Ianto Jones: Knows Everything

[Hana Chan]

I think the fact that Ianto worked for Torchwood as an archivist long before he met Jack  really put him in a position to have a stronger understanding and open mindedness to the weirdness that goes hand in hand with being around Jack. Then we had him having a front row seat to witnessing (and surviving) the Battle of Canary Warf and likely seeing The Doctor saving the day. Unlike the rest of Torchwood 3, Ianto arrived already well versed in a lot of the complexities of the greater universe and the "timey whimey" confusion. He simply would have had accesses to pretty much every scrap of knowledge that Torchwood had available regarding the Doctor, time theory and all the alien species that have had contact with Earth in the past century or so. Even if a large percentage of that information was speculation or theory, it still would have given him an understanding that was really unique among the rest of the Torchwood 3 personnel.

 

Another thing that makes Ianto stand out - everyone else in the group (Owen, Tosh & Gwen) join Torchwood basically by being in the wrong place at the wrong time and stumbling into something (or in Owen's case, having an alien experience impact his life unexpectedly). Ianto would have had to take some proactive action in seeing out Torchwood and actively seeking employment (whereas Owen and Tosh were more or less drafted).

[Swansong]

I don't know. He does seem to love stopwatches and timing things.

 

I tend to think Ianto accepts that Jack can't die or stay dead. By then he's probably seen all kinds of weird things and had a girlfriend who was cyberized so I can see him taking Jack's 'quirk' in stride. But whether he could really grasp the idea of immortality as anything than an intellectual exercise I'm not sure.I'm not sure how anyone, even Jack, would really grasp the concept of living literally forever. I mean even the Doctor doesn't really live forever although he can live for a very long time. That's something that seems so unique to Jack. Ianto does worry that Jack won't remember him in a thousand years, but honestly if he doesn't even feel sure Jack loves him in the here and now, as suggested in the Deadline and COE,  while he's still alive, being remembered in a thousand years seems like it should be the least of his concerns. Plus Ianto seems convinced that he's only going to be around for a couple more years, five at most. So if anything I'd imagine he'd more concerned about how little time they actually likely to have together than how much time Jack has. He does sort of allude to that in their convo in COE, but it does seem like we're supposed to believe he's more concerned with his ultimate legacy in Jack's long life than what they actually are together.

 

Ianto does seem to grasp the idea that life is short and that you need to take your moments while you can somewhat better than Jack  which I found a bit odd. You'd think someone who has lived as long as Jack has and seen as much loss as Jack has and watched Torchwood agents come and go would appreciate the concept of gathering rosebuds while you can and all that. But he's the one who acts like they have all the time in the world to faff about figuring things out. I guess because he does. But you'd think he'd appreciate that Ianto doesn't.

[Luckylyn]

Ianto is unique in that he has all that background experience in Torchwood 1, and he aggressively perused working at Torchwood 3 initially for Lisa.  Why does Ianto stay after Cyberwoman?  I think he's invested in Torchwood itself.   Even if Jack were to disappear permanently I think Ianto would still have stayed on.

[Swansong]

 

I think he's invested in Torchwood itself.   Even if Jack were to disappear permanently I think Ianto would still have stayed on.

I think that's true. I know fanfic tends to write Ianto as devastated and unable to cope when Jack leaves at the end of s1, but if anything it seemed to be mostly fine with it. 

[itsmeyousee]

Ianto is unique in that he has all that background experience in Torchwood 1, and he aggressively perused working at Torchwood 3 initially for Lisa.  Why does Ianto stay after Cyberwoman?  I think he's invested in Torchwood itself.   Even if Jack were to disappear permanently I think Ianto would still have stayed on.

I completely agree, cause Torchwood doesn't mean Jack for Ianto. I think part of it is TW is all Ianto has left but also it's his job and he does it well and he likes doing it. I would love to know how Ianto joined TW. Did he meet someone at TW1 ? that brought him into Torchwood or did apply for a research job and it turned out to be about aliens. Was he headed hunted ?

 

I think that's true. I know fanfic tends to write Ianto as devastated and unable to cope when Jack leaves at the end of s1, but if anything it seemed to be mostly fine with it. 

I don't read that type of Fanfic. It makes no sense to me, look at everything we have seen Ianto go through and Jack buggering off breaks him, i don't think so. Aside from that i think Ianto would feel guilty if he left the others to cope by themselves. Mainly cause just as a person Ianto will put other people before himself.

 

Plus as i mentioned above i think Ianto really likes his job. He would have left to protect Lisa if he could have saved her but i don't really see any other scenerio in which Ianto leave unless it protects someone he loves.

[Captanne]

In my old age, I only gravitate toward fanfic that shows Ianto as an adult man who deals with life as it is.  He's got to be true to character (fiercely loyal, clever, funny as hell, chicken shit, and a scrappy survivor.)

 

Otherwise, if the author turns him into a love lorn sap, I can't bear to read it.

[Luckylyn]

 

I would love to know how Ianto joined TW. Did he meet someone at TW1 ? that brought him into Torchwood or did apply for a research job and it turned out to be about aliens. Was he headed hunted ?

I'm dying to find out that back story.  Also, did he and Lisa meet while working for Torchwood 1 or were they already together before Ianto started working there?

 

I still wonder about what Ianto's apartment looked like.  He's the only one whose home was never shown on the show.

[Swansong]

 

Also, did he and Lisa meet while working for Torchwood 1 or were they already together before Ianto started working there?

I think the radioplay Submission suggested they met on the job, but yeah it would have been nice to know some of these details.

[itsmeyousee]

I'm dying to find out that back story.  Also, did he and Lisa meet while working for Torchwood 1 or were they already together before Ianto started working there?

 

I still wonder about what Ianto's apartment looked like.  He's the only one whose home was never shown on the show.

It's sorta described in the audio book Ghost Train Luckylyn. A one bedroom apartment, neat and tidy with a really nice TV but no video games according to Rhys LOL

 

I think the radioplay Submission suggested they met on the job, but yeah it would have been nice to know some of these details.

I agree swansong  to me it seemed like Ianto dated a fair bit but once he meet Lisa at work he was off the market. Mainly cause his relationship with Carly seemed casual and she realised as soon as he meet Lisa that was it.

[Luckylyn]

I would so love a prequel showcasing Torchwood 1.   I'm disappointed that Submission is the only reunion of Torchwood 1 survivors.  I feel like there's a story that could have been told that involved Ianto reconnecting with colleagues from his past.

[Swansong]

 

I feel like there's a story that could have been told that involved Ianto reconnecting with colleagues from his past.

I would have loved that. The Torchwood 1 survivor's club.

[Captanne]

Well, we did have that snippet from the radio show, "Submission" where he reconnected with a prior colleague (and lover?)   Oh, yeah, and House of the Dead (*love*) with his father. (CoE is deadtome so I'm not including his family even though they were a highlight of an otherwise disastrous series.)

 

Damn, when I think how cool this show could have been......

 

I'm not saying it should have been the "Jack and Ianto Show" but had that relationship been treated with any smidgen of respect, they could have had some really great stories and performances out of the creative writing team, JB, and GDL.  It even could have included Gwen as the neat sidekick to the twosome.  (Three friends with sidekicks has been a successful trope forever -- from Three's Company to Being Human.)  You can have an entire ensemble cast that has, at its core, three.  With the chemistry between JB and GDL the sky was the limit, really.

 

ETA:  A bit of continuity in Ianto's character is the fact that with every relationship we're aware of, he's incredibly monogamous and loyal.  Personally, I find that very appealing and I'm glad it's a character trait that stayed in his storyline even through CoE.  That's one small part of his character they didn't rape.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

I think the writers saw Ianto as only an appendage to Jack and did not realize the stories Ianto's background could generate.  Even if Jack and Ianto broke up Ianto still would be interesting on his own, but the writers did not see that.  Ianto died to serve Jack's story, but I don't think it served the show as a whole. The Team could have worked as three.  Ianto did not have to die.   Plus, I'm sick of Jack constantly having to suffer either physically or emotionally.  Ianto alive could have served Jack's story too if that's the only purpose the writers had for Ianto.  Jack hates Torchwood 1, but Ianto would probably had some loyalties there.  The conflict that could have erupted in a Torchwood 1 storyline could have been great to watch.

[indeed]

I think MD could have only benefited from Ianto's inclusion and getting the "team" back together with Jack having to really reconsider the benefits of mortality. Instead the impact of Ianto's death was pretty much wasted IMO.

As for Ianto being loyal and monogamous, only GDL himself went against the grain (AFAIAA) in his Torchwood comic, Shrouded.

[itsmeyousee]

As for Ianto being loyal and monogamous, only GDL himself went against the grain (AFAIAA) in his Torchwood comic, Shrouded.

Didn't GDL also think Ianto was doing Jack while Lisa was alive as well LOL As much as i love GDL , he does love a darker side and Ianto really didn't have one of those and i think GDL wished he did LOL

 

I loved that Lisa was also a constant and Ianto loving her didn't mean he loved Jack any less or more. They are just both people that Ianto loved and he is loyal and protective and will do anything for people he loves. And i love that about him

[Captanne]

I think he was "doing" Jack while  Lisa was alive as well.  But I think it was that Ianto would do anything to get a job at Torchwood in order to save Lisa's life -- including seduce the Big Boss whom he didn't know at all but I'm sure Jack's reputation preceded him and everyone knew he was a rake at Torchwood One.

 

That's my opinion and it's a minority one.

 

ETA:  Is the comic canon?  I haven't read it because it doesn't interest me.  (So far, I've taken the show and the radio plays as canon.  I hedge on the internet posts that were done by members of the series team.)

Edited August 4, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

Aww lol I think Ianto has a dark side, but I tend to like the fact that it's not necessarily the most significant aspect of him. Both he and Tosh have been through some dark stuff, but neither of them come off as jaded as they likely should. Which is why it makes me particularly sad that the show (and Jack by extension) seems so willing to write them off as lost causes except as fodder for Torchwood to chew up and spit out.

[itsmeyousee]

I think the graphic novel is like all of the official stories captanne whether they are Radio plays or Audio books or Novels or even the Captain Blogs. They are meant to be canon according to RTD.

 

 

Maybe i should have said Ianto doesn't have a natural dark side, not that he couldn't have gone there. But it doesn't sit well with him, he shows too much remorse i think for it to be natural. And i would put Tosh in the same boat, cause they get there are consequences to your actions. Jack gets it but sometimes ignores it, Owen and Gwen don't get it.

[Captanne]

Whoa -- I thought only the radio plays are additional canon according to RTD.  I've never heard that the audio books or novels are.

 

Star Trek -- the originator of modern fandom, fanfiction and novelization as we know it today --  (Mind you, I'm not discounting the old Sherlock Holmes stories and etc. -- I just mean the modern, trinket buying, ComicCon attendee sort of fandom) -- always held that the original novelizations were not canon.  I have a friend who is a "tie in" novelist and he's always told me that his novels are not to be considered canon.  (He wrote some of the Highlander novels and a Hulk novel.  Now he works on his own original series, Sword of Dracula.)

 

ETA:  My friend is Jason Henderson who wrote two independent novels as well, "Iron Thane" which is great and "Spawn of Loki" which is tougher going and is the beginning of his move to horror comics.  He and I went to law school together twenty years ago.  I think he works for MCI or Sprint now full-time.  I didn't mean to be cryptic.  I was wrapped up in my comment -- LOL.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, I can't remember in which interview I read it from but RTD has said that everything that's released officially as Torchwood is considered canon.  That's why I always thought it horrible that there wasn't better communication between everyone before they wrote/released stuff.  And of course we are talking about RTD so he could have very well contradicted himself later on.

[indeed]

The "tie in" stuff contradicts too much with the broadcast BBC Torchwood. AFAIAC only the series and, to a lesser extent, the radio plays are canon--I don't care what RTD proclaims. So, basically, people can judge for themselves what is canon IMO.

I think Ianto would agree with me. (There, my post is on topic now.)

Edited August 5, 2014 by indeed

[Captanne]

As a good archivist, Ianto would be looking for primary source documentation on the "tie in" rule and then filing it accordingly.

[Dizzy76]

Getting myself worked up again about how Ianto was handled/depicted in COE, it made me wonder how the rest of you guys deal with the show revealing that Ianto was a liar (and in one of the final moments where he's talked about - big reveal!).  Do some of you disregard that bit?  Do any of you try and work out how both Rhiannon and Ianto were telling the truth (like I do)?  Is there anyone who has no problem with what COE gave us concerning him?

[Captanne]

It

 

broke

 

my

 

heart.

(To paraphrase Tosh.)

[indeed]

I don't let COE ruin that moment in SB. I think Jack knew and Ianto knew Jack knew. Gwen was just clueless as evidenced by her not knowing that ice cream gives him headaches.

OR there are two Iantos running around Cardiff (well, one now *sob*)--one who likes Ice cream and has a master tailor dad who hangs out with Gwen that Rhiannon doesn't know about and one who hates ice cream, tells Jack everything, and has a story about his father that is more complicated, but Jack still plays along so they can have sexy fun times with measuring tapes and inseams. The one still alive cashed out Ianto's Torchwood savings and is living on an island somewhere. Little does he know, John Hart has stumbled upon his secret and is currently debating about letting Jack know about the Eye Candy sighting...

Can you tell I'm procrastinating? LOL

[Captanne]

I refuse to believe any of the deviations from CoE.  Ianto didn't lie, his father was a Master Tailor (in the Saville Row meaning of the term) and Ianto is not a liar to the people he loves just to crack a joke.

 

CoE treated the fandom of Torchwood like shit.  Like absolute shit.  They ravaged Ianto's character by turning him into a whining, lying, idiotic pansy and they turned Jack into a snarky, cruel shithead who not only sells children into slavery but has a reputation for doing so that's known around the planet if not the galaxy and RTD called his audience "Nine Hysterical Women" to their faces.  They were hitting the "asshole" engine on all cylinders.  

 

Ugh.

 

Indeed you're much more positive about the whole thing than I am.

[Swansong]

It makes me think the writers don't really pay attention to what they write. If it was just Gwen I could buy him fudging his background , but Jack had a pretty good idea of Ianto's background before he hired Ianto which Ianto knew so what was the point of this lie. To prove to Jack what an incompetent liar he is? It felt like a bit of a cheap dig considering they'd already killed him off and it didn't exactly attempt to tell us much about Ianto. I don't really ignore COE, but l'm now convinced Ianto spent his formative years reading 19th century fiction and developed a weird fetish for old-fashioned things like stopwatches and paper diaries and men in period costumes because unless his father was a tailor or sewed in some capacity it seem like an odd job for a guy his age to settle on just out of thin air. I mean why Master Tailor? Are they still a particular thing in Wales?

[Luckylyn]

 

It makes me think the writers don't really pay attention to what they write. If it was just Gwen I could buy him fudging his background , but Jack had a pretty good idea of Ianto's background before he hired Ianto which Ianto knew so what was the point of this lie.

Exactly,  Fragments made it clear that Jack did a background check on Ianto and that Ianto knew about it. 

 

Trying to make Ianto into a liar after he's dead and can't defend himself just pissed me off and left me bewildered since it made no sense with what we'd seen before.

[Captanne]

It was a cheap shot and shitty.

 

Quite frankly it told me a whole lot more about RTD than it did fictional characters who only lasted for two dependable seasons.  I will never knowingly watch another RTD vehicle again.  I said that in July of 2009 and I still say it.

 

I have no reason to trust him with the dishwater let alone characters he creates who, Heaven forbid, become beloved.

 

It worried me even more that he seemed -- in the media -- to actually take pleasure in his audience's anguished response.  He was certainly dismissive.

 

Give your audience something intelligent and in character and ultimately tragic and you've got a brilliant if sad story to tell.  Give them inconsistent character assassination and mindless violence because you enjoy it and you're nothing more than a mediocre pornographer.

[itsmeyousee]

Getting myself worked up again about how Ianto was handled/depicted in COE, it made me wonder how the rest of you guys deal with the show revealing that Ianto was a liar (and in one of the final moments where he's talked about - big reveal!).  Do some of you disregard that bit?  Do any of you try and work out how both Rhiannon and Ianto were telling the truth (like I do)?  Is there anyone who has no problem with what COE gave us concerning him?

I'm on the both Ianto and Rhi were telling the truth Dizzy   Going purely on COE even though the Radio Play HOTD does back up what Ianto told Jack in SB and it's seems most people here are taking what the Radio Plays say as canon.

 

But what makes me think it's not a lie and more something Gwen has overheard and tries to connect with Rhi with., is Rhiannon reaction. She knows what Gwen is going to say. There isn't one ounce of surprise or doubt in Rhi, she knows exactly what Ianto would have said about their Dad. So i think it's a Jones Family thing.Ianto and Rhiannon see their dad in very different light. Rhi is clearly a Dad's girl and Ianto isn't Dad's boy

 

Now we have no reference to understand it and all we get it Gwen's normal "bug eyed" response and since Gwen is the story teller and Gwen thinks she has been lied to , we are supposed to think that , i assume.

 

But they have already shown in the show, that Gwen and Ianto don't have a more personal relationship outside of work, with the whole ice cream convo. And the fact that Gwen doesn't  know Ianto even has a sister and that she has children. Jack tells Gwen this. So i find it very unbelievable that Ianto would have talked about his Family at all to Gwen, let alone his Dad which Ianto clearly has issues with..

 

I think it's more likely that Gwen has overheard Jack teasing Ianto is some fashion and when she is struggling to say she knew Ianto well. to Rhi  And Gwen is clearly struggling, cause all she comes up with is his love of coffee, then she says Ianto used to talk about Rhi and the kids all the time. But clearly Ianto hasn't since Gwen didn't know about them and Gwen mentions his Dad and how proud Ianto was of him. And that's the moment cause this is when Rhiannon changes her whole demeanor and Rhi asks what Ianto has said and Gwen pulls out the "master tailor" and Rhiannon knows already what Ianto would have said.

 

So like i mentioned before i believe this was a Jones family deal but we just don't know the context of it. So Ianto didn't lie to Jack (smiles)

[Swansong]

 

Now we have no reference to understand it and all we get it Gwen's normal "bug eyed" response and since Gwen is the story teller and Gwen thinks she has been lied to , we are supposed to think that , i assume.

I don't think the point is that Ianto may or may not have told Gwen this story. I think the real point is that we know he told it to Jack and that of all the people to supposedly tell this to if it was supposed to be a lie all along Jack makes the least sense because Jack should already know it's a lie since he had Ianto's background checked out and told him so which we are told in Fragments.

 

If it was just about Gwen telling Rhiannon without the previous Jack factor I'd just assume that she was saying anything she could to curry favour with Rhiannon and not necessarily that Ianto had actually told her any of that stuff because COE doesn't exactly set up the idea that Gwen knows much about Ianto's background. Jack is the one who has to tells her Ianto has a niece and a nephew.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

I don't think the point is that Ianto may or may not have told Gwen this story. I think the real point is that we know he told it to Jack and that of all the people to supposedly tell this to if it was supposed to be a lie all along Jack makes the least sense because Jack should already know it's a lie since he had Ianto's background checked out and told him so which we are told in Fragments.

Except why is it a lie ?

 

No one seemed to think it was a lie in SB, it's only Gwen's reaction in COE from what i can tell that people think Ianto is a liar. Then it becomes what a stupid lie cause Jack would have already known the truth since he did a background check on Ianto.

 

And i have never thought Ianto lied. I was really surprised when i came onto boards and discovered this and it all comes from believing Gwen above everything else as far as a i can tell. Watching COE Ianto isn't a liar, Gwen had no idea who he was on a personal level and it's Gwen that is BS Rhiannon to get her to do what she needs to do and Gwen fucks it up by including something that Rhi knows is untrue and that's that Ianto was proud of his dad. Then the "master tailor" thing comes from that and HOTD clearly has dad as some sort of tailor, so maybe he was and lost his job or whatever. And  Ianto prefers the older stories of what dad was rather than who Dad is when he is growing up, i don't know. But it's clearly a Jones family thing and that's something Gwen knows bugger all about.

[Dizzy76]

...HOTD clearly has dad as some sort of tailor, so maybe he was and lost his job or whatever. And  Ianto prefers the older stories of what dad was rather than who Dad is when he is growing up, i don't know. But it's clearly a Jones family thing and that's something Gwen knows bugger all about.

 

This right here is how I decided to interpret things once I had heard HotD. Well, more like his dad was a master at tailoring but then something happened and he ended up having to work at the department store.  Maybe during this time their dad got more forceful with Ianto.  Maybe this is the time when he began putting more pressure on Ianto and "pushed too hard."  So Ianto likes to remember his father as the master tailor because he liked that guy more.  That's when things were good.  That's maybe the time period when his dad took him to the theater.  Rhiannon has a different relationship with their father so she doesn't have the same issues as Ianto.  She had no need to try and remember him differently than what he was in the end.

[itsmeyousee]

I agree Dizzy that HOTD certainly gave us more context for what was happening in the Jones Family. But i still don't think Ianto lied to Jack in SB or even thought he could get away with such a stupid lie, based on Gwen's reaction in COE. I think Gwen was full of it in COE and i still do, even being on my own with these thoughts LOL

[Swansong]

 

No one seemed to think it was a lie in SB, it's only Gwen's reaction in COE from what i can tell that people think Ianto is a liar. Then it becomes what a stupid lie cause Jack would have already known the truth since he did a background check on Ianto.

We weren't given any reason to believe it was a lie in Something Borrowed. Or in Fragments or anywhere else in s2. Rhiannon is the reason for the doubt because she's the one who suggests there's some doubt about their father being a master tailor. It's got nothing to do with believing Gwen or Gwen's reaction. It's all to do with Rhiannon's comment. If you like it's Ianto's comment v. Rhiannon's comment.

Edited August 6, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, Gwen was never an issue for me.  But the way Rhiannon corrects Gwen and tells her that no, their father worked at Debenhams really did paint the picture that Ianto had lied about that part of his life. Gwen was there to represent us.  So Gwen not really knowing Ianto meant that we didn't really know Ianto.

[itsmeyousee]

I didn't see that and i still don't, Ianto and Rhi obviously see their dad very differently and we don't know what the deal was within the Jones Family. But since Rhiannon was expecting the answer Gwen gave, there has to be some sort of history behind it. Ianto isn't just plucking this answer out of thin air in SB. I mean they don't even agree on how Ianto broke his leg and Ianto took off as soon as dad died, so there has to be a mass of history we just don't know about. How does any of that make Ianto a liar ?

[Swansong]

 

How does any of that make Ianto a liar ?

Well it suggests that there's another story and Ianto's may not be the truth? Certainly it raises doubt on the veracity of his story. I mean it's possible his father was a master tailor, but lost that job and became something else, that Rhiannon was lying just to wind Gwen up and any no. of interpretations, but it's not as if we're ever going to be privy to that because Ianto was killed off and if the show didn't expend much energy developing him when he was around they're hardly likely to do it now he's dead.

 

I mean the show gives us some idea why there might be a discrepancy between Rhiannon thinking their dad injured Ianto by accident and Ianto thinking it was deliberate because his dad was always hard on him, but they give us no idea why there would be a discrepancy over what their dad does for a living when in normal circumstances that would be a fairly straight-forward thing to answer beyond the suggestion that one of them is lying.

[Captanne]

Although the idea of Rhiannon's lie being the real one is very appealing -- I just don't see it.  We are given Rhiannon -- a character who is fairly lovable and clearly fond of her brother.  As I recall, we weren't given a single reason to think she was underhanded or a liar.  Ianto, oth, as we know him, is more than capable of lying.  (To wit:  The Cyberman in the basement.  Oops.)

 

However, unless I'm misremembering (which is entirely possible), he never lied about anything frivolous.  He is not a casual liar.  He is not a pathological liar.

 

There was no given motivation for him to lie to Jack about his father in SB and I don't see any reason for Rhiannon to be lying in CoE (other than what I would be reading into her and I don't want to do that.)

 

Personally, I think it was just lazy writing and research along with lazy oversight by the behind-the-scenes team.  More than likely, GDL wasn't even around anymore since his contract ended with Day Four so he couldn't fight it.  Who knows if he would.  This is a job for him; and he probably wouldn't fall on his sword over Ianto Jones' character-integrity post-mortem.

[Ceindreadh]

Getting myself worked up again about how Ianto was handled/depicted in COE, it made me wonder how the rest of you guys deal with the show revealing that Ianto was a liar (and in one of the final moments where he's talked about - big reveal!).  Do some of you disregard that bit?  Do any of you try and work out how both Rhiannon and Ianto were telling the truth (like I do)?  Is there anyone who has no problem with what COE gave us concerning him?

 

As far as I'm concerned, COE never happened.

There were only 26 episodes of Torchwood and Ianto isn't dead.

(After COE, I stopped watching DW until RTD had left the show because I didn't trust him not to screw over another fandom)

[itsmeyousee]

Well it suggests that there's another story and Ianto's may not be the truth? Certainly it raises doubt on the veracity of his story. I mean it's possible his father was a master tailor, but lost that job and became something else, that Rhiannon was lying just to wind Gwen up and any no. of interpretations, but it's not as if we're ever going to be privy to that because Ianto was killed off and if the show didn't expend much energy developing him when he was around they're hardly likely to do it now he's dead.

 

I mean the show gives us some idea why there might be a discrepancy between Rhiannon thinking their dad injured Ianto by accident and Ianto thinking it was deliberate because his dad was always hard on him, but they give us no idea why there would be a discrepancy over what their dad does for a living when in normal circumstances that would be a fairly straight-forward thing to answer beyond the suggestion that one of them is lying.

But why does it have to be an either or situation ? It suggests to me that there is a lot more to the story. Maybe Ianto only likes to remember the nicer things about his Dad. I just don't automatically go to Ianto is lying. Rhiannon expects Ianto to have said that, so none of it's new and that's why i go big family deal.

 

And we actually don't know about Ianto's broken leg. We have Ianto POV and Rhiannon POV and Rhiannon actually blames Ianto. She says "you should have held on tighter". She clearly sees her dad in a good way and Ianto did but that changed, cause we not only have the master tailor part but the movies in FOOTR. And then we get broken leg, taking off as soon as dad died, like Ianto was escaping whatever.

 

I think we were meant to be surprised/shocked whatever by all of Ianto's backstory. Mr suited and booted grew up and his family still lives on an estate which isn't seen as a good thing in the UK. It's where the dead beats live that the Government was going to sacrifice the kids from and Ianto was meant to represent that , well to me anyway.

 

I'm not saying they did a good job of Ianto's background in COE, and sorry i haven't read anything that makes me think Ianto is a liar either. Not that he couldn't lie, clearly he can lie and lie really well, sneaky bugger LOL But since Jack knows all about Ianto's family and where they live, i don't see how ianto lied to Jack in SB.

[Captanne]

My series ended with the last episode of regular Torchwood.  Neither CoE nor MD exist in my happy world.  I only take the radio plays as canon because one can be viewed as a Fixit ™  if you squint really hard (House of the Dead.)   If CoE doesn't exist then I don't need the Fixit ™.  

 

I keep the two seasons of Torchwood and all heavily or even tangentially related Doctor Who episodes as my personal canon.  Finis, point, c'est termine.  

Edited August 7, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

I can understand how you feel @Captanne.  COE felt like an end for me and MD as something altogether different.  

 

I don't know what they were trying to accomplish my making Ianto look like a liar especially since they made him make a point to say that he told Jack everything in Day 4.  Was it supposed to make fans feel okay with his death because that certainly backfired.

[Captanne]

My worst, worst feeling of betrayal came soon after the Gwen/Rhiannon dialogue when I realized only chickenshits liable a dead man.  That told me about the writer (whoever that was) and the characters and -- worse -- the sort of show Torchwood was becoming.

 

I didn't want to see any more.

 

ETA:  But this was all in the metaphysical.  Storyline-wise the show died for me right during the opening hospital scene between Jack and Ianto.  I gaped in horror.

 

I'm not an "Hysterical Woman" -- I love what Torchwood was and am delighted to talk about it.  In my case, especially Ianto and GDL, Jack and JB.  But I do hold a grudge, apparently.  I'm also perfectly content to talk about how betrayed and saddened I felt from the opening scenes of CoE.  As I mentioned earlier, the production values were great; the show was for shit.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

But why does it have to be an either or situation ? It suggests to me that there is a lot more to the story.

It doesn't have to be an either /or and there could be more to the story, I presume there is, but it's not as if they ever planned to explore it in that way because they'd already killed him off at that point. So even if there is more to the story than 'he lied' it's not as if RTD ever intended the audience to be privy to what that story was. All we're left with is this doubt about him and a kind of bizarre doubt because it doesn't make much sense with what they suggested before. Because as Captanne says we know Ianto can lie, to protect himself and others and as part of his job, but this would suggest even more than they likely intended with this reveal in COE, that he was embarrassed by where he came from and wanted it to sound better, it would suggest he's some sort of pathological liar who lies to people even when they're likely to know it's a lie. Not that that's ever stopped Torchwood before. This is the show that wanted us to believe that Jack knew he was a fixed point in time in the 1920s in s4 when the whole point of his arc in s1 is that he has no idea what happened to him and has waited over a century to find the Doctor to get answers.

[indeed]

This is the show that couldn't conceive of Jack in a scene without his stupid coat so history/continuity be damned in S4! They obviously don't think too hard about the implications. They wanted to pile on the tragedy of losing Ianto by showing that Gwen/we didn't know Ianto as well as we thought we did and oh, what a shame! More lost potential! Oh, some of the audience is upset?? That's OK, it'll get fixed in a radio play only a few will hear. Jack shouldn't have been wearing the coat? JE will fix it in tweets...time travel! Er, no? OK--they screwed up!

So, yeah, it did seem like just another kick to the well-dressed body of one Jones, Ianto Jones, but I was more upset about Andy's unnecessary comment at the time than Gwen honestly looking surprised that she didn't know the whole story about Ianto. That doesn't mean Jack didn't--they could have been role playing when Gwen overheard them for all we know--it just means Gwen didn't...and other than Gwen trying to convince Rhiannon she knew Ianto so well by mentioning ice cream, Gwen (and we) didn't know many personal details about Ianto because the show never gave us much! However, there was one scrap that would have been neat to mention and would have fixed a debate going on among the viewers after FOOTR: having Gwen mention Ianto's dad taking him to the Electro movie house when he was a kid and then Rhiannon could have scoffed because not only did that never happen, but the Electro wasn't even open when Ianto would have been old enough to go, so bad Welsh woman! Ianto still could have been a lying liar if that's what they really wanted to go for without potentially ruining that nice Jack/Ianto scene in SB. But where would be the fun (for RTD) in that?!

Edited August 7, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

 

FOOTR: having Gwen mention Ianto's dad taking him to the Electro movie house when he was a kid and then Rhiannon could have scoffed because not only did that never happen, but the Electro wasn't even open when Ianto would have been old enough to go, so bad Welsh woman! Ianto still could have been a lying liar if that's what they really wanted to go for without potentially ruining that nice Jack/Ianto scene in SB. But where would be the fun (for RTD) in that?!

Aww! That was pretty much one of the few moment of FOOTR I liked. I'm glad they never ruined that moment although as, you say, at least the discrepancy was already there. I actually liked the idea that Ianto got on well with his father and had nice memories of him although they don't exactly do much with that idea in this episode either and I was kind of disappointed that they went the abusive father route albeit rather confusingly.

[Captanne]

The whole thing was a terrible injustice to the audience.  Poot.

[itsmeyousee]

Without wanting to repeat myself, i mentioned they did a crap job and Ianto's background was supposed to surprise/shock us and that he can lie, really really well.

 

That doesn't mean i see that scene and think Ianto is a liar and ruin the moment in SB. I just think there was more to the story and since Jack knew all about Ianto's family , what's the problem. It doesn't impact their relationship to me.

 

I was more upset that they made ianto stupid in Day 4 and had him die in such a stupid way. When without Ianto, Jack is still encased in cement, Gwen and Rhys are captured, they have nowhere to hide and if they did, they would have no essentials until one of them was starving or any new clothing. Or find out what the hell Lois was writing.

 

Of all the scenes in COE Rhi/Gwen doesn't even make it on my radar , let alone make judgements on Ianto's character. I just don't see it the way you guys do and i never have. And i'm fine being the black sheep in the family about that LOL

[Luckylyn]

I found it interesting that in previous episodes FOOTR and SB Ianto spoke of his father in a positive light but in COE there's clearly some bad stuff between Ianto and his Dad.  Is that the usual crap continuity or is Ianto's history with his father supposed to be complicated?  Also, I don't think Ianto ever mentions his mother.   Is there a reason for that or am I giving this more thought than the writers?