House Stark: Before Winter Comes The Fall

[stillshimpy]

Keeping Seven Kingdoms Undertakers Busy.  

I had the hardest time figuring out what to know this poor thread. 

The Runners up were:  Ned's the head of the family .  

Poor Wedding Planners 

Now Comprised of Orphans, Cripples and the Odd Bastard.  

Edited April 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Okay, so the Starks are even the most difficult house for me to write about, just in general.  I feel like the story really has been extra merciless to the Starks.  That's almost certainly because it absolutely has been merciless as hell. 

Benjen is still missing somewhere in the North and although long ago and far away I did say that I thought he might come back as a Zomboni, I no longer think that.  For one thing, he's been gone from the story for so long, I don't think it would have the necessary dramatic impact on the audience and the Starks have been through so much, it would just be overkill to have Uncle Zombie show up.  

I think it's either going to turn out that the Cannibals ate him long ago, and they'll tell poor Jon Snow that with extra lurid details, or it's possible that Bran Stark will find his Uncle at long last.  Admittedly, if he does, it will almost certainly be just in time to watch the poor man die gruesomely, because that's how this show rolls.  

Arya is a budding serial killer, despite still being a little girl. Sansa's married off to a Lannister and mostly has her broken dreams and shattered ideals for companions.  Best she can hope for is that someone within King's Landing will get her to somewhere safe (although gods know where that might be in this uplifting tale) and hopefully she'll finally have the wits to actually go with whoever sincerely tries to save her.   

Then there's Jon Snow, but he's more Crow than Stark now. 

Oh, and the forgotten, feral-boy Rickon, who will hopefully be safe in Osha's company, but only if he plans on a name change since the Starks are not a lucky group.  Oh jeez, I just realized I didn't even speculate on what might happen for them.  This might be because I'm afraid to guess.  Whatever it is?  It will likely be bad.  

Edited April 13, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I believe that the Starks are not only the moral core of the story, but its spine.  They and what they stand for, are what the saga's about.  I believe the story may end with the "200 swords" of the Iron Thone's all being melted by dragonfire, and all other swords metaphorically sheathed.  So the melting of Ned's sword -- like the death of Ned himself -- was but the solemn first act of a story about endurance, even resurrection.  In the end, I believe, the North and the Starks and their greater connection with their environment and their people will prevail.  The values of the Starks will prove to be what doomed Ned, individually, but save his world. 

And those values are not what Jaime or even perhaps Ned believed them to be: a rigid code of honor, that makes no exceptions for human error or compassion. Ned did die in part because he was obstinate about a number of things, but mostly he died because he (1) warned Cersei, so that she could save herself and her children, (2) refused to tell his dying friend the King that he had no true heirs, again saving Cersei and her children; (3) agreed to a show trial and rigged verdict in order to save his own children.  

That imperative for which he died also led him to have a hand in saving the baby Daenarys and, I think, the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, both of whom seem likely to play a large role in saving the world.  He taught Bran not to look away, and Bran is now a seer, as obstinate as Ned in following a stony path, because he believes it matters.  He taught his children that they were part of something larger than themselves, part of a world and a people, a history and a future -- all greater than they alone.  What that might be and what it means is, I think, what all the remaining protagonists and their world have yet to learn.  

[stillshimpy]

Bran's actions are the most selfless within the story.  Whatever that vision meant, it's at least a little impressive that a 12-year-old saw all of that and then calmly said, "I know where we need to go" and the rest of that thought wasn't, "...anywhere but North, because dayum, no thank you, gods of fate and fuckery.  I am going to Dornish Land.  Meet whatever passes for Mickey Mouse in this godforsaken world.  Eat a corn dog.  Actually, skip that, it would be an actual dog in this world.  Clearly we all are doooooommmmmmmeeed so get me the Seven Hells out of here, Hodor."  

Anyway, I was just reading the linked to episode reactions from out thread after the Red Wedding and stumbled across what I wrote in hoping for some Stark revenge on some Lanniester Ass: 

I've changed my mind about one thing.  I hope Tywin Lannister meets up with a terrible end.  I hope Robb Stark's Zombie corpse trundles right into the Throne room and grinds him into Nasty Soulless Powder.  Actually, forget that. I hope that Talisa Stark's Zombie Corpse corners them all and one by one, makes them sing that stupid song as she kills them.

Good plan, last year Me! 

[gingerella]

Pallas, I fucking love your post, man...LOVE!

Edited April 19, 2014 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

I agree, that's a great post, Pallas.  As usual I love that you have such faith in the better natures and guides of men winning out.  I hope you're right.  I hope the sacrifice of the Starks -- because they really have dropped like flies -- ends up meaning something within the story.  Having said that: 

 

 

I believe that the Starks are not only the moral core of the story, but its spine.

I think you're right, but I actually think this is one of those stories where that is a liability, rather than something that is rewarded, even if there have been sacrifices aplenty. 

I actually assume poor Rickon is going to die, because I don't think there will be anyone left to carry on the Stark name.  I don't know what has become of Benjen.  I treasure a small hope that that is where Bran is headed, to encounter his uncle.  I just assume that Rickon will die because I doubt the Starks will end up with an heir at all.  Winterfell has fallen for good (and man, the credits like to stick that to us every stinkin' episode) and it fell, in part, because of Ned Stark's honor.  

Just a small part of that was raising Theon to be as much of a member of the family as he was.  He resented that he wasn't more, but the Starks saw him as being one of them to the extent that they trusted him too much.  

If there is a backbone of morality and ethics and it is the Starks then I think Bran represents that's more than anything with his broken back. 

I don't know, I could be wrong and you and I have traded views on this for three years, Pallas.  I always, always back the good guys.  I am a sucker for them, but I do think that this is not the type of story that has any reward in place for that.  Last year before the premiere, before I even knew about the wholesale Wedding Slaughter of Starks, I bumped into a neighbor while I was taking out the recycling.  She didn't watch Game of Thrones, but asked if I did and if I would recommend it, because it "looked dark" and she wasn't sure it would be for her. 

I told her that it was dark, violent.  Lots of nudity, but it was an intriguing story...then I hesitated and said, "But it isn't the type of story where...anything good happens, really.  There's hardly anything that will make you feel...happy, really."  and of course, she asked why I watched it then.  I told her it was because it was interesting and that it broke all the stories rules I'm used to, so it was unpredictable. 

I do sort of wonder something, the Starks are damned near eliminated when it comes to producing an heir.  There is Rickon, but he's a little kid and in this story, he's likely to end up on Brunch table as the main course.  Bran is likely out of the heir making business entirely and that would be the case even if he wasn't doggedly marching towards what appears to be his own sacrificial end in the world where there will almost certainly be no more Starks.  

But then, doesn't that really seem to be the case for all the leading families we've met?  The Baratheons are all but gone, as Stannis is unlikely to produce a male heir (I think he sold that chance for a smoke baby).   None of the Baratheons at King's Landing are actually Baratheons.  Joffrey died without an heir.  I'm assuming that Tommen is unlikely to produce a bunch of kids, because I've been watching this show for a while.  If he's a half-way decent human being, he's boned in a completely different sense than "Congratulations, Dad" might suggest.  

The main Lannisters that we know are also not in the business of making heirs.  The Tullys, similarly only have "have fun in the dungeon" Edmure.  

I think this is a story about the death and rebirth of a world into an entirely different shape.  Every family I can name has something deeply screwed up going on with their hopes or chances of producing a real "legitimate" heir.  It's like when Ned died, the rule book died with him.  All the codes, all the rules, all the things they thought to be important. 

Edited April 19, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Thank you, gingerella, and thank you shimpy: what a wonderful post.  Thinking about it, I'm not sure we're that far apart.  

I think this is a story about the death and rebirth of a world into an entirely different shape.  Every family I can name has something deeply screwed up going on with their hopes or chances of producing a real "legitimate" heir.  It's like when Ned died, the rule book died with him.  All the codes, all the rules, all the things they thought to be important.

 

Beautifully put, and I agree. I think this story is about the death of feudalism; it is a plague on all the Houses: House Stark included, as it once stood.  I even think it's possible that the story may end with all living animals swept off their world -- a sternly cautionary tale on a par with On the Beach. Reader/viewer beware, and repent. A dystopia to make the point, Love your world, or lose it; cooperate with one another and all who share your world, or die. Actually I think that's the theme, whether or not the creator sacrifices his fictional world to make his point, or not.  

But I tend more to believe that the dystopia will end before the last chapter. That we'll see signs of another world coming into being. And I believe that what hope will remain in the end will be brought about by the Starks.  Starks who may indeed not leave any of their name (yo, you in the black!). But the survival of the House itself won't be the point: this will be a post-House world.  A world built more on the model of the Watch, where family allegiance and status are allegedly left behind in the name of common effort, but this time, for real and with fucking.  

What will enable the world to survive will be the efforts of the Starks, doing what the Starks really do best: adapt.  Adapt, despite their well-earned reputation for being inflexible and dogmatic.  Adapt, despite everything they otherwise make a point of saying, and their well-earned reputation for speaking the truth.  Adapt, because that is what they do on those rare occasions when it matters.  Screw "all the rules and the codes and everything they thought was important."  Save the vulnerable. Help those who will always need help.  Adapt and take responsibility for others, as their own.  

Ned spelled that out as the duty of the Lords of Winterfell, and I think his heirs will expand that concept to include more than Winterfell, more than the North. 

[gingerella]

But I tend more to believe that the dystopia will end before the last chapter. That we'll see signs of another world coming into being. And I believe that what hope will remain in the end will be brought about by the Starks.

 

Pallas, I feel that if this is the endgame of A Story, I'd like very much to see that Winterfell white tree (the one they pray to in the North) survive along with the other one's that have the faces on them - like the one Bran was communing with last week.  I feel like those trees need to survive in order for the Stark's to survive and adapt into whatever awaits them once Winter finally shows up.  For me, those trees are rooted, no pun intended, in whether or not the people of the North, and the Stark's, survive this long, dark Winter, regardless of what society looks like once Spring comes again.

[abelard]

In a rewatch, I listened more closely to the Reed girl's warning to Bran that if he wargs too much (over-wargs?), he will "forget everything" -- his brothers and father and mother, and Winterfell, and he'll lose himself.  "And if we lose you, we'll lose everything."  WHAT IN THE HELL IS BRAN SUPPOSED TO DO ABOUT EVERYTHING???  I always thought and still do that he's meant to warg one of Dany's dragons in the Final Battle against the WW, but clearly he's supposed to do THINGS between now and then!!!!!!  But...what??????

[stillshimpy]

I don't know, this story doesn't seem to follow a typical structure.  It's an exceptionally cynical tale, in a lot of ways, that almost seems to be scolding people for romanticized notions of past social structures.  In this story, in the end, Ned Stark sacrificed everything he valued in word, action, deed and life because it might be better for his children.

 

Ned Stark stood there and admitted to being a traitor, of committing treason.  This is the dude who got to the throne room before Robert Baratheon and didn't even attempt to claim it for himself and he stood in what's supposed to be a sacred place and said he committed treason against that same man.  The person who was likely more like a brother to him than his own brother.   

It turned out that Joffrey was going to have Ned's head cut off no matter what he said and the two people Ned was doing that for had to watch as their father's head was cut off and people cheered the death of a traitor. 

This is not A Tale of Two Cities type of death.  There isn't some morality play being enacted, as far as I can tell.  If the story is telling us anything it's more like the Weird Al Yankovic song Everything You Know is Wrong than a true Dystopian tale.  It's more like the story is saying every warm, fuzzy, kind and decent impulse of goodness that you have?  That's the very thing that will likely ruin your entire life and eventually the world. 

Now, I don't believe that as a life philosophy for a second and I'm not going to because Martin has some strange family issues (or whatever else he is working out on the page that then ends up on our screen, eventually) or even if he's trying to make some completely pointed and targeted statement about what will happen to us if we don't shape up as a world.  I think if anything he might be saying "Look what's been happening to us all along, that we've been in a lot of denial about historically."  Or as one comedian put it about aliens sending out explorers into space, "Bye! Have fun! Stay away from the blue and white planet, they pee in their drinking water!" 

 

 

WHAT IN THE HELL IS BRAN SUPPOSED TO DO ABOUT EVERYTHING???  I always thought and still do that he's meant to warg one of Dany's dragons in the Final Battle against the WW, but clearly he's supposed to do THINGS between now and then!!!!!!  But...what?????

What if it turns out that since Bran is clearly a Warg with a self sacrificing bent, who can also see the future, that the White Walkers really are just warging the crap out of a bunch of dead things who wouldn't otherwise have self direction and that instead of some "He'll make the dragons do his bidding" it is rather, "Bran can control the army of the dead and tell them to lay the fuck down while everyone else gets busy trying to kill the actual White Walkers"?

Edited April 20, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

instead of some "He'll make the dragons do his bidding" it is rather, "Bran can control the army of the dead and tell them to lay the fuck down while everyone else gets busy trying to kill the actual White Walkers"?

 

Hmmm, I never considered that maybe zombonis can be warged.  Are they like animals that way?  Or maybe, all wargs can warg animals, but only Warg!Bran can warg the WW's dead army -- that is, Bran's gift is that he can warg living things *and* zombies?  That *would* be cool, but it still feels like a lot is supposed to happen with him between now and the Final Battle (whatever form that takes), and it's just not clear at all.  But then, as you say, this story is sort of a story *about* subverting our expectations, so best not to have too many of those (expectations, that is). 

[Pallas]

I don't know if Bran's nascent ability to warg humans is the key to his role, but I trust Jojen when he says it is another thing that no one else can do.  Now, that doesn't meant I think Bran can or will stare Mance, Craster and (eventually) Stannis in the eye and say, "Unite. Be brothers.  It's really for the best," but...something.  

Melisandre sees her visions in the fire, darkly.  Perhaps Bran, the summer's child, needs to see his visions in the winter ice, as far north as one can go.

I'd like very much to see that Winterfell white tree (the one they pray to in the North) survive along with the other one's that have the faces on them - like the one Bran was communing with last week.  I feel like those trees need to survive in order for the Stark's to survive and adapt into whatever awaits them once Winter finally shows up.  -- gingerella

I agree: the trees represent life and renewed life, adaptive life, in the North. If there's any deity I honor in this story, it's them.  

ETA:  Corrected attribution of the quote.  Apologies to gingerella and thanks to abelard for pointing it out!  Long week. Too much celebrating Joffrey's death.  

Edited April 21, 2014 by Pallas

[abelard]

Oh, Pallas, thanks but I'm pretty sure that's gingerella you're quoting above.

Agreeing with gingerella, I do think the white trees with the faces carved (? or, naturally appearing?) in them are the most sacred entities in the whole story.  The trees are way better than the Lord of Light/Red God, way better than the Seven (what did the 7 ever do for Starks?  Nuthin', that's what), way better than the Dead God (isn't that what the Greyjoys worship).  The God of Death, I won't pass judgement on yet - if he's Syrio's god, then I guess I endorse him.  

The trees "speak" to Bran like the Red God "speaks" to Melisandre and the trees don't call for human sacrifice.  Or at least, they don't call for brutal, merciless, gratuitous violence.  Though if I think of it, Ned cleaned his beheading sword (the same sword melted down) at the Godswood (where the white tree is in Winterfell -- isn't that what that place was called?), and Maester Luwin chose to die there, so maybe there is something about human blood nourishing the trees.  But even then, it seems like the trees are more interested in cleansing and giving rest to the dying/dead, not in requiring death.  

I brought this up on TwoP, but I'll quickly repeat here: I think the white tree that Sansa is praying at in KL is actually just a stump, a chopped-down holy/sacred tree.  Maybe when the 7 were introduced as the New Gods, KL was one of those places that converted right away (makes sense if the 7 were Valeryian gods), and just chopped all the Old Gods' trees down, whereas the North never really converted at all, or at best just sorta half-assedly converted, and left the trees standing.  Anyway, if Sansa is praying to a stump, I find that unbelievably poignant and sad. 

Edited April 20, 2014 by abelard

[Pallas]

Anyway, if Sansa is praying to a stump, I find that unbelievably poignant and sad. 

 

So true, abelard.  As you imply: Sansa is praying to a beheaded tree.  

 

Yet another thing I'd forgotten: in Benjen's final scene with Jon, at the top of the Wall, he tells Jon that Jon may not accompany him on his sortie the next day, because Jon is not yet a Ranger.  "All things in good time," he says (paraphrasing).  "You must earn it." And then, he too tells Jon, "We'll speak when I return."  Gah!

 

What I love about Bran's journey North now is how Starkian it is.  A mission undertaken because it is right; a mission that is right because he believes it benefits the world.  Undertaken not only at great personal cost, but also involving the pain of separation and/or the risk of death for those closest to him: Rickon, Osha, Hodor, the Reeds, Summer. Bran needed to act as a leader: to believe in his mission, and to inspire and direct others to play their parts.  He has become the Lord of Winterfell, and I believe this new assurance came upon him directly after Robb's death.  When he first warged Hodor, ordered Rickon and Osha away, and set his sights beyond the Wall.  My feeling is that Jojen is right: if Bran can remain true to the self he has become, he will have enormous import in the battle to come, and maybe even in the peace that may follow.  

 

Whether he'll be alive to see it, or just "see" it before he dies, is another matter. 

[stillshimpy]

"You must earn it." And then, he too tells Jon, "We'll speak when I return."  Gah!

 

This seems to be story code for "I'm off to perish, probably horribly, see you in another life!"  Actually, any kind of formal parting tends to be the kiss of death, or at least isolation.  

 

It's part of the reason I have some hope that Arya and Sansa will eventually see one another again, they had no formal leave taking of the other.  

 

Now, Jon and Bran did, both from two sides.  It's just they never get to have an actual exchange when they do.   Jon said goodbye to a comatose Bran -- with Catelyn's vibes of miserable, seething hate diffusing in the air around them like the world's worst air freshener -- and of course, Bran did not realize he was being left, as he was insensible. 

 

This time, Jon was the one who had no idea he was being left and that Bran was saying a goodbye that Jon couldn't participate in.  I actually oddly liked that story device.  Jojen was right, Jon would never have allowed Bran to go North.  He's been there and knows it is no place for someone who can't even walk, let alone run from the many dangers.  There would have been no talking Jon into it either, partially because that would have been the first time Jon would have seen Bran-the-broken.  The last time he and Bran had any sort of mutual contact, Bran was the mountain goat who clambered up towers. 

 

It would have been nigh on impossible for Bran to get Jon to accept, "I have to do this" because the Starkian way isn't just about sacrifice for the greater good, it's also about doing that to protect others.  Bran would never have been able to convince Jon that, in this instance, it was Bran's turn to do the protecting. 

 

Also, yes, Sansa appears to pray to a stump, but the old gods are worshipped in the capital.  Baelor the blessed, etc.  Joffrey and Margaery were married in the same sort of ceremony Robb and Talisa were.  

[Snowblack]

Also, yes, Sansa appears to pray to a stump, but the old gods are worshipped in the capital.  Baelor the blessed, etc.  Joffrey and Margaery were married in the same sort of ceremony Robb and Talisa were.  

 

I don't think that's the case.  I think all of the weddings we have seen are "new gods" weddings.  I think all but the northerners have given up the old gods in favor of the new.  I see the religious landscape as loosely based on English history with completely different religious belief systems sweeping the land.  The northerners, much like the people in northern England (and Germanic lands) held on to druidic, nature-based religion, even in the face of attempted conquest by pantheists (the seven new gods) from across the sea, in the form of both Romans and the Vikings before them.  And now you have multiple monotheistic religions that have taken hold across the sea, and its adherents are making their ways across to Westeros.  You have Jaqen Hgar's Red God, Melisandre and Thoros' Lord of Light, and Syrio Forel's God of Death.  These three may all be one and the same or variations on the same basic god (like Judaism, Islam and Christianity).  Plus there's the Drowned God of the Greyjoys, although we don't know if he is the sole god or one of a pantheon.

 

So we have the Starks adhering to the same Old Gods as the Wildlings with their ancient trees, and just about everyone else going to the sept and worshiping The Seven.  It's interesting that Robb chose to get married in the new religion.  I wonder how much of a betrayal of his family that was.  Catlyn clearly followed the new gods, based on her discomfort when speaking to Ned in the God's Wood, so I guess it wasn't that big a deal to marry across religions.  Unlike with the Lord of Light, there doesn't seem to be a problem with invoking both "the old gods and the new."     

 

I'm interested to see whether Sansa finds an intact Gods Wood tree in the Vale.  Somehow, I think she's going to be out of luck.

[stillshimpy]

I think it's also possible that I don't know which ones are old and which ones are new.  Are the 7 new, or old?  I always think of the 7 being old.  

[abelard]

shimpy, as I understand it, the 7 Gods are the "new gods."  The trees and whatever gods they represent are the "old gods."  I think the Starks, under Ned and Cat Stark, anyway, effectuated a kind of hybridity approach: "by the old gods and the new."  Arya said this to Syrio, and Cat vowed her last vow, to this combination of gods, the old and the new.  Cat grew up in the South, in the Riverlands (right?), worshipping the 7 (new gods), but when she married Ned and moved to Winterfell, she saw it's all pretty much the old gods up there, so I think she and Ned sort of told their family they worship all the old ones and the new ones, like Jewish-Christian families celebrate Hannukah and Christmas.  

 

Pallas I really love the thought of Bran being the new Lord of Winterfell and acting like it.  But as you say, it's not really acting like the "Lord of Winterfell" so much as making decisions like a Stark.  Starks do What Is Right, with no thought to their own personal safety.  BUT that certainty was Ned's downfall and I feel like Sansa and Arya have stayed safe (if you can call it that - have stayed Not Dead) by finally figuring out the lesson Syrio tried to tell Arya: people lie, they deceive, and you had best be able to deal with those deceptions and even participate in them or parry them with your own.  Sansa took a pretty good tack of just claiming loyalty to Joffrey and calling her father a traitor every time she was questioned, and Arya has become a fairly deft liar out in the wild.  So I'm not sure what that says about the Stark Project overall.  Personally, I don't need Starkness to be unambiguous.  It would be interesting if Bran upheld the Starkian qualities of self-sacrifice and protecting the greater good, and if Arya became more of a Flaming Sword of Righteous Vengeance (I think I sort of mean that literally).  Not that I think Ned would endorse a lifetime of vengeance killing for Arya, but what did he ride out against the Targeryens for, if not vengeance for his father, his brother, his sister (or rather, to "save" his sister)?  The Starks know something about vengeance, I gather. 

[Pallas]

Yes, I also think the Seven Gods are the "new gods," the Established Church, now worshiped everywhere but the North.  Where the Seven are human archetypes (Crone, etc.), the Old Gods seem to be archetypes drawn from nature.  The Starks were a mixed marriage.  Cat said early in the first season that she had been raised to worship the New, while Ned was raised to honor the Old.  The kids were raised in both traditions. (I think Baelor was either the prophet of the New Gods or the King who first converted: I've always believed Ned found it a smidge easier to swear his false vow by Baelor, at the seat of Baelor, a place sacred to the new gods only.  On the other hand, it's not a place he would have chosen to meet his death.)   

 

However the "new gods" are now getting longer in the tooth -- the Red God/Lord of Light is the spanking new up-to-the-minute god, and the religion, monotheistic.  

 

So where do the Maesters fit into this?  I think, maybe?, individually.  The Maester guild (if that's what it is) may have preceded the establishment of the new gods, but swung into form with the Lords of the Houses when the Lords themselves converted.  I don't remember if we know which religion Luwin professed; on his deathbed, though, he sought peace or enlightenment under the weirwood. Perhaps because each Maester hews to the religion of the House he serves; perhaps because, though he serves the new gods, he was raised to follow the old.   

[stillshimpy]

Yup, I had it backwards.  I don't even think this is the first time that's happened to me, I'm sorry.  Jon wanted to take his oath by the Face Tree because he worshipped the old gods, that's right.  Plus, makes perfect sense that he'd have chosen Ned's religion over Cat's, that's for sure.  

 

I'm likely really going to regret asking this, but do we have any idea what gods the Wildlings worship?  Old, new (although the new gods are now more like the "middle gods" in the god family, they're the Jan Brady gods, apparently) or something else entirely?  

[Snowblack]

I got the impression from Osha that Wildlings worship the Old Gods.  I remember her having a conversation with Bran in the God's Wood where she was talking about the gods answering him in the breeze or something like that.  So that's where my assumption comes from.  I don't recall whether Ygritte or any other Wildlings discussed religion in any sense.  But those north of the wall certainly have a closer relationship with the land and its creatures.  Do giants worship the old gods too? ;)

[abelard]

So where do the Maesters fit into this?  I think, maybe?, individually.  The Maester guild (if that's what it is) may have preceded the establishment of the new gods, but swung into form with the Lords of the Houses when the Lords themselves converted.  I don't remember if we know which religion Luwin professed; on his deathbed, though, he sought peace or enlightenment under the weirwood. Perhaps because each Maester hews to the religion of the House he serves; perhaps because, though he serves the new gods, he was raised to follow the old.

 

I really love this spec.  The Maesters are clearly keepers of the secrets of medicine -- of poisons and cures (and autopsies, and illegal experiments) -- and maybe of book learning in general (thinking here of Maester Aemon's vast library)?  But Maester Luwin also seemed to serve as Winterfell's steward in many ways, the person who knows the inventory, who manages the house staff, who keeps the books, who decides what visitors see the Lord when - kind of a Major Domo type, too.  Kind of like Alfred from Batman, if Alfred were also a medical doctor.  I'd love to know a bit more about the Maesters b/c they have their own order - and in that way, they seem more like monks, like Jesuit or Benedictine priests, than anyone - and their own rituals (with the keys and lock, etc.), like they're a whole House of their own.

 

Maester Luwin also said something to Bran in S1 about how he could have done a course (?) in magic, but didn't b/c nobody did anymore, right?  So the Maesters used to know magic and it was a part of their curriculum?  Interesting.

 

I think Maesters were around before the Targs and the 7 Gods came.  I think they realized that survival meant conversion.  But perhaps individual Maesters cleave more to the religion they were brought up in.  Luwin maybe grew up in the North (though did he sound like that?  was that his accent?) and so maybe opted to die under the weirwood.  OR, the weirwood was the most holy place in Winterfell, that was why he chose it (there is no Sept in Winterfell). 

[Snowblack]

Abelard and Pallas, I'm replying regarding maesters in the speculation thread.

[Anothermi]

Also, yes, Sansa appears to pray to a stump, but the old gods are worshipped in the capital.  Baelor the blessed, etc.  Joffrey and Margaery were married in the same sort of ceremony Robb and Talisa were.

Shimpy, I've taken this to the speculation thread. It's about Baelor so doesn't really belong in the Stark thread.

[gingerella]

I believe that the Starks are not only the moral core of the story, but its spine.  They and what they stand for, are what the saga's about.  I believe the story may end with the "200 swords" of the Iron Thone's all being melted by dragonfire, and all other swords metaphorically sheathed.  So the melting of Ned's sword -- like the death of Ned himself -- was but the solemn first act of a story about endurance, even resurrection.  In the end, I believe, the North and the Starks and their greater connection with their environment and their people will prevail.  The values of the Starks will prove to be what doomed Ned, individually, but save his world. 

And those values are not what Jaime or even perhaps Ned believed them to be: a rigid code of honor, that makes no exceptions for human error or compassion. Ned did die in part because he was obstinate about a number of things, but mostly he died because he (1) warned Cersei, so that she could save herself and her children, (2) refused to tell his dying friend the King that he had no true heirs, again saving Cersei and her children; (3) agreed to a show trial and rigged verdict in order to save his own children.  

That imperative for which he died also led him to have a hand in saving the baby Daenarys and, I think, the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna's child, both of whom seem likely to play a large role in saving the world.  He taught Bran not to look away, and Bran is now a seer, as obstinate as Ned in following a stony path, because he believes it matters.  He taught his children that they were part of something larger than themselves, part of a world and a people, a history and a future -- all greater than they alone.  What that might be and what it means is, I think, what all the remaining protagonists and their world have yet to learn.

Pallas, I just dug through some old threads and this post from last April caught my eye because it is still so entirely relevant to this show and after thinking about the direwolves and their connection to the Stark children in another thread, this post made me even more convinced that there HAS TO BE A STARK at the end of this saga, or at least one or more Stark children lead the way just of the darkness...? For example, IF Sansa ends up jumping to her death, perhaps her willingness to die before she loses who she is, perhaps that act - the act of a martyr really - will be enough for the North to revolt and kill off the Boltons at long last. Perhaps Arya's fighting skills and determination and whatever it is she has learned at the House of Dead Stuff will be what she requires to find a destiny that brings something positive to the world, as is the way of the Starks. I mean, she killed a child torturer/molester so she has rid the world of one awful person who should not have lived anyway, but she must be destined for something else, this canNOT be her destiny, being simply a trained assassin. Bran we already know has the gifts of a seer and can warg far beyond what Jojen was able to do, and we have assumed that his destiny will be a pivotal one to save his people, but is it his people of the North, or all the people of the 7K? Rickon we know has some visioning gifts because as Llywela said in another thread, he had the same vision Bran did when Bran found him down in the catacombs that time with Shaggy Dog. And that leaves us with Jon...UHgain! Jon Snow, nee Stark, but is he also nee Targaryan too? Will we ever know? Will he survive his stabbing at the Wall? It just occurred to me, that if Jon is both a Stark and a Targ, he really trumps Dany in a sense because he has the blood of two amazing clans. Perhaps it is Stark blood that gave him his dark hair and complexion, since he was not the product of the Targ one-branched platinum gene pool tree. If he is of those two clans it seems like he simply MUST SURVIVE SOMEHOW because Dany only brings the Targ side of the equation, but Jon brings a compassion that is quite different that Dany's, IMO. JON HAS TO FUCKING LIVE. It must be known.

[janjan]

Ginger: IMO. JON HAS TO FUCKING LIVE. It must be known.

I don't see how the story can go anywhere without him. He's been with us since S1E1, and he's clearly the moral compass of the show now that Ned is gone. No one can replace him. Without Jon, A Show just goes off a cliff.

[Anothermi]

Sansa, Arya, Bran & Rickon. I'm surprised at how many of the family we got to know in S01E01 are still with us. The many, and horrific, deaths of the other Starks seems to take over my thoughts on this family. Only 2 of the Stark children have been killed. (Compared to the entire line of the Baratheons  - save Gendry... please.)

Edited April 25, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

And for some time, it's been the two boys who are secreted away from the action, and with human and direwolf companions; the two girls are at large in the world, battling it out alone. A nice reversal of the usual. Also, so far it seems to be the boys and not the girls who have empathetic or clairvoyant powers: another cliche cast off.