Ianto Jones: Knows Everything

[Luckylyn]

On thing I would love to know is what lead Ianto to work for Torchwood 1?  Did he pursue that career or was he recruited?

[Captanne]

There were a lot of young things in that steno pool from the Who episode I can't remember the name of (Army of Ghosts?)  Perhaps he found out about it some way and wanted out of the council housing?  Maybe he was recruited when he proved (revealed?, showed?) his eidetic memory to someone somewhere?  

[Luckylyn]

Oh, how I wish we had an episode with that backstory because Ianto's encyclopedic memory is something I could see a Torchwood operative thinking would be useful.  But under what circumstances would someone at Torchwood had the chance to notice it? Did a teacher at school pick up on his potential and pass that info on to Torchwood.  I could see them planting people in schools to find promising candidates.  I could also see Ianto pursuing a career at Torchwood for his own reasons.  He really seemed invested in it as an organization in a way I don't think the others were.  Jack's recruitment style was basically to stumble upon someone in crisis who coincidentally had a useful skill.  I'm betting Torchwood 1 was much more strategic and thorough in their recruitment.  It would have been interesting to hear about Ianto's early days.  It will always bug me that Ianto was given a background that seemed fertile for storytelling and then the writers barely did anything with it.   There should have been consequences for Jack's decision to ignore Canary Wharf survivors that would have placed Ianto in a position of conflicting loyalties between Torchwood 1 and 3.

[catrox14]

My head!canon is that after Ianto was busted for shoplifting one of the caveats for him not going to jail or paying a fine was signing on with a temp agency that sent him to various jobs one of those being Junior Reseacher at Torchwood which became full time permanent if the worker wanted to do it.  Of course, the other part of my head!canon is that the temp agency was run by Torchwood itself as a recruiting device.  Send scoffflaws to various jobs that were not quite as appealing as Junior Researcher and then send them to Canary Wharf and they are like "Yup, this is better. I'll stay here".

[indeed]

The new audio books had the actress who played Yvonne in a story. It'd be nice if they would come out with another one with both Ianto and Yvonne so we could get some Ianto backstory and more adventures with Torchwood 1.

There is so much story potential for those days that Ianto could have his own series, whether audio or regular book!

[Luckylyn]

I love the idea of Torchwood running a temp agency to secretly recruit employees.   I keep think of Ianto "Super Temp" and how that reminds me of Donna Noble who is one of my favorite Doctor Who companions ever.  Ianto would have been an awesome companion on Doctor Who.

 

This gets me thinking.  Torchwood was designed with the idea of The Doctor as an enemy.   What exactly did Ianto think of The Doctor when Torchwood 1 had that anti-Doctor sentiment while Jack was very much pro-Doctor?

[catrox14]

I've figured Ianto was anti-doctor at Torchwood 1 and then still not particularly thrilled with the Doctor later given his side eyeing Jack having the Doctors hand in a jar and a bit of jealousy about Jack running off to find his Doctor.

[indeed]

He seemed to be jealous of the Doctor, but also in a bit of awe over him when actually interacting with him. He was very deferential IIRC, but then he was also calling Gwen "Ma'am", which he never did before, so that's more on RTD's writing in The Stolen Earth.

ETA: No one really seemed all that anti-Doctor at Torchwood 1 when he was there during the Canary Wharf episodes, so I doubt Ianto really considered him an enemy or anything like the rules stated.

Edited March 18, 2016 by indeed

[Captanne]

I think he was wary and suspicious of the Doctor -- and wisely so. Over the series, the Doctor can be unpredictable.  

 

Also, wicked jealous.  LOL

 

ETA:  I would add that in my head!canon, Ianto finds out about what Ten did to Jack (make him immortal and then act like a cruel horse's ass to him) and be very, very defensive.  That alone would make Ianto act like he didn't like or trust the Doctor.

 

Ten, feh.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Captanne

[Swansong]

TW1 never seemed all that anti the Doctor. Even Yvonne treated him like a celebrity.

 

I always thought Ianto was jealous of the Doctor because the writers were such fanboys and so everyone in their world is either required to be in love with the Doctor or jealous or him, there rarely seemed to be much variety between those states, but it never made much sense from the way they wrote the show. They spent the first season insisting the team barely knew anything about Jack, not even that he could die and revive, let alone about his relationship with the Doctor so what exactly would Ianto even know of Jack's relationship with the Doctor to be jealous of? I mean if there was supposedly all this information about Jack and the Doctor then why did the team think he was ex-CIA in s1 and if there wasn't any information then where did the team manage to become so knowledgeable. The way Jack left would have just created confusion for the team until Jack got back and then he comes back and except for a couple of questions the team never actually seemed that affected by the fact that Jack just left and basically left them in the lurch. Or really that curious. I mean if I'd just found out that my boss couldn't die, was from the future and used to be a companion, and that's just the edited highlights, that would create a lot of curiosity. But the team are just eh. Even the team doctor. Even Ianto really. I mean you're dating a guy who you'd just found out couldn't die before he up and disappeared. But the only time he shows any interest is in S3 so he can play exposition fairy for the new audience.  

 

I always thought it was absurd that Ianto was supposedly so jealous of the Doctor, who barely even showed up in their world and whose relationship with Jack was barely known, but not of Gwen who was actually in Jack's orbit and a genuine potential threat. I mean he's insecure about the the threats that aren't even around, but not of the one that could actually be a threat? That's why I could never take it seriously and just took it as a moment and not a reflection of anything deeper. Of course I largely cringe at how RTD writes Ianto in both those Dr. Who episodes and CoE and in hindsight am glad he didn't do much of the writing in s1 and 2.. Having general insecurities about his place in Jack's life and how important he may or may not be to Jack I can see, but the way they handled his potential jealousy seemed bizarre. I mean I'm glad they didn't show him jealous of Gwen because the way the show treated her was already unbearable enough, but since they insisted on going there with the Doctor and even John isn't that a bit backwards?

 

I was disappointed that they didn't do more with the fact that Ianto was at Canary Wharf though.  That's got to create a lot of complicated feelings and the Doctor was the one who saved the day, but at the same time a lot of people died, even people that he cared about? How did he feel about that? Why was the fact that TW3 and Jack in particular seemed so indifferent to all the people who were lost and the survivors not a bigger deal for him? When Carly, that woman from TW1, showed up in that radio play and the only thing they apparently had to talk about was why Ianto thinks Jack doesn't love him again I just groaned. Why tie the character to Torchwood 1 and it's biggest tragedy and then ignore it. I think It really spoke to how the writers really believed that the only really interesting thing about Ianto was Jack, which I guess ended up being true because that's the only thing they ever bothered to focus on. I always assumed he insisted on wearing a suit and looking so much like a TW drone at TW3 as a passive aggressive dig against Jack's dismissive towards the survivors especially since he puts on a suit right after Jack's made it clear he has no interest in anyone for TW1. Plus he makes the comment about how TW1 would have had the right gear to catch a pteranodon so I just go with that.

 

Did they really think through the fact that Ianto was supposedly such a poor student, but still got into Torchwood 1 which we're told recruited the brightest and the best? I mean obviously academics aren't the only measure of intelligence and aptitude, but that does beg the question how did he end up on their radar? I mean we know  how he was recruited to TW3 because he wanted to be recruited and Jack is, well Jack, but he didn't exactly have the same motivation to be recruited to TW1 and if he didn't have any real skills or education to attract their attention why did they bother? I assume they came to him rather than the other way since I doubt TW1 posted their jobs on Indeed or Monster.com, lol. I kind of like the idea that he wasn't this brilliant student or amazingly skilled guy and that he was ordinary and not necessarily brilliant, but I wish the show had thought even a little bit about how he ended up at TW then. I mean Gwen was supposed to be ordinary too, but it was pretty apparent the show really wanted us to see her as unique and special and the most brilliant person ever, but even though Ianto managed some pretty remarkable feats I never got the impression the writers actually intended him to be that remarkable. 

 

 

 

he was also calling Gwen "Ma'am",

Lol! The show was always so over the top in the cringiest ways with Gwen.

[Captanne]

"Cyberwoman" gave Ianto the richest background of just about any character in Who.  His love affair tied him to the Whoniverse tightly - he wasn't just all moon eyes like Gwen over Jack -- he was in Jack's bed and Jack seemed to reciprocate the genuine affection depending on who was writing the script.  

 

And they had JB with GDL who radiated chemistry together.

 

RTD really missed the boat with Ianto Jones.  He didn't know what he had created.

[Swansong]

 

RTD really missed the boat with Ianto Jones.  He didn't know what he had created.

I feel like he missed the boat with all the characters. For a show where the characters were supposed to be the show's big strength I thought they frequently dropped the ball with the core characters.

[Captanne]

Although I agree in the general, Swansong, I think Ianto Jones out of the whole panoply from Who to Torchwood is the specific one they missed out on.

[Captanne]

Thought this video of a Master Tailor is interesting.  It really drives home the difference between "a master tailor" and a "clerk at Debenham's".  

http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/3PjezI/:1qxE@oC_h:KFYiQUe2/vimeo.com/1213401

[storyskip]

On 3/18/2016 at 6:29 PM, Captanne said:

ETA:  I would add that in my head!canon, Ianto finds out about what Ten did to Jack (make him immortal and then act like a cruel horse's ass to him) and be very, very defensive.  That alone would make Ianto act like he didn't like or trust the Doctor.

 

Ten, feh.

Ten had nothing to do with Jack's immortality.  It happened during Nine's watch and even then it had nothing to do with the Doctor.

It was the result of Rose Tyler as Bad Wolf.  "I bring life"

Nine is the Doctor who then abandoned Jack, though it could be argued that Nine was in the middle of regeneration and didn't realize what had happened.   Last he knew Jack was dead.  If you want a heart-wrenching scene, watch the end of "The Parting of Ways" where Jack runs in on the TARDIS just starting to dematerialize.

Not saying that as time went on the Doctor, now in his tenth regeneration, didn't learn about Jack and obviously avoided him, which was definitely rubbish and certainly grounds to make Ianto wonder why Jack was so loyal to the Time Lord.

[catrox14]

I've always been a little confused as to whether it was Nine or Ten that left Jack behind. Because it was right when Nine was regenerating...

[Captanne]

Disregard.  I wrote it was 10 but now that I think about it, it was 9 who left Jack behind.  But I'm not sure he knew the effect on Jack.

The really egregious treatment of Jack and his immortality was 10 who threw that back in Jack's face as he was saving the universe with the very curse the Doctor placed on him.  I'll find the video when I can.  That scene is so gut wrenching because the Doctor was also, in effect, telling Jack to stop being in love with him.  There is so much going on in that scene and Tennant and Barrowman did a wonderful job -- giving those in the know a gut wrench while keeping it just subtle enough that, if you didn't know the full story, you still got a good performance in the moment.

 

Here's the video clip:  

 

 

ETA:  I'm not sure I would say "it had nothing to do with the Doctor" -- Jack had definitely joined the Doctor's team and was fighting the Daleks (shudder) on another level of the game planet thing.  He was giving the Doctor and Rose time to save the day by holding off the Daleks in a last stand that was surely doomed.  It was Rose's impetuous looking into the heart of the TARDIS that made her omniscient.  So, the Doctor had an integral, if passive, role in Jack's curse.  No Team, no TARDIS, no doomsday scenario but for the presence of the Doctor who was running the whole escapade.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Captanne

[storyskip]

But the Doctor didn't make Rose look into the heart of the TARDIS, that was her choice.  

You can pick up the age old argument that has been laid at the Doctor's feet, that he makes the people around him into the instruments he himself claims to abhor and that is a completely solid, if deeply philosophical argument.  Yes, it can all be walked back and laid at the Doctor's feet but at what point do we say that Companions are making their own choice?

After all, one of the biggest parts of Martha's legacy was the fact that she is one of the few companions who realized traveling with the Doctor had no good end and walked away from him before she lost her life or her sanity.

However, in terms of direct cause and effect, the Doctor did not curse Jack to immortality.  In fact the Doctor explains, he runs from Jack because Jack is an abomination to Time, one of those fixed points the Doctor tries to avoid. 

If anyone is responsible for cursing Jack it is Rose and the TARDIS.  They were the two instruments who inflicted immortality on Jack, the Doctor was begging Rose to stop and let it go but Rose was overwhelmed by the Bad Wolf and her power. 

The Doctor and Jack's relationship was always difficult.  If you go back over it from the Empty Child forward, the Doctor was never at ease with Jack. Jack was the symbol of humanity tinkering with Time of their own accord, their own gain and benefit, and the Doctor didn't like it; he found it meddlesome.  Layer in the tension around Rose, who was obviously the draw to both the Doctor and Jack, and it was always an uneasy and unbalanced relationship at best.

Jack loved the Doctor.  The Doctor (Nine and Ten) at best tolerated Jack.  So from that respect, I have no doubt that as Ianto's feelings moved from 'using him' to genuine, he would be conflicted over Jack's obviously unrequited love for the Doctor.

[Luckylyn]

Also, Ianto was part of Torchwood 1 which viewed the Doctor as an enemy.  I think Ianto would have some mixed feelings about The Doctor.  I wish the show had tapped into Ianto's history at Canary Wharf more especially since it's a significant tie to Doctor Who.  I don't remember Torchwood explicitly stating what pov Ianto has about the Doctor other than Ianto being concerned that Jack would leave to run after him permanently.  Ianto had reasons to be weary of the Doctor that had nothing to do with Jack but that was never explored.

[Captanne]

I also always felt that the Doctor avoided Jack because he was an abomination and the Doctor feels responsible for making him that way. Whether there is agreement on the Doctor's culpability remains to be seen. (Personally, I do hold the character responsible.)

 

ETA:  Missing out on Ianto's backstory (and the actor's chemistry with Barrowman), is a great shame.   Such a missed opportunity!

Edited October 30, 2016 by Captanne

[wayne67]

I've come late to the party and just did a rewatch of COE and a first watch of MD (God that felt like life times) and was wondering what people considered the best Ianto episodes.

I'm not sure I really want to rewatch all of season 1 & 2 considering what I remember from all the excessive Gwen fawning but I would like to see some of the episodes that feature Ianto heavily or at least had some good Ianto moments in it.

[Luckylyn]

5 hours ago, wayne67 said:

I've come late to the party and just did a rewatch of COE and a first watch of MD (God that felt like life times) and was wondering what people considered the best Ianto episodes.

I'm not sure I really want to rewatch all of season 1 & 2 considering what I remember from all the excessive Gwen fawning but I would like to see some of the episodes that feature Ianto heavily or at least had some good Ianto moments in it.

Cyberwoman (flawed episode but does explain Ianto's motivations for joining Torchood 2), Fragments, From Out of the Rain, Countrycide,  Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (that little moment where Ianto startled John is one of my favorites.  I'm firmly convince that Ianto's the only one on the team John is capable of fearing and it all goes back to that moment when he had to reassess his first assumptions about Ianto).  There are some great Ianto moments in a few episodes like his "pray they survive" badass scene in Meat.   There's the Jack/Ianto scene in To the Last Man. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by Luckylyn
forgot to add an episode

[wayne67]

6 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

Cyberwoman (flawed episode but does explain Ianto's motivations for joining Torchood 2), Fragments, From Out of the Rain, Countrycide.  There are some great Ianto moments in a few episodes like his "pray they survive" badass scene in Meat.   There's the Jack/Ianto scene in To the Last Man. 

Thanks. I've picked up the rewatch of season 1 from Cyberwoman, I did find Ianto somewhat insufferable in that episode but I at least understood his motivations, though I did find it frustrating that they didn't even make a token effort at addressing that poor pizza girl that got body jacked then had her body pumped full of bullets at all. You'd think they'd bypass getting things delivered to their secret base on general principle but apparently not. Currently watching Countrycide, I'd forgotten that Ianto and Tosh had ever actually spoken to each other for such a long period of time. I haven't rewatched this show in years. 

[Luckylyn]

12 minutes ago, wayne67 said:

Thanks. I've picked up the rewatch of season 1 from Cyberwoman, I did find Ianto somewhat insufferable in that episode but I at least understood his motivations, though I did find it frustrating that they didn't even make a token effort at addressing that poor pizza girl that got body jacked then had her body pumped full of bullets at all. You'd think they'd bypass getting things delivered to their secret base on general principle but apparently not. Currently watching Countrycide, I'd forgotten that Ianto and Tosh had ever actually spoken to each other for such a long period of time. I haven't rewatched this show in years. 

I really wish we could have gotten a Ianto/Tosh friendship.  I think they are a good combination to watch.  I love their scenes together in Exit Wounds.   They really were a kickass team.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Luckylyn

[wayne67]

26 minutes ago, Luckylyn said:

I really wish we could have gotten a Ianto/Tosh friendship.  I think they are a good combination to watch.  I love their scenes together in Exit Wounds.   They really were a kickass team.

It was interesting hearing Ianto's thoughts during the Greeks bearing Gifts. So calm on the outside but dying on the inside. So sad but so typical of depression. 

[Captanne]

Ianto was an amazing character.  He had so much potential -- as a stand alone and also for the entire Whovian franchise.  Unfortunately, the plotting from episode to episode seemed like there was no one at the helm and then the person who was supposed to be in control decided to kill the character off.  I am very bitter -- from July 9, 2009 to today.

[Luckylyn]

9 hours ago, Captanne said:

Ianto was an amazing character.  He had so much potential -- as a stand alone and also for the entire Whovian franchise.  Unfortunately, the plotting from episode to episode seemed like there was no one at the helm and then the person who was supposed to be in control decided to kill the character off.  I am very bitter -- from July 9, 2009 to today.

I'm still not over Ianto's death.  The wasted potential really upset me.  He had connections to Dr. Who that were never explored, and I still want to know about the other Canary Wharf survivors.   He would have been an awesome companion.   I'm very curious what a Doctor/Ianto dynamic would have been considering Ianto's history with Torchwood 1.  Here was this fascinating character with a background that could have launched interesting stories just thrown away.

[Captanne]

I am convinced I will never get over it.  (Hysterical woman, indeed.)

[indeed]

On January 29, 2017 at 9:05 PM, Luckylyn said:

I really wish we could have gotten a Ianto/Tosh friendship.  I think they are a good combination to watch.  I love their scenes together in Exit Wounds.   They really were a kickass team.

I liked the time they spent together (with Jack) in Combat, too.  That's about all I liked from that episode...except for the grapes scene, of course, and Gwen getting sidelined from the main mission so there was a chance to focus on the others.  

Jack/Ianto/Tosh was fun (Combat)...Jack/Ianto/Owen was fun (Something Borrowed)...