Erin9 July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 It works better for me if I just think of Paige as willfully ignorant and unwilling to seriously listen. It fits with what I saw in S6 out of her. Whatever Philip said- it didn’t click. I also think she saw spying as something she was doing as a trial run. She talked about it way. The results are Paige decided to try spying. She only snapped when she found out her mom had sex for info and didn’t specify that to her. That was it. She knew about the killings. She understood there were lies and manipulations. None of that was news to her. Those should have been big issues. But anyway- I’ve exhausted myself on this topic. Lol Link to comment
Umbelina July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Erin9 said: I’ve read some books by Silva. They are good. Yeah, I'm enjoying them. The one I just read talks about the absolute chaos after the soviet union collapses, and the free for all scramble as people walked away from their posts (all of them.) It also talks quite a bit about the differences between those living in Moscow, and the absolute poverty of most of the rest of the USSR. A different one detailed the completely broke USSR before the collapse, and the beginnings of perestroika as an attempt to calm the starving masses. A few others go into the KGB reclaiming control of the country, the murders of the press and other dissidents, and of course the current all-KGB regime. One interesting thing they point out is even the normal people still refer to it as the KGB, even though it has different initials now. The press being completely controlled again, as in Pravda days, and examples of the lies they tell the people were also interesting. What shocked me is that Stalin still had "high poll numbers" and even after all of it, was still popular among the majority of the people. Or at least that's the answer they gave when polled. After the USSR falls apart is also mentioned in many books of his, mostly because the only real commodity besides oil the USSR had was weapons, and many, if not most, of the fortunes made were all about trafficking those weapons, and they would sell anything to anyone, which has of course increased the bloodshed world wide. Russia's natural gas and oil was the other commodity which gave them a slight boom for a while, until the bottom fell out, also detailed in his books fairly well. So, Philip and Elizabeth will be walking into a very chaotic time, but since they are KGB it's doubtful they will starve. It's much less doubtful they won't be assasinated though. 2 minutes ago, Erin9 said: She knew about the killings. She understood there were lies and manipulations. None of that was news to her. Those should have been big issues. She didn't though. Liz was STILL lying to her, with her "sometimes it happens." She idiotically bought that the General killed himself. She wasn't told about the warehouse, and apparently doesn't read newspapers, or the sailor, etc. She certainly didn't know about Annaliese or others. Again, we just have to disagree. Philip has amazing skills. If he wanted to get through to Paige? He would have. 1 Link to comment
Erin9 July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 I think I need to read more Silva books. It’s been awhile since I’ve read any. I was surprised you can still see Lenin’s remains. Shocked. Why?? Stalin supposedly being popular is mind blowing to me too. Actually I’m finishing up wildfire, a Nelson Demille book, and it deals with Soviet weapons floating around too. (Eek!) Also- IA- Paige knew, but she didn’t know. She didn’t get it. I’m just saying it’s interesting what she felt was worth really analyzing and thinking through. But- since we didn’t see what happened over 3 years, making it all make sense is hard. Anyway, Gregory might be an interesting episode to dive into. Or In Control. Link to comment
Umbelina July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 23 minutes ago, Erin9 said: I think I need to read more Silva books. It’s been awhile since I’ve read any. I was surprised you can still see Lenin’s remains. Shocked. Why?? Stalin supposedly being popular is mind blowing to me too. Actually I’m finishing up wildfire, a Nelson Demille book, and it deals with Soviet weapons floating around too. (Eek!) Also- IA- Paige knew, but she didn’t know. She didn’t get it. I’m just saying it’s interesting what she felt was worth really analyzing and thinking through. But- since we didn’t see what happened over 3 years, making it all make sense is hard. Anyway, Gregory might be an interesting episode to dive into. Or In Control. I think I got all of his, I love www.betterworldbooks.com The Red Sparrow books are great too. Yes, most of the fortunes made in Russia were from weapon sales, including nuclear material, and chemical weapons. They will sell to anyone with the money to buy, and of course, the Tzar Putin always gets his cut. That 3 year time jump after a deadly slow season 5, that introduced characters that SHOULD have been fascinating, but weren't, still blows my mind. I wish we'd spent more time with that Russian couple, for example, and that her end story hadn't been so idiotic. It's so strange. This show has excelled with supporting characters, and developing their stories, but all of that changed in season 5. I think that Russian couple could have been so interesting, and certainly Tatiana's death would have meant so much more in season 6 if we had at least seen her running the Residentura in season 5. I really missed the Residentura scenes. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 23, 2018 Author Share July 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: also think she saw spying as something she was doing as a trial run. She talked about it way. It's funny to think that for all Paige was a danger to herself and others when working maybe the biggest danger Elizabeth was exposing herself was the KGB. Because Paige was going to consider herself as in control and refuse anything she wanted to do. Without Elizabeth--even with her--she'd be eliminated as an obvious threat. What on earth did she see happening when she imagined handing her over to Claudia?! She would have probably continued briefly to show she was dutiful and then gone to Philip to get her out. Or just been killed when she got sulky. I've just started watching Gregory and it's interesting how much he's associated with Elizabeth’s death attitude of S6. He encourages her to smoke and they immediately joke about how she has no taste in art. In the last ep in the dream with him she explicitly links her smoking to getting rid of the baby. Link to comment
Umbelina July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: It's funny to think that for all Paige was a danger to herself and others when working maybe the biggest danger Elizabeth was exposing herself was the KGB. Because Paige was going to consider herself as in control and refuse anything she wanted to do. Without Elizabeth--even with her--she'd be eliminated as an obvious threat. What on earth did she see happening when she imagined handing her over to Claudia?! She would have probably continued briefly to show she was dutiful and then gone to Philip to get her out. Or just been killed when she got sulky. I've just started watching Gregory and it's interesting how much he's associated with Elizabeth’s death attitude of S6. He encourages her to smoke and they immediately joke about how she has no taste in art. In the last ep in the dream with him she explicitly links her smoking to getting rid of the baby. The first part? I agree, she was a danger and she was also IN danger. Elizabeth's choices there? Wow. That was such an odd flashback. I mean, I get it, she never wanted a child and now she's losing her children, and the art stuff. Maybe it was just oddly placed in the episode, but it didn't really work for me, or have the impact it should have, because I was immediately thrown into "what the hell are they doing" mode and out of the story. Oddly enough, Elizabeth's final silent scream through the window of the train as she saw Paige had left? SO good, and it immediately reminded me of the paintings. When interviewed, they showrunners were like "Oh cool! I didn't realize we did that." Edited July 24, 2018 by Umbelina final not find 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 24, 2018 Author Share July 24, 2018 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: Also- IA- Paige knew, but she didn’t know. She didn’t get it. I’m just saying it’s interesting what she felt was worth really analyzing and thinking through. But- since we didn’t see what happened over 3 years, making it all make sense is hard. It occurs to me that this is probably one of those points where the metaphor works better than the literal story. Paige is the child who's stubbornly doing something despite her father knowing it's a bad idea. Even when he's as obvious as he is with the General, she's resistant. So he has to just let her make her own mistakes. But of course in real life it would probably be her going out with some jerk or quitting college or something. Or even getting addicted to drugs. But those things don't completely track with this situation. 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: That was such an odd flashback. I mean, I get it, she never wanted a child and now she's losing her children, and the art stuff. Maybe it was just oddly placed in the episode, but it didn't really work for me, or have the impact it should have, because I was immediately thrown into "what the hell are they doing" mode and out of the story. LOL--they really do grab their last chance to make it clear this is her story. She's gone from not wanting children to losing them. Philip's always been acknowledged to love having children, he loved them for who they were, basically already let them go to be who they wanted to be--but he's lost them too and probably feels responsible for that, but he's just the guy there to be her touchstone when she wakes up from her dream. If he was having his own memories of the kids in that moment we won't share it. In the last ep he's doing what he does a lot of the time--facilitating everything that needs to happen. He makes the decision about Henry, makes the final phone call--wishes he could talk to Henry to get him over the hump but it's too late for that, he gets them out of the garage. He does certainly get a long monologue laying out his pov in the service of convincing Stan to let them go, but it's not personal in the same way. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina July 24, 2018 Share July 24, 2018 I wonder if the cinematographer realized how much Elizabeth through the train window looked like one of that artist's paintings? I would think so, after all, painters and cinematographers are both artists. At least the showrunners didn't lie about it, that's something I guess... Link to comment
sistermagpie August 6, 2018 Author Share August 6, 2018 Finished re-watching Gregory and a few things (uh...a lot. It's long) stood out for me this time. We have our first introduction to Claudia and when we're watching her cooing over Robert's baby and Joyce I think how much of an act it is (she uses the same one earlier in the diner with Paige and Philip but Philip immediately mistrusts her). Seeing her do it with Paige makes me think how Paige would have so easily been Joyce one day. The ep starts with a little plot set up with Nina, who's already trying to angle her way to freedom by telling Stan about Robert. A central point of the episode is that Robert and Philip are friends. Even if Philip's emphasizing that fact to be against Gregory, Claudia herself says Robert trusted Philip above anyone else. So originally they gave Philip a friend who was another Illegal (in another city, too). It seems almost odd to imagine it now. But they matched him up with a guy who was trying to have a life outside of spying and this is the first time Philip is leading the charge on protecting somebody on principle even if they could be a liability because Robert's his friend. Also it seems that Gabriel was maybe yanked out of the US because of his "looser" style--but later it was thought his looser style actually maybe worked. Paige is here again a normal teenager which gives her what seems to be much more power with her mom. She buys a magazine her mother doesn't like and tells Philip to just not tell Elizabeth--iow, she sees her mom as old-fashioned but doesn't see any reason to take that so seriously. Philip's already more letting her find herself while Elizabeth is trying to restrict her influences, but at this point it's pretty normal. (Though sometimes I do wonder what kind of background Elizabeth pretends to have--did Paige think it odd that her mother said she was a late 60s radical and also scandalized by girls with red bras? Maybe this prepared her for Pastor Tim's mashup for conservative/liberal signposting!) At the start of the racket ball game Stan's kind of being a dick. He's standing still, batting the ball to either side of the court while lecturing about how the best strategy is to tire your opponent out by making him run around so he makes a mistake. Philip, of course, is running around back and forth behind him. (Stan's not being a dick by playing well, but the lecture while he does it is very alpha male Stan, the way he is a lot on the job.) So Philip smacks him from behind with the ball. He pretends it was a mistake but it does totally knock Stan off his high horse. Very much FBI/KGB interaction there--the KGB's running around like mad while the FBI sits there with all the power, but they still get hit from behind. Then Stan gets a call from the office and has to leave. Philip says that "where he comes from" quitting means losing. Stan says something like, "Yeah, if you want to win that way." Like forfeit isn't really winning. Philip says he'll win any way he can. This on one hand kind of foreshadows the end--Philip doesn't mind slinking away. He doesn't need a big heroic ending. More importantly here it kind of mirrors Gregory who is very much happy to win Elizabeth by default by convincing Philip to quit. More on him later, because his whole attitude made a huge impression on me this time. Amador continues to be the goat of the FBI. When they lose Joyce (which inspires one of my favorite lines from Gaad, "She disappeared into thin air? Is she Doug Henning?" God, I miss Gaad) and Gaad is called to explain it to the powers that be, Amador says they all made the mistake of thinking they could pick Joyce up any time. In fact, earlier Amador was the one who wanted to pick her up and Gaad wanted to leave her be. Gaad then snarks about not needing Amador to worry about him. Really in both scenes Amador is inferior because he didn't understand the benefit of following Joyce and now he's just acting like a guy who spends a lot of time thinking about covering up mistakes. Amador also acts like it's crazy to search all the DMV records to ID Robert, which is how they ID him. He's like the anti-Aderholdt. He's yet to make any good deductions. On the street it seems Stan is the one always making connections and thinking things through. Another tiny touch in the FBI I liked is when they're learning about Joyce and the ADA says, "Ramirez...what is she, Mexican?" And Gaad says she's of Puerto Rican descent (born there). It just seemed very realistic that in this context especially the guy would jump on her name since she's married to an Illegal and that would come up even though it's ultimately meaningless. There's just the right hint of potential racism without it actually being racist. It's like when later Stan, in wondering about Aderholdt, mentions that he's black and nobody knew quite how to take it. This is just America. In one scene where Philip and Elizabeth are talking about Robert Stavos comes in looking for forms that "Barbara" lost track of. This now totally looks to me like Stavos is desperately curious about what goes on in the back room and is hoping the Jennings will take him into their confidence so he's part of the gang. His coming in so looks like a clumsy attempt to do this. I'm hoping to be able to build this throughout more episodes. It's again really striking me how terrified Philip is all the time. He's always running down the worst-case scenarios and expecting them (sometimes with black humor)--but when he's actually in the dangerous scenario he's totally ready. This is a huge contrast with Gregory who when Elizabeth is talking about picking up Joyce says that maybe his team will be arrested--he says this while sprawled very theatrically on the couch smoking a joint to project how cool he is with all of this. I wonder if one of the reasons Claudia hates Philip is that he totally got the jump on her when they met and made her actually fear for her life for a moment. By contrast when she meets Elizabeth at the end she seems to say specifically to her that Zhukov was thinking about her. And we know Claudia loves Zhukov. So onto the meat of the episode, the big triangle. First, really interesting to remember that Elizabeth will later throw Philip out for lying about sleeping with Irina, and she'll make a big deal about people lying to her elsewhere, but here when Philip accuses her of lying by keeping her affair with Gregory secret she says, "I lied? What does that even mean to us?" Iow, she's saying lying doesn't even matter. She fully intended, it seems, to just never tell Philip about her affair which was a much more important thing than Philip sleeping with Irina once. She's angry with Gregory for telling Philip. For all her demands that people tell the truth to her Elizabeth very often decides that other people don't need information that might hurt them or, more importantly, make things difficult for her. (She lets Gregory die thinking she realized she should have stayed with him, she lies to Paige about the truth of spying, she wants to keep her affair with Gregory secret, advises Philip to lie to Martha about joining her in Moscow, etc.) This is a frustrating triangle for me because objectively I can totally defend Elizabeth. She didn't owe it to Philip to share the details of her personal life outside of him with him.. It's not so cut and dried wrong as Philip lying about Irina. But I *so* feel for him in the situation she puts him in. She has this tendency to hang out with people who think he's inferior and want him out of her life and even if they're not directly talking about him they're always pushing that idea so her hanging out with them always coincides with being anti-Philip herself. It would be completely humiliating to have somebody tell you not just that they are your gf's ex (as of 5 minutes ago) and she's not telling you that, but that a large part of their relationship is as a refuge from you and the life you value and she doesn't. Philip, btw, never throws this last part in her face. He never repeats Gregory's claims about her being ready to sacrifice their family or being horrified at having to "raise this child." Even though the 6th season, with Elizabeth at her worst, does have her kind of doing that--she risks Paige's life, makes Henry feel like an afterthought, dreams about not caring about hurting her baby by smoking. The closest Philip ever comes to referencing this is in David Copperfield when he says he's sorry the love of her life died and she's stuck there with him. Both men, in a way, have been telling themselves a comforting fiction about Elizabeth that's broken in this ep, I think. Gregory has always lived by the idea that the Cause comes first a corner for Elizabeth so a corner is all any man can hope to occupy in her life. Now he learns that Elizabeth is capable of sharing a whole life with someone. Philip, too, probably just told himself that Elizabeth wasn't really capable of more affection than she gave him in their home--now it turns out that she's capable of passionate affairs. Both men are sort of living that quote from When Harry Met Sally: "All this time I said he just didn't want to get married. But the truth is, he didn't want to marry me." They sort of get hit in their blind spots--a big theme in the ep. (It could have been titled that, in fact.) Joyce disappears from a blind spot on the street, Philip beats up two guys for standing in his blind spot. Stan gets hit from behind on the racket ball court. Gregory and Philip spent years talking about her fake cover life so he thought that part of her life was safe from threat. Philip, too, managed to never suspect Elizabeth's affair. And then Elizabeth, too, gets blindsided by Gregory when he reveals her secret to Philip. In two other scenes characters check their blindspots with good results: Stan spots Curtis reflected in a side mirror of a parked car; Philip studies Claudia in the diner in the reflection from the napkin holder. (Philip and Stan also both seem to recognize Curtis and Claudia when they see them a second time in a different context.) In the past I haven't found Gregory such a weasel as I did this time. At every turn he's trying to destroy any feelings between the Jennings and then he has the nerve to couch in as "trying to do the right thing" like he's being noble. He tells Elizabeth that if she wants to be married to Philip that's fine but she can't do it based on a lie. Only that's a lie in itself. He doesn't think it's fine for her to want to be married to him. Elizabeth only knows he told Philip about them being a couple. She doesn't know that Gregory's whole monologue is about how they could never have as good or real a relationship as him and Elizabeth do. That's also the subtext with Joyce. He points out that Robert maybe wasn't Philip's friend since he didn't tell him about his wife--just like Elizabeth didn't tell him about Gregory. He pushes the idea that the personal connection doesn't matter because his whole relationship with Elizabeth is based on putting the Cause above all else, with him being the only person who understands this. He wants Philip to know that Elizabeth will sacrifice their family just like they should Joyce. Their life doesn't really matter to her, so neither does he. (I'd also note that Gregory claims that he and Elizabeth both understood that it wasn't about Vietnam or race, it was about equality--making their goal that much more out of reach.) Gregory's not respectful of Elizabeth's choice at all. In talking to Philip he advises him to "let her be" whether Philip himself loves her or not. Iow, Philip should simply decide for Elizabeth that the relationship is a bad idea and unilaterally end it since Gregory can't unilaterally end it himself. It's like the only time he speaks to Philip it's to position them as two men "protecting" Elizabeth's little bit of "realness" in her life. (The logic seems to be that they both agree that Elizabeth could never really love Philip so he should protect her sense of reality by breaking up with her.) That's the thing that really struck me in this ep about Gregory and Elizabeth's relationship--how much of their interactions involve Gregory gaslighting her and telling her what she really thinks or ought to be thinking. It's amazing that she stands for it--and probably wouldn't except that Gregory is always speaking with the authority of the Centre, scolding her to be what she already thinks she should be. They've already softened her up to be that. Seriously, it's in every scene. When they first meet Gregory offers her a smoke and she says no, she's "trying to be good." (In S6 smoking pretty much represents Elizabeth rejecting a future.) Gregory says, "It doesn't suit you." That could just come across as flirty banter--if Gregory wasn't constantly correcting her behavior for real throughout. They go inside and there's a joke about how she "doesn't know shit about art" and she laughs and agrees. Foreshadowing to S6, of course, where Elizabeth understanding art is directly tied to her reaching out to life (and away from smoking). Gregory also gets to be a little superior here--she's the one who doesn't know shit. Obviously a familiar joke between them--in fact, for all that this is supposed to be Elizabeth's "real life" she puts on a clear persona when she goes to see Gregory, a cool, sexy one that sort of mirrors Gregory himself. Even her outfit seems designed to match him and his decor. She then broaches the subject of the break-up. She says things are changing at home with Philip and Gregory immediately directs the convo to "You're finally leaving him." (Obviously that idea's come up with them a lot.) When she says it's the opposite Gregory laughs and tells her that's impossible, that Philip's her cover. Then he just dismisses the whole thing. Okay, so he's shaken and can be forgiven for just reacting with denial. (And she plays into it, telling Gregory that Philip's "her husband" as if that's the reason she needs to be with him.) But in their next convo, the one where he's lounging on the couch, he's straight up lecturing her. Again he tries to get her to smoke--pot this time, and when she says no because it burns her throat he says it "makes her horny" like that's the real reason she doesn't want to smoke with him. She reaches out for the joint and he's pleased (thinking he'll get her back into their old groove entirely soon enough), but then not pleased when she stubs it out, saying she needs him sober. That inspires his lecture--she doesn't have to worry about him (baby!), but herself. She's "lost"--her marriage isn't real, her husband isn't real, the domestic shit isn't her. Elizabeth the big feminist's boyfriend's telling her she can't trust her own thoughts and feelings. She's just been befuddled by...living in the suburbs or raising kids. Then he goes behind her back and doesn't just tell Philip about them so that she's not building her life on a lie, but explicitly tells Philip to break up with her because this relationship can't be real for Elizabeth. (He'll happily win by default with Philip leaving the field--and later probably thinks he's winning by leaving the field so heroically it seals his position forever.) Then they have a third conversation. This time Gregory, who's just intentionally started this whole thing with Philip on the job, claims that *Elizabeth* is making emotional decisions. He claims her decision is emotional because she's trying to protect Joyce--where as Gregory the objective one sees she should be killed. Really, of course, Joyce has become a symbol of what Elizabeth values. If she only cares about the Cause (and Gregory) she'll vote to kill Joyce and be against Philip. Elizabeth argues about Robert being "their" friend who went to them (not Gregory) for help. Gregory again tells her she's not thinking clearly. He says Robert wasn't her friend (again Gregory's the authority on what relationships count), he was Philip's friend and her guilt is "clouding her judgment." (Note that he's not suggesting that she's being influenced by love for Philip here, but guilt--presumably because that fits more with the scenario where she's just confused about what her feelings for Philip should be.) But it's also possible that Elizabeth is just being influenced by Philip's way of thinking--that's something that's more in keeping with her arc on the show. She's not just trying to do something nice for Philip, she's making an argument herself in favor of Joyce that agrees with the one Philip himself made earlier. That Robert was their friend and came to them for help by telling Joyce to place the ad. This also kind of mirrors the S6 "don't leave a comrade behind" dilemma. You can care about people and the Cause when possible. In the end Philip and Elizabeth seem to prevail--they don't kill Joyce. But unbeknownst to them (or not--they must know it's a possibility), Claudia and Gregory get their way behind the scenes. Claudia and Gregory being the two people in Elizabeth's life who even at the end of the series will represent her choosing death over life, a cause over people. Claudia will also lecture Elizabeth about how her choices are wrong and that being left with Philip, Paige and Henry is being left with nothing. But in the kitchen, Elizabeth admits that a big draw with Gregory back in 68 was that he was passionate about her personally, something Philip probably never seemed to be no matter how in love with her or not he might have been whenever. In the end Philip is the one putting her above everything. Gregory is sensitive to any little thing about Elizabeth that's different and rejects it as her losing herself as if her only true self was the person she was at 26. I guess one could also see that attitude in Elizabeth in S6 in the way she's explicitly trying to turn Paige into a Russian person she'll never be and cuts Henry off because she's too inflexible by then to relate to him--all while also being afraid of change in the USSR. Philip, in this ep, tells her to just see Gregory whenever she wants, essentially throwing down the opposite gauntlet. He *only* wants her with him because she wants to be there in that moment. Ultimately it seems like that's what the central things is in the relationship. Philip doesn't represent putting family above the Cause vs. Gregory being the opposite, he represents Elizabeth choosing what she truly thinks or wants or believes, defining herself herself. 6 Link to comment
Umbelina August 6, 2018 Share August 6, 2018 Wow. I may end up responding to that post a bit at a time. Well done, I had to look up some of those names to even remember who they were. First up? Gregory and Elizabeth. I didn't see Gregory as manipulative really. Or no more manipulative than the average lover. When I think of Gregory and Elizabeth, I have to REMEMBER how very long they were a "couple." I'm guessing between 15 and 17 years. We know she was with Gregory, established relationship, BEFORE she deigned to let Philip impregnate her. So, probably a year or two before Paige was born. We know she didn't break up with Gregory until after Timochev was killed by Philip. So, Paige born in 1968. Philip and Elizabeth arrive in the US in 1965 First episode was 1981 (while means 16 years between arrival and first episode) So Paige is about 13? Gregory, IIRC was Elizabeth's FIRST recruit, so probably soon after 65. The show ends in 1987, so Philip and Elizabeth have only actually BEEN a couple for 6 years Gregory and Elizabeth were together for at least 15 years. Philip and Elizabeth have only been a real "couple" for 6 years. So Gregory has been her defacto husband/lover/confidant for more than twice as long as Philip. After being with someone that long, of course he tried to keep their relationship going, who wouldn't? He loved her. We wouldn't have had a show if this happened, but honestly, Philip should have dumped Elizabeth after the kids were born and defected, just as he wanted to do, taken the kids and gone into witness protection, instead of being cuckolded and sacrificing his kids and his own well being. Let Elizabeth have Gregory, and visa versa. Staying with a woman who didn't give a shit about him is bizarre, especially when it's obvious he had long since lost faith in the great Soviet Cause. It's always been hard for me to understand why in hell Philip would "love" a woman who made it obvious she didn't care for him for over 15 years. Was he that deluded, that willing to settle? What kind of "love" is that? What was wrong with him that he clung to an emotionally unavailable woman? As for Elizabeth? I see why she loved Gregory, and honestly, I see why she didn't love or respect Philip. Gregory was everything Elizabeth thinks is honorable, strong, and the one who truly shared her passion and beliefs. Philip was some wimp the KGB assigned to her, that was more like a capable co-worker that you are in no way attracted to, but you can tolerate because they help you in your work. 1 Link to comment
Dev F August 6, 2018 Share August 6, 2018 13 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Also it seems that Gabriel was maybe yanked out of the US because of his "looser" style--but later it was thought his looser style actually maybe worked. Yeah, particularly since "loose" means "trusting your officers enough not to follow them around in secret when they're with their family." In retrospect it seems clear that when the Cold War started to heat up under Reagan, the Centre got nervous about whether the Jenningses (Philip especially) could be trusted with their increasingly dangerous missions, and thought Gabriel was too close and trusting to keep them on track. Quote Amador continues to be the goat of the FBI. When they lose Joyce (which inspires one of my favorite lines from Gaad, "She disappeared into thin air? Is she Doug Henning?" God, I miss Gaad) and Gaad is called to explain it to the powers that be, Amador says they all made the mistake of thinking they could pick Joyce up any time. In fact, earlier Amador was the one who wanted to pick her up and Gaad wanted to leave her be. Gaad then snarks about not needing Amador to worry about him. Really in both scenes Amador is inferior because he didn't understand the benefit of following Joyce and now he's just acting like a guy who spends a lot of time thinking about covering up mistakes. But he's not inferior in the first instance, is he? He was right that they needed to bring Joyce in ASAP, and she gets away from them because they follow Gaad's Let's see where she leads us plan instead. And then in the follow-up scene, instead of saying I told you so, Chris pretends like he agreed with Gaad all along in the hopes of absorbing some of the blame for his boss's bad decision. To me that seems like quite a different thing from being a guy who's always scheming to cover up his own mistakes. Chris definitely still has the element of his original pilot characterization where he's focused on official-cover operatives and is slow to consider the threat of the Directorate S illegals. But I don't think he's portrayed as being dumb or having bad instincts in general. Indeed, in season 3, Aderholt with his Directorate S investigation experience expresses basically the same opinion Amador does here: "I'm telling you, this is what happened with Herrmann. They said to follow him for the next year and he'll lead you to something. These people, they'll talk. They're human beings. But we can't crack them if we don't have them." Quote They sort of get hit in their blind spots--a big theme in the ep. (It could have been titled that, in fact.) Ha, that's a really good read. In future seasons it probably would've been titled "Blind Spot," since thematic titles became a much more regular thing starting in season 3. In my rewatch of the first two seasons, I've sometimes thought about what the episode's post-S3 title would've been. "ARPANET," for instance, would probably have been titled "The Beast." Quote (The logic seems to be that they both agree that Elizabeth could never really love Philip so he should protect her sense of reality by breaking up with her.) Hrm, I never thought Gregory was saying that Elizabeth could never love Philip. I took it as being more about how Elizabeth shouldn't love him, because it would damage her as a person and as an operative to be in love with the "lie" she was living. And while that may be the jealousy talking, Gregory is right that developing real feelings for her husband changes the tenor of her life and her work in a very deep and often problematic way. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 6, 2018 Author Share August 6, 2018 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: I didn't see Gregory as manipulative really. Or no more manipulative than the average lover. I think that's the thing that surprised me, that he's just acting like such an average lover through the whole episode. I maybe remembered him as seeming like something more besides that, but he's really just being such a jealous boyfriend. Now it makes me think about her surprise when that Ben guy from S5 turns out to have lots of girlfriends. He seems like he totally would have a lot of girlfriends, but Elizabeth doesn't have much experience, it seems, with just run of the mill guys like that. Of course I get why he's trying to hold on to her--I wouldn't expect him to just let her go even if they didn't have the relationship they had. But it was still surprising to me to watch someone be told over and over again they can't think for themselves. or that they're making "emotional decisions" when that other person is being emotional all over the place, and not get annoyed. But the fact that it really starts even before she breaks up with him and the way it happens later makes sense given their whole relationship seems built on Gregory always telling Elizabeth who she is. And who he tells her she is echoes a crowd of other people in her life saying the same thing. He's allowed to speak to her with authority because he speaks in the voice of The Authority. Philip's the opposite. When he challenges her he's just speaking as himself. 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: As for Elizabeth? I see why she loved Gregory, and honestly, I see why she didn't love or respect Philip. Gregory was everything Elizabeth thinks is honorable, strong, and the one who truly shared her passion and beliefs. Philip was some wimp the KGB assigned to her, that was more like a capable co-worker that you are in no way attracted to, but you can tolerate because they help you in your work. Oh, definitely I can see why Elizabeth would love Gregory. But I would say Gregory was not just everything she thought was honorable and strong, he was also everything Elizabeth thought she *should* think was honorable and strong. She not only would love a guy who shared her passion and beliefs, she'd think that was the whole point. At 23 or whatever, she was attracted to Gregory and not Philip who was not only assigned to her (so she automatically resents that) but doesn't think or act like her. (And doesn't seem to hold any big physical attraction either.) But that's also why it doesn't surprise me that an older Elizabeth outgrows Gregory and not Philip. Philip is the only person who values her for something other than what everyone says is good about her (her passion for the cause and willingness to sacrifice everything, blah blah blah). She's got plenty of people who tell her this is what's good about her and what makes her worthy. Philip gives her the thing she's afraid to even admit she wants by putting her above orders. (And not just her--it's obviously built into his character.) I would imagine this is something that gets more important as she watches her kids grow up and does question whether that's what she wants for them. After 20 years together Philip and Elizabeth do still share basic values. As for why he would stay with her I do think he was pretty willing to settle. He didn't feel entitled to a big romance with the woman he was assigned to, but they both loved their children and he probably thought the children needed their mother. They worked well together. He's probably seen enough of her over the years to see things to love--he's very empathetic and however much Gregory might think of himself as her husband, he always occupied a limited space in her life while Philip had the day-to-day. Gregory can't have a total understanding of her if he thinks her domestic life is a lie--there's a limit to the truth of that. Philip's adept at living on scraps and their homelife doesn't seem particularly bad. I've heard it's not unusual for arranged marriages, in particular, develop into relationships that sort of resemble siblings. He might have loved her before the start of the show, but not the way he did after their real romance started. 15 minutes ago, Dev F said: Yeah, particularly since "loose" means "trusting your officers enough not to follow them around in secret when they're with their family." In retrospect it seems clear that when the Cold War started to heat up under Reagan, the Centre got nervous about whether the Jenningses (Philip especially) could be trusted with their increasingly dangerous missions, and thought Gabriel was too close and trusting to keep them on track. Yup. I like that little detail. 18 minutes ago, Dev F said: But he's not inferior in the first instance, is he? He was right that they needed to bring Joyce in ASAP, and she gets away from them because they follow Gaad's I thought he came across as inferior. Because it's not like he's arguing that his idea is the better thing to do. He's not suggesting they'll lose her if they don't do it. He's just saying it as the most obvious thing to do--why not just bring her in and really go at her? Of course he does turn out to be right, but it seems more like an accident rather than "should have listened to Aderholdt." 20 minutes ago, Dev F said: To me that seems like quite a different thing from being a guy who's always scheming to cover up his own mistakes. It really didn't to me. He is trying to take the blame for Gaad, but that, to me, was what made him seem like small potatoes again, that his mind went straight to the problem of Gaad getting in trouble with his boss. I didn't think Gaad was nice to snap at him for it, but it did seem like a misstep--and not just because he's making it obvious that he thinks Gaad's a fuck up here--not a good idea to do to your boss. 23 minutes ago, Dev F said: Aderholt with his Directorate S investigation experience expresses basically the same opinion Amador does here: "I'm telling you, this is what happened with Herrmann. They said to follow him for the next year and he'll lead you to something. These people, they'll talk. They're human beings. But we can't crack them if we don't have them." To me that's *not* exactly the same opinion, though. Aderholdt is disagreeing with Gaad based on his experience. Amador seems to just be throwing out the quickest solution. Earlier he said that since they had no city or name for Robert, "What are we supposed to do?" He threw out sending out his picture to every DMV as a joke and Gaad said it was a good idea and that's how they got Robert. It's not that I think he's positioned as completely useless or anything, but he does always seem very much contrasted with, say, Stan who's better at seeing the bigger picture. There's been a number of scenes, especially, where he seems contrasted with people who are looking at the bigger picture while he's being more short-sighted, even if he's seeing clearly. (It's nice that in S6 Stan's actually in Amador's role vis-a-vis Aderholdt when he starts tracking all the info they get from Harvest.) 28 minutes ago, Dev F said: Hrm, I never thought Gregory was saying that Elizabeth could never love Philip. I took it as being more about how Elizabeth shouldn't love him, because it would damage her as a person and as an operative to be in love with the "lie" she was living. And while that may be the jealousy talking, Gregory is right that developing real feelings for her husband changes the tenor of her life and her work in a very deep and often problematic way. I wasn't sure exactly what he meant so I could totally be wrong, but I got my reading from wondering what Gregory meant by specifically saying that Philip should "let her have a little piece of something real." This comes after saying that if Philip doesn't love her he should "leave her be" and if he does love her he should...also "leave her be." Like even if Philip really loves her he should stop this because the relationship itself takes away Elizabeth's only little piece of something real. So to me that made sense as saying that if Elizabeth continued this relationship with Philip she would have lost her grip on reality--Gregory, after all, has been flat-out telling her that everything she's saying is because she's "lost" and reminding her that Philip's her cover, that her husband and marriage isn't real. So if it became real nothing would be real. (This being a TV show and Philip being committed to not answering him, he doesn't reply to this by saying, "Um...what?") It seems like if the problem was that it would damage her he would have said that, but his focus throughout the ep seems to really be on how Philip the husband/love can never be a thing. When Elizabeth first tells him this and says, "Things change" he says, "Not that thing." It seems very important that Elizabeth always see her entire domestic life in Falls Church as false--he frames this as being very important to Elizabeth, but of course it's probably much more important to Gregory. Before the baby was born he and Elizabeth probably planned for exactly this--that Gregory would always be her reality so her life wouldn't become a lie. But that night she was a young woman about to give birth for the first time and she was terrified. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 6, 2018 Share August 6, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: At 23 or whatever, she was attracted to Gregory and not Philip who was not only assigned to her (so she automatically resents that) but doesn't think or act like her. (And doesn't seem to hold any big physical attraction either.) But that's also why it doesn't surprise me that an older Elizabeth outgrows Gregory and not Philip. 14 years minimum and possibly as much as 16 years, so she was well over 23 and still in love with Gregory. She's only actually loved Philip for 6 years, so how long that will last is up in the air really, especially with the problems with a collapsing USSR, and the chaos and stresses then, and "now" as they adjust to being back there, even leaving out the Coup issues, this won't be an easy time for them, their kids as well as adjusting to life in the USSR. We can only guess how long this particular "love" will last for Elizabeth. Maybe the full 15 years, maybe not, maybe longer. 28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: As for why he would stay with her I do think he was pretty willing to settle. He didn't feel entitled to a big romance with the woman he was assigned to, but they both loved their children and he probably thought the children needed their mother. They worked well together. He's probably seen enough of her over the years to see things to love--he's very empathetic and however much Gregory might think of himself as her husband, he always occupied a limited space in her life while Philip had the day-to-day. Gregory can't have a total understanding of her if he thinks her domestic life is a lie--there's a limit to the truth of that. Philip's adept at living on scraps and their homelife doesn't seem particularly bad. In at least one scene I remember feeling that Elizabeth kind of mocked Philip with Gregory, she at least discussed him, which is why Gregory felt free to judge/discuss him back with her. I think her domestic "life" was a complete lie, or rather, simply her job, an act for the world, but not for Philip. I think that's exactly what she said/showed Gregory for 15 years. Of course we are kind of guessing, which is why her scenes with Gregory and their "vibe" together is so important. The very first episode of the series has Elizabeth suddenly seeing Philip in a new way, as a romantic interest. From all that is said though, and Elizabeth's cold/resigned/dutiful "I'm ready" move to conceive Paige? I see them as co-workers only, and Gregory as her real love. 1 hour ago, Dev F said: But he's not inferior in the first instance, is he? He was right that they needed to bring Joyce in ASAP, and she gets away from them because they follow Gaad's Let's see where she leads us plan instead. And then in the follow-up scene, instead of saying I told you so, Chris pretends like he agreed with Gaad all along in the hopes of absorbing some of the blame for his boss's bad decision. To me that seems like quite a different thing from being a guy who's always scheming to cover up his own mistakes. Good catch. I'll have to start watching seasons 1-4 again. I want to pay attention to Amador and to Gregory specifically. I never thought of Amador as incompetent, he played easy going, but he always seemed to snap to when needed. His biggest screw up to me was when he didn't warn Stan about possible coverage from the KGB when he was meeting Nina. THAT was stupid. Yes, Amador was right, and he did absorb Gaad's blame, he was a team player. ------- That whole story was so devastating, and felt so real. Claudia murdering her was one of the most shocking things for me in this entire series, and had such impact. It was a serious head's up, THIS IS THE KGB reminder. When Martha was supposedly "escaping" Grace's story was still resonating with me, and I expected, at any moment, to find out they killed her, specifically because of Grace. I still think they would have, had Granny been in charge instead of Gabe right then, OR if they didn't have to fly out the bio-weapon anyway. Edited August 6, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie August 6, 2018 Author Share August 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: 14 years minimum and possibly as much as 16 years, so she was well over 23 and still in love with Gregory. Right, I'm not saying they weren't together for a long time, just that she's not longer in love with him by the time of the show. In this episode Gregory keeps telling her who she is and that she's lost herself because she's not who he thinks she should be. Of course we have no idea how long anything will last, but Philip and Elizabeth have known each other and been partners of some kind (if not romantically) for over 20 years too. Nobody can predict the future, but I'm talking about the present of the show in this episode. She's had both men in her life since she was in her early 20s and this is the state of things by the pilot. Plus it's not just about Gregory personally. He and Claudia both are very clear about who Elizabeth really is and should be. The climax of Elizabeth's story goes right back to that contrast of Elizabeth following orders without question and nothing else mattering vs. Philip telling her to think for herself, which leads to her choosing against Claudia. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: In at least one scene I remember feeling that Elizabeth kind of mocked Philip with Gregory, she at least discussed him, which is why Gregory felt free to judge/discuss him back with her. I think it's implied that they talked about Philip plenty--this was probably one of the things Elizabeth was relieved to talk about with Gregory for years. Gregory was the real boyfriend; Philip was the fake guy she had to live with as a husband when she wasn't really in love with him, the guy she had to have these children with. She probably was very open about how he didn't have the passion Gregory did, etc. at least. In this ep it seems like not only does Gregory feel free to criticize that relationship, he's very open about defining its worth and guiding Elizabeth down familiar paths to talk about it. He's not open to her evolving on this topic. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: I think her domestic "life" was a complete lie, or rather, simply her job, an act for the world, but not for Philip. A lot of that domestic life is private, though. It's not completely an act. These are actually her children, she's actually raising them. She can't raise them openly the way she might want, but she's just as invested in them as she would be doing that. She knows Philip is just as invested in them and this is real project between them, another shared project that they talk about with each other honestly. If one refers to Elizabeth's domestic life there's not much else there besides the children she and Philip are raising and the work they're doing together. It's not like she's created another suburban social life that's all a performance. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: From all that is said though, and Elizabeth's cold/resigned/dutiful "I'm ready" move to conceive Paige? I see them as co-workers only, and Gregory as her real love. Sure, I think that's absolutely explicit. Neither of them has any real illusions about that. Even Philip who was happy enough with their comfortable arrangement (whatever it was) agrees with her in this ep that they never had a romance or were in love with each other. Gregory was her actual romance. The only one in her life before the start of the show, just as Irina seems to have been the only romance Philip had. They had a life together but weren't romantically involved. Their history doesn't start in S1 any more than Elizabeth's and Gregory's does. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Yes, Amador was right, and he did absorb Gaad's blame, he was a team player. Amador's never presented as having a problem with being a team player so far. He's not like an incompetent guy who's out to climb over other guys to advance or anything. The pattern with him is just that he's usually focused on something other than the bigger picture that the other guys are seeing. Like here, it's nice of him to personally try to encourage Gaad by telling him that they all agreed to the plan that failed, it wasn't just him. But he's not really being asked to absorb blame--Gaad's going to talk to TPTB on his own. Amador's more giving him personal encouragement. Heh. He's totally the opposite of Stan later, of course. Stan winds up getting Gaad in trouble and rarely seems to consider his co-workers when it comes to what he's doing. Amador seems much more likely to have your back. There's nothing so far where he's presented as bad at his job (he's not Paige as an agent!), there's just also nothing where he's presented as particularly good. I think, for instance, it's significant in The Clock when Gaad asks if they're clear and he says, "I think so" and Gaad prods him by saying, "Come on, Chris." Edited August 6, 2018 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 6, 2018 Share August 6, 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Right, I'm not saying they weren't together for a long time, just that she's not longer in love with him by the time of the show. In this episode Gregory keeps telling her who she is and that she's lost herself because she's not who he thinks she should be. Of course we have no idea how long anything will last, but Philip and Elizabeth have known each other and been partners of some kind (if not romantically) for over 20 years too. Nobody can predict the future, but I'm talking about the present of the show in this episode. She's had both men in her life since she was in her early 20s and this is the state of things by the pilot. Plus it's not just about Gregory personally. He and Claudia both are very clear about who Elizabeth really is and should be. The climax of Elizabeth's story goes right back to that contrast of Elizabeth following orders without question and nothing else mattering vs. Philip telling her to think for herself, which leads to her choosing against Claudia. She was still in love with him until the moment Philip killed Timochev. Yes, she had both men, but one of them was simply a coworker/roommate, and another was the man she was in love with. That could be true. I doubt Gregory was always telling her who she was though, he obviously listened and paid attention. He tried to get her not to smoke when she was pregnant, but immediately accepted her decision to smoke anyway because "she never wanted this kid anyway." I don't think Claudia TOLD Elizabeth what to think either, Claudia was very clear about what SHE thought, and Claudia's job was to give Elizabeth orders from Center. Remember they only got "cozy" in the last season, if anything, Elizabeth usually had the upper hand there. I think Gregory (somewhat desperately, he loved her) was trying to REMIND her "who she was" not TELL her who to be. There was a lot at stake for him, and in his heart, for her as well. As for Philip? In the Gorbachev plot he told her what HE was going to do, no matter what she did. It was one of the very rare times Philip thought for himself and did what he wanted to do, no matter what Elizabeth wanted. (Timochev and the aftermath of the Reagan shooting were two other times I remember.) Who knows? Maybe Elizabeth responds better to men that don't let her walk all over them. When Philip FINALLY doesn't (those 3 times) she shows him respect and maybe it even translated to "love" with the Timochev thing. Thinking about it, that may be key, and now I will re-watch 1-4 specifically looking at that. When she can respect a man and not boss him around and make all the rules, maybe to her, that allows her to "love." She respected Gregory, and he was his own man. Philip was her lapdog, and as soon as he wasn't? She responded. 49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Sure, I think that's absolutely explicit. Neither of them has any real illusions about that. Even Philip who was happy enough with their comfortable arrangement (whatever it was) agrees with her in this ep that they never had a romance or were in love with each other. Gregory was her actual romance. The only one in her life before the start of the show, just as Irina seems to have been the only romance Philip had. They had a life together but weren't romantically involved. Yes, but Philip's romance was a teenage affair that probably, at most, lasted 2 years and was very sporadic since they were both in KGB training, and I doubt they had much free time, let alone opportunity for courtship. Elizabeth's was an adult love affair, lasting well over a decade, before and through her children's conception and births, and long after. I think it's pretty tough to equate the two. Also, frankly, Elizabeth's was very serious, where Philip's seemed more like a fun fling, did he really love her? Maybe, but maybe it was just fun and sex and companionship. 49 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Amador's never presented as having a problem with being a team player so far. He's not like an incompetent guy who's out to climb over other guys to advance or anything. The pattern with him is just that he's usually focused on something other than the bigger picture that the other guys are seeing. Like here, it's nice of him to personally try to encourage Gaad by telling him that they all agreed to the plan that failed, it wasn't just him. But he's not really being asked to absorb blame--Gaad's going to talk to TPTB on his own. Amador's more giving him personal encouragement. Heh. He's totally the opposite of Stan later, of course. Stan winds up getting Gaad in trouble and rarely seems to consider his co-workers when it comes to what he's doing. Amador seems much more likely to have your back. There's nothing so far where he's presented as bad at his job (he's not Paige as an agent!), there's just also nothing where he's presented as particularly good. I think, for instance, it's significant in The Clock when Gaad asks if they're clear and he says, "I think so" and Gaad prods him by saying, "Come on, Chris." Yeah, it takes all kinds, the conspiracy theorists (in Stan's case he was often right, which Amador came to respect) and the realist, (come on dude, earth to Stan.) There is a scene with Amador and Stan in a car, that to me, fleshed out Amador so much better. I'll have to watch that, they are just talking, on a stake out or something. Amador didn't have the undercover experience Stan had, but I never thought of him as a slug, he obviously had to work very hard to even get into the FBI back then, but I do think he was more than the office joker. He really screwed up when spotting coverage for Stan, but he seemed to learn from that. He did have a sense about Martha, which got him killed. You are right though, he wasn't a well drawn character in many ways. Still, if I were FBI, I'd probably prefer Amador as my partner over Stan. I'd like Stan to be in the next cubicle, and I'd listen to him, I just wouldn't want my actual career hinging on Stan's hunches and rule breaking. Edited August 6, 2018 by Umbelina clarify and typo 1 Link to comment
Erin9 August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 I never liked Gregory. I always thought he was a disrespectful, dismissive manipulative jerk when we met him. Ugh. He sure didn’t like getting dumped. Who does, I know. I never thought much of his relationship with Elizabeth. It mattered. It was real. She did love him. But- for all the talk that it was “real” because there was love there- it’s still about as real as so many affairs are. They don’t have to live with each other. There’s no “day to day crap” as Philip once said. They don’t raise kids together. They aren’t even partners at work. He’s an asset. They have stolen moments here and there over the years where Elizabeth can whine about Philip/not wanting to be a mom, and Gregory can tell her she’s right about everything. Oh and they talk about how amazing the Cause is and how great it is to sacrifice everything for it.....blah blah blah.... The big attraction is Gregory is just like Elizabeth when she arrives. I mean, of course, she loves him. He’s just as obsessed with the Cause to the exclusion of anything else. He wasn’t a challenge to her way of thinking. He wasn’t a challenge to her at all. He didn’t even truly complement her because they were too much alike. He wasn’t much of a thinker from my POV. He decided he didn’t want to go to Moscow, but that’s not saying much. He followed Elizabeth and the Cause. He had no actual life. He didn’t change or evolve. He was the same man he was some 16 years later as he was the day Elizabeth met him. Even she’d changed- and changed before the Pilot. If I didn’t so thoroughly dislike him, I’d feel sorry for him. He never really got it. I think Elizabeth’s domestic life was real to a point- certainly more than Gregory acknowledged. Her kids were certainly real. She did love them. She parented with Philip. She didn’t start out wanting them, she struggled to relate to them, but she loved them, wanted to protect them. Probably the second she became a mom was when she started inching away from Gregory. She didn’t know it. Neither did he. But it was happening just the same imo. I take Philip’s shorter teen romance somewhat more seriously than G/E. That actually existed in the real world. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Erin9 said: Probably the second she became a mom was when she started inching away from Gregory. She didn’t know it. Neither did he. But it was happening just the same imo. Then why didn't she break up with him until over a decade after Paige was born? Or at least cool it on the sex and love affair? Gregory was blindsided, and Elizabeth was nervous, because she knew what she was choosing to leave behind, and how that would make Gregory feel. I don't think she was at all "inching away." She never really thought of Philip that way until the moment we watched him kill Timochev. That was the exact moment things changed for her, or began to, we SEE her go tell Gregory, who was obviously expecting the Elizabeth he was with for 16 or so years, and was shocked when she didn't want sex or "them" to continue. He'd obviously not heard much good stuff about Philip, indeed he knew all of her frustrations and complaints about him, since he subsequently parroted some of them back to her. 2 hours ago, Erin9 said: I take Philip’s shorter teen romance somewhat more seriously than G/E. That actually existed in the real world. I don't understand. Philip had a short fling in KGB school, as a teen/barely an adult. Why is that more serious than a 16 year love affair among adults? The USA is more "the real world" than the heavily regulated and frequently nightmarish KGB school. ???? Edited August 7, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Erin9 August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 Now that I’ve finished up Gregory- mostly- the character...moving onto a few things about the rest of the show. (Except to add he is quite condescending.) @sistermagpie Wow. That was an epic, amazing post. I can’t even begin to address even all the high points yet. I always find it amusing that Claudia’s act never fools Philip. He sees right through her at the diner. Then he realized she’s following him- and confronts her. He absolutely could have just killed her then too. Claudia- the old war horse- got bested by Philip twice. I’m sure she saw him as a threat for many reasons. Him catching her off guard so thoroughly being just one. To Elizabeth and who she wanted her to be- ie-herself. The USSR- since he was more of a thinker, a people person. But- even he never goes the direction she’s truly afraid he’ll go. Arkady read him better. And- like with Gabriel- he gets they’re manipulating them. Gabriel cared- but he certainly played them as needed. Elizabeth didn’t start to really get that until the end. Philip did for a long time. It’s interesting that Philip meets Claudia first when it’s Elizabeth’s one on one relationship with her that dominates. But then he’s the actual threat. And he wins in the end- partially anyway. Elizabeth never learns to think and turns without him. It is also interesting that Elizabeth follows Philip’s lead about what to do with Joyce. She certainly disregards Gregory. But then- he was never her work partner anyway. Stan really was being obnoxious playing racquetball with Philip. No wonder he hit Stan in the back. Stan literally didn’t see it either. Typical of Stan. The only time Philip calls someone a friend- I think- is Robert here and Stan in the end. It is a bit surprising. But- the brief interaction they had did establish that, I think. The little we know of Robert would appeal to Philip. From Timoshev, he left the impression all the illegals were half of a couple (I think), but unless a fair number didn’t work out and the women got sent home/elsewhere, it would seem a fair number of men came alone- Robert and Harvest that we know of. I was shocked when they killed Joyce too. It seemed like it would be easy enough to just take her to Russia with her son. But- that did nicely establish who the KGB are- pretty ruthless. And Claudia was no kindly grandma. Lol 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 7, 2018 Author Share August 7, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Umbelina said: She was still in love with him until the moment Philip killed Timochev. We don't know that. I don't know why Philip's killing Timoshev would kill Elizabeth's love for Gregory as well, but she never seems to want both of them, or want Gregory during the time of the show even after she kicks Philip out. To me it read more like both relationships had changed already. Even if Elizabeth didn't care about Gregory she'd have reason to stay with him after the change but as it was she did care about him. That's also one of the advantages of their arrangement. She can just not see him when she doesn't want to--she sees him here because of Joyce. Quote Yes, she had both men, but one of them was simply a coworker/roommate, and another was the man she was in love with. They were also a mother and father sharing a bed while raising two children together, running a small business and being partners in a very dangerous job while the other was the boyfriend Elizabeth saw when she needed him, either for his professional services or to spend time together focused on their Love or their Purpose. It's apples and oranges, but I don't worry about P&E's relationship having a shaky foundation at all. Quote That could be true. I doubt Gregory was always telling her who she was though, he obviously listened and paid attention. He tried to get her not to smoke when she was pregnant, but immediately accepted her decision to smoke anyway because "she never wanted this kid anyway." I don't think Claudia TOLD Elizabeth what to think either, Claudia was very clear about what SHE thought, and Claudia's job was to give Elizabeth orders from Center. Remember they only got "cozy" in the last season, if anything, Elizabeth usually had the upper hand there. I don't think Gregory usually spent time telling Elizabeth who she was the way he does in this ep. I don't think he usually would have to. It seems like Elizabeth herself would have been part of setting up Gregory's apartment as the place where she could escape from her fake life as a mom. Re: Elizabeth's smoking, we never see or hear about him actually trying to get Elizabeth too quit smoking while pregnant. Elizabeth had a dream where she was smoking in bed with Gregory and he pointed out she was pregnant. We don't know what Elizabeth's smoking policy actually was when pregnant. During the period of the show Gregory encourages her to smoke. I think Gregory's in the dream because he's associated with Elizabeth not wanting kids/life and that's connected to her smoking. I don't even know how much of a thing pregnancy and smoking would have been in 1968/73. Claudia didn't need to *tell* Elizabeth what to think, but she's not very shy about pushing Elizabeth's buttons about letting the Cause down, telling her she's lost without knowing it or sneering about the worthlessness of Elizabeth's family. Quote I think Gregory (somewhat desperately, he loved her) was trying to REMIND her "who she was" not TELL her who to be. There was a lot at stake for him, and in his heart, for her as well. Yes, he thinks and says he's reminding her who she is but he's wrong. Her home life is real. She's not the one who's mistaken about that. Granted, Elizabeth herself probably had a big hand in setting up that dynamic but she's ready to let it go now. Quote As for Philip? In the Gorbachev plot he told her what HE was going to do, no matter what she did. It was one of the very rare times Philip thought for himself and did what he wanted to do, no matter what Elizabeth wanted. (Timochev and the aftermath of the Reagan shooting were two other times I remember.) Who knows? Maybe Elizabeth responds better to men that don't let her walk all over them. When Philip FINALLY doesn't (those 3 times) she shows him respect and maybe it even translated to "love" with the Timochev thing. Thinking about it, that may be key, and now I will re-watch 1-4 specifically looking at that. When she can respect a man and not boss him around and make all the rules, maybe to her, that allows her to "love." She respected Gregory, and he was his own man. Philip was her lapdog, and as soon as he wasn't? She responded. I don't know if I'd hand the lapdog crown to Philip over Gregory, myself, but Gregory stands up to her in this episode and it doesn't do him any good. I don't think Elizabeth just has a thing for people standing up to her in general for any reason. She respects Philip when he stands up to her for reasons she respects. I don't think her problem with Philip was ever that she saw him as a big wimp she could push around because he's easygoing. From what we see on the show it seems like she doesn't see how their values align at first. Quote Yes, but Philip's romance was a teenage affair that probably, at most, lasted 2 years and was very sporadic since they were both in KGB training, and I doubt they had much free time, let alone opportunity for courtship. Elizabeth's was an adult love affair, lasting well over a decade, before and through her children's conception and births, and long after.I think it's pretty tough to equate the two. Also, frankly, Elizabeth's was very serious, where Philip's seemed more like a fun fling, did he really love her? Maybe, but maybe it was just fun and sex and companionship. I wouldn't equate the two affairs either for the reasons you state, but I don't think Philip's romance with Irina was for fun and sex and companionship. They were planning a life together. Maybe it's hard to really say that two kids could love each other on a mature level but Elizabeth and Gregory don't have a full life together either. She spends an episode where she's seriously thinking about preparing her children for the future then goes to Gregory's apartment where he encourages her to get high and horny and only ever puts her kids in the the context of not being real--by contrast, Irina's son is very real even without ever being seen by his father. So yes, teenage young love vs. longterm adult relationship, definitely, but those are their only real exes. Quote You are right though, he wasn't a well drawn character in many ways. Still, if I were FBI, I'd probably prefer Amador as my partner over Stan. I'd like Stan to be in the next cubicle, and I'd listen to him, I just wouldn't want my actual career hinging on Stan's hunches and rule breaking. I would too. But that's the thing, it's not that Amador's some big fuck up. It's just that from everything I've seen the point sees to more be that he needs to follow other's leads rather than leading himself. Which presumably plenty of good agents also do. I think especially in the end Amador proves himself a good person to have on backup. Stan, otoh, seems far more erratic. Stan does far far worse things than Amador as an agent, he just also gets to be a star when he pulls something good off too. Amador's just rarely shown thinking about the big picture--it's not OOC at all that he gets killed because he accidentally got involved in a personal squabble with an Illegal. 3 hours ago, Erin9 said: The big attraction is Gregory is just like Elizabeth when she arrives. I mean, of course, she loves him. He’s just as obsessed with the Cause to the exclusion of anything else. He wasn’t a challenge to her way of thinking. He wasn’t a challenge to her at all. He didn’t even truly complement her because they were too much alike. He wasn’t much of a thinker from my POV. He decided he didn’t want to go to Moscow, but that’s not saying much. He followed Elizabeth and the Cause. He had no actual life. He didn’t change or evolve. He was the same man he was some 16 years later as he was the day Elizabeth met him. Even she’d changed- and changed before the Pilot. If I didn’t so thoroughly dislike him, I’d feel sorry for him. He never really got it. I think Elizabeth’s domestic life was real to a point- certainly more than Gregory acknowledged. Her kids were certainly real. She did love them. She parented with Philip. She didn’t start out wanting them, she struggled to relate to them, but she loved them, wanted to protect them. Probably the second she became a mom was when she started inching away from Gregory. She didn’t know it. Neither did he. But it was happening just the same imo. I take Philip’s shorter teen romance somewhat more seriously than G/E. That actually existed in the real world. I often think Elizabeth knew on some level that having the baby was going to change her that way and that's why she was so scared. It wasn't that she couldn't live the lie. She could live it. There was nothing so bad probably, by then, about living with Philip. It's not like he was asking anything of her as a wife. But having a kid was real and it made the ties to Philip even more solid. Her real life is where her kids are after that, no matter what she might believe or pretend when she's with him. The stuff above is why think the whole lapdog question is complicated. Elizabeth herself is bossy and demanding while also offering total submission to her chosen authority, the Centre. Philip puts up with Elizabeth but stands up to the KGB. Everybody has times they submit and times they hold their ground. You can be both. If Gregory had never met Elizabeth he might have had a fulfilling personal life while also doing things he thought improved the world. He probably wouldn't consider supporting the agenda of the USSR the best way to change the world into the 80s. But as it was he saw Elizabeth when she called and needed/wanted to see him, running a drug network full of guys he lied to all the time. Doubting the cause would really open a black hole there. After Elizabeth dumps him, he's still there to listen, especially if she's maybe going to come back to him. He think he's solidified Elizabeth as the person he says she is in this ep, but actually his death is pushing her further in the other direction. Edited August 7, 2018 by sistermagpie 4 Link to comment
Erin9 August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 @Umbelina When I say Elizabeth was inching away from Gregory- I’m talking priorities and values. She became a parent. She did change. Gregory stayed the same. It wasn’t JUST about the cause anymore to the absolute exclusion of all. It couldn’t be. She wasn’t just like Gregory anymore. And her relationship with Philip naturally shifted. It wasn’t romantic, but it changed. It had to. They had to parent together. It made them more real- though not romantic. I’m not surprised Elizabeth stayed with Gregory. Why leave a man as easy as Gregory? Perfect for Elizabeth, for awhile. But- yes- she was unknowingly inching from him. Dating in the USSR was still dating. Philip and Irina chose to date. It was real. And I never interpreted that relationship as a mere fling. They talked about a future. They seemed serious to me. Though young. And they certainly wouldn’t be just like American teens either. Even Elizabeth didn’t see it as a causal thing. She was quite unhappy he was going to see Irina. And she was right to be. Obviously they still cared for each other. It was first love, probably. Young love, for sure. But they were trying to build something. It’s not the same as an adult relationship, but it sure required more work than an affair. Elizabeth’s affair with Gregory was an affair. A love affair, but a convenient, incredibly easy, undemanding affair with a man who asked nothing of her and never challenged her. Pretty easy to see how it lasted imo. And they never had to deal with real relationship issues because it didn’t function like that. They loved each other over time, as adults, yes. But they weren’t building anything. Ever. And I find Gregory’s maturity level debatable at best. Gregory was more of a lapdog to me. Philip didn’t just smile and nod and agree with her. Part of the problem imo was Philip was never just like her....so she wasn’t initially interested. Couldn’t relate to him. Here was a guy who valued family-of all (unimportant)-things....and people (including their people)....and oh no- had interests beyond the cause.....and heaven forbid was capable of seeing America wasn’t all bad....He didn’t see the world or life just like her. 5 Link to comment
Umbelina August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 14 hours ago, Erin9 said: When I say Elizabeth was inching away from Gregory- I’m talking priorities and values. She became a parent. She did change. Gregory stayed the same. We don't know if Gregory stayed the same though. He used to be an activist, but he was also a criminal. I doubt he "stayed the same" for 16 years. I think his love for Elizabeth probably grew too. We just don't know. They didn't show us. His increase in art could have grown as well. All we do know is that they were together for a very long time. She considered him her soul mate. She considered her "family" her job. She didn't choose to have children with Philip, she never chose Philip. Her job ORDERED her to have children, her job ORDERED her to pretend to be married to Philip. She CHOSE Gregory. For 14-16 years, her emotional life was Gregory. Philip was a roommate/coworker. We weren't shown Gregory and Elizabeth's love at all, except when it was falling apart, after Philip killed Timochev and she finally looked at Philip in a new way, as a possible love interest, instead of KGB partner. 14 hours ago, Erin9 said: And her relationship with Philip naturally shifted. It wasn’t romantic, but it changed. It had to. They had to parent together. It made them more real- though not romantic. This is where we don't really agree. They SHOWED us when Elizabeth changed, we saw in Keri's expressive face, we saw it when she ended things with Gregory, we saw it when she changed her behavior with Philip on screen. It did NOT happen gradually off screen. Parenting? Yes, Elizabeth made sure homework was done, they were fed, they were mostly cared for, but she didn't have a real emotional connection with either child. They were part of her life, but not the most important part. Her job was, her emotional relationship with Gregory was. Actually Elizabeth NEVER did develop much of relationship with Henry, and she only became close to Paige when Paige suddenly was going to share Elizabeth's WORK, the KGB job. 14 hours ago, Erin9 said: Dating in the USSR was still dating. Philip and Irina chose to date. It was real. And I never interpreted that relationship as a mere fling. They talked about a future. They seemed serious to me. Though young. And they certainly wouldn’t be just like American teens either. Even Elizabeth didn’t see it as a causal thing. She was quite unhappy he was going to see Irina. And she was right to be. Obviously they still cared for each other. It was first love, probably. Young love, for sure. But they were trying to build something. It’s not the same as an adult relationship, but it sure required more work than an affair. It lasted, AT MOST 2 years, probably less. It was sporadic, it had to be, because they were both in extreme training. It was secret, because they weren't supposed to do that. I don't, in my wildest dreams, equate a 2 year first love experience with 14-16 years of a love affair, not a sex affair, it was love. I'm not saying Philip and Irina didn't share love. I'm saying it was brief, it was over, and Philip quickly fell in love with Elizabeth, and stayed in love with her, in spite of all of her shit, and her indifferent emotions. So, how "real" was that for Philip? Maybe it was, but he had no regrets, he was all in with Elizabeth right away. 14 hours ago, Erin9 said: Elizabeth’s affair with Gregory was an affair. A love affair, but a convenient, incredibly easy, undemanding affair with a man who asked nothing of her and never challenged her. Pretty easy to see how it lasted imo. And they never had to deal with real relationship issues because it didn’t function like that. They loved each other over time, as adults, yes. But they weren’t building anything. Ever. And I find Gregory’s maturity level debatable at best. Gregory was more of a lapdog to me. I don't see how you can jump to those conclusions, I really don't. When Elizabeth talked to Paige about Gregory, you could hear the admiration in her voice. She detailed his life/childhood/hardships and deeply admired him. Elizabeth's JOB required her to pretend to be married to Philip, she didn't have the option to dump Philip and marry they guy she did love, Gregory. So them not "building a life together" doesn't mean lack of feeling or desire, it just means that, as always, the KGB came first for Elizabeth, at the expense of her own feelings. I also don't see Gregory as her lapdog, in any way. Yes, work wise, he did jobs for her, so, in work only, in KGB stuff only, she was in charge. That doesn't make him a lapdog. Philip on the other hand? Total wuss almost all of the time. Elizabeth made the decisions and he was stuck with them. He didn't really give a shit about the KGB, he knew the USSR was as much of a mess as the USA was, especially as far as injustice. He was "miserable all the time" and wanted to defect FROM THE FIRST EPISODE. Link to comment
Umbelina August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 14 hours ago, Erin9 said: Philip didn’t just smile and nod and agree with her. Part of the problem imo was Philip was never just like her....so she wasn’t initially interested. Couldn’t relate to him. Here was a guy who valued family-of all (unimportant)-things....and people (including their people)....and oh no- had interests beyond the cause.....and heaven forbid was capable of seeing America wasn’t all bad....He didn’t see the world or life just like her. He practically had a breakdown twisting himself into knots because Elizabeth wanted to stay in the KGB, and he DID NOT. He rarely smiled. He just let her make all the rules as far as choices and future, and grimly went along, or stayed with her, no matter how much hell it was for him, or for his daughter. His opinions about the world didn't matter to her, because she was a fanatic and dogmatic, and deeply indoctrinated. His words didn't matter to her, she rejected his views. Eventually, she did recognize how miserable he was and SHE made the decision that "It's OK if you quit." That's as far as she would go, she never considered that him quitting didn't solve anything for him, because she was staying IN, their family was staying IN. Why? Because Elizabeth made the rules. THEN, on top of everything else? She resented him for it, she shut him out, she wouldn't even talk to him, he was unimportant to her. She let his daughter think Philip "couldn't handle it" and she went all in with Paige. He TRIED to tell her about Oleg right away, she shut him down. She didn't want to hear anything from him, she'd rather smoke in the backyard. When did they finally start having a "relationship" again? Why, of COURSE it was when Philip rejoined her as KGB partner in the Chicago operation. Their entire relationship was really KGB, that's the only time they "worked" as a couple. Could they have "worked" as a couple, if Elizabeth had done it Philip's way? Defected, quit the KGB completely, gone into witness protection? Maybe. They never had that chance though, because Elizabeth wouldn't allow it, and Philip, as almost always, caved to her decisions. She never even considered doing it his way, even after the Russian couple and the African man told her the truth about the USSR, even after the wheat murders for a bullshit reason. Elizabeth wouldn't listen. I don't consider that a perfect love, or even a decent love. I don't find it romantic at all. I started talking about this WAY back, many posts are in the Liz/Phil thread here, detailing his wimpiness and the toxic nature of their marriage. In other words, I've felt this way for a long time, not just after the season 5/6 unsatisfying seasons (for me.) As far as Gregory? The one thing we do know is that the relationship lasted a long time. The other thing we do know is that Elizabeth only had something close to a real "marriage" with Philip for 6 years, or at least anything close to "love." Even then, they broke up or were estranged for much of that time. Estranged since Philip left the KGB, so 3 years, or at least much of that time, and then of course, when Elizabeth kicked him out for several months, until she was shot. Even then? Philip was "miserable all the time." I don't call that healthy or good. Real love, to me at least, means compromises because you care just as much about the well being of your partner as you do about yourself. Real love doesn't look like what we saw UNTIL PHILIP REJOINED THE KGB and came to her aid in Chicago. She barely tolerated him, it was as far from "loving" as you could get. Link to comment
Erin9 August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 (edited) I think we just see Elizabeth, Philip and Gregory very differently- the relationships between them and the individual characters. Lol My point is- Elizabeth and Gregory could not even attempt to build something real. And whether they could have been successful...who knows. Point is- they never did. So their “success” is to me debatable because they simply NEVER dealt with any of the things real couples do. It was a very easy relationship that required nothing. And it was all built around Elizabeth. It had to be. Her job, her time, her cover, her kids, what she needed him for. I’m not debating the depth of Elizabeth’s feelings. I know they were strong and real. But the fact it lasted so long is simply not that impressive to me for a lot of reasons. There’s no evidence to me that suggests Gregory did change. In the end he was all about the cause and Elizabeth. That was what really mattered. Nothing changed. He was who he was. Definite lapdog to me. From my POV he accepted scraps, which added up to not very much. He sure wasn’t a deep thinker. He mirrored Elizabeth too much for that. And really- here was a guy committing treason against his own country- but didn’t want to leave it either. Guess it wasn’t so bad.....(And I do get why he was recruited. Easy target. Very easy.) Just to add one thing- in the end Philip risked everything on the idea of something better for his country. He spent all of S6 doing it. Apparently his desire to defect wasn’t that strong, or he’d have done it during the season that he spent consistently doing what he wanted. But- you and I totally disagree on how badly Philip wanted to defect as a regular day to day issue. Had Philip defected in the end- I would have put more weight on that desire in the pilot. As it was- I think he was mostly propelled by fear then. And I disagree that he stayed in active service for so long solely for Elizabeth. It wasn’t all about her imo. But, some of this is another post entirely. Edited August 7, 2018 by Erin9 5 Link to comment
Umbelina August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 9 minutes ago, Erin9 said: He sure wasn’t a deep thinker. He mirrored Elizabeth too much for that. And really- here was a guy committing treason against his own country- but didn’t want to leave it either. Guess it wasn’t so bad.....(And I do get why he was recruited. Easy target. Very easy.) He held those beliefs BEFORE he even met Elizabeth though. They shared the beliefs that society (rich/poor, black/white) was inherently unfair. She expanded his commitment, and he began working for the KGB, but she didn't really have to "recruit" him much, he was already there. They met at a protest. He didn't want to go to Russia, which was equally (if not MORE) racist, and had even less opportunity for him. Had Claudia agreed to send him somewhere else, he may have gone. He actually seemed to know more about the USSR than Elizabeth did. 12 minutes ago, Erin9 said: here’s no evidence to me that suggests Gregory did change. In the end he was all about the cause and Elizabeth. That was what really mattered. Nothing changed. He was who he was. Definite lapdog to me. From my POV he accepted scraps, which added up to not very much. He sure wasn’t a deep thinker. He mirrored Elizabeth too much for that. And really- here was a guy committing treason against his own country- but didn’t want to leave it either. Guess it wasn’t so bad.....(And I do get why he was recruited. Easy target. Very easy.) Again, he cared about art. He cared about his people, and about racism, poverty long before he ever met Elizabeth. He may have had socialist leanings, in fact, I think he did, but he also was, if anything, more aware than Elizabeth that communism/dictatorship was no better than the rigged and racist USA system. Saying "he wasn't a deep thinker" or "he did it all for Elizabeth" either has no foundation or is inherently untrue, since he was already involved before he ever met her. We HAVE to consider the 14-16 year endurance of their love, because the show didn't give us much more than that. I'm simply saying, I can't dismiss that they lasted that long. Her life with Philip, and even with her kids, was a ROLE she had to play, because the KGB ordered her to play it. Her life with Gregory was a CHOICE she made, because she was in love with him. She didn't honeypot him, she wanted to be there with him. He wasn't in anyway a "Martha." 17 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Just to add one thing- in the end Philip risked everything on the idea of something better for his country. He spent all of S6 doing it. Apparently his desire to defect wasn’t that strong, or he’d have done it during the season that he spent consistently doing what he wanted. But- you and I totally disagree on how badly Philip wanted to defect as a regular day to day issue. Had Philip defected in the end- I would have put more weight on that desire in the pilot. As it was- I think he was mostly propelled by fear then. No. He knew "his country" was a nightmare. He, like anyone, wanted something better, but he already knew all he was doing wasn't changing that, that it was too big a mess to change. He killed people, usually for a bullshit reason. He didn't like the USA either. He only stayed because of Elizabeth. PERIOD. He didn't defect because of Elizabeth. He hated his life, hated what Paige's life was going to be. He wanted out. The only compromise Elizabeth made was for him to get out of the KGB, but not their life, since she was still in it. THEN, she made him pay for that, on a daily basis, by shutting him out in every way. She wouldn't even listen to him when he told her he wanted to talk about something important. That was no "marriage" and she certainly didn't show him one bit of "love" until he rejoined the KGB in Chicago. She showed him love when he did what SHE wanted. 23 minutes ago, Erin9 said: And I disagree that he stayed in active service for so long solely for Elizabeth. It wasn’t all about her imo. But, some of this is another post entire It's the entire topic right now, but taking it to the Philezabeth thread might be better. You see it as a great love. I don't. I see it as a nightmare and Philip as more of a masochist, I don't believe "love" is one person calling all the shots, especially when the love object is miserable with each shot the other one calls. Link to comment
sistermagpie August 7, 2018 Author Share August 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Her life with Philip, and even with her kids, was a ROLE she had to play, because the KGB ordered her to play it. Her life with Gregory was a CHOICE she made, because she was in love with him. She didn't honeypot him, she wanted to be there with him. He wasn't in anyway a "Martha." Isn't the whole point of their exes that she chose to be with Gregory, Philip chose to be with Irina and then Philip and Elizabeth both chose to be with each other? These are the only actual relationships in their lives are because they're all things they chose for themselves when they were in love with that person, as opposed to anything they were doing for some other reason. But even before Elizabeth chose Philip as a romantic partner her life was real. She's not just playing a role when she's raising the kids. She doesn't want to pierce Paige's ears because she thinks that's required for her part of Mom. She's not pretending to love and feel responsibility for her children. She actually does. And she knows she shares that feeling with Philip. She's not in love with him and not pretending to be. 43 minutes ago, Umbelina said: He held those beliefs BEFORE he even met Elizabeth though. They shared the beliefs that society (rich/poor, black/white) was inherently unfair. She expanded his commitment, and he began working for the KGB, but she didn't really have to "recruit" him much, he was already there. They met at a protest. Gregory shared the beliefs she had about equality and maybe was even a Socialist, but that didn't make him KGB or loyal to any other country than his own, really. They didn't meet a protest for the KGB. Gregory does seem to say that he sees the Cause the same way Elizabeth does, but her view of that reality is pretty skewed. He's really just working to advance a country he has no personal affection for that's just as racist as his own with less opportunity for him. 48 minutes ago, Umbelina said: No. He knew "his country" was a nightmare. He, like anyone, wanted something better, but he already knew all he was doing wasn't changing that, that it was too big a mess to change. He killed people, usually for a bullshit reason. He didn't like the USA either. He only stayed because of Elizabeth. PERIOD. I know this is how you read it, but I think the show put a whole lot of effort into showing something completely different. That seems to be one of the main things driving S6. Philip *does* care about this stuff. It's not like he doesn't want to do stuff and then there's an implication that Elizabeth will dump him if he doesn't so he does it. He wants something better for his country. He wishes he still believed what he's doing does that. He struggles with the fear that he's doing all this for nothing for 4 seasons, at which point he trusts that Elizabeth can do this without him and quits. But when he's handed something that actually does seem important that will help his country, he wants to do it because he cares even if it threatens his marriage and sets him against Elizabeth. Just like Elizabeth cares about her family. She struggles with the idea that she shouldn't care about them overmuch, but when she just represses that feeling she's miserable and dead inside. They both care about both things. That's why I'd also completely disagree there's no marriage in S6. There's no question of them not sticking it out even when Elizabeth's at her nastiest. They've both gotten themselves into situations that are making them miserable, but Elizabeth is the more far gone of the two so Philip's there for her in ways she isn't there for anyone. Philip's pretty much the only person in her life she expressing actual feelings to, which sometimes sucks for him, but he can take it. They get unstuck when Elizabeth reveals her misery to Philip and Philip realizes that the right choice for him is to be open with her, so he does that and she listens to him even though she's angry. They haven't fundamentally grown apart. They don't just just ignore or put up with the things about each other that make them different, like Philip's love of mundane life and people and Elizabeth's giant faith. They're not in love with the other person in some arbitrary sense while not liking most of the actual person. I think the point is that they also love these things in each other. They're happiest when they have a balance of doing work they find meaningful that helps people while still being able to enjoy life for its own sake without feeling guilty about it. They're not happy when they just have the one that was their favorite. That's a large part, imo, of why it's written with them falling in love after years of living together platonically, to get past the surface glamour or seeing what they want to see. They know each other--they know each even enough to know they can surprise each other. They have too much experience being irritated with each other to think of themselves as living a grand romance, imo. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina August 7, 2018 Share August 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: That's why I'd also completely disagree there's no marriage in S6. There's no question of them not sticking it out even when Elizabeth's at her nastiest. I never said there wasn't a marriage. I said it's almost ALWAYS been Elizabeth's way or the highway as far as choices "they" make as a couple. I also said the first time she was even slightly decent to him during season 6 was when he went back to work for the KGB. In no way did I ever see Gregory as pussy whipped, OR as doing anything he didn't want to do. Philip? His whole life has been shit he didn't want to do, and he's done it because of his obsession with Elizabeth. Totally pussy whipped. When has he ever stood up to her? 3 times that I remember. Heck he didn't even quit the KGB until she told him he could. I do think Elizabeth was playing a role, American mom and wife, just as the KGB ordered. I don't think Elizabeth cared about her kids, but I do think she cared for them, food, clothes, homework, although from the sounds of it, they left them alone in the house for years while on night jobs. She didn't enjoy them though, they were never the focus of her life, or even a priority, neither was Philip, although that changed when he killed Timochev, and she seemed to suddenly see him in a different way (perhaps stronger, not such a wimp, who knows?) Elizabeth only really took an interest in Paige after she knew the KGB wanted Paige, and because Elizabeth was replaying her own mother/daughter relationship, and Elizabeth finally saw something she might like about Paige in a real way, "she can be like me!" Henry? Please. There is nothing wrong with knowing what you want and dedicating all of your attention to it. Elizabeth was a far better soldier/spy than Philip would ever be, at least as far as her bosses were concerned. THAT is what she cared about, the KGB, and for more than a decade, Gregory. I'm not saying she hated Philip, or never appreciated him, at least job-wise. Roommates can be friendly, and co-workers can make good teams. What I am saying is that this "love" she has is pretty new. They broke up for months, and who knows if she's been this hateful to him during the whole 3 year break or not? If so, that gives them what? 2 1/2 years of kinda getting along? She never considered Philip's desire to defect/quit or live "normal lives." His pleas fell of deaf ears, she would never choose him over the KGB, and she never did. ETA Philip DID choose Elizabeth though. He chose her over everything, over his daughter, over his mental and emotional well being by continuing to work for the KGB even when he really didn't want to, over his desire to defect. He got over the fact that she lied to him for most of their time together (about Gregory) and he gave up "quitting" the KGB for her when she needed him. It just seems terribly lopsided to me, and thus, not healthy. Elizabeth is an obsessive person, but Philip's love for Elizabeth seemed to be his one obsession. Is obsession love? Not to me. Is love doing what you want to do even if those things make your partner completely miserable? Not to me. Is "love" being unwilling to even listen to your husband when he tells you he has something important to tell her? No. It isn't. Further? Mocking him about "feelings" and making him pay for leaving a hated job by ignoring him for months/years doesn't sound like love to me. It does sound like a teenage romantic novel version of love though, at least on Philip's part. Now he's stuck in a collapsing soviet union, a place he had no actual fond memories of, about to face complete chaos, without his kids, and after having pissed off a bunch of Coup members, who are used to killing (military/KGB/politburo.) He should have defected. He should have put his foot down about Paige. Any decent shrink in the world would have told him that. Edited August 8, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie August 8, 2018 Author Share August 8, 2018 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: I never said there wasn't a marriage. I said it's almost ALWAYS been Elizabeth's way or the highway as far as choices "they" make as a couple. I also said the first time she was even slightly decent to him during season 6 was when he went back to work for the KGB. In no way did I ever see Gregory as pussy whipped, OR as doing anything he didn't want to do. It's Elizabeth's way in Gregory's relationship too. I don't think he wants his relationship to be existing when Elizabeth wants to get away from her husband and kids in the suburbs, but he he takes what he can get. He and Elizabeth have made this a noble virtue, though, so Gregory can take whatever and still have his pride. Then Elizabeth goes and gets more for herself. 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: Philip? His whole life has been shit he didn't want to do, and he's done it because of his obsession with Elizabeth. Totally pussy whipped. When has he ever stood up to her? 3 times that I remember. Heck he didn't even quit the KGB until she told him he could. I think this is why the relationship makes more sense to me, because I see the show intentionally having Philip persuaded by the idea that an op helping the country (or just being motivated by thinking that himself) as opposed to scenes where Philip doesn't want to do something but then Elizabeth witholds affection or yells at him and he agrees to get back in her good graces. This also makes the relationship make more sense. Instead of Philip being a guy who arbitrarily loves Elizabeth even though he doesn't care about or actively dislikes everything that Elizabeth is about, Philip actually loves her in part because of those very things. He's a doubter but he's attracted to her faith. Just as she's a true believer but is attracted to his doubts. 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: I do think Elizabeth was playing a role, American mom and wife, just as the KGB ordered. I don't think Elizabeth cared about her kids, but I do think she cared for them, food, clothes, homework, although from the sounds of it, they left them alone in the house for years while on night jobs. She didn't enjoy them though, they were never the focus of her life, or even a priority, neither was Philip, although that changed when he killed Timochev, and she seemed to suddenly see him in a different way (perhaps stronger, not such a wimp, who knows?) There again I think it just all looks different to me because I don't see that. It seems to me a big part of the show is Elizabeth loving her children. If she doesn't than yeah, the whole central relationship doesn't make sense. In this version Philip has no interest in activism throughout the entire run of the show and Elizabeth doesn't love or care about her children and only likes Philip because he killed Timoshev (though she's presumably seen him kill people before). I see a lot of time on the show dedicated to Elizabeth actually loving her children and Philip and struggling because she thinks this is wrong just as Philip actually wants to make things better for people and struggling because the way he's been taught to do it doesn't seem right. I see Elizabeth being interested in Paige from the pilot on and truly regretting her distance from Henry who she took for granted earlier because he was good-natured. If I imagine that part for her character just isn't there than I, too, don't see as much of a point to her story. I'm not sure why she puts herself through half the things she does or why she's so miserable when she lives up to this very same ideal and I'm not sure why she breaks up with Gregory. Why not keep him on hand for sex and reminders about how the valuable thing about her is that she's strong and committed to the Cause above all else, since that's what she really wants to be? I don't even see why Philip killing Timoshev is that important to her. 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: Elizabeth only really took an interest in Paige after she knew the KGB wanted Paige, and because Elizabeth was replaying her own mother/daughter relationship, and Elizabeth finally saw something she might like about Paige in a real way, "she can be like me!" Henry? Please. There is nothing wrong with knowing what you want and dedicating all of your attention to it. Elizabeth was a far better soldier/spy than Philip would ever be, at least as far as her bosses were concerned. THAT is what she cared about, the KGB, and for more than a decade, Gregory. I'm not saying she hated Philip, or never appreciated him, at least job-wise. Roommates can be friendly, and co-workers can make good teams. I didn't think you meant she hated him. I was just saying that they know exactly what they're getting when they choose each other. 4 hours ago, Umbelina said: It just seems terribly lopsided to me, and thus, not healthy. Elizabeth is an obsessive person, but Philip's love for Elizabeth seemed to be his one obsession. Is obsession love? Not to me. Is love doing what you want to do even if those things make your partner completely miserable? Not to me. Is "love" being unwilling to even listen to your husband when he tells you he has something important to tell her? No. It isn't. Further? Mocking him about "feelings" and making him pay for leaving a hated job by ignoring him for months/years doesn't sound like love to me. It does sound like a teenage romantic novel version of love though, at least on Philip's part. Now he's stuck in a collapsing soviet union, a place he had no actual fond memories of, about to face complete chaos, without his kids, and after having pissed off a bunch of Coup members, who are used to killing (military/KGB/politburo.) He should have defected. He should have put his foot down about Paige. Any decent shrink in the world would have told him that. Elizabeth's a mess, I agree. I think that's intentional, especially in the last season where she gets the life she claimed she wanted and it's not worth living. But I think Philip also sees that she's cracking and messed up and so a lot of her insults don't hit him personally. Even Henry can see she's terribly unhappy. Philip's healthier than she is in that last season but he's still messed up too. Elizabeth sacrifices everything for the KGB who cares about her far less than she cares about Philip, imo. (She's not letting people rape him as a perk, at least.) But that's what she wants to do. I don't think Philip ever regrets not defecting, especially after finding his life in S6 disappointing. I don't think he'll regret his later choices either. That seems one of the main things about him in S6 is him knowing what choices are right for him and making them. He doesn't want to kidnap Kimmy just because Elizabeth asks and he doesn't. He does want to assist Elizabeth in saving Harvest. He knew when he told Elizabeth about Breeland that he was giving up a life in Russia with the kids. He was the only one who knew about the tape. He could have destroyed it without Elizabeth ever knowing and gotten it all. He made the decision to pass on that info. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 8, 2018 Share August 8, 2018 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: In this version Philip has no interest in activism throughout the entire run of the show and Elizabeth doesn't love or care about her children and only likes Philip because he killed Timoshev (though she's presumably seen him kill people before). I think Elizabeth loved her kids in her own way. She barely knew Henry though, and that's what I mean about her priorities. It was always the KGB first, and everyone else after that. You don't see Timochev as a turning point for them? I thought that was VERY clear, that's the spark that changed Philip in her mind. It's not that he killed him, it's that he killed him BECAUSE Timochev raped/hurt Elizabeth when she was younger. He gave up his chance to defect, he gave up his own happiness, because he cared about Elizabeth so much, not just now, but past Elizabeth as well. Look at her face, and look what she does next, she goes and breaks up a very long relationship with Gregory. That's the point when she begins to think her pretend marriage to Philip might be worth the chance of trying to make it real. It's very moving really. Philip didn't do it for that reason, and that made it matter to her even more. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I see Elizabeth being interested in Paige from the pilot on and truly regretting her distance from Henry who she took for granted earlier because he was good-natured. "That kid is weird." For most of the show, the focus has been on Paige finding out, and then being trained as KGB. It's also mostly been about Elizabeth. Obviously her phone calls to Henry were very rare, he was surprised to hear from her. Losing them though at the end? I think she realized then how much she did care for them, and hopefully maybe, how many opportunities to really "know" them she passed up. For the KGB. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I didn't think you meant she hated him. I was just saying that they know exactly what they're getting when they choose each other. I do think they made an effort to get to know each other. I wish I knew if she'd been cutting him out of her life for the past three years, or if it was just this season that she became so nasty to him. She was so gung ho about training Paige, but she wouldn't even listen to Philip when he told her it was important, and he needed to talk to her. "What, FEELINGS again?" 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I don't think Philip ever regrets not defecting, especially after finding his life in S6 disappointing. I don't think he'll regret his later choices either. That seems one of the main things about him in S6 is him knowing what choices are right for him and making them. He doesn't want to kidnap Kimmy just because Elizabeth asks and he doesn't. Oh I do think he regrets not defecting, and I think he will regret it even more once the soviet union falls, and there is even less food, less electricity, and absolute chaos for years, ending up to the closest thing to Stalin since Stalin died, Putin. All that work, all those murders, all that pain and angst and fear and "feeling like shit all the time" for nothing, for a new Czar in everything but name. I hope Philip can get out of there. Maybe Elizabeth will finally listen to him, because though the fall and aftermath of the USSR will be problematic for Philip, I think it will be devastating for Elizabeth, the true believer... I also think Philip will be more prepared for the reality of the USSR, Elizabeth has her rose colored glasses firmly in place, she didn't want to hear anything that Russian couple said about living there. I'm not shocked you guys don't agree with me about the unhealthy relationship, (hee) but I am TRULY shocked that you didn't see Philip killing Timochev as their turning point, Elizabeth changed everything after that, she wanted to "try" to be a real couple. Link to comment
sistermagpie August 8, 2018 Author Share August 8, 2018 (edited) 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: I think Elizabeth loved her kids in her own way. She barely knew Henry though, and that's what I mean about her priorities. It was always the KGB first, and everyone else after that. It was like that by the last season, but she was also completely miserable then. 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: You don't see Timochev as a turning point for them? I thought that was VERY clear, that's the spark that changed Philip in her mind I absolutely see that as a turning point for them, of course, but I'm seeing it in context of what I think Elizabeth really believes and wants. I do think it makes her see Philip differently in multiple ways, but none of them, to me, are connected to him being a wimp or not. And nothing about it seems like it would make Elizabeth stop loving Gregory if she was in love with him until that. 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: "That kid is weird." For most of the show, the focus has been on Paige finding out, and then being trained as KGB. It's also mostly been about Elizabeth. Obviously her phone calls to Henry were very rare, he was surprised to hear from her. Losing them though at the end? I think she realized then how much she did care for them, and hopefully maybe, how many opportunities to really "know" them she passed up. For the KGB. I agree that Elizabeth was never able to really get Henry--she has a very limited ability to understand people who are very different from herself--I think Philip's her biggest achievement in that area. But she wouldn't be the first parent who couldn't connect with a kid personally and had difficulty showing affection. I think she was naive about how not having him in the house would change things too. (Matthew seems to experience something kind of similar with Stan.) But it didn't play to me as Elizabeth just never caring about him and only now that he's gone suddenly realizing that she loves the kid. It seems to me like the whole thing with Elizabeth throughout the show is that she believes she should put the Cause above everything and is actually terrified of not doing that, but to do that she has to repress the love she actually has for individual people. 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: I do think they made an effort to get to know each other. I wish I knew if she'd been cutting him out of her life for the past three years, or if it was just this season that she became so nasty to him. She was so gung ho about training Paige, but she wouldn't even listen to Philip when he told her it was important, and he needed to talk to her. "What, FEELINGS again?" I think the idea is that it's taken a while for all of them to get to where they are now, even if it was a straight road. She's not just being nasty to Philip, she's nasty about life in general. She isn't happy about being disconnected from Philip. If she'd been in this state for 3 years I think she'd be dead by 1987. 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: Oh I do think he regrets not defecting, and I think he will regret it even more once the soviet union falls, and there is even less food, less electricity, and absolute chaos for years, ending up to the closest thing to Stalin since Stalin died, Putin. Obviously there's no way to say for sure but I don't think he regrets not defecting at all. Sure it would have been great for him if Elizabeth wanted to defect too and they built a life together undercover that was satisfying for both of them, but that's not who she was--just as she probably would have loved it if Philip stayed happy with spying as long as she did. But then they wouldn't be P&E. (And those lives would have probably brought their own problems.) But I'm not thinking about it wrt practical things like less electricity or not liking what happens to the USSR. I think as a character he knew what he was risking when he made his choices and accepted that at the time. It totally seems like the right choice for him. That is, it was a choice that reflected who he really was. Edited August 8, 2018 by sistermagpie Link to comment
Erin9 August 8, 2018 Share August 8, 2018 (edited) I see Timoshev as a big turning point. I never said I didn’t. I just don’t weigh it quite the same way. I agree that if Elizabeth was so deeply in love with Gregory still, then Philip killing Timoshev shouldn’t have made a big enough impact to result in her breaking up with him. And I doubt she ever saw him as a wimp. With the stuff Philip did all the time? Highly unlikely imo. Wimps aren’t spies. Certainly not gold standard ones. She knew his talents. Long haul, I doubt Philip has regrets about defecting. But who can know for sure. I just feel if that had been his over riding concern we’d have seen a very different man over the last few seasons- one less driven by still helping his people, one less willing to risk his life and marriage for his country, and not someone who ultimately gave up the opportunity to go home as a family because he couldn’t destroy the tape. He understood the increased value of Breeland’s tapes due to his new job to the interests of his country, such as it was and despite his burnout and disillusionment. He knew they were staying when he told Elizabeth about it. Philip was obviously more than capable of lying to Elizabeth to obtain his objective if he wanted to. But- like William before him- couldn’t fully turn away. He still cared too much. Also...a lot of the defectors we saw deeply hated- hated- their homeland- with reason, were greedy, naive- or some combination of the above. Not all, I’m sure. I can’t remember. But it describes some of them. That’s not Philip. Elizabeth was awful to basically everyone and nasty about everything in S6- and Philip knew she was messed up. But- there was a great scene between her and the priest who married and betrayed them about how she and Philip were living separate lives. She was quite sad about it. She just didn’t know how to say it to Philip and didn’t know how to fix it. Another example is art. Gregory notes she knows nothing about art. And she laughingly agrees. She has a sense of humor about it. There’s no disdain in her tone about art. FF to S6. She has total disdain for art. She doesn’t get it. Can’t see it. Thinks it is a total waste of time. Her attitude and tone is strikingly darker. She was in a very very bad place. I really don’t see Philip as obsessed with Elizabeth or having some kind of obsessed love for her. He loved her, but didn’t act in an obsessed or overly possessive manner. If he’d actually been obsessed, doing their jobs would have been absolutely impossible. And really- he wouldn’t have done things that he knew could result in the end of their relationship. I don’t see it. Edited August 8, 2018 by Erin9 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 8, 2018 Author Share August 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: really don’t see Philip as obsessed with Elizabeth or having some kind of obsessed love for her. He loved her, but didn’t act in an obsessed or overly possessive manner. If he’d actually been obsessed, doing their jobs would have been absolutely impossible. And really- he wouldn’t have done things that he knew could result in the end of their relationship. I don’t see it. Yeah there's a lot of moments in the show that ought to go a different way if throughout the series he wants out and stays because of a submissive love for Elizabeth. I just really do think they're choosing something in themselves that they like when they choose each other. In the 6th season they miss each other (it's not working as Philip says) but also are both explicitly unfulfilled in the lives they've chosen where the othercside of themselves is just gone. They have to find a new way now that's not just a return to before. Philip seems to be saying that outright before they run. Link to comment
Erin9 August 8, 2018 Share August 8, 2018 (edited) One other thing on Philip and defection. Philip was more than capable of doing what he wanted and forcing Elizabeth to live with it, regardless of the consequences to their marriage. See all of S6. He absolutely could have pulled an Alexei and blindsided her. He didn’t. If he really wanted to tell the US government things that would get people he knew killed, arrested and do serious damage to the national security of his country, he would have. Since he cared so much about people and the security of home, it’s not that surprising to me he didn’t ultimately do that. As Gabriel said- they knew too much and had seen too much. Him defecting would have been devastating- and he’d know that good and well. He’d also know they’d be hunted to the ends of the earth. They really would have been dead then too imo. He also could have brought the subject up and just argued his POV with her repeatedly. He wasn’t afraid of arguing with Elizabeth repeatedly on subjects he was passionate about- and he knew she disagreed with him on. And- I have no doubt Philip knew EXACTLY how Elizabeth was going to react to his defection idea in the pilot. He knew her. He argued it anyway, again, imo, primarily out of fear. If he was so driven by that thought he could have and would argued it again imo. But- then I don’t think Philip was obsessed with Elizabeth to the exclusion of everything either. Everything wasn’t all about her. Doesn’t fit too much of what I saw from him. I think what Philip would have really liked was an impossible dream: he would have liked to stay in the US with his family without having to spy anymore or betray his country in order to stay. ETA- If he was really obsessed with Elizabeth or really wanted to defect- he would have handled their emotional and physical separation in S1 far differently. He didn’t try to fix things with Elizabeth after he moved out. He didn’t even take the bait she dangled in his hotel room and come home. Nope. He’s getting an apartment instead. She had to ask him to come home. That would have been a great time to defect too. They were at their lowest point imo- they wouldn’t even live together. If Philip wanted it that badly, that would have been another good time to do it. And I don’t think his overwhelming love for Elizabeth kept him from doing it. He did ultimately what he wanted imo. Edited August 9, 2018 by Erin9 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 9, 2018 Share August 9, 2018 (edited) He could NOT defect without her, unless he wanted her to end up in prison. I suppose he might have said, "Yo, I'm defecting, so you better split." but that might end with him dead. As far as Timochev? That was the turning point for Elizabeth. At least that is absolutely what the show implied. Right after that incident she ends her love affair with Gregory, and won't allow Gregory to insult/joke about Philip anymore, something that they obviously used to do. Right after the killing, Elizabeth tells him she wants to try it for real, in several ways. Seeing Philip kill her rapist DID change her. I realize that some don't want to accept that Elizabeth loved Gregory first and more than twice as long (8 times as long if you consider their break up and the way she treated/insulted/ignored Philip after the time jump) but she did. As for how "real" it was? If it wasn't real for them, it would not have lasted that long. If she'd had those kind of feelings (at all) for Philip in 16 years, it wouldn't have happened at all. Liz is many things, but she's not a cheater once she's committed. Sex is just sex, but love is something she made very clear needs to be exclusive. Edited August 9, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Erin9 August 9, 2018 Share August 9, 2018 (edited) Philip told Elizabeth that he was spying on her and working against the coup plot. That could have meant his death. It could have meant his death when he blew the Kimmie op sky high. He certainly wasn’t afraid of telling Elizabeth things she didn’t want to hear that could have gotten him killed. If he wanted to defect with or without her- he could have done exactly what he thought about doing in the Pilot. I don’t buy he just couldn’t do it. IF he wanted to that badly. I have never said- again- that Philip killing Timoshev was meaningless to Elizabeth and their relationship. But- why did she decide building a relationship with Philip was more important than the relationship she’d had with Gregory for so long? It was more than just Timoshev imo. There had to be something missing in her relationship with Gregory, and on some level, she knew it. Edited August 9, 2018 by Erin9 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 9, 2018 Author Share August 9, 2018 (edited) I think everyone accepts that she loved Gregory first and loved only Gregory for however many years she loved Gregory. You'd have to actually rewrite the show to suggest otherwise. Likewise, I think it's explicit that the Timoshev moment is the moment that makes her take the step in the car that starts the Jennings' actual attempt at romance. I think that's a different issue than talking about just the practical realities of the relationship itself. Philip and Elizabeth's relationship was always day-to-day with a lot of mundane stuff in a variety of contexts even after they got together. Elizabeth and Gregory's relationship was presumably very different since it was an affair--probably much more romantic for one thing. Likewise Philip and Irina's relationship was a young love relationship that was more about potential and dreams of the future than the lived day-to-day of a marriage. They could have had no idea how any marriage they planned would have worked or evolved. I couldn't say when Elizabeth stopped being in love with Gregory, I just know it happened before the show because she's ready to break up with him in 1x3. If the Timoshev thing hadn't happened then imo in 1.3 Elizabeth would have gone to see Gregory, smoked with him, maybe had sex and had a romantic time with him both times she went to his apartment. Maybe she never would have taken the step with Philip or broken up with Gregory. She wouldn't have been any more in love with him than she was in this universe because Timoshev had no connection to that, but I think she could easily have had this as her one romance in her life and that's it. I don't think that would have been that hard for her--she cares about him a lot, he still has all the qualities she loved in him--the qualities she thinks she should admire most. Both of them agreed that love wasn't the priority anyway. I don't think Elizabeth's feelings about Philip were *only* about Timoshev. That was the thing that made her actually consider taking the huge step of trying to be together for real, but there had to be something there before that to make her have that reaction to it. She wouldn't have just had the same reaction as she had with Philip with any guy who killed Timoshev, even at a cost to himself. That gesture must have, imo, made the whole man come into focus clearly. The history's important for everybody. I guess part of the reason that moment is so important is that Philip makes this impulsive gesture with no long-term agenda for it and it winds up opening up a possibility in a relationship neither of them had ever imagined. Not just in terms of her thinking of him romantically, but a romance that's not just about standing side by side against an enemy or whatever. The dark garage is kind of a reflection of the dark warehouse wedding later. Gregory never seriously asked for the kind situation P&E will have. By the end of season 1 Philip won't accept anything less. Edited August 9, 2018 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 9, 2018 Share August 9, 2018 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: Philip told Elizabeth that he was spying on her and working against the coup plot. That could have meant his death. It could have meant his death when he blew the Kimmie op sky high. He certainly wasn’t afraid of telling Elizabeth things she didn’t want to hear that could have gotten him killed. If he wanted to defect with or without her- he could have done exactly what he thought about doing in the Pilot. I don’t buy he just couldn’t do it. IF he wanted to that badly. It would get Elizabeth killed or jailed if Philip defected WITHOUT her. As for her? She was already reporting about him to Center. Would they order her to kill him? Maybe. They might just take care of it themselves. Either way, they had to defect TOGETHER for both to be safe. 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: But- why did she decide building a relationship with Philip was more important than the relationship she’d had with Gregory for so long? It was more than just Timoshev imo. There had to be something missing in her relationship with Gregory, and on some level, she knew it. Could be. I think her view of Philip changed in that moment, and when she changed her view of him, she saw things that mattered to her, even though she never had before. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I think everyone accepts that she loved Gregory first and loved only Gregory for however many years she loved Gregory. At least from before she got pregnant with Paige, and up until the show began in 1981. Minimum 14 years. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I don't think Elizabeth's feelings about Philip were *only* about Timoshev. That was the thing that made her actually consider taking the huge step of trying to be together for real, but there had to be something there before that to make her have that reaction to it. She wouldn't have just had the same reaction as she had with Philip with any guy who killed Timoshev, even at a cost to himself. That gesture must have, imo, made the whole man come into focus clearly. The history's important for everybody. I agree, as I said above before I read your post, it was what made her (finally) take a second look at Philip, and realize she might be able to love him after all. (romantically) Timochev was the catalyst, and I never implied he was the only reason, Philip acting as he did, giving up freedom from the KGB because his feelings for her, and her pain being raped were more important was what made Elizabeth look at him in a new way, after years together, in America, and in the USSR for a couple of years before that. She didn't have a "spark" with him, until then. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Gregory never seriously asked for the kind situation P&E will have. We don't know that. I doubt he would ever ask her to choose between him and her beloved KGB though. 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: By the end of season 1 Philip won't accept anything less. ??? Philip had more options there, Elizabeth wouldn't have to make a choice, and they were already pretending to be married, so "making it real" wasn't difficult. What I was saying about Philip being a wuss or pussy whipped, by the way, in no way implied he could handle himself in a fight, or easily murder or protect himself. It meant that it was ALWAYS "Elizabeth's way." She made the rules, he followed them, even though he hated his life, the life she insisted they have. He stood up to her a very few times. You reminded me of Kimmie. So, Kimmie, Reagan's shooting "coup," (for once we do it my way) and Timochev, then the Gorbachev "coup." I think Philip was very very good for Elizabeth, he was exactly what she needed to thrive. I think Elizabeth was a complete disaster for Philip, he was "miserable all the time" and now he's stuck in a collapsing USSR, with the coup people, including Claudia very pissed off, and without his children. Link to comment
Erin9 August 9, 2018 Share August 9, 2018 (edited) Elizabeth could have opted to go into hiding herself if Philip defected without her- and told her in advance. Or she could have turned him in first or killed him. Or gone along with it. They had the defection discussion in the Pilot. So it is not beyond reality that Philip would do what he wanted and Elizabeth could make her own choice. We’re not going to agree on this. Philip defecting and telling Elizabeth had risks just like telling her he was spying and going against the coup. Philip also could have decided to go into hiding with the kids without the help of the US government. Pull an Irina. She got caught, but help from the US government was not guaranteed safety either. Elizabeth could go or not. Kill him or let him go. Tell or not tell. Philip obviously didn’t want to do that either though. ETA- Honestly though- I think one factor in Philip’s decision making is in the end he didn’t want to do something he knew without a doubt would bring the full weight of the entire KGB/Moscow government down on him. (The coup is a different thing imo.) Disappearing into America one way or another would do that. No doubt. In mid S5, he and Elizabeth are both saying to Gabriel they really don’t want to do all the traveling/seductions. In the car- Philip asks if Elizabeth thinks they’ll get fired. She says- that’s not funny. He responds-he knows. He really wasn’t looking to make a true enemy out of his bosses imo. Edited August 9, 2018 by Erin9 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 9, 2018 Author Share August 9, 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: We don't know that. I doubt he would ever ask her to choose between him and her beloved KGB though. You're right, he actually might have asked for something more like what Philip and Elizabeth had. Him asking her if she's "finally" leaving Philip implies that Gregory's been maybe encouraging her for some time to leave Philip, which would presumably let them be a couple full-time while also working for the KGB, but Elizabeth just said no so they continued on seeing each other sporadically. Elizabeth made a lot of rules there too. She never agreed to being a full-time couple with him--it doesn't seem like he had much power to see her when he wanted either. In S1 she wants to use their professional situation to work out a relationship with Philip within limits she can control--either by declaring there's no romance but they'll still live together or by trying to get him back under the pretense of the kids needing him. She's no longer controlling the practical boundaries as much as she'd like. Of course, Philip doesn't ever demand she quit the KGB either, but she does offer to quit for him at one point and protects him in ways she never had to protect Gregory. 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: ??? Philip had more options there, Elizabeth wouldn't have to make a choice, and they were already pretending to be married, so "making it real" wasn't difficult. It was difficult enough that Elizabeth tried to avoid it. Of course it was much easier for them to live together since that was part of their cover, but whatever the circumstances they both made their relationship separate from the Cause and the Centre where Gregory's and Elizabeth's was part of it. Having Philip in the same house made things both easier and harder. 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: He stood up to her a very few times. You reminded me of Kimmie. So, Kimmie, Reagan's shooting "coup," (for once we do it my way) and Timochev, then the Gorbachev "coup." I'm not sure what standing up to her is defined by, exactly, but Philip and Elizabeth argue plenty of times, whether or not things work out the way Philip wants, but that's not always down to giving in to Elizabeth herself. This specific ep ends with her forcing herself to be vulnerable to him after he breaks up with her. (She'll be apologizing again in a few episodes--I think he's possibly the only person she apologizes to in the show.) When it comes to something that hits a button for him, he doesn't give in. He does plenty of things she doesn't like. Neither of them order the other to do anything as if they have the authority to do that. She and Gregory don't seem to have a relationship that's defined much by conflict either. He probably knows he's going against her wishes by telling Philip about them and he insists on dying on his own terms (though there I think Elizabeth didn't feel very strongly against that herself). 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: Philip also could have decided to go into hiding with the kids without the help of the US government. Pull an Irina. She got caught, but help from the US government was not guaranteed safety either. Elizabeth could go or not. Kill him or let him go. Tell or not tell. Philip obviously didn’t want to do that either though. To me it's not even just that he doesn't do it but that it just honestly doesn't seem to be shown as a thing at all. From a Doylist standpoint I think it would have been a dead end--it wouldn't be interesting to have a character who was always wanting to defect when the show needs him to keep spying. It would have been hard to make the character work over a long period of time like that, would have been less interesting and probably would have made him seem ridiculous. But whatever the reasons it just seemed to me that it wasn't a thing, so it was part of Philip's character that it wasn't a thing. Philip's struggles with his job were instead framed along the lines of whether or not they were doing any good. He was affected by arguments from Gabriel as well as Elizabeth. Could watch the news with personal interest. He could be paralleled with William who grumbled all the time but was "a patriot" always in the end and Elizabeth could see him who did value what they were doing. He could even be proactive into getting himself into his most difficult spots--marrying Martha and going after Kimmy were both his idea. And of course he could also wind up living a life where he didn't have to worry about those things and discover that he did want to do something that helped the world. He was right when he told Colonel What's-his-name that he wasn't afraid of a hard life for himself. Edited August 9, 2018 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Erin9 August 9, 2018 Share August 9, 2018 Oh- I agree. It’s not just that Philip didn’t defect, it’s that it was never a driving issue for him that we saw anyway. It wouldn’t have been interesting, I agree, but it simply wasn’t shown regardless. My main issue is the argument that Philip’s obsessive love for Elizabeth forced him to not defect- either via the US or simply disappearing. I just think IF he wanted it, the evidence shows me it was a choice he was capable of making. Yes- his big issue was how useful his work really was. So, from my POV, the thought of defecting or not wasn’t defining his life. I do see him as a lot like William too. Disillusioned as he was, he was still a patriot, and he was not turning. I think the show made those parallels on purpose. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 9, 2018 Share August 9, 2018 Philip knew the USSR was bogus, and certainly not worth giving up his life and happiness for. He did it for Elizabeth. He listened when people told him what it was really like back there (William, the Russian couple, the Africaans guy) and he knew the USSR had it's head up it's ass, and that he was murdering innocent people for their bad information, and that they LIED to him about what they would use the bioweapon for. He wasn't a fool or a fanatic. He may not have loved everything about his life in the USA (no one loves everything anywhere) but he certainly liked it a lot more than starving in a freezing cabin without electricity in a Gulag, where prisoners had no rights and in many cases had done nothing wrong, but the would die anyway, after suffering. He didn't want to go back there. He didn't want to be KGB. He didn't want his daughter involved. He did it all for one reason, Elizabeth. He sacrificed his peace of mind and conscious and soul because she would not quit the KGB, which was her one true commitment in life. So he will return to empty food shelves and nothing working, including electricity, and bitter cold for much of the year, short dark days, and whoopie! IF they live (doubtful) it was all for nothing anyway. I'm sure Elizabeth will be a joy to live with when the only thing that mattered in her life disappears. She flipped out when he mentioned defecting, so he dropped it. He wouldn't want to upset the little woman after all, and it was just his life and happiness and daughter he had to give up. Link to comment
sistermagpie August 9, 2018 Author Share August 9, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: Philip knew the USSR was bogus, and certainly not worth giving up his life and happiness for. He did it for Elizabeth. I think it's very clear on the show that he didn't think the USSR was bogus at all. He thought many of the things they were doing were bogus because they weren't really helping, but when, for instance, Oleg presented him with something he thought was the right thing to do for the USSR he did it despite being retired and despite it potentially threatening Elizabeth. Scenes where he's struggling with stuff are about that, not about him just not caring but Elizabeth is mad at him so he has to give in. For instance, when Gabriel talks about the USSR being caught defenseless etc. (If he felt this way I doubt he'd even bother objecting, much less be persuaded.) He was perfectly ready to upset the little woman when he thought it was the right thing to do. A lot of his major decisions (the ones that are probably the ones they consider so important in EST) directly contradict the idea that he just doesn't care about the USSR and is just keeping his wife happy with him. Especially the season 6 arc which seems to be the one most meant to define them as characters. Edited August 9, 2018 by sistermagpie 6 Link to comment
Umbelina August 10, 2018 Share August 10, 2018 Look at all his cases that "went wrong" and look at all the times he was lied to by his government. The wheat, the submarine part, their use of the deadly bio-weapon in Afghanistan, all of it. He knew about the food lines, and he knew that some had it better than other (just like in the USA) and he knew that they couldn't even make caps with threads that didn't fail, or grow better wheat, or bother to test out a stolen submarine part before negligently killing a bunch of kid sailors. He listened to Gabe talk about the USSR, to that Russian couple (Elizabeth didn't want to hear anything bad, but Philip listened.) He listened to William tell him the realities of "home." He listened to Oleg tell him how things really were back there. He knew he wasn't doing anything to help back home, he still had some of the indoctrination to hate the USA floating around, but he ALSO saw all the good here. Significant things, not just access to cool clothes and cars, but electricity, running hot water, stores full of food of all kinds, clothing not taken from dead people with the blood still on it. He wasn't rah rah USA, but he was, for most of the seasons, "hell, they are as bad as we are, but at least they have basic necessities here for people." He was long over it all. His rah rah times were almost always during false information, before he found out the truth, such as the wheat murders, and LIE that the USA was trying to poison people in the USSR with tainted wheat. At the very end, Philip finally full out defied his former and Elizabeth's current head boss at the KGB, the head of directorate S, and her handler in the USA, currently Granny, and went against the KGB in trying to foil the coup about Gorbachev modernizing the USSR. It won't matter in the long run, a coup still gets Gorbachev out in about 3 years, but at least the modernization kind of happen before the entire USSR collapses completely, which frankly, makes everything he and Elizabeth have had to do in the USA even more meaningless and unnecessary. I can't imagine either of them being OK with any of it, not when Elizabeth's eyes are finally forced open, and not when Philip realizes he's back, stuck in the USSR, only even that doesn't exist anymore. Just, and fairly soon, Stalin 2.0. Link to comment
sistermagpie August 10, 2018 Author Share August 10, 2018 14 hours ago, Umbelina said: He knew about the food lines, and he knew that some had it better than other (just like in the USA) and he knew that they couldn't even make caps with threads that didn't fail, or grow better wheat, or bother to test out a stolen submarine part before negligently killing a bunch of kid sailors. He listened to Gabe talk about the USSR, to that Russian couple (Elizabeth didn't want to hear anything bad, but Philip listened.) He listened to William tell him the realities of "home." He listened to Oleg tell him how things really were back there. These are reasons one might think he should no longer care about the USSR, but if he was just long over it all (as opposed to really struggling to believe he's helping in some way for a long time of it and then finally quitting) there's zero reason for him to, among other things, work with Oleg or defy anybody. 4 Link to comment
Erin9 August 10, 2018 Share August 10, 2018 I also think that Philip cares about HOME. Whatever name the place may be called. Whatever is going on- good or bad. Keeping the homeland safe. Seeing things better at home. It’s not just the current government or communism. If he thinks he can help somehow, he’s all in. As S6 made perfectly clear imo. Seeing as WWIII never broke out- that is a win imo. Fewer nukes- win. Their intelligence helped in other ways too at times, regardless of the ultimate fate of the Soviet Union. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina August 10, 2018 Share August 10, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, sistermagpie said: These are reasons one might think he should no longer care about the USSR, but if he was just long over it all (as opposed to really struggling to believe he's helping in some way for a long time of it and then finally quitting) there's zero reason for him to, among other things, work with Oleg or defy anybody. I'm not (at all) saying he didn't care about his homeland. I'm saying that most of his adult life was spent in the USA. His memories of the real USSR were so horrifying he's buried them. His teen years were spent isolated from the kind of life most citizens had in the USSR, and he knows that, because he's interested, and he listens with an open mind (something Elizabeth refuses to do.) Further, he knows his government lies all the time, and has lied to him, which resulted in several needless murders he committed, resulted in William's death, and Hans' death, and the wheat people's deaths, the sex, Martha's life ruined, Oleg in prison probably forever, dead sailors because the USSR couldn't even test the submarine part before installing it, and for WHAT? So the USSR could use a deadly toxin on Afgani's? To stop the invention of a wheat species that could feed his starving country? To preserve his country so it will collapse and disappear in a few years? Now they are ordering Elizabeth to be part of a coup, and give her a suicide pill? What I'm saying about Philip is that his eyes were wide open. He saw the issues in the USA, but he also saw that the USSR, if anything, gave it's people worse lives, that the dream of socialism was irreparably broken, that the reality would likely NEVER meet the ideals of a equal world, without war, without poverty, without hunger. In other words, both countries were bullshit, so why not stay where at least his children had food, clothes, decent housing, safe water, electricity, opportunities? 3 hours ago, Erin9 said: I also think that Philip cares about HOME. Whatever name the place may be called. Whatever is going on- good or bad. Keeping the homeland safe. Seeing things better at home. It’s not just the current government or communism. If he thinks he can help somehow, he’s all in. As S6 made perfectly clear imo. Seeing as WWIII never broke out- that is a win imo. Fewer nukes- win. Their intelligence helped in other ways too at times, regardless of the ultimate fate of the Soviet Union. Yeah, but as I said above, it takes a fanatic, one who is deeply brainwashed to accept those goals were really what were happening in the Soviet Union. He listened, he was used, he saw through to the reality, and tried to get Elizabeth to see it as well, but her mind was closed. Either way, it's all gone 3 years after they are forced back in the Soviet Union. ALL of it, all the murders, all the stress, his children left parentless, his enemies in the the USSR for helping to stop the Coup, ALL of it was for nothing. I still think Philip would adjust better than Elizabeth to that reality. He is stuck though, and can't really leave. The USA has his fingerprints, so even with plastic surgery he can't hope to ever return to a western country. Aside from that, his obsession with Elizabeth wouldn't allow that, unless she dies that is. So, he can either be as corrupt as everyone else that survived the end of the USSR, or he can end up like everyone else there (assuming he isn't killed.) Elizabeth though? The true believer watching her life's work disappear? I think she will take it much harder than Philip, she's not as adaptable, and most of all? She REALLY believed, forced herself to believe that all the sex, murder, giving up her kids was for a glorious cause. The death of that belief will be very hard for her. Can Philip get her through that? Maybe, but to me it's much more likely she becomes bitter, totally disillusioned, regretful, closed off more than ever, and very, very unhappy. Edited August 10, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie August 11, 2018 Author Share August 11, 2018 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: In other words, both countries were bullshit, so why not stay where at least his children had food, clothes, decent housing, safe water, electricity, opportunities? But this just doesn't seem to be the conclusion Philip's realism and open-minded listening brings him to at all. It doesn't match up with what's going on in nearly any of his scenes on the show that I remember. Practically every time I can think of when the show has a chance to dramatize this attitude they do something else instead so that's all I think I can go by. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina August 11, 2018 Share August 11, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: But this just doesn't seem to be the conclusion Philip's realism and open-minded listening brings him to at all. It doesn't match up with what's going on in nearly any of his scenes on the show that I remember. Practically every time I can think of when the show has a chance to dramatize this attitude they do something else instead so that's all I think I can go by. We watched a different show then. He actually SAID these things. He also showed great interest and tried to talk to Elizabeth a few times about what people who had BEEN in the USSR were saying about it. I feel he was very aware of all of that. Was it all in words? No. A lot was, but not all. His reaction to the over-reaction about Reagan's shooting for example. "Things aren't LIKE that here." His reaction after they used the bioweapon on Afgani's after he was promised that wouldn't happen. His reaction after he realized he'd murdered an innocent man who was just trying to make a sustainable wheat so the world would have more food and people wouldn't starve. His reaction when Oleg talked to him about what the hardliners were doing in the USSR, and his reaction when he found out Elizabeth was involved with that, spying on her, trying to get her to listen. His reaction that she was given a suicide pill. His endless reactions to how many times he was lied to. He could have done anything here, and he knew that, and wanted that more than anything for Henry. He was only stuck at the travel agency because, even though he technically wasn't doing missions anymore, he DID have to maintain Elizabeth's cover. He had choices, he had food, electricity, clothes to give his kids without them being covered in blood, enough heat, running water, and he, above all, understood what it was like without those things. What did he miss? The snow. Well, guess what? Move to Montana, or Maine, or Idaho or North Dakota, they even have icicles to pretend sword fight. No need to lie to everyone every moment of your life, no need to have sex with people you don't want to have sex with, no need to kill a damn soul. Aside from everything else, we KNOW what happens in the USSR. We even have a poster here who talked about smuggling whatever food they could smuggle into what was left, Russia, in a bra, that's how hungry he people were. That's what's coming for them, nothing working, even less food available, and NO choices about what they will do with their lives, and that's with the hopeful assumption that the head of Directorate S doesn't kill them or just throw them in Lubyanka. I think the show made it very clear that Philip saw the truth, and Elizabeth refused to do that. His talks with William, with the Russian couple, with Oleg telling him just what a mess it was there, with Gabe telling him the truth about killing or dying, with all of it. He paid attention. Elizabeth brushed it off with "We have problems of course." No lady, your problems here were not even close to the level of problems the majority of people in the USSR suffered. The USA started wars for territory, despicable stuff? Well guess what? So did the USSR, 3rd world countries were our battlefields, and we are still paying the price for that. It was both sides though, not just one, and Philip recognized that. ETA Philip often commented on "them" not knowing what it was like "here" also, to Elizabeth, in discussions with William, arguing with both Granny and Gabe also. It showed, me anyway, his awareness, and in some cases appreciation of the USA. He was also freely critical of the USSR, as much as he could be without offending Elizabeth enough to snitch on him again, or have Gabe or Claudia send him back there. ETA again Elizabeth TURNS HIM INTO THE KGB because "he likes it here too much" so obviously his feelings, at least to a highly trained KGB officer, were sympathetic to the USA before the show even began. Philip was always striving to figure things out, that's another reason he joined EST, pretending he was talking about hating his travel agent job, when he was really talking about the KGB. He was a thinker, not a true believer. What he left behind in the USSR was hell. Elizabeth left shame for her father's desertion, and brought with her a need to be the perfect soldier. They had vastly different motivations. Edited August 11, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie August 11, 2018 Author Share August 11, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Umbelina said: We watched a different show then. He actually SAID these things. He also showed great interest and tried to talk to Elizabeth a few times about what people who had BEEN in the USSR were saying about it. I feel he was very aware of all of that. I completely agree he was interested in these things, brought them up, listened when people talked about them and believed them. His eyes were open. I'm disagreeing that this led him to thinking both countries were bullshit so his priority was just staying in the US where it was better for him and the kids, and that he did things for the USSR because of Elizabeth. I think the show shows him becoming more and more aware and accepting of the reality of the world while also showing him fine with the idea of living in the USSR even with the kids and very open to the idea he can help. It doesn't even have to be Elizabeth making the case. It just seems like the last season in particular was specifically interested in bringing those things into focus. Elizabeth's chosen a life that's cut off from humanity; she's miserable and ultimately open to being drawn back to the parts of herself she's repressing via Erika and Philip. (I think she's kind of crying out for it at times, myself.) Philip's chosen a life cut off from this work and is glad he's no longer murdering and hurting people for it, but feels like he's stuck rather than living and is open to being drawn back by Oleg. He's in a far clearer place mentally than Elizabeth is and is making a considered decision to work with Oleg which seems to make him better. Stan doesn't see much difference in who runs the USSR but Philip does. He sees that this problem isn't about US vs. USSR. He does want Henry to have his life of opportunity in the US, but I think he also sees he's fundamentally not Henry. The showrunners knew this was the end game for Philip, that he'd join a dangerous plot against powerful people in order to protect a reform movement in the USSR, a reform movement Elizabeth would seem to be against and would be told by the Centre was a threat to the country she had to crush and I think they wrote to that ending. Philip had to be like Oleg who saw the corruption and the bullshit but couldn't fully retreat into cynicism or straight self-preservation. The choices he makes don't reflect obsessive love for Elizabeth as much of a motivation either. He obviously wants to save her from the death spiral she's in, but while he'd die for her, he explicitly refuses to let her drag him into that death spiral with her. There's at least three ways he could have gone with regards to Oleg's revelations and he chose the one that least prioritized Elizabeth. She was right to recognize he protected Oleg and his plot from her. Edited August 11, 2018 by sistermagpie 3 Link to comment
Erin9 August 11, 2018 Share August 11, 2018 (edited) 55 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I completely agree he was interested in these things, brought them up, listened when people talked about them and believed them. His eyes were open. I'm disagreeing that this led him to thinking both countries were bullshit so his priority was just staying in the US where it was better for him and the kids, and that he did things for the USSR because of Elizabeth. I think the show shows him becoming more and more aware and accepting of the reality of the world while also showing him fine with the idea of living in the USSR even with the kids and very open to the idea he can help. It doesn't even have to be Elizabeth making the case. It just seems like the last season in particular was specifically interested in bringing those things into focus. Elizabeth's chosen a life that's cut off from humanity; she's miserable and ultimately open to being drawn back to the parts of herself she's repressing via Erika and Philip. (I think she's kind of crying out for it at times, myself.) Philip's chosen a life cut off from this work and is glad he's no longer murdering and hurting people for it, but feels like he's stuck rather than living and is open to being drawn back by Oleg. He's in a far clearer place mentally than Elizabeth is and is making a considered decision to work with Oleg which seems to make him better. Stan doesn't see much difference in who runs the USSR but Philip does. He sees that this problem isn't about US vs. USSR. He does want Henry to have his life of opportunity in the US, but I think he's fundamentally not Henry. The showrunners knew this was the end game for Philip, that he'd join a dangerous plot against powerful people in order to protect a reform movement in the USSR, a reform movement Elizabeth would seem to be against and would be told by the Centre was a threat to the country she had to crush and I think they wrote to that ending. Philip had to be like Oleg who saw the corruption and the bullshit but couldn't fully retreat into cynicism or straight self-preservation. The choices he makes don't reflect obsessive love for Elizabeth as much of a motivation either. He obviously wants to save her from the death spiral she's in, but while he'd die for her, he explicitly refuses to let her drag him into that death spiral with her. There's at least three ways he could have gone with regards to Oleg's revelations and he chose the one that least prioritized Elizabeth. She was right to recognize he protected Oleg and his plot from her. Exactly. You summed it up perfectly. It’s worth noting that when Arkady is persuading Oleg to persuade Philip to spy, he explicitly states Philip may need to kill Elizabeth. Now- Oleg naturally doesn’t frame his argument to Philip in this manner, but Philip isn’t stupid. He’s well aware that while he and Oleg could die or be put in prison for their role in trying/failing to stop the coup, should things go in the way they hope- ELIZABETH could be killed or put in prison by their side of the coup stoppers for treason. Elizabeth and Claudia reference as much in the end too by stating the trouble Claudia and the others are in. Elizabeth may not have been aware of everything going on, but that certainly would not have been an excuse. Now- Philip is obviously hoping it doesn’t come to that. But he is willing to roll the dice for what he believes in. And Elizabeth could wind up on the wrong side of things- and he’d have helped to facilitate it- if she doesn’t turn. That is one of many reasons in my view Philip is not making decisions based on some obsessive love for Elizabeth. And frankly- if I’m to believe Philip is just dying to defect, then I practically have to buy Oleg is too. They both see things in a very similar manner. But I don’t buy it. They want to make things better at home- not hand over vital national security information and get their own killed. I realize there is a difference between Philip having a family and built a life in the US, but the 2 men’s issues are remarkably similar. And both opted to risk it all and return to spying FOR their country. Sounds like a couple of wannabe defectors to me.....only not. Edited August 11, 2018 by Erin9 2 Link to comment
Umbelina August 11, 2018 Share August 11, 2018 (edited) Oleg never discussed defecting. Philip did, repeatedly. They are not the same person. The selling point for Philip on all of this was nuclear disarmament. That was for the world, for the well being of all, not for the USSR. It was in no way a choice BETWEEN the USA and the USSR, it was a choice for both. So how you can say "he did it for his country" is honestly beyond me. He did it because it was the right thing to do. Just as he got Martha out, in spite of KGB wishes, just as he refused to let Kimmie be kidnapped by the KGB and held hostage. Philip finally found his balls with Elizabeth in the final season. Twice. Woo. ETA Philip did those things because morally they were his lines in the sand. I just wish he'd bothered to stand up for his own well being, as much as he did for Martha's, for Kimmie's, and for the world's. Philip was deeply honorable, and he didn't buy the KGB bullshit, or the USSR's or the USA's. He allowed it as long as he was the one suffering, but protected others at critical times. Edited August 11, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
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