Lord Tywin Lannister: Rampant

[Pallas]

The master of masterful, the father of demons, the doer of "Done!", the lion, rampant.  

 

On another thread here I just wondered, "What doesn't play to Tywin's strengths?"   Since I see him as a tragic antagonist rather than a stock villain, I have to think his downfall will arise from some trait inherent in his character.  Something that makes Tywin, Tywin.   Some end he has unwittingly wrought with his two hands and all his force, all his will.  Something he has "Done!"

 

I think it has to lie within his family; this is a saga about Houses who carry within them their own plagues.  Where, as in most drama, the characters are posed crucial tests on which depend whether they live or die -- and more, even, than that.  Chorus from Peter Yarrow's antiwar song "The Great Mandala," with the final change rung after the last verse:

 

"Take your place on the great mandala

as it moves through your brief moment of time.

Win or lose now, you must choose now,

and if you lose, you're only losing your life.

 

"Take your place on the great mandala

as it moves through your brief moment of time.

Win or lose now, you must choose now,

and if you lose, you've only wasted your life."

 

I believe the defeat of Tywin will stand for something.  It would really, really thrill me if his defeat were accomplished without his death, so that he had to live with it, embittered and enfeebled.  But I doubt that.  The reason I want Tywin not to believe the truth about the incest is that even the most pragmatic, cynical, world-weary man of power has something to which he holds fast -- or put another way, something in which he does not want to believe.  Tywin may think it's the gods, or justice, or mercy.  I think it's something closer to home.  

 

Of course one could ask, Just how much more can any one or all of his children disappoint him?  He lives to be disappointed in his children!  That's what gets him out of bed in the morning: to face a new disappointment in his children!  They are about the only disappointment that still surprises him, just a little.  The world is safely ground under his heel but his children are the burr under his saddle.  

 

So if Tywin is to be tested, what is or was the test?  If his children, is it Jaime and Cersei, or is it Tyrion?  I suppose I can see how ultimately, Tyrion was always the test.  The gods withheld their judgment when Tywin spared him, at birth -- the last time he spared Tyrion anything, except his allowance.  But what seems clear is that Tywin has altogether failed to see that it is Tyrion who is his heir, Tyrion the son who inherited the quality Tywin claims to value most in rulers: wisdom.  And wasn't it, the wisdom to judge character, and specifically, the wisdom to know who you can trust?

 

If Jaime and Cersei had wanted to please their father more than anything, they wouldn't have....(insert Linked-In and facebook pages for Jaime, Cersei and Jaime & Cersei). But whenever Tyrion was at least given a task to fulfill, he seems always to have sought to do his utmost.  He saved King's Landing, his family and the Throne for Tywin to receive the credit, and rule.  Yet it seems what Tywin saw was (1) Dwarf, (2) Dwarf, (3) Dwarf, (4) Dwarf who killed his wife, (5) Dwarf who sleeps with whores and not his sister: dwarf who sullied the chambers of the once-and-future Hand of the King, with whores.  

 

All right.  Tyrion was the test.  This trial is where all the streams of fate will run together, for Tywin.  Tyrion was the test; it is Tywin who is on trial for his life.

[WhiteStumbler]

Pallas: Great post! If I follow your thinking, then the guilty verdict and death of Tyrion will cause the downfall of Tywin? Or does Tyrion survive, but finds some way to wreak (NOT "Reek"!) havoc with his father's plans? Or does Tyrion actually kill Tywin somehow from jail?

 

Random Tywin thought: He sat down on the Iron Throne like he was slipping into a bespoke suit hand-tailored in Qarth to his exact measurements. He looked made to sit there, the first character we have seen on the Throne who looked utterly himself there.

[stillshimpy]

The reason I want Tywin not to believe the truth about the incest is that even the most pragmatic, cynical, world-weary man of power has something to which he holds fast -- or put another way, something in which he does not want to believe.  Tywin may think it's the gods, or justice, or mercy.  I think it's something closer to home.

 

Pallas, I know we've been debating this for years at this point, but I thought of you last night when Tywin said, "You will father children with the last name of Lannister" because...he knows, Pallas  I think it might actually have been one of the things that has contributed to the slow breaking of Tywin Lannister.  

 

He is cynical and he is world-weary, but I think he thought this long battle had been for something.  This long battle of wills with his own children, primarily Jaime. But Tywin knows those children aren't Baratheons and he's allowing this farce of a trial to go through its paces, even though he has to know that Tryion isn't actually guilty. 

 

I think Tywin is just weary at this stage .  When he talked to Arya about Jaime, it was one of the few times the mask slipped and showed any kind of sadness or regret.  I think Tywin comes closest to liking Tommen out of his grandchildren and had made his peace with Tommen as his legacy, but the way Charles Dance played that scene with Tywin and Jaime was really quite sad, I thought.  

 

That's as close to eager as I think we'll ever be allowed to see Tywin, or as close to "glad" and it's particularly going to suck if Jaime dies in a trial by combat, because I think that's as close to getting what he actually wanted as Tywin has come in at least a decade, if not more.  He wanted to be proud of Jaime's son and feel like it had all been for something.  I think he was almost ready to settle for being proud of Tommen, who seems a sweet kid, but then Jaime gave him one more chance to hope that he'd be able to take some pride in Jaime's son carrying on the Lannister name.  

 

But I do think Tywin knows Jaime's son sits on the Iron Throne.  Tywin is not Jon Arryn.  It would not have escaped his notice that all Baratheons have dark hair.  

Edited May 12, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

Random Tywin thought: He sat down on the Iron Throne like he was slipping into a bespoke suit hand-tailored in Qarth to his exact measurements. He looked made to sit there, the first character we have seen on the Throne who looked utterly himself there.

 

To this point: I was on another forum on PTV recently, can't remember which one, and someone posted that the other show reminded them of Game of Thrones, "Where the King has three children and they all have different gifts, but he can't really appreciate them for what they are, he only sees what they're not" (I'm paraphrasing).  Basically, other people take for granted that Tywin is the King!  He certainly is the only character walking around with that attitude.  

 

But in fact I think it is one of Tywin's great regrets that he, personally, could never be King.  He thought it would be alright if one of his children or grandchildren (or several of them, as it turns out) got to the Iron Throne, but he could never get there.  Timing wasn't right.  It was Robert's war, and Robert would never give the Throne over to anyone, least of all Tywin.  Tywin's never had popular support either (as someone like, say, Renley would have).  Tywin has probably been the smartest, most capable, most well-rounded All-Star Lannister in several generations.  He had the fortune, the name, the kingdom, the ships, the looks, the intelligence, the education, the breeding.  He was/is a great warrior and a great diplomat (or at least, negotiator) and a great strategist.  And he could never be King!  And then he watched all his kids, who he thought would be king in his stead, be fu*k-ups, one by one.  One after the other, all fu*k-ups in his view.  I think whatever's cracked within Tywin has a lot to do with this long-term, irresolvable frustration.

[RadiantAerynSun]

Wow never thought anyone would make me feel bad for Not!King Tywin. But, yeah.

[Pallas]

If I follow your thinking, then the guilty verdict and death of Tyrion will cause the downfall of Tywin? Or does Tyrion survive, but finds some way to wreak (NOT "Reek"!) havoc with his father's plans? Or does Tyrion actually kill Tywin somehow from jail?

 

The very fact of the trial -- Tywin's not only giving assent to it, but acting as its impresario, staging it like P.T. fucking Barnum -- is what will doom him, somehow.  By refusing to see Tyrion for what he is, he has finally forced Tyrion to renounce him, absolutely.  He has made an enemy of Tyrion.  All Tyrion's intelligence and talents will be focused on more than survival: he will be focused on defeating Tywin.  

 

Tyrion-his-enemy is entirely Tywin's creation, and I think it will ruin him.  I have no idea how.  Some wild card, perhaps, like the wildfire.  I think the challenge may only be a feint -- Tyrion will want to win by his wits.

[stillshimpy]

The very fact of the trial -- Tywin's not only giving assent to it, but acting as its impresario, staging it like P.T. fucking Barnum -- is what will doom him, somehow.

 

I also feel like the show gave us a giant hint as to why Tywin was willing to participate in the railroading of Tyrion.  He didn't even hesitate for a nanosecond to jump on Jaime's offer.  I think it's possible that Tywin knew that Jaime wouldn't stand by and let Cersei have Tyrion killed to soothe her grief and rage.  He'd previously tried to have Jaime leave the Kingsguard because of his injury.  

 

I don't know if that's even possible, but Tywin is a schemer and it seems that he might have figured out how to make lemonade out of the huge stroke of fortune he was handed.  Joffrey was going to become a problem for Tywin after marriage.  Tywin's power over Joffrey was only absolute as long as Joffrey was afraid of him, but of course the problem with Joffrey was he truly was just a vicious person. Despite what Ramsay would have us believe, it's hard to control a vicious dog.  

 

So I don't know, a part of me still thinks that Tywin was in on this whole plot.  He's certainly got things lined up in a way that benefits him more.  Tommen is a lapdog compared to Joffrey.  He's sweet, likes animals, is still little better than a child and Tywin is winning him over  Score one for Tywin.  Tyrion being on trial has very handily (heh) provided Tywin with his preferred heir again, and if it in any way surprised him, Tywin covered that entirely.  

 

Then it looked as if he was going to be rid of the burr under his saddle, Tyrion, who wouldn't do as he was told.  Except that manifested itself again and will likely upset Tywin's apple cart again. 

 

The entire asinine Affair of the Necklace plot is a big enough mess without anything else being added to it, but the final straw in the "Oh are you just fucking kidding me with this, Show?"  was the necklace being produced at the trial, because of course Littlefinger threw it onto Dontos's body. As one does as a master manipulator and schemer: be sure to leave behind evidence, sure to be found. 

 

It would serve Tywin right, even if he didn't orchestrate all of this, if his farce of a trial ended up costing him Jaime, Cersei threw herself off the Red Keep (because for real, what's left for her either?) and then Tywin was left with only Tyrion out of his children, by season's end. 

Edited May 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I also feel like the show gave us a giant hint as to why Tywin was willing to participate in the railroading of Tyrion.  He didn't even hesitate for a nanosecond to jump on Jaime's offer.  -- stillshimpy  

 

"Done." 

 

A great moment, as you noted Sunday night, shimpy, just quoting the word.  Tywin showed even less hesitation accepting Jaime's offer than he did accepting Tommen's reign.  

 

I think he wasn't involved in the assassination, but had a good CEO's ability to instantly shrug off the loss and pursue the gain.  If loss it was to him, in any way.  His pride, probably, at any plot successfully carried off right under his nose; at Sansa's successfully escaping, even after he called for her capture.  But I agree that he quickly conceived of how to play all three of his children off against each other, toward a decisive checkmate: Cersei demurely acquiescing to the marriage with Loras and soon off to tend High Garden; Jaime out of the Guard and installed at Casterly Rock; Tyrion banished to a martial/monastic order, facing who cares what, up at the Wall.  Meanwhile, Tywin left alone at last in King's Landing, the steely Hand manipulating his very own little king.

 

For what remained of the hour, before the bells tolled to end the recess, Tywin finally had it all his way.  Then the damned whore overplayed her part, and that maudlin grotesque showed his true colors.  I wouldn't be surprised if Tywin now blamed Cersei for Shae's performance, and maybe with good reason. I also wouldn't be surprised if Tywin spent some time considering the proper way to have Shae executed in front of Tyrion...or if it was unseemly to repeat himself. 

[RedheadZombie]

How long has Tywin known about Cersei and Jaime's incestuous relationship?  He seems to know everything, but surely he considers incest taboo.  It was also very dangerous to pass off the children as Robert's.  All his children seem to obey him, so it seems like he could have controlled this situation a little better.

 

I like that Tywin is not cartoon villain.  He's surprised me a couple of times.  First, he stared down the gigglers at Tyrion's wedding when he couldn't reach to place the cloak on Sansa.  I thought Tywin would get a kick out of seeing his son humiliated.  He also intervened that night when Tyrion drunkenly threatened to castrate Joffrey.  Tywin was this close to getting rid of him without the guilt of orchestrating the plan.

[arry the orphan]

I don't see Tywin as a villain at all. Yes, his soldiers comitted atrocities in the war and yes he orchestrated the Red Wedding, but Tywin is first and foremost a pragmatist. The Red Wedding was the easiest way for him to win the war (with the least amount of death). And we have seen Stark soldiers comitting atrocities as well (Brienne killed some of them and Robb executed Lord Karstark). Thats perhaps the most striking difference between Tywin and Robb. Tywin did not treat his prisoners worse than Robb (Gendry, Arya in Harrenhal, while Tywin was there), but while Robb forbade Lord Bolton to flay and torture his prisoners, Tywin let the Mountain torture his. Thats how Tywin got the loyalty of the monsters sworn to him, while Robb's monsters turned against him.

 

Tywin even named Tyrion acting Hand of the King. He said that he always believed that Tyrion is a stunted little fool, but his escape from the Vale, his alliance with the Mountain clans and his correct analysis about the state of the war after Robb took Jaime prisoner impressed Tywin enough to give him a chance to proof himself. And I think Tywin was really trying to reward him with Sansa Stark as a wife and the position of Master of Coin. Knowing the financial situation of the realm Tywin gave this job to the smartest man he knew (and removed Littlefinger from that position).

Edited June 5, 2014 by arry the orphan

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Tywin did not treat his prisoners worse than Robb (Gendry, Arya in Harrenhal, while Tywin was there), but while Robb forbade Lord Bolton to flay and torture his prisoners, Tywin let the Mountain torture his. Thats how Tywin got the loyalty of the monsters sworn to him, while Robb's monsters turned against him.

 

wow... good point.

[RedheadZombie]

I definitely see him as a villain, just a very complicated one.  He seems to love no one.  I know he seems traumatized by his wife's death, but that can simply be his way of torturing Tyrion.  He doesn't seem to care for his children or grandchildren beyond what he can achieve through them.  I think he would walk over any one of them.  I can easily seeing him offing the whole family if he thought it would bring him the throne.  It would be interesting to show his soft spot - if he had one.  Good Lord, let him be affectionate to a dog, that's all I would need.

 

I understand that the whole story revolves around people grasping for the throne.  The thing is, the Lannisters are probably the only family who have no rights to it.  That's what irritates me.  Prior to starting the show, I thought the Lannisters were the star family, and the ones who should be rooted for.  How wrong I was.  I just need to see them slapped down a little.  Joffrey's death didn't work for me because they went on with hardly a whimper, and the only good Lannister is being punished for it.