sistermagpie July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 A thread to talk about individual episodes in re-watch where, unlike the episode threads, you can put them in the context of the whole show and include spoilers for future episodes. 5 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 6, 2018 Author Share July 6, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: Fabulous title Hee! I rejected several before thinking of it! So, having re-watched the Pilot I had some general thoughts this time around. The tone, as has been noted, is very different in that there’s a real sense of the war starting—as the Deputy AG says, “Ladies and gentlemen, we are at war.” This right after Elizabeth’s (unbelievable) meeting with Zhukov here he warns her that things are about to get hot. Basically Stan and Elizabeth get the exact same speech about how the enemy is tough but they must win. But it's less giving a feeling about the dread of war than a "gentlemen, start your engines!" feel. It seems like this is going to be fun. At the FBI, wow, Amador really is a dork. He’s practically comic relief at times. In the big scene where Stan gives his thoughts on Timoshev, Amador starts the scene by talking about piroshki (which he can barely remember the name of) and ends it with pressing Stan for details about being with the white power group like a goofy sidekick. He’s never quite following the convo or reading the room, assuming his superiors are making a mistake by talking to Stan at all and being more interested in Stan’s past exploits than the case in front of them. Even Stan’s like, “So, back to Timoshev...” after Amador’s jokes. Philip's already laying the groundwork for a romance with Martha. After he jokingly asks her if she got a look inside the vault and she reminds him he knows she's not allowed in there he says he knows and "he's sorry," like he's sorry because he does know and more importantly he's sorry that she's not given the trust by her superiors to get in there. Then he holds her gaze for just a bit. That said, he just pulls the wig out of a bag in the bathroom, it seems, before he goes in. They really did up their disguise game later in the show. The idea of actors playing subtext came up recently and we’ve often talked about how Elizabeth gets a lot of detailed backstory to inform her actions while Philip, it turns out, really never ends up getting a lot of specifics. I was thinking about that watching the Pilot because KR and MR both do a fantastic job with the two sides of the coin. KR has very specific subtext to play throughout. Elizabeth would know even in the first scene that the man she’s hunting is the man who raped her. But she's not looking for revenge. She’s clearly hoping to hand him off without ever having to have any personal interaction with him whatsoever. On first watch it seems like she’s simply an agent who believes the mission comes first and that’s why they shouldn’t detour to the hospital and she is that in general, but she also has very good reason for wanting to get rid of this man as quickly and cleanly as possible. It’s still hard to nail down exactly what her relationship to Philip has been thusfar, but obviously Timoshev is informing a lot of her emotions there too. The ice cream scene overtly parallels the flashback to the rape with Philip playfully giving the kids tips and reminding them of their “training” and that makes his refusal to stop teasing her more stressful. Of course his kissing her in the kitchen later is more of the same, although she doesn't seem surprised by the initial contact. I'm still not sure what to make of his behavior. It's an obvious change from the flashback where he backs off so quickly, though in both scenes he references them being married. In their first fight about defection Elizabeth, surprisingly, isn’t as horrified by the idea as you’d think. She asks Philip questions about what his plan is, reminds him they’d get killed. She’s not tempted by the idea, but it’s in the later scene where she takes a much stronger, angrier stance. The later scene is mostly about Timoshev and defection, but Elizabeth’s line “So you’re leaving me” and her having taken the distributor cap in case Philip tried to do just that also hit a subtle note of co-dependence—or maybe just inter-dependence--on her side too. That later scene is the one where Timoshev is standing there. I think that definitely puts more power behind her attitude. Timoshev here is everything she is defining herself against—*she’s* not a traitor, even after she was assaulted by her superior officer. Timoshev, of course, is because he was never deserving of his position. Back then she doubled down on her loyalty to power through the trauma and she’s taking strength from that now. It’s Timoshev who refers to and reveals their past, maybe hoping it’ll keep Elizabeth, who’s just picked up the tire iron, from killing him. I had always thought of this moment when she decides not to kill him in terms of her realizing that killing him isn’t going to make her feel satisfied, especially since Philip seems to have betrayed her as well in wanting to take Timoshev to Stan. Iow, she feels abandoned and hopeless so she might as well give up. But watching it again I thought another thing going on is that by revealing what happened Timoshev violates her again by telling Philip what happened. This was brought up recently on the boards, I remember, how this is the first time Elizabeth feels that Philip sees the real, vulnerable person she is. In telling Philip about the assault Timoshev takes away her control and dignity again and maybe also turns her strong, patriotic stance into what she hopes it isn’t—a girl’s anger at the man who hurt her. Now she’s got two men looking at her and knowing how she was humiliated and although she tries to maintain a shred of dignity by coldly telling Philip to “take him to the Americans” and “do what you want with him” she just wants to get out of there. And then Philip changes everything. On his side, MR has no real backstory to work with besides Philip's memories of meeting Elizabeth for the first time. That’s something, but for the most part he’s having to find his own reasons for why Philip is doing everything that he’s doing. His motivations do seem to become more focused as the ep moves on. With Stan across the street and Robert dead, he has concrete reasons to feel the family is in danger. In her unlikely (impossible) meeting with Zhukov Elizabeth describes her earlier doubts about Philip (that she reported about) as a “phase in a person’s life” and it does seem like after he and Elizabeth get together Philip gets more focused. He starts methodically going after threats to the family—first he beats up Errol from the mall and then he’s waiting in the garage for Stan. He’s chosen to stay and is ready to defend the family from that position. I'm tempted to see a parallel here to Philip in S6 who was "stuck" until Oleg helped put things into focus again and he knew what to do. Just because of his ideas about money and a life where they enjoy it--a life that's totally easy to throw away by killing Timoshev, it turns out. Speaking of that garage scene with Timoshev, cars come up a lot throughout the ep. There’s a plot reason for that because the Jennings used their own car to grab Timoshev, but that’s also tied to a cliché male interest in cars and cars as a symbol of affluence and power (they'll be used this way throughout the show). Philip trades the Oldsmobile for a sexier car he knows Henry will like. Henry asks if they can paint a racing stripe on the Oldsmobile (Mom wouldn’t like it--actually he literally says that Mom doesn't like "new things" meaning capitalist decadence and that sort of echoes the way the FBI will use the term "new" as a euphemism for black when talking to Aderholdt). When Stan ambles over to check out Philip’s car for stray evidence he uses jumper cables as an excuse and the whole tense moment is punctuated by suburban dad car talk. Throughout the show Paige is the character whose clothing both changes the most and says the most about her—which makes sense because as a teen girl she’d be most likely to change clothes and styles. Paige chooses to go to the mall in an outfit that’s completely OOC for her. She looks absolutely like a 13 year old girl who’s experimenting with a look some girl at school probably pulls off, but Paige herself never once looks totally comfortable in it. Another girl would have enjoyed wearing the outfit, been amused by Dad’s discomfort, been pleased to be seen at the mall in it etc. With Paige the outfit always seems to be wearing her instead of the other way around. This is not, of course, meant to suggest that Paige is “asking for” Errol’s behavior, just in case that wasn’t clear. More than I just think Paige wished she was wearing something else for that encounter if only so she would have felt more comfortable when things got weird. She does not take her jacket off when they go to the Beeman’s where Paige has what seems to be a much more enjoyable encounter with Matthew (one she doesn't want to push by taking off the jacket). He just looks at her and she smiles, presumably imagining possibilities there that are more her speed (Matthew’s a pretty safe crush at 16). In general Paige is very much coded in the pilot as a very typical 13-year-old with typical 13-year-old interests: she goes to the mall, tries a new style, crushes on the boy next door, is embarrassed by her father. (She also at one point interrupts Elizabeth cleaning the trunk to ask to go to the drugstore which made me wonder if there was a deleted scene about Paige getting her period, actually--underscoring not for the first time that Paige's adolescence is one of the things starting the story here.) This isn’t in conflict with the Paige we get later, though, because she already looks like she’s interested in this stuff because that’s what’s expected of her at 13, if that makes sense. This is in contrast to Henry who's genuinely enthusiastic about everything he's interested in. (Stan does immediately zero in on Henry to charm--oh, and he and Sandra are getting along well in this ep where Stan seems pretty well-adjusted and hearty.) She's very clearly a girl who hasn't found who she is yet. I guess the best we can say at the end is that she knows who she isn't and that's a start! Also huge difference between her and 13 year old Henry who's not like this at all. Even making allowances for actor being 15 by the time Henry's 13 he's written as more at home with himself. Paige's interest in Matthew does seem genuine and that seemed significant to me given how I wound up feeling like Paige’s biggest motivation throughout the series was a search for intimacy and love like her parents have. It seems fitting that she spends S1 crushing on Matthew. Iow, the desire for love is first and is only later replaced with a desire to change the world at the same time she starts to take a darker view of her parents’ marriage. Anyway, like I said I found the mall outfit to be a really bold—and adorable—choice for a character who’s clothes are going to continue to signal who’s she’s trying to be or thinks she is throughout the series. Oh, and speaking of clothing, after they get rid of Timoshev’s body Philip and Elizabeth have an early breakfast with the kids (as per TV they have tons of food the way people rarely do IRL). At the table Philip and Elizabeth are, like, literally dressed as a sunny sky. Philip’s wearing a sky-blue tee-shirt and Elizabeth is wearing a fruity orange shirt that’s like no color she ever wears at any other time. It really stood out and it reflects her mood in the scene. Both their moods, really. It's morning again in America! Edited July 6, 2018 by sistermagpie 5 Link to comment
Umbelina July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 (edited) Wow, you covered so much! The only additions I can think of are the title song, since penis ruled this episode, and was at the root of most of the action. Timochev used his raping Elizabeth, the guy menacing Paige was obviously using his on his underage companion, and trying to lure Paige to his as well. Philip's male rage at both of the women in his life's troubles with TUSK, resulting in one death, and one severe beating with promise of death if he uses his TUSK on any more young girls. Oh! And a BBQ fork to his TUSK as well. Also...sigh, the pace. This show was SO good at pace! Heart pounding or tension raising pace, even when on a later episode all that was involved was looking out a curtain! Edited July 6, 2018 by Umbelina 2 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, sistermagpie said: (She also at one point interrupts Elizabeth cleaning the trunk to ask to go to the drugstore which made me wonder if there was a deleted scene about Paige getting her period, actually--underscoring not for the first time that Paige's adolescence is one of the things starting the story here. There is a deleted scene on the DVD sort of like this. Elizabeth and Paige get in the car to go to the drugstore, and Elizabeth asks her what she thinks of the new boy who moved in. Paige says Matthew is 15 and would never like her, since even boys her age don't like her. Elizabeth says something like she's sure that isn't true, and launches into a speech about how she's sure Paige and Henry are going to be able to handle anything because she's raising them to be strong, tough and confident, and Paige responds that she isn't any of those things. So yeah, Paige's adolescence and also Elizabeth's desire to toughen her up were part of the focus from the beginning. Edited July 6, 2018 by Domestic Assassin 3 Link to comment
Plums July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 The Pilot is very interesting to revisit in order to see what was substantially changed and what stayed consistent. Superficially, the wig game is hilarious to me in season 1. It's interesting to me that it isn't a detail that was ironed out between when the pilot was filmed and the rest of season 1. It's consistently ridiculous the whole time. I mean, Elizabeth is having sex in that trashy disguise with bleach blonde wig in the first scene in the pilot, and it's just something she grabs off her head in the car afterwards like a hat, long hair tumbling down loose immediately. How can anyone have sex in such a precarious disguise!? Obviously the Clark wig is the same way at first for Philip. I think the writers got justifiably ribbed over how unrealistic wearing wigs like that when there's a strong chance you're engaged in activities where they could easily come off would be, so they changed it to the million pins plus adhesive goo after s1 (And then the first disguised scene in the second season specifically shows a wig getting torn off Philip only after strenuous effort was applied, lol) I agree that the meeting with Zhukov was totally impossible given what was subsequently established about how espionage functioned in this universe. I know it's been discussed before, but one of the ways I feel the show was probably retooled between the pilot and the rest of season 1 is that they discovered that the entire conceit of the character of Zhukov just didn't work. Maybe they realized the same about Amador and knew they would get rid of him halfway through too. They're both introduced as fairly major side characters in the pilot but then pretty much sidelined until they're killed and spark vengeful rages in the respective protagonist they're hamfistedly tied to via flashbacks. I definitely feel like there are some relics of characterization in the pilot that maybe linger a bit in early season 1, but are largely abandoned in the rest of the series. Specifically with Philip. The way he's pushy and possessive with Elizabeth, insisting she's his wife and broodingly listening to the tape of her honeytrapping the fed. We've fanwanked it to be about him getting lost in the character, but I really think they just didn't have the idea of who Philip would ultimately be at that point. Yeah, I mean I guess you could say since he knew his feelings were one-sided, all this stuff bothers him more because he's much more insecure about her, but eeeeeehhhhhhhh. I don't really buy it. Just like I don't really buy that Elizabeth would argue over the practicalities of defecting with him, such as how they would obviously get caught, or that he would make the decision unilaterally and try to force her to go with him in the first place. If he was that worried about the FBI knowing about them due to Stan's presence, they didn't establish it well enough. I feel like the much more believable, better illustration of their pre-Timoshev, marriage-becoming-real dynamic comes from that flashback to 1967 in 2x03, when Elizabeth decided to have kids, and it was implied to be the first time they had sex. They had a smooth, established working partnership, and he didn't have any illusions about how she really felt about him or what they were and was very respectful of her even if you could tell he wasn't happy about this happening given their unequal emotional circumstances. 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 6, 2018 Author Share July 6, 2018 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: Wow, you covered so much! I did! Although I did forget one thing-hockey. Philip's first scene he's talking about hockey. Henry's first scene he's talking about hockey. (They're both referring to the same game that's on the night Timoshev is snatched.) It seemed significant just how consistent that thread was throughout the series. There's even a point where Gabriel asks about it and Philip says Henry's more into baseball these days--which seems like Philip kind of pushing back on Gabriel by substituting the American pastime for the Russian one. Philip and Henry always had these little parallels to each other and it really does seem like Henry being not only so focused on hockey but playing it in that last scene is a subtle nod to how they'll always have these people as parents, if that makes sense. Like you don't realize the many ways you were shaped by your parents. 13 hours ago, Umbelina said: The only additions I can think of are the title song, since penis ruled this episode, and was at the root of most of the action. Timochev used his raping Elizabeth, the guy menacing Paige was obviously using his on his underage companion, and trying to lure Paige to his as well. Philip's male rage at both of the women in his life's troubles with TUSK, resulting in one death, and one severe beating with promise of death if he uses his TUSK on any more young girls. Oh! And a BBQ fork to his TUSK as well. Also...sigh, the pace. This show was SO good at pace! Heart pounding or tension raising pace, even when on a later episode all that was involved was looking out a curtain! Oh yeah, definitely on both of this. And I think that also relates to what Plums said below about some of the ways the characterization was later adjusted. When Elizabeth leaves the meeting Timoshev says "You were just a child," which seems out of left field and almost seems to be a reference to him knowing about the rape. It stuck out to me because it seemed like it was setting up all these young girls being preyed on by men and that seemed a little insulting to Elizabeth, as if she was the "child" because she was a girl. I don't know, it was just weird. Philip being pushy put him more in that group in this ep. The whole war aspect is thrilling too before it seems like absolutely everyone decides that it's pointless and they're going through the motions for no reason. I think part of it is the way the FBI and the Rezidentura just disappear. Although the Rezidentura doesn't appear at all here, there's still the sense of the Centre watching--that's why Zhukov is allegedly there. It's a far cry from the Centre who sets up the whole 2nd gen Illegals plot and then just seems to lose interest in it and let Philip retire while they were at it. 6 hours ago, Domestic Assassin said: There is a deleted scene on the DVD sort of like this. Elizabeth and Paige get in the car to go to the drugstore, and Elizabeth asks her what she thinks of the new boy who moved in. Paige says Matthew is 15 and would never like her, since even boys her age don't like her. Elizabeth says something like she's sure that isn't true, and launches into a speech about how she's sure Paige and Henry are going to be able to handle anything because she's raising them to be strong, tough and confident, and Paige responds that she isn't any of those things. So yeah, Paige's adolescence and also Elizabeth's desire to toughen her up were part of the focus from the beginning. I think I'd heard about that scene once--thanks! They clearly did cast Holly Taylor to be the opposite of Kerri Russell in terms of her whole steely affect in Elizabeth's character. She thinks she can just bark Paige into being like her and she really can't. 5 hours ago, Plums said: The Pilot is very interesting to revisit in order to see what was substantially changed and what stayed consistent. Superficially, the wig game is hilarious to me in season 1. It's interesting to me that it isn't a detail that was ironed out between when the pilot was filmed and the rest of season 1. I love how they basically said they built a whole "wig arc" into season 2 because so many people pointed out how these people really can't just be popping a wig on like a baseball cap in these dangerous situations. Even if they weren't having sex (think that guy isn't maybe going to reach down and pull her hair in the first scene?) it's still too precarious. Especially with a mane of hair underneath. 5 hours ago, Plums said: I definitely feel like there are some relics of characterization in the pilot that maybe linger a bit in early season 1, but are largely abandoned in the rest of the series. Specifically with Philip. The way he's pushy and possessive with Elizabeth, insisting she's his wife and broodingly listening to the tape of her honeytrapping the fed. Yes, totally agreed. I think Umbelina's right about the Pilot having a lot of themes of male predators going after young female prey and Philip is more like that in the pilot than he is anywhere else. He seems much more like himself in the flashback at the end where even his delivery of "maybe you just don't find me attractive" doesn't sound so passive-aggressive as it could. It's nice that they almost seemed to just correct this right away with that conflict over the guy who hurts Elizabeth. 5 hours ago, Plums said: They had a smooth, established working partnership, and he didn't have any illusions about how she really felt about him or what they were and was very respectful of her even if you could tell he wasn't happy about this happening given their unequal emotional circumstances. Absolutely. It's just really hard to find a place for that Philip in anything else we see--including the scene in the car, which also works much better if this isn't a woman he feels comfortable sidling up behind and nuzzling even after she tells him to stop. 1 Link to comment
Erin9 July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 I love this thread title! The Tusk music was amazing. It is still one of the best songs they ever used. It set the tone perfectly. I think Stan had the biggest shift character wise. He came across as happily married, solid relationship with his son, well adjusted, normal. I might even go so far to say heroic. He had no issues beyond a little paranoia. That all drastically shifted. I think we saw cracks by episode 2. Which was good. He needed to be human and flawed like everyone else. I don’t think the defection argument fully fits either Philip or Elizabeth based on the entirety of the series. I think they were trying to establish the dynamic that Philip puts family/people first and Elizabeth puts mission/country first. They also wanted to establish that he “likes” America. They wanted to show that Stan moving in scared and rattled them. And they needed something to happen to shift their relationship into something real. But- this doesn’t really fully fit them imo. I’m also not sold on Timoshev being their first, last and only chance to defect. I’ll go with the idea they weren’t thinking clearly. That makes more sense imo. And-IA- Philip’s possessiveness and jealousy were not major characteristics of his. Amador was a poorly written character from day 1. It’s amazing how badly he was written. I did like all the fallout from his death. I wouldn’t have changed it. They just should have established more of a relationship with Stan first. And made him less of a jerk. Even how he died was really due to him being possessive, stalkerish and a man who abused his authority. I don’t think Elizabeth was ever as remote with her kids as she was in the pilot either. Until S6 with Henry. They loosened her up a bit. How they handled wigs, cars, disguises in general changed a lot after S1. I doubt Charles would have seen the real Philip if we’d met him later. I liked that they kept little things like Philip liking country music throughout the show. I think Paige and Henry came across like normal kids in the pilot. Henry, for the most part, always did. Paige, by around S2, seemed a bit more interested in her parents than most kids would be. The snark was any teen though. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 16, 2018 Author Share July 16, 2018 (edited) Just re-watched The Clock and here are some thoughts I had... They really do seem to push the idea of Amador not being a very good agent and it's very strange that they also make this point about him being a minority. I don't think the show's pushing any sort of anti-affirmative action agenda but maybe they were going for some storyline where Amador really looked up to Stan or something? In the scene where Stan goes into the stereo store Amador says they were supposed to stay on her. So either we have Stan going rogue for the first time, following an instinct and getting rewarded for it. Or else Amador is not having good instincts there in knowing that obviously they need to check out the stereo store. This obviously makes it hard to buy when they later want them to be friends via flashback so Stan can feel bad. Honestly, they should have just leaned into this and had Stan feel guilty in a paternal way because he saw that Chris wanted to be more like him. There's even a moment where Gaad asks Chris if they're clear (from the van) and he says, "I think so." Gaad says, "Come on, Chris"--admonishing him for not being dependable enough in the scene. He's like a parallel to Paige in S6 as a spy! He also has a moment in the stereo store where he tries to read the cavaiar can and I guess he could be intentionally faking his inability to read it but it doesn't seem that way, particularly given his earlier talk about the meat pies. There's more of a parallel set up between the KGB and the FBI that I really like but the differences are cool too. Stan gets a big phone call from the Chief of Staff (for a second he convinces everyone it was the president) for getting Nina onboard while Philip and Elizabeth have no idea that there's a secret celebration going on at the Rez over their successful mission. They don't get any feedback and just have to buck each other up, which they do. This ep sets up a nice parallel between Viola and Nina with both sides basically getting a bug in the enemy HQ in the same ep--both women will also turn in the same ep, iirc. I also like how genuinely important the Star Wars program seems when the Russians hear about it. The show chooses to not jump back in on the romance in this ep. For most of it Elizabeth and Philip are just acting like partners. I think the change comes after Philip nearly smothers Grayson and Elizabeth squeezes his hand--that immediately made me think of her reactions after the Harvest op where she sees how terrible Philip feels at doing these things but knows he's doing them because he cares, and I think that makes a big impression on her. It's really nice, though, because you see how deep their relationship already is, how their bond as partners and friends and parents is so deep, so the romance really is a new, softer thing laid on top of it. Philip then makes a nice treat for Elizabeth with the caviar--a parallel to Stan sharing it with him earlier. So right there we've got Stan stealing some expensive caviar and not thinking to share it as a romantic treat with his wife, like Philip does, but instead with his new neighbor. Looking back now Philip seems very wary about Stan, but also a bit like a lonely girl who doesn't even know how to react to the idea that someone is trying to ask her out--or in this case, be friends. I think he's doing his suburban dad banter automatically but Stan pushing it is a new thing. He's clearly (imo) not allowing himself to enjoy the idea yet, but he does sense something going on here. You know what the show really could have used was a scene of Stan and Philip having fun together. I know they enjoy racketball etc. but it would really have helped if they let them experience something funny together. Like an actual laugh. Their conversation about Falls Church being a nice place to live is so fraught with tension on Philip's side it's hilarious. It's like he thinks everything Stan says is a code. (LOL--like that great line later on when Stan points out that his grandmother had the same clock as hangs in the travel agency office.) Btw, when Stan comes home Sandra and Matthew aren't there but Sandra's note specifically says they'll be back very soon so Stan's decision to wander over the Jennings and ask Philip about the caviar isn't about being neglected or anything. It's more like he just feels more comfortable with a guy. Although I think it's also very possible that he's still intrigued by Philip and hasn't completely put away his suspicions. Like he might feel stupid about the car but something does still feel off about the guy. In any event it obviously says something that Stan steals caviar that he shares with Philip while Philip shares it with his wife when both men are reconnecting with their wives in new ways--or are supposed to be. Philip and Elizabeth work really well together in the ep--when Philip's freaking out about the mission Elizabeth's coldly saying it's their job and they wouldn't ask if it wasn't important. Only when it's over does Elizabeth confess her fears and agree that the Centre shouldn't ask these things of them--and then Philip says it's done, they were successful and it must have been important. And Keri Russell plays it like she's hanging on his every word because she trusts him very much. Elizabeth really takes a nosedive in the years between S6 and 7. Another little parallel to S6--Elizabeth playing fake nurse. Though here she's withholding an anecdote until the right moment and in S6 she's witholding death. This is also Annelise's big episode and as Philip describes her, she's half off her rocker. She calls Philip with an emergency signal just to have a dramatic scene and even, wonderfully, walks out of the car by herself at the end of it, leaving Scott/Philip to wonder how the hell she's even planning to get home. She tells him to tell her they'll run away together even if it's not true and earlier claims to be in love with Scott like she hasn't been before. When they meet later in S3 she says she's working things out with her husband and many people took that as true, but I think she's always living some drama that isn't necessarily real. That's why she of course decides she's in love with Yousef in ways she never has been before. I always felt like this ep seemed to set up Annelise as an important, sexy source so it was nice how she wound up being less important and it was Martha who got the big story. You would never think from watching the first 2 eps that it would be Annelise who people wouldn't remember when she finally turned up again! Also I have to say that Philip looks so STRANGE in his Scott disguise. He's basically himself but with these ice blue contacts that make him look like an alien. Very disconcerting. Viola remains the best example of a Christian (that is, the Christian that this particular woman would be) the show ever had, imo. She cracks in the face of Philip literally smothering her child, but he knows things are bad when she says she knows the devil and that she's only listening to God, who will protect her. This is a woman who could stand up to Elizabeth no problem if it was only herself who was in danger. (Also I always find it funny that Viola claims people don't really look at her in the house because she's just a servant etc. yet every time we see the poor woman trying to do something with the clock Mrs. Weinberger comes in breathlessly looking for her--and noticing that she looks tired etc.) Her belief in God is completely in tune with her sense of right and wrong and she's been tested before, I think that's clear. The mission makes both Jennings want to cling to their own kids, but it's clear they have very normal routines with them already. Paige here is still the very normal teenage girl she was in the pilot. When her mother offers to take her shopping she assumes it's just to get her a bra that isn't red and explains to her that teenagers don't go shopping with their mom--not exactly true, but Paige is seeing herself as too independent and wanting to do things herself. It's Elizabeth who's trying to hold on here, finally winning her over with a late night ear piercing (which she specifically compares to going to the mall with her friends to do it). The last scenes of the Jennings with their kids actually mirror their whole philosophy as parents. Philip sits beside Henry and watching over him while letting him sleep. Elizabeth wakes Paige up, tempts her with something she wants, tells a story about herself and her mother, puts her in a situation where she'll obviously look bad if she says no and makes her bleed a little. Paige is marked--very intentionally so; Henry is not only not marked, he's unaware. Elizabeth also in this ep starts carrying a gun and tells Philip she'd rather die than be put in jail and threatened to get her to talk. She starts thinking of how the kids will fare without them and seems to want to pierce Paige's ears in case she doesn't live to see her daughter turn 15 (oh, what a birthday that will be!). She wants Paige toughened up so she can survive on her own. We'll later see that Elizabeth's own mother did this to her when she was sick--though eventually she would just end up sending Elizabeth away without dying. Philip seems more wanting to live day to day and keep them protected as long as possible. They'll end the series the same way, with Elizabeth telling Claudia she can "finish" with Paige if something happens to her while Philip just enjoys Henry's life at school. But in the end it's Philip who knows Henry's grown beyond needing their protection so much he needs to be brought to Russia and Elizabeth plans to take Paige with her. Obviously there were practical reasons for that since Paige knew the truth, but Paige is treated--and behaves--like a dependent nearly up until the end. The subject of Paige and sex is interesting this early too, because Elizabeth is disturbed by her wearing a red bra, which Paige says is fine since she's 13. She explains to Elizabeth that people are "freer" now than they were when she was young, which is silly in a typically 80s teen way because Elizabeth is a baby boomer. She might have been wearing no bra at all, had she been an actual American. But it's almost like Paige instinctively talks to her as if she's an immigrant mom from a more conservative country. More importantly, though, I think it's fitting that romance is still the first thing we see associated with Paige. Not in a blatant way--she's not boy-crazy or trying to be really sexy. But this is the thing she's experimenting with. It's the second ep where her clothes are remarked on as showing us who she's trying to be--more of a grown-up woman. Symbolically the red bra is replaced by the drop of blood on the sheets from the ear piercing--Elizabeth offers a more age-appropriate initiation ritual. At this point Paige possibly isn't looking to her parents as role models for romance as a couple. I think that, too, might be something that comes out more when they're separated and she considers them as having to want to be together. I mean, I think unconsciously she always sees them as a unit because they are, but they don't become a couple until the show starts and Paige might not only be just reaching the age where she's interested in that but also be picking up on it on some level. (Though she does see her father teasing her mother in the Pilot.) Both parents are disturbed by dangers to Paige via sexuality. For Philip it was just about predators where as Elizabeth is maybe uncomfortable with Paige herself throwing herself into that area too quickly. That seems important because although Elizabeth is in some ways very open about sex, she's also got a very clear protective streak about it when it comes to Paige--lying to her about honeytrapping etc. And Paige herself in S1 is still very much a regular teenager whose main interest appears to be growing up in an adolescent world--embarrassed at the idea of being friends with her mom. It should be noted that neither parent ever suggests to Paige that she'd be "asking for it" based on her clothes--good on them for that. Perhaps as predators themselves they know how predators hunt. This is also the ep where Elizabeth compares the two kids in a way that I think is proved absolutely correct. She says she thinks Henry would adapt if something happened to them while Paige is "fragile, somehow." The showrunners were fond of saying Paige was stronger than people thought or whatever, but she really does seem incredibly fragile--like blown glass. Nothing rolls off her back. This early she seems to be tentatively trying to settle into the role of every day teenager. It's self-righteousness that gives her grounding. She's not shattered by the end of the series or anything and we certainly can't know how Henry will react to the sudden blow he gets. But throughout the series Henry is always portrayed as totally adaptable while Paige is fragile. ETA: Forgot how much I loved this small moment, but I love when Philip is listening to the bug and hears voices for the first time, so he knows Viola put the clock back and they can administer the antitode. MR just does this great relief take, it's like it hits him violently how relieved he is and it looks totally natural. Edited July 18, 2018 by sistermagpie 2 Link to comment
Dev F July 18, 2018 Share July 18, 2018 (edited) On 7/5/2018 at 10:58 PM, sistermagpie said: At the FBI, wow, Amador really is a dork. He’s practically comic relief at times. In the big scene where Stan gives his thoughts on Timoshev, Amador starts the scene by talking about piroshki (which he can barely remember the name of) and ends it with pressing Stan for details about being with the white power group like a goofy sidekick. He’s never quite following the convo or reading the room, assuming his superiors are making a mistake by talking to Stan at all and being more interested in Stan’s past exploits than the case in front of them. Even Stan’s like, “So, back to Timoshev...” after Amador’s jokes. Interestingly, in the original pilot script, Agent Amador (then named Agent Chris Mizzi) is much more on the ball. His dynamic with Stan is that he's the experienced counterintelligence agent showing new guy Stan the ropes. There's a scene of the two of them surveilling the Russian embassy, in which Mizzi points out which guys are KGB officers and explains the difference between the official-cover operatives and the illegals. In the aired pilot, it's replaced by the scene that introduces Agent Gaad -- which, as I've mentioned before, was clearly added in reshoots so the original actor playing Stan's boss could hand the baton off to Richard Thomas. It also seems consciously designed to change Stan from the newbie who doesn't know what's going on to the experienced undercover agent who has intuitive insight into the workings of the illegals. It's seems likely that because of this change, Chris's purpose became less clear, and he ended up being reduced to comic relief and then quickly written out. Interestingly, a season later they brought in Agent Aderholt to play basically the character Amador was originally supposed to be -- the hypercompetent careerist who's run successful operations against Directorate S before and know how to deal with them in a way Stan doesn't. But this time it's a distinction based more in character than circumstance: Stan being too impulsive and unsure of his calling to rise to Dennis's level, rather than just being the new guy. The pilot script, by the way, is fascinating for a lot of other reasons too. It's pretty similar to the finished product, but the overall feel is a little more glib and glossy, and the period details are not as carefully considered. For instance, in General Zhukov's scene at the end of the episode, when he tells Elizabeth that "The Americans . . . have elected a madman as their president," he adds that Reagan calls the USSR "the evil empire" -- which, of course, didn't happen until the speech a few years later dramatized at the end of season 3. On 7/6/2018 at 8:34 AM, Plums said: I definitely feel like there are some relics of characterization in the pilot that maybe linger a bit in early season 1, but are largely abandoned in the rest of the series. Specifically with Philip. The way he's pushy and possessive with Elizabeth, insisting she's his wife and broodingly listening to the tape of her honeytrapping the fed. We've fanwanked it to be about him getting lost in the character, but I really think they just didn't have the idea of who Philip would ultimately be at that point. Yeah, I mean I guess you could say since he knew his feelings were one-sided, all this stuff bothers him more because he's much more insecure about her, but eeeeeehhhhhhhh. I don't really buy it. I don't know what was originally intended or how it changed during the development of season 1, but I can't imagine we're supposed to think that Philip has been pissy and possessive with Elizabeth for twenty years for being overly distant with her husband. The way I make sense of it is to assume that Elizabeth is behaving more standoffishly than usual because all the shit Timoshev has dredged back up. I would guess that in less fraught circumstances, an Elizabeth who hadn't yet fallen in love with Philip, but knew he was in love with her, was capable of leveraging his emotions much more effectively. In fact, Gabriel admits as much to Claudia at the end of season 3: "She was much better with him before this all came out." To Gabriel, "all this" is the Centre's directive to develop Paige, but the other thing that's changed since he last saw P&E is that the two of them fell in love. In any event, I doubt "much better with him" meant that Philip was constantly whining for Elizabeth's affection and she was shooting him down and pulling knives on him and whatnot. Edited July 18, 2018 by Dev F 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 18, 2018 Author Share July 18, 2018 40 minutes ago, Dev F said: It's seems likely that because of this change, Chris's purpose became less clear, and he ended up being reduced to comic relief and then quickly written out. Interestingly, a season later they brought in Agent Aderholt to play basically the character Amador was originally supposed to be -- the hypercompetent careerist who's run successful operations against Directorate S before and know how to deal with them in a way Stan doesn't. But this time it's a distinction based more in character than circumstance: Stan being too impulsive and unsure of his calling to rise to Dennis's level, rather than just being the new guy. This is fascinating! When you were describing Mizzi I thought exactly this, that he sounded like Aderholdt. Though Aderholdt is more interesting, I think. Mizzi would have come across as more about exposition, I suspect, where as Aderholdt is a perfect personality foil to Stan which Amador unfortunately just never was. He's just not a guy that Stan would ever particularly be drawn to and you just wonder how he even has this job. He does provide some exposition, but it's just talking about what happened to Stan's boss which lays the groundwork for personal politics at the FBI. He says the guy went down or Timoshev and that what seems like a lateral move is really a demotion. I guess one other advantage to Amadaor is, as you say, Stan is the one with special talent so he's thrown right into the Nina case. Did they add Stan being undercover later? That's one of the things that's supposed to give him good instincts and it never, to me, seemed truly built into his character. I guess one advantage to Amador being this way is that it never seems strange that he might be trying to find friendship elsewhere. 44 minutes ago, Dev F said: I don't know what was originally intended or how it changed during the development of season 1, but I can't imagine we're supposed to think that Philip has been pissy and possessive with Elizabeth for twenty years for being overly distant with her husband. The way I make sense of it is to assume that Elizabeth is behaving more standoffishly than usual because all the shit Timoshev has dredged back up. I would guess that in less fraught circumstances, an Elizabeth who hadn't yet fallen in love with Philip, but knew he was in love with her, was capable of leveraging his emotions much more effectively. In fact, Gabriel admits as much to Claudia at the end of season 3: "She was much better with him before this all came out." To Gabriel, "all this" is the Centre's directive to develop Paige, but the other thing that's changed since he last saw P&E is that the two of them fell in love. In any event, I doubt "much better with him" meant that Philip was constantly whining for Elizabeth's affection and she was shooting him down and pulling knives on him and whatnot. I agree there's just no way that the two of them have spent 20 years with Elizabeth rejecting Philip and Philip being pushy. Not only is it just impossible to imagine it goes against other things we see, like their flashback to their arrival and the flashback to when Elizabeth decides to start trying for a baby. I just wish I could make that one scene make more sense to me. Presumably Elizabeth is far more comfortable with Philip's teasing before Timoshev turns up since he teases her with the ice cream. When he goes too far by accident he immediately apologizes without her yelling at him and Paige laughs so obviously she doesn't think of this as a serious offense or anything, which she would if there was that kind of tension constantly happening between them. In that scene he's obviously sensitive to her actual reactions, even while being used to being able to draw her into the family fun. I also can't imagine Elizabeth using sex and affection to just keep Philip controlled because it seems to go against the way Elizabeth approached the marriage and it would, imo, have greatly changed the way their eventual romance played out. I just wind up feeling like they hadn't completely worked out how they related to each other romantically before the end of the pilot. Other aspects of their relationship seem already very solid--and very intimate in non-romantic ways. But here I feel like they were only thinking about it in broad terms--that they were obviously married and had had sex and they knew he loved her and they knew she was especially sensitive here because of Timoshev so they wanted him to do something like this, suggesting there's some argument being made. I mean, not only does Philip get pushy and not get surprised when she pulls the knife but he says "You're my WIFE" as if this should mean something. But in the following episodes that's just not at all the dynamic they explored. It's not completely different or anything--Philip does see the marriage as real in the sense that the family is real and there are some deep misunderstandings on his part of what that means. It's just not something that's summed up by "You're my wife." "Is that right?" 1 Link to comment
Dev F July 18, 2018 Share July 18, 2018 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Did they add Stan being undercover later? That's one of the things that's supposed to give him good instincts and it never, to me, seemed truly built into his character. There's nothing about it in the draft of the pilot I linked to. And even in the filmed pilot itself, the only mention of it is in the added scene with Gaad. It definitely feels like something they came up with for the reshoots -- especially since the way they join it to Stan's previously established backstory is a little rickety. In the earlier scene with Amador, he implies that his last job was tracking down bank robbers. Then in the Gaad scene, Stan is like, oh yeah, those bank robbers were white supremacists and I was undercover as one of them. It's such a weird choice -- wouldn't white supremacists be more likely to be domestic terrorists or drug smugglers than bank robbers? -- that I can only assume the earlier scene locked them into bank robbery before they came up with the "undercover with racists" backstory. Oh, another interesting thing about the deleted Russian embassy scene with Stan and Chris: it really lays it on thick that Chris doesn't believe Timoshev's stories about top-secret Directorate S agents all over the United States. I'm guessing the original plan was for that to be how Stan proved himself -- the other guys in Counterintelligence are too set in their embassy-surveilling ways to imagine that the illegals program is the real muscle behind the Soviets' espionage efforts, so new guy Stan has to be the one ask, What if this guy Timoshev was telling the truth? I'm glad they went with something a little more nuanced instead. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 18, 2018 Author Share July 18, 2018 11 hours ago, Dev F said: In the earlier scene with Amador, he implies that his last job was tracking down bank robbers. I think there actually is a RL connection there--that bank robbing actually is a common crime associated with white supremacists. But still think that when he talks about his backstory he never, that I remember, speaks specifically about being a different. He talks to Matthew about things he maybe had to do, but not things like becoming someone else or finding parts of yourself to be that other person or lying to people and having fake relationships etc. 11 hours ago, Dev F said: Oh, another interesting thing about the deleted Russian embassy scene with Stan and Chris: it really lays it on thick that Chris doesn't believe Timoshev's stories about top-secret Directorate S agents all over the United States. I'm guessing the original plan was for that to be how Stan proved himself -- the other guys in Counterintelligence are too set in their embassy-surveilling ways to imagine that the illegals program is the real muscle behind the Soviets' espionage efforts, so new guy Stan has to be the one ask, What if this guy Timoshev was telling the truth? I'm glad they went with something a little more nuanced instead. Agreed. Also it seems like that would have been a very difficult thing to draw out over time. You don't want to have Stan the only one who believes in the stuff that we the audience see going on all the time. Plus, how do you prove him right without the end of the show? Setting him up to catch a big Illegal seems like it just undercuts the tension and makes the rest of the FBI seem dumb by comparison. It seems like at every step the show was better when things got more complicated, where people weren't so much on different sides as on the same side but with different strengths/weaknesses or povs. Iow, mirroring Philip and Elizabeth's own partnership, which maybe started out in the writers' minds as being much less nuanced and harder to maintain without getting annoying. Really, would have just been unsustainable. You can't have Stan be the only person willing to believe in Illegals any more than you can have Elizabeth be the only one committed to protecting Russia. 1 Link to comment
Dev F July 19, 2018 Share July 19, 2018 (edited) 21 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I think there actually is a RL connection there--that bank robbing actually is a common crime associated with white supremacists. Interesting, I didn't know that. I guess it's not as random as I thought it was. And it does make sense that Stan wouldn't want to immediately tell his new partner that he was deep undercover with white supremacists, so he led with "bank robbers" instead. I do still think it was a later add to Stan's backstory, though, since it doesn't appear in the original pilot script and is mentioned only in scenes that seem to have been added in reshoots. Speaking of which . . . Quote But still think that when he talks about his backstory he never, that I remember, speaks specifically about being a different. He talks to Matthew about things he maybe had to do, but not things like becoming someone else or finding parts of yourself to be that other person or lying to people and having fake relationships etc. I think there are small hints of it in the Stan/Sandra scene in the pilot, where Sandra makes fun of her husband for thinking Philip is "a little bit off" and implying that he's been paranoid and suspicious with other people ever since he got back from his undercover gig: "I mean, you don't have to spend three years with the Gold Legion to have instincts. It's just kind of a vibe he gives off. [. . .] I was actually feeling it with Bill Westerly from the condo board, too. [. . .] Yeah, when he was talking about the assessments, I was like, this guy is running drugs in this place. And the mailman, I just have kind of an instinct, is a pimp." The mention of some guy from the condo board is especially telling, since the Beemans don't currently live in a condo, so Sandra must be riffing off some paranoia Stan was exhibiting prior to their move from St. Louis. She adds, "You're back in the regular world, okay? So you need to stop those alarm bells going off every ten minutes." So somewhere at the root of both Stan's dysfunction and his investigative instinct is definitely supposed to be this idea that his time undercover rendered him incapable of settling back in to a normal life. (And it's why it's especially significant that the finale ends with Stan ignoring those alarm bells for the first time, setting aside the investigation at the Jenningses' and his suspicions about Renee to be there for Henry.) Anyway, that Stan/Sandra scene is a fantastic sleeper moment. I always forget it happened, but it's an important scene to understanding Stan's character -- and it's a lot of fun to boot. Susan Misner is so good in her first substantial scene as Sandra; usually the "Honey, you should just be normal!" spouse is a thankless role to play even for the best performer (see: Skyler White), but Misner manages to make her funny and sexy. And, as I mentioned, I'm convinced that this scene, too, was added during reshoots. Not only does it not appear in the pilot script, but it looks like it was shot in the studio-set version of the Beeman kitchen built for the series, rather than the location used for the pilot. (Compare it to the scene in which the Beemans and the Jenningses first meet earlier in the episode, and note the color of the range hood over the stove.) It would make sense for the producers to add a scene that fleshes out the Beemans' marriage, establishes Sandra as a character, and reinforces Stan's revised backstory. Edited July 19, 2018 by Dev F 2 Link to comment
Inquisitionist July 19, 2018 Share July 19, 2018 10 hours ago, Dev F said: And, as I mentioned, I'm convinced that this scene, too, was added during reshoots. Not only does it not appear in the pilot script, but it looks like it was shot in the studio-set version of the Beeman kitchen built for the series, rather than the location used for the pilot. (Compare it to the scene in which the Beemans and the Jenningses first meet earlier in the episode, and note the color of the range hood over the stove.) It would make sense for the producers to add a scene that fleshes out the Beemans' marriage, establishes Sandra as a character, and reinforces Stan's revised backstory. I'm definitely going to rewatch with this in mind. Thanks, DEV! 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 19, 2018 Author Share July 19, 2018 13 hours ago, Dev F said: The mention of some guy from the condo board is especially telling, since the Beemans don't currently live in a condo, so Sandra must be riffing off some paranoia Stan was exhibiting prior to their move from St. Louis. She adds, "You're back in the regular world, okay? So you need to stop those alarm bells going off every ten minutes." So somewhere at the root of both Stan's dysfunction and his investigative instinct is definitely supposed to be this idea that his time undercover rendered him incapable of settling back in to a normal life. (And it's why it's especially significant that the finale ends with Stan ignoring those alarm bells for the first time, setting aside the investigation at the Jenningses' and his suspicions about Renee to be there for Henry.) And it wasn't Sandra or Matthew that made it possible for him to live a normal life. It was most of all the Jennings, which I think is a big reason why he makes the decision he does. The were his connection to normal life and re-watching the clock it seems like that's something that Stan is drawn to. Something that doesn't seem like it just disappears when he finds out Philip was lying. Partly, presumably, because he also had a relationship with his kids. But I think it's also because he does hear the truth in a lot of what Philip says in the garage and does see that perhaps Philip's position made their connection more real instead of less real, if that makes sense. Philip was reaching out to a normal life too. I've just gotten into the very start of Gregory and it's really striking me how terrified I think Philip really is all the time in those early eps. The first racketball game with Stan is especially funny because it's kind of a metaphor for their relationship at that point (and could even be said to foreshadow the end of it). Stan very much has the upper hand at the start of their relationship even though he doesn't realize it, but in the end Philip kind of plays things out for the win, even if it's not a win that gives him any real joy or sense of victory. 3 Link to comment
Erin9 July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 (edited) I re-watched The Clock. It’s a really enjoyable episode on many levels. Though we saw less of P/E doing normal things with their kids over time (which really once they show that they did there’s only so much we “need” to see of it),it was well established that they did- be it Philip playing a night game of hockey with Henry or Elizabeth trying to bond with her daughter via ear piercing. I would have liked to see more normal activities, but we know they happened....off screen. That P/E really were a very good match. Philip starts by complaining that this mission is crazy, it’s impossible. Elizabeth tells him it’s their job and it has to be important. By the end, Elizabeth admits they shouldn’t have been asked to do it- and Philip responds- that they’d been successful, it must have been important and they have a bug in the house. They were good at holding each other up. It was significant that Elizabeth pointedly mentioned she’d thought of Philip when she thought of how dangerous this was. The kids were expected. Philip not so much. Yes- they were partners, parents, probably friends already, but she really wanted him to know she thought of him specifically. The fight scene with Viola’s brother is interesting and smart in that his approach is to not seem super threatening to the guy with the gun so he can get close and start a fight with him. And what a brutal fight that was. I liked Philip keeping his sense of humor while testing the bug. Would have liked more of that. I love the caviar scenes. Just watching the wheels turn in Philip’s head trying to decide how to respond to Stan asking him about having eaten caviar, then how much (or little) he should like it. He really had no idea if Stan was messing with him or not. Of course, we saw later, he really did like it. (It was also a nice surprise for Elizabeth.) What I also liked is it was such a direct contrast between what Philip Jennings liked versus Mischa. I would have liked to see more things like that. Also more examples of reminders of home- beyond starvation- somehow, occasionally being part of their lives. Beyond that home cooked,barely touched leftover Philip got in S6. It would have been nice to see Philip and Stan having fun too. They had racquetball, but that’s really it. Until I rewatched s2, I didn’t notice how little we saw them interact. Stan was really busy though with Nina, Oleg and his failing marriage. Viola was a really strong character. I liked what Philip said about believers in God being difficult targets. He got that right. This episode marked the beginning of the Rezidentura. I wonder if they always intended for it to be part of the show, and just didn’t have time for it in the pilot- or if it was decided later that they needed it. We met Arkady as part of the new guard vs old school Vasilli and Zhukov. As Arkady was introduced, he remained and evolved further in that direction. Interesting. This episode to me marks the beginning of the darker side of Stan and the FBI. Be it blackmailing Nina into treason over theft or physically threatening the store owner for info. They won’t just be wearing white hats. It is notable that Elizabeth’s early observations on the kids seemed fairly accurate to the end. Henry would likely be both highly adaptable like Philip and like Philip in general. I was trying to think of General P/H similarities- love of hockey, cars, American things in general, math skills, adaptability. No where near as demanding and difficult as Paige and Elizabeth. Not cause obsessed. Probably more thinkers in general. Henry and Philip were both thinkers in their ways- Henry as a way to meet his school goals, Philip in thinking through spy/country/centre issues. Paige was a bit fragile. She never broke, but she didn’t have the toughness of her parents either. Even though she thought she was strong like her mom- and only her mom. She got that wrong. But then she realized she didn’t want to be like her mom anyway. No spy work for Paige. ETA- the bugs P/E placed over the years all seemed to yield important intel, except notably the mail robot. Also, no doubt, we never heard all the useful info gained from the bugs. Edited July 20, 2018 by Erin9 Link to comment
Plums July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 One thing I really like about The Clock is that it's kind of a double meaning- not only is it about the bug in the clock itself, but the way in which they have to go about setting it suggests a ticking time bomb. That bug is a ticking time bomb because of how they had to place it, by basically holding a gun to this family's head or else. They strongly objected to working that way, and considering what ultimately happened- Viola inevitably came clean and the FBI were easily able to use the bug to set a trap for them- it's hard not to blame them for their concern. We never really see P&E work targets like that outside of this episode. Like, they implicitly threaten the son of that warehouse worker who catches them in the act of stealing the propeller plans to keep him silent, and they let Todd go after scaring him shitless from that necklacing, but they don't basically just threaten to kill people into doing work for them. It's way too dangerous and unreliable a method. 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: I love the caviar scenes. Just watching the wheels turn in Philip’s head trying to decide how to respond to Stan asking him about having eaten caviar, then how much (or little) he should like it. He really had no idea if Stan was messing with him or not. Of course, we saw later, he really did like it. (It was also a nice surprise for Elizabeth.) What I also liked is it was such a direct contrast between what Philip Jennings liked versus Mischa. I would have liked to see more things like that. Also more examples of reminders of home- beyond starvation- somehow, occasionally being part of their lives. Beyond that home cooked,barely touched leftover Philip got in S6. I kind of feel this too. I loved the caviar bit, and I wish we got more contrast between Philip and Mischa like this. We kind of got some more of that in The Deal, because that episode was really all about Philip's identity being a cover and emphasizes that he isn't really totally Philip Jennings, but we really didn't get a lot of it over the course of the series. 2 Link to comment
Erin9 July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 I think @sistermagpie indicated upthread that Viola and Nina got turned in this episode and turned back in the same episode. That’s such great symmetry. Both were forced into something they didn’t really want to do, and both ultimately followed their conscience. This was so important to S1 and beyond. What’s also an interesting issue is how aware P/E were that turning Viola this quickly and having to resort to such aggression and violence had disaster written all over it. They were in the field, knew what worked and what didn’t. They initially were successful, but it nearly got them caught/killed at the end of the season. No one in the FBI, at the onset, had any reservations about turning Nina the way they did. They may have known the drawbacks, but we never heard them expressed. They never indicated an understanding that blackmail was a very bad long term plan, and should be used as more of a desperate last resort than anything. Which this was not. As Claudia said later, and time bore out, blackmail is the worst way to turn people. It was the case with both Larrick and Nina. It is funny that Nina turning back, not only kept her from being extracted- which might have saved her life IF the KGB never found her (not good odds though), but it also kept P/E from being caught during S1 when Viola turned back. Nina got the FBI some valuable intel, but she cost them P/E. Which was what they really really wanted. That was the big goal. What sold Arkady on sending the abort signal was HER absolute belief that the FBI was going to catch P/E, information she rightly inferred from Stan. The FBI paid rather a high price for blackmailing her too. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 20, 2018 Author Share July 20, 2018 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: That P/E really were a very good match. Philip starts by complaining that this mission is crazy, it’s impossible. Elizabeth tells him it’s their job and it has to be important. By the end, Elizabeth admits they shouldn’t have been asked to do it- and Philip responds- that they’d been successful, it must have been important and they have a bug in the house. They were good at holding each other up. Yes, not only do they always lean the other way on the scale to keep the other person calm, I think they also see that it's more in their natures to react the way they do. Elizabeth doesn't think about the odds or anything else when she gets a mission. She focuses on what they're going to do (something she does relentlessly in S6). Philip constantly thinks about everything that could go wrong. But afterwards, she can allow herself some doubts and he's calm because the danger is passed. Despite Philip constantly sending up alarm signals he never actually hits the panic button until it's time to hit it, at which point he does it calmly and deliberately and Elizabeth never considers arguing with him about it. 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: It was significant that Elizabeth pointedly mentioned she’d thought of Philip when she thought of how dangerous this was. The kids were expected. Philip not so much. Yes- they were partners, parents, probably friends already, but she really wanted him to know she thought of him specifically. Yes, it's really interesting to me watching this ep because they pull back on the romance so much. The caviar is a sweet gesture but it intentionally doesn't lean *too* heavily into the romance. It's enough that Elizabeth sees it as an appropriate moment to tell him this, but the escalation of the romance or them actually both wanting to go further with what happened in the pilot is very delicately done on both sides. They're not just leaping into the thing. 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: The fight scene with Viola’s brother is interesting and smart in that his approach is to not seem super threatening to the guy with the gun so he can get close and start a fight with him. And what a brutal fight that was. I love that fight and found myself thinking of it a lot in S6 when, as I've said, I think Elizabeth just becomes too much like a superhero. This fight is very believable and shows how Philip's training and viciousness give him the advantage over a guy who's bigger and a capable fighter himself. The writers claimed that they later pulled back on their abilities but as far as I can see Elizabeth just got worse and worse in this regard. 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: I love the caviar scenes. Just watching the wheels turn in Philip’s head trying to decide how to respond to Stan asking him about having eaten caviar, then how much (or little) he should like it. He really had no idea if Stan was messing with him or not. Of course, we saw later, he really did like it. (It was also a nice surprise for Elizabeth.) Such a great scene and I think he's right to not really know. Of course it's nothing so obvious as an actual test because it's not like Stan really thinks an undercover agent is going to accidentally like the caviar in a way that's somehow too Russian, but it is very possible that the reason Stan thought of sharing this with Philip was some lingering curiosity or just lingering connection in his head. But Philip's reaction is perfect--I remembering thinking of it later when he meets Martha's parents and they ask him what religion he is and he's got an actual story either planned or chosen in the moment but something he can back up. (I think for Clark he'd have it pre-planned but he still hesitates a moment because the question throws him for a second.) 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: This episode marked the beginning of the Rezidentura. I wonder if they always intended for it to be part of the show, and just didn’t have time for it in the pilot- or if it was decided later that they needed it. We met Arkady as part of the new guard vs old school Vasilli and Zhukov. As Arkady was introduced, he remained and evolved further in that direction. Interesting. I tend to think they always wanted it but there was far too much in the Pilot to bring it in. Plus they weren't necessary. 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: Paige was a bit fragile. She never broke, but she didn’t have the toughness of her parents either. Even though she thought she was strong like her mom- and only her mom. She got that wrong. But then she realized she didn’t want to be like her mom anyway. No spy work for Paige. The more I think about it, the more it seems like Paige is the most lost throughout the show. Even in the last season Elizabeth and Paige both choose this false version of strength, but with Elizabeth at least we saw her going through an evolution in the right direction before that that she eventually accesses via Erika and Philip. Her final choice seems very considered. Where as Paige is somehow less connected to herself and less clued into the world in S6 than S1. She just holds onto this false idea that she's "in on it" because she's with Elizabeth. The fact that she never seems to have a moment of understanding about her father winds up seeming significant to me as well. Perhaps she got some understanding in the sparring scene where he showed her that actual strong people don't always show it, but she jumps right back into desperately following her mom around. 2 hours ago, Plums said: That bug is a ticking time bomb because of how they had to place it, by basically holding a gun to this family's head or else. T It also made me think about Elizabeth in S6. She's much more comfortable with this strongarm stuff than Philip is throughout The Clock and in S6 she's having to use it a lot--with bad results. It doesn't even work on Philip when she tries to berate him for refusing to help kidnap Kimmy. Instead he just digs his heels in even more and announces he warned Kimmy. Every time Elizabeth tries to bully her way into things in S6 it fails--she doesn't even get through to Paige with it. She makes a lot of noise and all, but just gets the usual "I GET it, Mom" response that actually means the opposite. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: No one in the FBI, at the onset, had any reservations about turning Nina the way they did. They may have known the drawbacks, but we never heard them expressed. They never indicated an understanding that blackmail was a very bad long term plan, and should be used as more of a desperate last resort than anything. Which this was not. As Claudia said later, and time bore out, blackmail is the worst way to turn people. It was the case with both Larrick and Nina. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recruitment_of_spies Blackmail was often used by the KGB, and even though this particular edited entry downplays it's use by the USA, we used it as well. Hostages, (such as in the clock) were also used. Greed was sometimes the most popular, but the danger there was that someone else might pay them more. Sex, of course, like Martha, and ideology was another (such as the poor guy that loved the son-murdered dad, or the walk in at the residentura that Stan shot.) I'm surprised Claudia said that, frankly, because it was frequently used by the KGB. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Where as Paige is somehow less connected to herself and less clued into the world in S6 than S1. She just holds onto this false idea that she's "in on it" because she's with Elizabeth. The fact that she never seems to have a moment of understanding about her father winds up seeming significant to me as well. Perhaps she got some understanding in the sparring scene where he showed her that actual strong people don't always show it, but she jumps right back into desperately following her mom around. I wish the writers had bothered to develop the Philip/Paige relationship more. They did earlier on, with him buying her the baptism dress, and in a few other scenes, but nothing compared to her scenes with Elizabeth. I'm sad that they didn't even bother to have a Paige/Philip talk after his sparring "lesson" with her. All the writers seemed to care about was Elizabeth and Paige during the last two seasons. Link to comment
sistermagpie July 20, 2018 Author Share July 20, 2018 30 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I wish the writers had bothered to develop the Philip/Paige relationship more. They did earlier on, with him buying her the baptism dress, and in a few other scenes, but nothing compared to her scenes with Elizabeth. I'm sad that they didn't even bother to have a Paige/Philip talk after his sparring "lesson" with her. All the writers seemed to care about was Elizabeth and Paige during the last two seasons. In the first few episodes they set up Philip as being very easy and understanding with the kids while Elizabeth is awkward and very resistant to any everyday American stuff. In the beginning of Gregory Philip and Paige are at a diner together and Paige promises not to tell Elizabeth that he bought her the teen magazine she's reading. It's similar to the baptism dress where he's helping her follow her own interests while Elizabeth disapproves of everything that doesn't mirror what she wants. That's the first scene where Claudia appears and Philip is immediately suspicious of her. She says Paige is sweet and Paige practically blushes over it. The scene made me surprisingly resentful all over again at Elizabeth intentionally creating a relationship between Paige and Claudia and bringing Claudia right into the family Claudia openly tried to break up and dismissed until the end. It's weird given how many other things Elizabeth does but to me I feel like that's her biggest betrayal of the family (and Paige is as open to Claudia's grandmother act in S6 as she is here). Anyway, it did make me frustrated at how Philip's relationship with Paige wasn't explored with the same detail as Elizabeth/Paige. They hurriedly establish that he's close to Henry in S6 (though there again many people still claimed that Henry was closer to Stan no matter what) but Paige was the kid who knew who he actually was and she still seemed to consider him almost an afterthought at times. It's almost like she was obsessed with being like Elizabeth hoping, by her own admission, that one day she'd meet her own soulmate that way. But the soulmate himself is just a blank space. Or like some final piece of a puzzle she'd receive just for being awesome and good that would make herself whole instead of another complicated person she'd have to work for at times. It again also makes me think of that moment where Elizabeth claims that Henry is becoming "everything Philip wants him to be" in S6. Like again she just looks at the two of them with envy, assuming that Philip's manipulated him into what he imagined instead of Philip just liking this stuff because Henry likes it. She doesn't notice the little signs Philip sends up that he's unhappy with his own choice of life any more than he gets her little--much more subtle--distress signals about Paige. Link to comment
Umbelina July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 Yes, I thought it was contrived to divide up the kids by gender. While I understood that Elizabeth didn't bother with Henry "that kid's weird" and became particularly obsessed with Paige after Center ordered her recruitment? It strained my already waning credibility that Philip would just ignore Paige after that. If anything? Philip would have stayed close to her, knowing what she was getting herself into. Then again, they preferred a pussy whipped Philip for a very long time. Elizabeth ruled, and Philip acquiesced almost all the time, which made me less interested in their "love story" than ever. True, they gave him a backbone in the final story, but it was too little, and too late for me. Honestly, it mostly worked because he was able to act with Oleg, and any Oleg was good Oleg. Amazing actor who brought so much. Elizabeth was the writers focus though, and the more interesting character for them to write. She got the multiple backstories, she was the most solid KGB Officer of the two, and she definitely wore the pants in that family. Thank heavens Mathew Rhys was such a strong actor, the little moments he added to look less like a wimp helped. For me though? Not enough. I was ready to smack him silly several times. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 20, 2018 Author Share July 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Elizabeth was the writers focus though, and the more interesting character for them to write. She got the multiple backstories, she was the most solid KGB Officer of the two, and she definitely wore the pants in that family. Thank heavens Mathew Rhys was such a strong actor, the little moments he added to look less like a wimp helped. For me though? Not enough. I was ready to smack him silly several times. It's kind of odd when you think about it because standing up the KGB and being the Soviet who's aware that he's living under a crazy regime but trying to get along is a pretty good hook for a hero. But for some reason they thought the person forcing themselves not to think was not just the center of the story--which was fine because it was more direct story arc--but sometimes the only thing going on. I assume Philip didn't completely ignore Paige since she was still at the house all the time etc. But that didn't seem to help much. Philip was like everyone else in the world--didn't understand how important she was, so she couldn't actually have a relationship with him. It's almost like she was afraid of being the ordinary person her father always saw her as, even though ultimately that's really who she was. So in her last conversation with Elizabeth she's not only bragging about how she and Brian actually like each other (despite him presumably just being another one of those kids who "thinks they're so political" when they don't understand all the stuff Elizabeth and Claudia are always talking about) but she's suddenly yanking Philip with her and claiming that he'd be just as shocked by Elizabeth's behavior as Paige is. It's basically her church career all over again with Philip quietly supporting her trying to find herself and Paige loudly talking about how much better other people are than him. 9 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Then again, they preferred a pussy whipped Philip for a very long time. Elizabeth ruled, and Philip acquiesced almost all the time, which made me less interested in their "love story" than ever. True, they gave him a backbone in the final story, but it was too little, and too late for me. Honestly, it mostly worked because he was able to act with Oleg, and any Oleg was good Oleg. Amazing actor who brought so much. It's funny that even during S6 it seemed like the jewel scenes were anything with Philip and Oleg even if they didn't get to act in the same scene more than twice. That second meeting the park is easily one of my favorite moments on the show. There's far more screentime and energy spent on the Elizabeth/Paige or Elizabeth/Paige/Claudia scenes even though ultimately those scenes aren't actually going anywhere. I guess it's a nice parallel to the endless garage karate. Just as Philip's martial arts are effective and efficient--the opposite of Paige's--so is his spying compared to what she and Elizabeth are doing. Philip quietly come to an understanding about himself where he can let go of the idea that he wants to be Philip Jennings, and related to that that he must let go of Henry. Elizabeth, meanwhile, avoids disasters that seemed inevitable. She doesn't explicitly pay for the choices she makes with her family--she loses the kids, but so does Philip, and for the same reason. (She even basically wins the fight with Paige.) Circumstances keep her denial of Paige's incompetence from coming to anything. She doesn't know that she practically single-handedly brought the FBI to their door. In fact, in the last few episodes she wakes up (thanks in part to people who have been trying to help her all season just because) and gets a hero story. Many in the audience might have spent a lot of the season wanting her to get some kind of comeuppance but she was still the favorite of her own world. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: It's basically her church career all over again with Philip quietly supporting her trying to find herself and Paige loudly talking about how much better other people are than him. I know they liked to compare the two, and kinda-sorta made that the story, along with Philip's completely pussy-whipped persona, but seriously? It was the KGB. It was far more dangerous and life changing than her flirtation with Jesus, and infatuation/hero-worship of Father Tim. Do I believe he would have abdicated all responsibility to his daughter about that? No. Never. Not even subservient to Elizabeth Philip would have (believably) done that. Another reason this finale season was a fail for me frankly, along with the (come on now!) ridiculous compromise of "you take one I'll take the other kid" stuff. Also, WTF? The KGB didn't want both kids? In what universe? Sorry, but I get so frustrated with this show. I was counting on the final season to tie these ends up, to tell us more about Philip, and to give his character as much attention as Elizabeth's, and since Paige was their primary arc (gag) certainly more interaction with Paige than one sparring session, although, I will say, that scene was my favorite Paige scene EVER on this show. Anyway, with an ending I could have enjoyed, or at the very least, bought, so many other things would have been forgiven from me. However, I didn't and thus could not. So much potential, I think that's why I'm sad and frustrated. Link to comment
Erin9 July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 The funny thing is they may have developed Paige and Philip less, but those are the scenes that stick with me. They meant more imo. Paige didn’t properly appreciate him, but I like to think she finally actually did “get it.” For real. So much of P/E or with Claudia didn’t amount to that much of anything. A waste of time really. And imo Paige and Elizabeth never really bonded. They wanted to, but they didn’t. Too much of their relationship was wrapped up in spies and lies. Which Philip tried to tell them. To no avail. The writers spent more time on Paige and Elizabeth, but I don’t think they developed them more. That would have required a very different relationship than the one they had to form. Philip’s relationship with Henry was more real, with less time imo. And it was always presented that way to me. (Henry being closer to Stan than Philip wasn’t on the show I watched. Never understood that POV.) The thing with Philip is, he drove S6 more than Elizabeth imo. With less material. He chose to work with Oleg and spy on Elizabeth. He chose to blow the Kimmie mission- totally and for good. He chose to help Elizabeth with Harvest. Philip started opening Paige’s mind- whether she admitted it or not. He chose to leave Henry at home. And he chose to tell Elizabeth everything. Her job was to respond to what he’d already done or decided. It wasn’t her so much as him. Elizabeth had to change in the end- but Philip had to make all the choices that got her there. I never thought Philip ignored Paige or stayed out of her life over those 3 years. There was a HUGE difference in how Henry’s total lack of a relationship with his mom played out versus Philip’s with Paige from beginning of the season to the end. She was around all the time and had been over the years. There was no estrangement. They, imo, clearly talked. He knew what was up with her anyway. I think she made a choice to spy, and he tried to accept it and not fight it- until he couldn’t. That was what changed. That’s when he started pushing both her and Elizabeth about her spying. Unfortunately, he got zero credit for it. Not even a follow up with Paige post sparring. That does annoy me. @sistermagpie Good point about Philip worrying about missions. He worried, but that was it. But when it was really time to go- he was calm about it, and Elizabeth never even tried to debate it with him. If he said they were done, they were done. Cool under pressure. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, Erin9 said: I never thought Philip ignored Paige or stayed out of her life over those 3 years. Well, the show said the opposite. Elizabeth specifically says "Henry's yours, Paige is mine" a few times. Also, if he did interact with Paige, the show didn't show us that. I tend to go by what they say and what we see. I would have much preferred more interaction between Paige and Philip, especially after the only interesting thing Paige has ever done, aside from ratting them out, the beat down sparring session. 26 minutes ago, Erin9 said: The thing with Philip is, he drove S6 more than Elizabeth imo. With less material. He chose to work with Oleg and spy on Elizabeth. He chose to blow the Kimmie mission- totally and for good. He chose to help Elizabeth with Harvest. Philip started opening Paige’s mind- whether she admitted it or not. He chose to leave Henry at home. And he chose to tell Elizabeth everything. Her job was to respond to what he’d already done or decided. It wasn’t her so much as him. Elizabeth had to change in the end- but Philip had to make all the choices that got her there. Yes, the little Philip had to do (other than worry about his debt which was boring and took up most of his time) was good. Why? Because he FINALLY stood up to Elizabeth. After 6 seasons, in the finale, he finally called the shots. Well, he called them with Martha as well. However, as @sistermagpie points out, we barely got to see him with Oleg, instead we were treated to Elizabeth on missions, Elizabeth killing more people than ever, in a shortened season, and Elizabeth fretting about Paige, oh! Also, more Elizabeth flashbacks. It was much more interesting to see Philip act like he had a brain and balls for a change, instead of the (to me) sickening deferral to Elizabeth's desires constantly. Still, the only reason she obeyed him at the end was that they were blown, there was no choice but to leave. Link to comment
Erin9 July 20, 2018 Share July 20, 2018 Elizabeth said those words about the kids. Your interpretation of them and mine differ. That’s not what I saw play out exactly or what she meant. Elizabeth got to develop Paige into a spy. She was hers from that POV imo. Without Philip protesting that choice. (Until he did.) Henry would not be a spy. That was it to me. Philip never cut himself off from Paige. That was clear to me. We saw them talk. It’s not like Philip and Paige didn’t interact. When Philip asked a question about Paige, Elizabeth even noted he could ask her himself. Elizabeth CHOSE not to engage with Henry. She didn’t talk to him. She had no clue about his life. She could have gone to his hockey game, but chose work. She could have talked to him when he called, but didn’t. The difference was clear. To me anyway. No argument from me that the writers spent too much time on the travel agent story and not enough on Philip and Oleg. I hate it too. And the lack of Philip/Paige. But- what we got was still better to me. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 (edited) The ONLY critical thing in Paige's life was her KGB story. Philip ignoring that was bullshit. Philip and Elizabeth having an off-screen agreement about that was bullshit. We didn't see Paige and Philip have a single conversation, and her complete disrespect for him was obvious. A follow up conversation to the "sparring" would have been so welcome, and Paige was the main focus of the story, so leaving him out, and letting him fret over money for most of the season wasn't satisfying to me. At the very least they could have clarified his childhood, his brother, him following up on Misha, SOMETHING. Philip was only important because he was married to the character they did care about, Elizabeth. That blows. ETA Elizabeth DID say those words. Also, Paige was disrespectful and uninterested in anything Philip had to say, so that also leads me to believe that Philip abdicated his responsibility for his daughter. Philip is a trained spy, trained at seduction and recruiting, and not just sexual seduction. If he CHOSE to keep a relationship with Paige, he would have done just that. She had no skills, he did. Edited July 21, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Umbelina July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 One of my favorite storylines is something many didn't care for. I loved the kid that killed his parents story pretty much from start to finish. Well, it would have been nice if his dying confession was a bit easier to understand, but other than that? I really loved it. One of my favorite parts of it (there were many but I'll choose this one) is the absolute tension when Philip and Elizabeth didn't know if they were blown, or have any idea who killed their friends/coworkers. There was a particular scene when Elizabeth was standing at the window, watching the street crew in the van, and locking doors. Philip had to leave, and the communication between them was so meaningful but the TENSION was amazing. Nothing big was happening on screen, no murders, but Elizabeth and Philip's fear was palpable. Those kind of moments were what kept me enchanted with this show for so long. I've seen "tension" play out very well, in some cases as well, on many other shows, but never "better" than those scenes, or others on The Americans. When it was good? It was very, very good. Link to comment
Erin9 July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 Well- this we agree on: I did enjoy the whole Jared story. We may disagree on the aforementioned issues and not interpret what was going on in the same manner. But I think S2 as a whole was fantastic. It’s a bit hard to believe he could tell the whole story after getting shot and bleeding out like that, but I’m more than willing to shrug that off. It was well done. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 (edited) Another story I loved was Reagan being shot. I'm old enough, and educated enough, that I had the exact reaction to Haig's shocking speech as the USSR. Well, not quite the exact reaction, I didn't consider a coup in the shooting itself, but I was absolutely horrified at Haig declaring himself in charge. I was equally afraid of Haig, and what he might do. Actually that was the only reason I sort of hoped Reagan wasn't dead. Kinda. It was fascinating watching the USSR and KGB react though, and those reactions were believable. Funny now to think that when I watched the episode the idea that the Soviets suspected a Coup seemed so naive. Now, I realize that the USA is in no way secure, and that just about anything could happen to our "democracy" at any moment. In many ways, it makes all of their reactions so much more understandable. They were well aware how quickly power and governments can be wiped out. -- For me although the entire Mr. Taffet storyline was SO interesting, and TENSE, and well done, nothing beat two moments in that incredible story. Gaad and Stan watching Aderholt shake the bug out of that pen, and the shocked moments after. The moment the blinds closed and Martha's every moment, from that one, to her trying to destroy the receiver in the bathroom. Honestly, I am kind of shocked she didn't get an Emmy for that, she OWNED those scenes. Also, I've actually used the "look at the tip of their nose" trick since then, anyone else? -- By the way, I'm reading some other spy novels right now, these by Daniel Silva (great reads) but one thing that is very interesting about them is that they focus on KGB spies. Since the "Gabriel Allon" books cover several decades, KGB ops are frequently mentioned, and the more recent novels focus on Putin and his gang of KGB "administrators" now, but other occur both before and after the fall of the soviet union. The leads are in Mossad, so they also have many opinions on other foreign spy agencies, including of course the CIA, and the leaky, incompetent mess that is the FBI. They try to avoid FBI involvement whenever possible since there is little finesse, and even less global understanding from that agency. (again through the decades) They're providing some very interesting insight. The Red Sparrow series is also amazing, and I especially like that a career CIA officer wrote those books. -- Another all time favorite moment is Betty telling Elizabeth “That’s what evil people tell themselves when they do evil things.” The scenes between Betty and Elizabeth were so damn good that it allowed me to (at least while they were on screen) ignore the fact that there was no way in hell Philip and Elizabeth would have done either the break in, or the modifications on the Mail Robot. The KGB has pros do that kind of thing, not illegals. (Yes, I know that's true of most of their missions, but that was so completely out there it stood out more.) Worth it for Betty? Yes. ETA adding a couple of others I loved all things William and all things Oleg. Of all the sex scenes on this show, I thought Oleg's and Tatiana's was the most "real." William as the jaded, tired spy was simply perfection from start to his sad end, from his awkward running to him sniping the telephone and bagging it after Elizabeth called Paige. He never lost me. Edited July 21, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie July 21, 2018 Author Share July 21, 2018 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: Do I believe he would have abdicated all responsibility to his daughter about that? No. Never. Not even subservient to Elizabeth Philip would have (believably) done that. Another reason this finale season was a fail for me frankly, along with the (come on now!) ridiculous compromise of "you take one I'll take the other kid" stuff. Also, WTF? The KGB didn't want both kids? In what universe? This is something that has never made any sense to me and seems really artificial. They do seem to want to pretend that there was some sort of "deal" where Henry would be left out of it but that makes no sense whatsoever. Philip doesn't have the power to keep the KGB away from his kid. Why would he? That was a whole story in S3-5. It makes it seem like the KGB just *forgot* about this program. And that in itself could I guess have worked if they just made that a story, like say that there was some new person in charge and this person never trusted that 2nd gen program. Maybe they had some other problem with some other kid--who knows? Just say that. Don't build up the whole idea and then have the KGB admit the whole thing was just meant as a plot point for Paige and not a real thing. Even Paige's own "training" seemed to no longer have anything to do with the KGB. It might have just been Elizabeth herself bringing her kid into the mix like she would any other person she recruited. There was no sense that Paige was some big jewel in the crown for the KGB. I get that they didn't want to write that story for Henry but, well, they wrote themselves into that corner. It wasn't forced on them. It's not like Philip had more power when Henry's turn came up. Elizabeth and Philip made a deal that Henry's now Philip's department and Paige is Elizabeth's (phew, they deserve each other) but Elizabeth's distance from Henry isn't being imposed on her by Philip. On the contrary, Philip's encouraging her to spend time with him and she's rejecting it because of her own issues. 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: I never thought Philip ignored Paige or stayed out of her life over those 3 years. There was a HUGE difference in how Henry’s total lack of a relationship with his mom played out versus Philip’s with Paige from beginning of the season to the end. She was around all the time and had been over the years. There was no estrangement. They, imo, clearly talked. He knew what was up with her anyway. I think she made a choice to spy, and he tried to accept it and not fight it- until he couldn’t. That was what changed. That’s when he started pushing both her and Elizabeth about her spying. Unfortunately, he got zero credit for it. Not even a follow up with Paige post sparring. That does annoy me. Yes, that's the way it seemed to me. After Rehnull's death Paige runs home to Philip and knows she'll get comfort. He tries to give her advice about not thinking she can repress her feelings like her mother's trying to do and she's not able to get an easy answer from him, but she knew that as always her father would listen to her problems. It's not like the Elizabeth/Henry scene where them talking at all is unusual. He's treating her the same way he treats Henry, accepting her choices--he's less happy with hers than Henry's, but he's accepting them. And he does finally just step in and play the heavy. Paige's conflict scenes with Elizabeth, if they don't end with a moment of approval for Paige, often end with Paige walking away--she leaves the garage (with a snarky comment about sleeping with who she wants), leaves to go apply for her internship under mom's orders, walks out of the kitchen after Elizabeth's tirade about sex, leaves the house after the Renhull discussion. After their sparring scene it's Philip who leaves without a glance over his shoulder, with Paige doubled over and gasping. But it's true there's never any moment where Paige explicitly acknowledges anything Philip has been saying to her. In her last moments of normal life (before she learns they're running) she mentions Philip twice. She says Elizabeth's "brought him" to her place after their kitchen fight and in the kitchen itself she re-purposes all the tension between her parents as Philip just feeling exactly what Paige is feeling in that moment. Iow in both scenes he's important for whose side he's on, Paige's or Elizabeth's. 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: Philip is a trained spy, trained at seduction and recruiting, and not just sexual seduction. If he CHOSE to keep a relationship with Paige, he would have done just that. She had no skills, he did. This one I'm ambivalent on. On one hand, I think they always made it a very central part of Philip's character that he did not want to use his spy skills on the kids. That seemed to be his prime directive as a parent. Elizabeth wanted to mold the kids into who they should be--mini versions of her. She could do that with Paige and did it. Henry was clearly never going to bend to her so she had nothing with him. (Or maybe she saw leaving Henry alone as another way of stating that Philip wasn't cut out for the life.) Where as I think Philip was committed to letting both kids be themselves and was very wary about trying to manipulate them. With Paige, whenever Elizabeth was manipulating and Philip was hanging back she showed him no respect. She always valued Elizabeth's conditional love more than Philip's unconditional support, but he was still committed to it. He never got treated worse by Paige than when he was respecting her as an individual. "Be you" is important enough to him that it was the last thing he said to his son and it was important enough for him to awkwardly drop the mask to try to tell it to Paige earlier. But otoh, either for character reasons or or plot reasons, he pulls his punches by not being honest with her and allowing Elizabeth to control the narrative. He hints that Elizabeth's lying about Renhull, but doesn't just say it (even with Paige lecturing him about it). He doesn't tell her why he quit spying and so allows Elizabeth to push the narrative that he just got burnt out and chose to stop being a noble hero like her. He doesn't challenge Paige's impression of Claudia. He's not there for the argument with Paige about sex. I think Erin is right that both Elizabeth and Philip start S6 in sort of altered states. Elizabeth is dead inside but Philip's asleep or stuck, numbing himself with a life that isn't really a dream come true. Part of his waking up is him starting to get involved with Paige's training and maybe that's why he doesn't start out making strong enough decisions there. (Plus he does share some of Elizabeth's reasons for lying to her.) It takes a bit before he really starts making strong decisions--Great Patriotic War is both where he spars with Paige and blows up the Kimmy plot. In a way, that's an interesting parallel. He's always used Kimmy and tried to protect Paige, but in the same ep he spars with Paige he protects Kimmy, a girl Paige's age who's made much better choices. And he protects her by being more honest than he should be in the same ep where he's probably more honest with Paige than in any other scene. 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: I loved the kid that killed his parents story pretty much from start to finish. Well, it would have been nice if his dying confession was a bit easier to understand, but other than that? I really loved it. Me too. I definitely see the plot issues with the ending but that was one of those stories where the emotional note was, imo, perfect. The child of Illegals murdered the entire family because he was so disturbed by learning the truth without his parents telling him. Psychologically his actions all made perfect sense to me, especially his killing his sister as well. 1 hour ago, Umbelina said: They try to avoid FBI involvement whenever possible since there is little finesse, and even less global understanding from that agency. (again through the decades) I like the way that's sort of a given on the show. Amador and Stan both seem hopeless at their Russian language lessons, Stan never picks up a single crumb of Russian culture, it seems, and twice in the last episode tells Russian agents that he doesn't give a shit who runs their country, as if it has nothing to do with him. The culture of the FBI department doesn't encourage that sort of understanding at all. Not totally related, but that reminded me of how Nina once makes a reference to Anna Karenina and Stan's completely unfamiliar with it while Clark's proposal to Martha seems like it echoes it a little bit. Link to comment
Umbelina July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 (edited) My point is, if Philip wanted to save his daughter from the stupid choices she was making? He could have. At the very least he could have given her a balanced view of what she was getting into. I don't believe he would willingly let Claudia and Elizabeth feed her propaganda daily, and never try to help her. Yet, from all of her reactions to, and dismissals of him? He did just that. She was going in blind, and he allowed it. Edited July 21, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Plums July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 My personal headcanon is that Philip stepping back with Paige and allowing her to be recruited by Elizabeth and Claudia without interference or complaint is the reason why he was allowed to retire and doesn't have to worry about Henry. idk, that seemed to me to be what was implied when Elizabeth referenced their deal early s6. Though even Elizabeth concedes his point when he seemed to interfere with her propaganda after Renhull, because he still has the right as her father to object to Paige's life being endangered. 1 Link to comment
Erin9 July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 (edited) The only thing I get from the deal is that Philip would stop fighting Paige’s recruitment since that’s what she said she wanted. (And Henry would never be recruited.) Not that he would stop talking to her about anything important and/or spy related. Her talking to him about Renhull’s death seemed to be a normal conversation for them. They’d probably discussed stuff before. It didn’t feel like this was the first chat they’d had in a long time. It was comfortable. They were comfortable with each other. It wasn’t awkward. (Contrast that with Elizabeth talking to Henry, which I mention below.) Elizabeth talked to Philip about Paige’s training. That may have been the first time she started to admit Paige didn’t have the talent for it. But it also didn’t seem like the training subject was never broached between them. Philip didn’t know how poorly Elizabeth was training her or Paige’s own lack of skills until S6 progressed, but he didn’t seem clueless about her either. Philip/Paige’s relationship wasn’t like Elizabeth calling Henry and him clearly being stunned she wanted to talk to him at all. Not to mention the conversation that followed demonstrated Elizabeth’s utter cluelessness about his life period. (And again Philip had encouraged her to spend time with him.)Not only was she not talking to Henry, she apparently didn’t ask Philip about Henry much either. Or pay attention to what he did say. It does frustrate me that Henry not being recruited wasn’t explicitly explained. The KGB wanted it. They obviously let it go, but the why of it was not explained. The problem with the 3 year time jump is we don’t know how Paige’s decision to spy was handled. How the conversation even started. We don’t even know when that decision was made. 3 years? 2 years? 1 year? At the end of S5, all we know is Paige isn’t afraid of going to the food pantry anymore, and she has the weight of dealing with P Tim lifted. And she’s done with religion. She likes aspects of Marxism and likes causes. The time jump is fairly easy to deal with for all the characters except her. We don’t know what Philip initially said to her about becoming a spy. Or anyone else for that matter. We don’t know exactly how Philip explained his retirement to her. We only know how Elizabeth was selling it to Paige years later when Philip wasn’t around. And Paige decided to cling to Elizabeth’s version of events. Because it allowed her to keep training to be a spy and telling herself he just wasn’t strong enough to keep doing it. She was into it- like her mom. She, like so many kids, thought she understood life and her dad just didn’t. Change the subject and Paige could have been any kid mouthing off to her dad. It didn’t seem to be news to Paige that Philip objected to her spying. He made that clear when he commented they were back to it (talking about spying, instead of life). And she didn’t seem surprised by that. His retirement alone would have been telling on some level about his POV on spying. Even Paige saying she’s not like him almost implies some prior conversation. Part of the problem with Paige is she was a know it all, stubborn, self righteous, and disrespectful once she decided on something- be it the church/activism or spying- as in spying at all or what it actually took to be one. She didn’t really listen to a contrary POV or even listen well at all. She wasn’t going to really listen to Philip when he was saying something she didn’t want to hear. That’s how Philip got fed up and started sparring with her. The sparring lesson was the most effective lesson she got from either one of them, even if she never mentioned it. The point made was undeniable. Paige didn’t listen to her mom either for that matter when she didn’t want to hear it. She’d say she got it to end the conversation, but she didn’t get anything. The thing is- Elizabeth never spelled out just what a manipulative business spying is. The lives it can destroy. Paige knew enough that she should have had a better understanding, but she didn’t until it was in her face. But- Paige wasn’t listening anyway. Elizabeth didn’t tell her everything she needed to know, but some things she needed to know- Paige blew off and didn’t hear anyway. Elizabeth explicitly told her to date someone or use someone for info- but NOT to mix the two. But she clearly didn’t fully grasp all that meant until the end. Paige had very selective hearing. Was she listening when Elizabeth was telling her AGAIN how important it was to not draw attention to herself? No imo. She was just mad at getting called out. Edited July 21, 2018 by Erin9 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 21, 2018 Author Share July 21, 2018 10 hours ago, Umbelina said: My point is, if Philip wanted to save his daughter from the stupid choices she was making? He could have. At the very least he could have given her a balanced view of what she was getting into. I don't believe he would willingly let Claudia and Elizabeth feed her propaganda daily, and never try to help her. Yet, from all of her reactions to, and dismissals of him? He did just that. She was going in blind, and he allowed it. Yes, that's specifically the part I thought needed explaining in terms of what exactly Philip's pov was. Because of exactly this, the way that he doesn't seem to be going as far as he can with his pov. I believe that he would allow her to spy if that's what she said she wanted because it was laid out that that's what he thought was right. He wasn't going to manipulate events to prevent her because he didn't think it was a good choice. He himself isn't as far from Elizabeth's pov as the audience is at all--he does see the value of spying when it's done for a good cause, obviously. Plus for several seasons he seems to have lost faith in himself and his own decisions. It's only in S6 when he starts actually feeling like he knows what he should be doing and a lot of that has to do with him acting on behalf of the USSR and spying. But I would have liked to know why he wasn't more upfront with Paige before the sparring. 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: The only thing I get from the deal is that Philip would stop fighting Paige’s recruitment since that’s what she said she wanted. (And Henry would never be recruited.) Not that he would stop talking to her about anything important and/or spy related. Her talking to him about Renhull’s death seemed to be a normal conversation for them. They’d probably discussed stuff before. It didn’t feel like this was the first chat they’d had in a long time. It was comfortable. They were comfortable with each other. It wasn’t awkward. (Contrast that with Elizabeth talking to Henry, which I mention below.) Totally agree. We weren't looking at situations that were completely parallel there. Philip was the person in the family who was trying to keep them all together and had relationships with all of them. He was in conflict with Paige and Elizabeth but he hadn't given up on either of them the way both of them seem to have given up on Henry until they faced leaving him. Philip and Paige weren't estranged, they just both knew that he didn't like what she was doing and she was defiant about it in a particularly adolescent way. Elizabeth and Henry were estranged, and that was something Elizabeth was choosing. She'd decided anyone and anything outside of her narrow interest wasn't worth her attention. 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: The problem with the 3 year time jump is we don’t know how Paige’s decision to spy was handled. How the conversation even started. We don’t even know when that decision was made. 3 years? 2 years? 1 year? Yeah, I get the impression that Paige probably hasn't been actually working very long doing surveillance. Before that quite possibly there wasn't as much to object to. She'd be learning observational skills, some basics of spycraft. Perhaps the summit is the first time Elizabeth really starts using Paige. We know she was covering for her and in denial herself. We know she had a distorted idea of what Paige would be expected to do. When Paige got the sailor's name wrong Elizabeth covered it up but was also alarmed enough that she almost told Philip about it. He knew that she was working. Paige told him everything she knew about the Renhull thing. Elizabeth was keeping the details of her assignment from him but not Paige's involvement. He knew she was learning about Russian culture with Claudia. (Bringing Claudia into the mix, to me, is like the parallel to her rejection of Henry--a clear signal that she's coming close to embracing the values Gregory said they shared.) Elizabeth always gets more room to be herself and more attention from the show and sometimes that leads to higher expectations for Philip because he's not explained as clearly, but if Elizabeth can be in denial he can be also. He's not the healthy person here at the start of S6. He doubts all his own instincts and has for a long time relied on Elizabeth's faith. I'm not sure if Elizabeth thinks she's a good mother, but I don't think Philip considers himself a good father a lot of the time. 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: It didn’t seem to be news to Paige that Philip objected to her spying. He made that clear when he commented they were back to it (talking about spying, instead of life). And she didn’t seem surprised by that. His retirement alone would have been telling on some level about his POV on spying. Even Paige saying she’s not like him almost implies some prior conversation. Part of the problem with Paige is she was a know it all, stubborn, self righteous, and disrespectful once she decided on something- be it the church/activism or spying- as in spying at all or what it actually took to be one. She didn’t really listen to a contrary POV or even listen well at all. She wasn’t going to really listen to Philip when he was saying something she didn’t want to hear. That’s how Philip got fed up and started sparring with her. The sparring lesson was the most effective lesson she got from either one of them, even if she never mentioned it. The point made was undeniable. Paige didn’t listen to her mom either for that matter when she didn’t want to hear it. She’d say she got it to end the conversation, but she didn’t get anything. The thing is- Elizabeth never spelled out just what a manipulative business spying is. The lives it can destroy. Paige knew enough that she should have had a better understanding, but she didn’t until it was in her face. But- Paige wasn’t listening anyway. Elizabeth didn’t tell her everything she needed to know, but some things she needed to know- Paige blew off and didn’t hear anyway. Elizabeth explicitly told her to date someone or use someone for info- but NOT to mix the two. But she clearly didn’t fully grasp all that meant until the end. Paige had very selective hearing. Was she listening when Elizabeth was telling her AGAIN how important it was to not draw attention to herself? No imo. She was just mad at getting called out. Yeah, again this goes back to the fact that the show just presented us in S6 with an extreme situation that we didn't have the information to completely understand. They were having Paige work as a spy like Marilyn and Hans while still actually just being a teenager fighting with her parents. That seems impossible, but it seems like that was the idea. Many people were amused at the idea that Paige's big confrontation with Elizabeth is over her mother sleeping with someone outside her marriage when she's been acting as lookout to multiple murders etc. But it wasn't even just that Paige was being puritanical. For all her claims that she "always knew" about every lie it's not clear how she sees so many things. She sees her mother as a bad person who lies, that much is clear. But she's seen her as that before and come back for more. I don't know how she sees herself. I mean, there doesn't seem to be any big self-reckoning going on. It's just about judging and rejecting her mother, the fallen idol--and by association her father. Yet she still doesn't really seem to understand them any more than she did when she was accusing them of having affairs and not caring about the world. It's ironic, for instance, that the garage scene somewhat turns on Philip--the person Paige dismisses as not caring about this stuff--desperately wanting to protect his country. This is the country that Paige has ostensibly been spending months making herself "love" or whatever, and not only does she not know about this crisis it frankly seems like she's more in Stan's mindset here and not much caring who runs it. Does she believe her mother's rant about people dying all around her and sex being nothing in comparison to protecting the country? Or is this just another exaggeration like Claudia's sex for food story in her mind? In the moment she gets the truth from her mother she leaves. She doesn't seek further understanding of this strange mindset. Then when they show up at her apartment she still seems more offended at their behavior than scared of being caught by the FBI despite the fact that she herself is now just as much a criminal as they are. (More so, actually--she's a traitor.) But she still honestly doesn't seem to know it. This isn't a bad thing. It was actually a really interesting choice to make her situation such a disaster. But there was a lot of time spent on it without focusing on that part of it so much in a dynamic way. Ultimately it was all avoided and Paige got to mostly stay in her ignorant state. She had her big revelation about honeytrapping and her mother doing things of which Paige Did Not Approve and Lying About It but it didn't seem to carry with it a larger understanding the way that the Elizabeth/Claudia showdown did. There Elizabeth not only understood that she'd been lied to, she understood Claudia's pov and understood how she herself was also guilty, that Philip actually was right in thinking independently. She was angry at him for lying, but she'd clearly lost his trust too. The action she took was meant to set things right. Paige's final action, imo, wasn't about any of that. Or at least not about most of it. She was at least rejecting them as leaders in that moment. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 (edited) 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: But I would have liked to know why he wasn't more upfront with Paige before the sparring. Yes, one of my other issues about this finale season. In truth? The writers had this mother daughter story in mind for years, and they were going to twist situations to fit that story, which was a huge mistake in my opinion. Whatever they were going for? It didn't work for me, because, no, I do not believe Philip, for ANY reason, would let his daughter walk into the life that tore him apart and made him "feel like shit all the time" without at least making absolutely sure her eyes were wide open to what that life would be. The Philip that would do that? Is not the Philip we've watched for all these years. 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: She wasn’t going to really listen to Philip when he was saying something she didn’t want to hear. That’s how Philip got fed up and started sparring with her. The sparring lesson was the most effective lesson she got from either one of them, even if she never mentioned it. The point made was undeniable. I think Erin said this, BTW, but I quoted it in SM's post Anyway, that's what I meant earlier when I said Philip was a highly trained KGB Operations Officer. If Philip wanted her to listen to him? She would have been willingly listening. She would be putty in his hands. That's not "using spy tricks" or "manipulating her." That's who he is, that's who he's spent his life being. Would he use his remarkable skills to enable an honest conversation with his daughter? Would he have done that already in the 3 long years she became "rah rah Mommy! Woo! USSR!" ? OF COURSE HE WOULD. He would want to counter the propaganda and lies he knew his idiot, but loved daughter was being fed 24-7, 365 days a year from Claudia (a woman he does not trust) and his wife, a woman who is obviously lying to his daughter and honey-coating what she is getting into. IF Philip had been doing that before the sparring? We would know it. We damn sure should have known it (writers, hello!) Instead, it was obvious he had not, since Paige was still completely in the dark about what her life would become, and she smarted off to him constantly. 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Many people were amused at the idea that Paige's big confrontation with Elizabeth is over her mother sleeping with someone outside her marriage when she's been acting as lookout to multiple murders etc. This comment to the above and below quotes, formatting problems. I can completely understand that Paige was freaked out about the sex, BTW, I thought that was one of Paige's most true moments, aside from the sparring, all season. At twenty, just the idea of your mother having sex is hard enough to handle, but that kind of sex? That's one other thing I think Philip would have discussed with her, but once again, the writers chose to write him as pussy whipped, yes dear, whatever you say dear, I'll bite my tongue dear, and let Elizabeth call the shots. I just don't buy that, this was Paige's LIFE on the line, her happiness, her future, and she was being lied to, manipulated, and Philip allowed that. He had the skills to get through to her with objective truth, and I'm supposed to believe he would not do that? I'm not talking about sabotage here, I'm talking about giving his only daughter the whole story about what life as a KGB spy would be. Accessory to multiple murders. Oh, and that's another thing, even if we are supposed to believe Paige never bothered to read a newspaper, so didn't know the sailor was murdered that night, or how many died in the warehouse she was at that night? PHILIP WOULD KNOW. He would know exactly what it meant, and the legal implications for his only daughter. 39 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Then when they show up at her apartment she still seems more offended at their behavior than scared of being caught by the FBI despite the fact that she herself is now just as much a criminal as they are. (More so, actually--she's a traitor.) But she still honestly doesn't seem to know it. Edited July 21, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Erin9 July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 @sistermagpie- good point about Philip seeing the value of spying if it was for a good cause. He spied on his wife in the end for his country. I tend to agree that Paige probably hadn’t been spying for that long. Certainly not 3 years. Philip seemed to be stuck, as Kimmie said, when we catch up with him. His wake up call seemed to start with Oleg getting him to spy, and Philip choosing a new path- something that he really believed in. At the same time, he was seeing- probably for the first time- just what a disaster recruiting Paige was turning out to be: She was getting in situations that could get her killed, didn’t fully get what was happening, and clearly was not prepared to take care of herself in a physical fight. So, he started stepping in. Then- after the first half of the season having a fair amount of focus on her, Paige largely disappeared until she actually “got” something. Then it was time to run. We really didn’t see much of Paige period after the spar session. It was a curious decision. Honestly- Paige was just a mess. Maybe that was the point. The whole situation was a mess. Paige didn’t listen and wasn’t cut out for the job. Elizabeth trained her poorly. Philip finally started stepping in- in a direct manner. Why it took so long is hard to say. We just know he finally did. I really wish they’d directed more of Philip’s airtime to the spy side of things. It was so much more interesting than the capitalist end. So many SERIES favorites are scenes with Philip in S6. It’s amazing how some of the writing for him was the best moments of the show- and then they stick him worrying about money. Link to comment
Umbelina July 21, 2018 Share July 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Erin9 said: At the same time, he was seeing- probably for the first time- just what a disaster recruiting Paige was turning out to be: She was getting in situations that could get her killed, didn’t fully get what was happening, and clearly was not prepared to take care of herself in a physical fight. So, he started stepping in. He stepped in ONCE. Seriously, does that sound like the Philip we've come to know? He knew she wasn't cut out for spying, and he didn't want her life ruined by it LONG ago. He argued it several times with Elizabeth, also with Claudia, also with Gabriel. We are supposed to believe he traded his daughter's future and very life for his own, and for Henry's? In what universe? Philip was always close to both of his children, unlike Elizabeth, he didn't love one more than the other. 5 minutes ago, Erin9 said: I really wish they’d directed more of Philip’s airtime to the spy side of things. It was so much more interesting than the capitalist end. So many SERIES favorites are scenes with Philip in S6. It’s amazing how some of the writing for him was the best moments of the show- and then they stick him worrying about money. Indeed. This was Elizabeth's story though, entirely. Even Paige was only there to highlight that. Link to comment
sistermagpie July 21, 2018 Author Share July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: Yes, one of my other issues about this finale season. In truth? The writers had this mother daughter story in mind for years, and they were going to twist situations to fit that story, which was a huge mistake in my opinion. Right, at times it seemed like they were really into Paige and Elizabeth's dance with each other and hadn't really thought about where Philip would realistically fit in so instead they just came up with a blanket explanation of him being out of it and accepting that Paige was spying without thinking of exactly how he'd be okay with that. Sure he might accept her choice, but why would he accept her being Martha'd? Why would he be Martha-ing her himself by not coming out and being truthful? In fact, it wouldn't even have necessarily had to have gotten so far as him telling her they seduce people for work or kill people for getting in their way or that they're often wrong. He could have just asked *her* questions about what she was doing and why because obviously her commitment was quite shallow. Like if she said to him that her biggest fear was being alone surely he would have been able to say that that's *exactly* what she's choosing. That if she thinks she's isolated because she has her parents' secret she's piling on more secrets and why on earth does she think she's going to meet some cute spy boy to make it all better? I guess he could have had at least those kind of conversations earlier. Maybe they just didn't get into specifics and Philip did ask her things like whether she really wanted to lie etc. or whatever and she just insisted yes she did the way she always did. Maybe that was the only time she seemed happy and she said that was true, but still. It's hard to imagine him going along with this as happily he was. 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: I can completely understand that Paige was freaked out about the sex, BTW, I thought that was one of Paige's most true moments, aside from the sparring, all season. At twenty, just the idea of your mother having sex is hard enough to handle, but that kind of sex? Oh, I agree. I totally buy it. But I wasn't surprised people didn't realize how far behind she was from the audience, especially with Elizabeth always jumping on the danger of her sleeping with someone and getting info from them. And Paige seeming to be wanting to run her own honeypot when she was really disturbed at the idea. For where Paige was that revelation was *everything* because by her own admission her biggest goal here is not being alone, and her biggest focus is her parents' marriage. Now here's Elizabeth ruining all of that. 2 hours ago, Erin9 said: I really wish they’d directed more of Philip’s airtime to the spy side of things. It was so much more interesting than the capitalist end. So many SERIES favorites are scenes with Philip in S6. It’s amazing how some of the writing for him was the best moments of the show- and then they stick him worrying about money. Yeah, it seemed like the capitalism stuff could have been handled more efficiently and more clearly too. I was glad that Paige went away after the midpoint in that I didn't find her interesting and her scenes were repetitive--plus that second half was when they brought home the Elizabeth/Philip conflict that was the real point. But I think they could have used her later scenes to more clearly show some things with her. So many of her scenes are about her doing something poorly without having to deal with that. Like when she's with Elizabeth and Claudia there's no moments where she's obviously so wrong and they're reacting to it. She's just kind of there and not doing anything actually good. She's often just wishy-washy. Like the scene in Harvest is good because the audience could see just how screwed up she was with her weak commitment but it's also just yet another scene where Elizabeth makes a speech and Paige says she gets it and Elizabeth and Paige both seem to think that's enough. I wish, too, that Philip had gotten a scene where he could more obviously state more feelings like when he's talking to Stan about his thoughts about money and business. For instance, take one of his scenes with Henry. They have him flailing at Henry's suggestion to talk to his friend's father, but that could also have led to Philip carefully suggesting that he feels like trying to be like the friend's father Henry's describing isn't really what he wants to do. It's something he thought he should do but it didn't make him happy--and not just because it didn't work out. That's something Philip could have said as Philip to Henry and it would have been a nice convo that would have resonated with Henry later in life, like if he asked Philip what he liked to do and he gave some version of the truth about helping people. It would have given us another little glimpse into what he was feeling, like when he said that to Kimmy. Philip very rarely gets to do that. It would be a bit like that other scene with Kimmy where you get glimpse into how he feels about Paige telling their secret. Usually instead of that they just kept hitting the note of Philip never ever being able to find his feet as Philip Jennings. He didn't get enough of a chance to claim his real identity while wearing that mask enough. It's a shame, for me, because I find that story fascinating. The idea of this guy who basically grew up only ever living for survival and being barely aware of having an identity eventually putting in the work to sort himself out and reclaim or know himself. And that story isn't about him saying that he really is this American Dream guy or whatever. He couldn't know for sure who he was until he also tried this false idea of being Philip. He's not the same kid he was when he signed up, but he is that kid grown up. 1 Link to comment
Erin9 July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 (edited) I look at Philip’s attitude towards Paige spying at the very beginning of S6 as resigned. He didn’t want her to be a spy, and it was another battle he lost. He seemed to be trying to just live with it and not cut himself off from Paige in the process- ie E/Henry. It was likely pretty depressing. When he lost the spy battle over the last 3 years, we don’t know. Henry then went to boarding school. That was easier to accept. It was hardly going to ruin him. It just wasn’t what Philip had wanted. He and Elizabeth grew apart. The business wasn’t doing well. His experiment as being Philip Jennings wasn’t making him happy. It wasn’t his dream after all. The only good news was he wasn’t having to spy much anymore. He was stuck. Kimmie said he was stuck in the episode where he chose to work with Oleg- and he said he was working on it. He wanted to use his powers for good. And then he repeated those words back to her when he split with her. That he’d been stuck and was trying to fix things. It was the same episode he sparred with Paige. Where he showed her how little she knew about anything. He was working on digging out of the hole. However- the show dropped the Paige story at this point, never really picking it up again until she gets it. I’m not complaining. It was repetitive. We “got it” regarding Paige. Except she needed more time with Philip. That was missing. Logically- Philip and Paige had more to talk about. We should have seen it. But apparently Paige wasn’t doing anything else that required his immediate attention. (And they needed the moment of getting it to be with the woman who’d pushed for it.) We simply didn’t see her period. And Philip got busy with Henry, Harvest, the truth about Oleg- and then it was time to go. I supppse he saw it as something he could pick up when another teaching moment presented itself- like with the general dying, then with sparring. Similar to Elizabeth- he could forcefully present his POV when a situation popped up where he could make his case- that she put Paige’s life in danger, that Paige shouldn’t spy, that she should have her mother to talk to, etc. But, time ran out. And it wasn’t much time anyway. The point was- he was trying. It’s hard for me to comment on Philip just letting Paige spy because we missed all of it. By the time we pick up, she’d chosen. It was seemingly done. What exactly Philip said is unknown. What she said is unknown. We don’t even know how much Philip thought she “got” about spying. Maybe what she said to him was more or less what she said to Elizabeth- she felt out of options. Who knows. But, knowing Philip, he was unhappy and made that known. I can’t imagine otherwise. Paige says she’s not like him for a reason. And she clearly knows he didn’t like her choice. He seemed to be trying to help Paige- listen to and talk to her in early S6. His tone was very resigned when he told Elizabeth he supposed she’d seen it all now- after the general died. He was far from happy. And in saying that he somewhat implied that in that moment he thought she understood more than she actually did. Soon- he realized how much she was clueless about. Which was a lot. Seemingly, through taking a positive step in his life- working with Oleg, he starts trying to fix things that he realizes- or has known all along on some level really- need fixing. Paige doesn’t fully get it. She’s not prepared. He’s never wanted this for her anyway- here’s his chance to try again and start moving her in the right direction. He starts pushing Elizabeth too. He spies on E. And so on. Some of his work is left undone. He surely didn’t say it all- not to Paige, not to Henry. He didn’t know the road was coming to an end while he was walking it- paraphrasing the opening song of the season. The interesting thing is- much as this show was about Elizabeth needing to change, about Paige and Elizabeth’s mess of a relationship, and the marriage of course- the show stops when Philip quits spying and picks up when Oleg approaches him. His return to spying, his awakening, is when the writers saw fit to give us glimpses of the Jennings world again. The in between was ignored. As little of it as we saw- the show heavily turned on all of Philip’s choices in S6 leading to Elizabeth finally seeing the light. Edited July 23, 2018 by Erin9 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 23, 2018 Author Share July 23, 2018 39 minutes ago, Erin9 said: The interesting thing is- much as this show was about Elizabeth needing to change, about Paige and Elizabeth’s mess of a relationship, and the marriage of course- the show stops when Philip quits spying and picks up when Oleg approaches him. His return to spying, his awakening, is when the writers saw fit to give us glimpses of the Jennings world again. The in between was ignored. As little of it as we saw- the show heavily turned on all of Philip’s choices in S6 leading to Elizabeth finally seeing the light. It's very much like in S2 where we pick up when Elizabeth returns. If one of them isn't spying, the story isn't on. Paige deciding to spy really didn't matter. That was just a thing for the parents to react to, really. Surprisingly so, when you think about how her story sort of fades. We get three incidents all happening within a short period of time (the whole season takes place within just a couple of months) where she proves over and over how unsuited and unconnected she is to what she's doing. We've got these Russian culture lessons that are really about Elizabeth and Claudia. That's what they're leading up to, is that final split between them, so before that we're watching them think they're on the same page--and Claudia basically telling Elizabeth to be on her page and Elizabeth obediently doing that. Paige is just an excuse for the two of them to do that. But it's interesting how Paige has this bizarre (for her, I imagine) scene with her father and then just goes back to hanging with Elizabeth and Claudia and trying to be one of the girls with them and watching Gorbachev on the news and saying things like, "It's so weird he's here" and asking if things are over now that the Summit is over. (Maybe the summit was the thing that brought Paige into being actually on the job.) We in the audience know all this stuff swirling around Gorbachev. Claudia, Elizabeth, Philip, Oleg and Arkady know it. But Paige has no idea, has no opinion and nothing to offer. But it's weird that she seems to just pretend the sparring with Philip never happened. When he blows up over the church thing in S3 it leads to her not speaking him and him being apologetic. That wasn't going to happen here, but the only possible reaction we see to it at all from Paige is a some hesitation before going into Claudia's place the next time--and that might be because of the fight she had with her mother. She's still ostensibly all in and pinning her whole identity on this stuff, wanting to go with Elizabeth to Chicago and accepting Elizabeth's big order to apply for an internship. When the break finally comes it sort of reveals that Paige's real life was a potential boyfriend. He's the symbolic catalyst and the thing she uses to define herself as better than her mother. Another little parallel there to season 1 is that when the parents tell the kids they're separating Paige says it's all Elizabeth's fault and then accuses Philip of defending her. Just like she seems to be seeing things in S6. There two she claims to be taking Philip's side by calling her mother a whore (but really she's just using him as a prop to express her own anger at her own life) but then when they show up at the apartment she seems to see him as there to defend Elizabeth. She claims that she's not like Philip because she's "into" being a spy, but the opposite is true. She's never really into it even when she's doing it and Philip's into it even when he'd rather be out of it. 49 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Henry then went to boarding school. That was easier to accept. It was hardly going to ruin him. It just wasn’t what Philip had wanted. It seems interesting that Philip was threatened by the whole idea in S5 but he was the only one who was. Elizabeth was breezily acting like it wouldn't change things at all. But it turned out she let it ruin her relationship with Henry while Philip, who saw the danger, worked hard to hang on. Link to comment
Umbelina July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 (edited) I think Philip would have worked hard to hang on to Paige as well. After all, Henry's choice was going off to better his future, while Philip KNEW that Paige's choice would ruin her future. As I already said, he had the skills to do that, and the history with her to do that as well. So, no, I don't buy it. At all. They've constantly played Philip as pussy whipped and Elizabeth's wants are all that ever matter. This though? Would be standing up for his daughter, not himself. It would have been SO EASY for him too. There are so many ways he could have shown her that it wasn't cool. He could have talked to her about what the USSR was really like, for example. He knew from talking to that Russian couple. OR, he could have talked to her about any number of operations and how "something always happens." The best one would be about the wheat, since he already told her about that one. "Hey Paige, remember when we told you about our operation to stop the USA from starving our people to death by poisoning wheat? Yeah...well, as it turns out they were actually trying to make a better wheat to end starvation. Oh, and we killed some innocent gardener guy, and your mom had to sleep with this hunk that was cheating on her, and I had fuck this bitch who, hey! Just like you! thought I was a wimp, and anyway...that's what being a spy is." Or he could have told her about Martha. "Hey darling daughter of mine, remember when Stan's kid told you about that secretary's dad? Yeah, well, I conned her for years, and had to marry her, but I did save her life when the FBI realized she was going to be a traitor, the KGB was against it, but I made it happen. She's probably in some crumby little studio apartment in Moscow now. She doesn't speak any Russian, but they are going to teach her..." Or the Mail Robot Lady, or Annalise, or just pick one Philip. Share some spy stories with your future spy kid. Edited July 23, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Erin9 July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 Yeah- Philip could have shared specific stories with her. From a strictly realistic POV, he probably wasn’t supposed to. But- this being fiction.....I think realistically he’d have done his best to dissuade her. Whatever he thought might work. It’s just hard for me to say much about a chunk of the story they pointedly skipped over, that we never saw play out. I’d have more to say about what Philip should have said if we’d heard what he did say. Or what he thought she needed to be clear on. I go with he did his best at the time. There’s also the point of her job being somewhat different than theirs- though that was subject to change, as he knew. Paige already knew they killed people. She knew there were lies involved in how they got information. So, she knew some form of manipulation was involved. She didn’t fully get it though, of course. But, still, for most people, I think that would have done it. They obviously wanted us to see Elizabeth try to turn Paige into a spy and to see Paige confront Elizabeth about the reality of it all. So, we’re kind of stuck with that. I don’t buy Philip being passive about it either. I just can’t dig into what we never saw. I have no doubt he said something to her about his reservations. The conversation regarding sex and the job getting mixed was pretty well acknowledged by Elizabeth-eventually- when Paige asked. She danced around it, but she got there. She admitted it happened in the course of the job. She just didn’t admit she’d personally done it. Then- she kept telling Paige not to mix a real relationship and info gathering. It was all there. Paige just didn’t get it. Elizabeth couldn’t bring herself to be explicit enough. Which I get. And Paige probably didn’t really want to put the pieces together. I get that too. Way too much info on her parents. The way I see the spy issue is, one way or the other, Paige was about done. If it hadn’t been this intern, then something. Link to comment
Erin9 July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 On 7/20/2018 at 9:02 PM, Umbelina said: Another story I loved was Reagan being shot. I'm old enough, and educated enough, that I had the exact reaction to Haig's shocking speech as the USSR. Well, not quite the exact reaction, I didn't consider a coup in the shooting itself, but I was absolutely horrified at Haig declaring himself in charge. I was equally afraid of Haig, and what he might do. Actually that was the only reason I sort of hoped Reagan wasn't dead. Kinda. It was fascinating watching the USSR and KGB react though, and those reactions were believable. Funny now to think that when I watched the episode the idea that the Soviets suspected a Coup seemed so naive. Now, I realize that the USA is in no way secure, and that just about anything could happen to our "democracy" at any moment. In many ways, it makes all of their reactions so much more understandable. They were well aware how quickly power and governments can be wiped out. -- By the way, I'm reading some other spy novels right now, these by Daniel Silva (great reads) but one thing that is very interesting about them is that they focus on KGB spies. Since the "Gabriel Allon" books cover several decades, KGB ops are frequently mentioned, and the more recent novels focus on Putin and his gang of KGB "administrators" now, but other occur both before and after the fall of the soviet union. The leads are in Mossad, so they also have many opinions on other foreign spy agencies, including of course the CIA, and the leaky, incompetent mess that is the FBI. They try to avoid FBI involvement whenever possible since there is little finesse, and even less global understanding from that agency. (again through the decades) They're providing some very interesting insight. The Red Sparrow series is also amazing, and I especially like that a career CIA officer wrote those books. -- ETA adding a couple of others I loved all things William and all things Oleg. Of all the sex scenes on this show, I thought Oleg's and Tatiana's was the most "real." William as the jaded, tired spy was simply perfection from start to his sad end, from his awkward running to him sniping the telephone and bagging it after Elizabeth called Paige. He never lost me. I meant to respond to this awhile back. I loved In Control too. I have no recollection of the Reagan assassination attempt. So, for me, it was just a surprise that some guy named Haig was even involved. I did love the story though- the FBI trying to find out if the USSR was responsible, USSR paranoid about a coup. Everyone trying to find out just what was going on. It was interesting and tense to watch even though we knew the real outcome. I need to re-watch. I really liked the personal bits- Philip getting there wasn’t a coup and convincing Elizabeth to hold off on contacting Moscow about the information they’d heard from the bug because they’d jump to the same conclusion she did. It was a great example of how well Philip had adapted to America and one of the reasons he was such a good spy: he “got “ Americans pretty well. It’s also a good early example of him thinking for himself and not just following orders. And he pulled Elizabeth along too. Gaad was also interesting. You saw why he was in charge. Stan was already emotionally attached to Nina. And Gaad just wanted what information she had, regardless of the risk to her life. The assasination attempt was too big a thing. Stan references his memories of the Kennedy assassination to P/E. I don’t remember what they said- not much I think- but they weren’t even in the US yet. It would have been interesting to see a bit more done with that thread. They had to have made up a story of their own. Also- we saw P/E moving forward as a real couple. That was nice to see. Regarding Tatiana- I never thought she was that well developed. She wasn’t fascinating and compelling to watch like Nina anyway. William, I loved. Great character. Very much like Philip, but with a far sadder life. He understood the government was messed up, was burned out- yet was still patriotic and loyal enough to trudge forward as required. He even killed himself to avoid saying anything relevant. Would have loved to see more of him. Kate was an interesting character just based on what they didn’t do with her. Usually, when P/E had lots of one on one scenes with a character- William/Philip, Claudia/Elizabeth, etc you got why. I never did really see a why for Philip. She was a newbie spy and that worried him, but that’s about it. I’ve read some books by Silva. They are good. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 23, 2018 Author Share July 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Erin9 said: They obviously wanted us to see Elizabeth try to turn Paige into a spy and to see Paige confront Elizabeth about the reality of it all. So, we’re kind of stuck with that. I don’t buy Philip being passive about it either. I just can’t dig into what we never saw. I have no doubt he said something to her about his reservations. Yeah, that seems to sum up the problem for me. They wanted Elizabeth to train her, for Paige to eventually confront her about her lies. That required Philip to be not removing the wool from her eyes but be at the least committed to her figuring it out for herself. Of course, aeven if Philip wasn't in the picture at all it's hard to understand Paige having whatever view of spying she's supposed to have. She's clearly perfectly happy not really knowing what's going on, which parallels Elizabeth, but in Elizabeth's case we get how she's seeing the big picture. Paige really does seem to be approaching the whole thing like a slightly more nerve-wracking version of her church career and that's just weird. It's hard to imagine Henry not being more like a normal American kid at the time who knows that the KGB is a ruthless organization. Paige doesn't want to know any more than Martha did, but Philip wasn't telling Martha that everything she'd heard about the USSR was a lie with Martha just believing that. (Martha didn't want to know because the KGB was her worst case scenario.) If Paige was actually interested in life in the USSR she could certainly ask Philip and she'd know that he'd be honest with her. But then, she never showed any real interest in that and I think there are hints that she didn't want to hear anything he wanted to say because he was too honest even in the little things he said. I think the thing is that with Elizabeth they laid out her way of thinking very clearly because she was driving that train. Even if it was nuts, you understood it. With Philip the actions he takes that make sense don't relate as much to that. I can find things I think seem to explain stuff on the show, but they're not so clear as with Elizabeth. For instance, I think he was supposed to have lost a lot of confidence in his pov because of his experiences. Very often when he tries to do the right thing and thinks he's got the right idea it's a disaster or just doesn't much help and I think he really does literally start relying on Elizabeth because he's attracted to how sure she is. She's the only thing he's sure of by the end of S5 and I think that's true in S6 as well until Oleg finally lays out a worldview that makes sense to him. The showrunners always knew where this was going. They knew in the end Philip is going to put his country first, even risking his relationship with Elizabeth for it. They also knew that in the end, whatever everyone expected, that was the thing that would ultimately propel Philip's story--not Paige, not Henry, but Russia and his understanding of Elizabeth. 59 minutes ago, Erin9 said: Stan references his memories of the Kennedy assassination to P/E. I don’t remember what they said- not much I think- but they weren’t even in the US yet. It would have been interesting to see a bit more done with that thread. They had to have made up a story of their own. They say they didn't feel "safe" after that--so going right to the heart of how many Americans described their reactions to the assassination and also to one of the ways Philip and Elizabeth can't relate to Americans. I don't think they shared their "where were you" stories. Maybe it still felt weird to them to do that even if they'd come up with some because Americans all seem to have them. Link to comment
Umbelina July 23, 2018 Share July 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Erin9 said: It’s just hard for me to say much about a chunk of the story they pointedly skipped over, that we never saw play out. I’d have more to say about what Philip should have said if we’d heard what he did say. What we did see though, was the result. From the result it's obvious Philip did NOT tell her what being KGB really meant. We do know that he never, not for a moment, bought the lie that "Paige won't have to do the things we do, she'll be in an office somewhere." Why do we know that? We HEARD him say it, a few times. If Philip had put his back into it, just a little bit? Paige wouldn't have been so very obviously blind. As I said, the wheat story alone would have done it. She already knew about that operation, but only the lie version. Philip and Paige always had a close relationship, he could have taken her bowling, or skating, or to a movie, and then afterwards, in normal conversation, talked about himself as KGB. She would have listened. He knew how to get her in the mood to listen. While Elizabeth lied to her about sex, Philip would have answered her questions honestly. ALL he had to do was set up the conversational mood, which, given his skills, would have been as easy as driving to the store for milk. 2 hours ago, Erin9 said: Regarding Tatiana- I never thought she was that well developed. She wasn’t fascinating and compelling to watch like Nina anyway. She wasn't well developed. She was a fascinating character though, in so many ways, and had they kept the Residentura on screen in season 5 and 6? I really think she would have been as amazing as Arkady, if not Martha and Nina, who had, by far, the meatier roles to play. She was from a poor family and rose in the ranks, without using her looks or blow jobs. In a male world, she was respected, loyal, competent during the eighties and the cold war, and in the Soviet KGB system. The actress did a lot with very little, and instead of watching holes dug, and wheat grow, I would have loved to see her in charge at the Residentura and then advising the (male) new Resident later. 57 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: They say they didn't feel "safe" after that--so going right to the heart of how many Americans described their reactions to the assassination and also to one of the ways Philip and Elizabeth can't relate to Americans. I don't think they shared their "where were you" stories. Maybe it still felt weird to them to do that even if they'd come up with some because Americans all seem to have them. I would bet money that if they were real embedded spies, their stories about "where they were and what they felt" would have been memorized and rehearsed before they ever left the USSR. There were plenty of interviews with Americans and articles about how that was a "turning point" for so many. The KGB would have included it in their training. Link to comment
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