it seems like not many other people do.  Besides, I get the feeling that him pushing for Ianto to have a normal life wouldn't work with Ianto.  Ianto doesn't need it the way Gwen does.  Ianto can still grow and thrive even while being completely in Jack's world but Gwen would break and Jack and Gwen together would destroy each other.

 

Just something that came to me suddenly while reading fic.

[Luckylyn]

@Dizzy76 I really like your interpretation.

 

I viewed Gwen/Jack of a sort of courtly love built on fantasies  with Ianto/Jack being built on reality.  Gwen veers back and forth between hero worshiping Jack and blaming him for everything that goes wrong.  Ianto sees Jack for exactly who he is.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Swansong]

It's a possibility that Jack understands or believes that Ianto is emotionally stronger to handle a relationship with him than Gwen. I think the problem is, especially in s3, we're given the impression that Jack doesn't really share himself with Ianto, at least not willingly, and that ultimately Ianto knows very little about Jack, even really where he stands with him, even on his proverbial death bed. I don't think it's so much about Jack pushing him  towards a normal life the way he does Gwen, especially since if the show thinks Gwen defines 'normal' that suggests they're working on a very narrow definition of 'normal', I think it's more about how much Ianto's needs, whatever they may be, factor into Jack's consideration of the relationship. I guess my point is that if Jack gets someone who is there for him no matter what, someone he can lean on when he needs it what, in return, does Ianto get from him? I think the issue I have, and this is likely a product of the fact that they are the main characters, is that for both Jack and Gwen their relationships with their respective partners (Ianto and Rhys) are framed almost exclusively in terms of their needs and wants and sometimes it's hard to tell what their partners get out of it beyond the fact that the show wants us to believe that Jack and Gwen are so attractive and so sexy and just so awesome that Ianto and Rhys should feel, I don't, lucky? that they're even in the running regardless of how they're treated.

Having said that I do think, as far as we're allowed to know these characters, Ianto is probably better fitted to be in a relationship with Jack just because he comes off as less judgmental and much more flexible and doesn't seem to require to know everything. I think the fact that Jack feels the need to keep secrets is less of an issue for Ianto. Or at least the Ianto we meet in s1 and s2. Not sure about the one we meet in s3. On the other hand I can also see why those very qualities might make him utterly unsuited to be in a relationship with Jack in that him not pushing might be a sign he lacks a certain amount of confidence about his place in the relationship and he feels that if he pushes too much or demands anything Jack will simply walk away and he's willing to settle for crumbs rather than risk losing Jack.

 

I

[Luckylyn]

I guess my point is that if Jack gets someone who is there for him no matter what, someone he can lean on when he needs it what, in return, does Ianto get from him? I think the issue I have, and this is likely a product of the fact that they are the main characters, is that for both Jack and Gwen their relationships with their respective partners (Ianto and Rhys) are framed almost exclusively in terms of their needs and wants and sometimes it's hard to tell what their partners get out of it

That's a good point.  I think I can see what Jack gets from Ianto but what does Ianto get from Jack? 

[Captanne]

I seem to recall JB saying in an interview that Jack/Gwen could never happen because Jack could never live up to Gwen's demands/expectations.  Or, even want to.

 

ETA:  The question of what Ianto gets from Jack has always been my issue.  However, I'm fine with a father fixation theory.  Ianto looked up to his father* to a certain extent if that adorable and wonderful "Master Tailor" scene and the dialogue in House of the Dead mean anything.  

 

So - for Ianto to look up to Jack as a father figure but then be mature enough to qualify that into an adult relationship with another human being, I'm all for it.

 

Jack is the boss, he's authoritative when he needs to be, he has secrets and a life beyond knowing -- all sort of like a child to a parent -- but then he's a goofball, a screw up and a friend -- all sort of like one would want of a lover.

 

It's very Freudian and I can't do it justice with my cast on -- too much 'splainin' -- but it balances to some semblance of normality and health in my mind.

 

Jack also can speak with Ianto on a Torchwood level -- he can go toe-to-toe with surviving the Cybermen and Daleks.  He can talk about the Doctor with Ianto.  Those are all subjects well within Ianto's wheelhouse.

 

 

*Please, remove all events of CoE from your mind.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

This morning, I had a decent reply laid out but without getting too personal, an emergency visit and good old morphine drugs has rendered me a bit incapable.  So I'll just say that although I totally see your point Swansong, I tend to agree with Captanne's suggestion of removing CoE from the equation because it just doesn't seem to follow the natural progress that (though pitiful indeed) the show had been taking.  BUT...even adding in CoE, I tend to think that even though Ianto feels (rightly so) that Jack had kept a lot of things from him, Jack may have seen it as Ianto knew a lot more than most.  Jack seems to thrive on keeping all of his past secrets locked up and when I look at his past, he's got some good reasons to.  And in terms of Alice, I can't begin to imagine how painful it is to have your daughter flow between hating you to barely tolerating you on a good day.  Alice make it pretty clear that she doesn't really want Jack around her and Stephen on a day to day basis and though she may love him, she resents him something fierce.  From Jack's point of view, not only is Alice and Stephen a part of his messed up past, but still a very painful part of his current life.  Alice also want to be completely separate from Jack's Torchwood life and Ianto is a big part of Torchwood life.  Not telling anyone, even Ianto about Alice can be just as much out of respect for her as it is about keeping that part of his life hidden.

 

I think I would feel differently about Jack not opening up to Ianto in that way if we knew that he had shared the things that came up in CoE with other people...with Gwen.  But both big reveals were horrible and/or painful situations from Jack's past that I'd go so far as to say that he worked hard to keep them hidden.  All that said though, I too would have responded as Ianto did and would have felt pissed off that Jack had once again something else cropping up.  Something else he hadn't told me.  And really, there is over 150 years worth of past that Jack could potentially share that it would feel like no matter how long he was with me, or how much he told me, I'd never really know him. 

 

Captanne, I remember reading that quote from JB when I was going through all the interviews and articles when I finished my binge watching of the show.  But I also ran across another quote that JB said about the relationship and it sounds as if this quote was given after JB gave the one you mentioned.  He talked about Ianto brings out his empathy because he's actually fallen for someone and cares about them.  I just took it to mean that his quote about why not Gwen (and also that his relationship with Ianto was based on lust or something like that) came earlier on in the show (like series 1) and his later quote was given during series 2 or even right before CoE. 

 

Also from Wikipedia, there's a quote mentioned from GDL specifically about what Ianto get's from Jack.  His answer is that he gets support, meaning, and reliability from Jack.  Then there's a mention that both GDL and JB thought that Ianto "brings out the 'human' in Jack as well as his empathy.  I imagine, that as the show progressed, the way both guys saw the relationship progressed and changed as well.  Really that entire first section on Ianto's relationship with Jack has some decent quotes. (The second section also a quote from that novelist that I was mentioning before in the Jack/Ianto thread about why he feels sorry for Ianto and how he think Jack is really in love with Gwen.)

 

Wow, I said I wouldn't be able to get into everything but from the looks of what I just wrote, I am more than fine.  Apologies though if reading any of this was confusing because I am feeling a bit loopy.  :)

[itsmeyousee]

A question Swansong raised when talking about SW is Jack meant to be living full time at the Hub ? Or does he just stay there overnight sometimes ?

[Luckylyn]

SW is interesting because Ianto seemed surprised to see Jack there so late.  There is no other indication that Jack lives elsewhere.   He has a room below his office and we've seen Ianto take Jack's laundry there.  There's no other indication that Jack has a home elsewhere.  I wouldn't be surprised if he had a secret place to go to that the others didn't know about.

[itsmeyousee]

No indication that Ianto lived anywhere either. I mean it looked like he could have slept in the room with Lisa. I just don't know if it's written anywhere in canon that Jack lives at the Hub.

 

I mean it would make sense at that particular time and especially since that's where the Doctors hand is. And Jack is ready for answers and maybe Jack started living at the Hub unintentionally at first. After Alex killed everyone and all of a sudden he was in charge and all by himself.

 

It also makes you wonder how big that room is down there and why is it there ? Like does it lead to a secret exit out of the Hub for Directors or something.

 

But wouldn't everyone know that Jack lived there, the fact that Owen and Tosh and even Suzie didn't know about Jack coming back from the dead is a real stretch. Surely they would know if he lived there , working with them for years. Which makes Suzie coming back to the Plass really stupid LOL

[Luckylyn]

It occurs to me that I have no idea if Jack is human or an alien.   He was born on another planet but could be the decedent of space pioneers from Earth.  He could also be an alien who looks human.  He could be a mix of human and alien since humans and aliens probably intermingle in the future.  I tend to assume he's human, but I just don't know for sure.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Swansong]

Doesn't The Doctor Dances establish Jack as human, albeit a future human? The Doctor aligns Jack with Rose in terms of species. His evolution does seem to be treated as more social and technological rather than genetic.  At least until he's made immortal. I mean the Doctor looks human, but is clearly established as not, but I can't think of anything physically or even genetically that attempts to set Jack apart from Rose or Mickey. I tend to go with human just because I think if RTD wanted us to think of Jack as alien or a human/alien hybrid he wouldn't be subtle about it. They do explicitly establish that humans exist far into the future and the times they become something else they're pretty explicit about that too.

[Dizzy76]

I've been looking to see if I can point to some official Doctor Who/Torchwood stuff to answer you question Luckylyn but so far, the best answer I've come across is that...it's debatable.  In searching, I was reminded of the conversation that the Doctor has with Rose in The Doctor Dances episode.

 

 

JACK: There it is. Hey, they've got Algy on duty. It must be important.
DOCTOR: We've got to get past him.
ROSE: Are the words distract the guard heading in my general direction?
JACK: I don't think that'd be such a good idea.
ROSE: Don't worry I can handle it.
JACK: I've got to know Algy quite well since I've been in town. Trust me, you're not his type. I'll distract him. Don't wait up.
DOCTOR: Relax, he's a fifty first century guy. He's just a bit more flexible when it comes to dancing.
ROSE: How flexible?
DOCTOR: Well, by his time, you lot have spread out across half the galaxy.
ROSE: Meaning?
DOCTOR: So many species, so little time.
ROSE: What, that's what we do when we get out there? That's our mission? We seek new life, and, and
DOCTOR: Dance.

[itsmeyousee]

I always thought Jack was human, he doesn't seem to have anything different body wise external or internal show otherwise. I mean someone would have picked up on a weird gene or DNA sequence or something (i know nothing about medical stuff LOL). But doesn't that change with MD and his whole blood thing is why he is immortal, so something must be alien in there if that's the case. I mean Angelo's granddaughter was talking about the immortal jellyfish and making Jack sound like he wasn't unique not even here on Earth to have immortality as a part of your life cycle. So now i have no idea what Jack is LOL.