Jaime Lannister: Would You Let Him Watch Your Back?

[stillshimpy]

Kingslayer.  Sisterdoer.  Using Children to do Gravity Checks.  May or may not be interested in redemption, but his sister finally dumped him and for trumped up reasons after all he did to get back to her. 

I've never been a fan, but it's possible that Jaime's Winds of Change Will Blow.  Or not.  Hard to say.  

Brienne as his giant Jiminy Cricket may or may not prove to be his catalyst for change, but she actually believes in Jaime's honor.  That alone might be enough to restore Jaime's faith in its worth too.  Being taunted by his own son-nephew-King about his lack of laudable accomplishments might also push him towards action.  

Or not.  It's impossible to tell with Jaime for long.  All I know is I'm awfully glad his sister broke up with him.  I think I might dislike Jaime, in part, because I end up having to write really disturbing sentences about him. 

Edited April 13, 2014 by Which Tyler
Added "No Spoilers" Prefix; just in case someone wanders in by mistake

[Isazouzi]

OK, I'm not sure I can explain how or why, but I'm convinced Jaimie will eventually do the right thing. Whatever the right thing is. I've always liked him (which doesn't mean I agree with everything he does, like pushing young boys out the window) and I truly believe he'll be able, when the time comes, to see the big picture and do the right thing. Something that will be crucial to the story as a whole. I'm convinced he'll get many more pages in the book of heroes, or whatever it's called, and be remembered as a hero.

Or it's just wishful thinking. ;-)

[90PercentGravity]

I love Jaime, even if he is a sister-diddler. I just think there is an inherent goodness in him, despite all the bad he has done. I think a lot of his bad acts have been more him trying to be a Lannister than him really being bad. Also, he is hot and I'm shallow, so there is that.

[WhiteStumbler]

I have liked the guy ever since his interactions with Cat in S1 Ep10: "there are no men like me; only me." There is just so much in the line reading. Is it egotism or shame or self-loathing or what?

I really started to like Jaime in S2 when he was chained to that post and called Robb "a smart boy". "What's wrong: Don't like being called 'boy'? Insulted?" Then Robb's direwolf comes in. Despite the presence of this giant beast that could tear his throat out, Jaime still quips (about Stannis' Incest-O-Gram) "You have proof? Or do you want to stand around trading gossip like a couple of fishwives?" Great bravado.

His transformative journey with Brienne now has me a big fan of the Kingslayer. My only regret is that he didn't somehow get to kill Joffrey (for trying to burn down Kings Landing? The irony would have been too much).

[stillshimpy]

Well, I guess Jaime had the proverbial moment of clarity after falling so damned far last week that the line he crossed was a dot on the horizon behind him in terms of how far over that line he was.  

 

I did like that his answer, of sorts, to Cersei's telling him what to do was to give Brienne the reincarnated Stark sword and send her off to rescue Sansa.  

[capt planet]

Is the show, by portraying Jamie in a sympathetic light again this week (s04e04), telling us we should be alright with Cersei being raped last week?  This is probably more appropriate for the old race & gender thread, but I'm concerned that we are to believe she "really deserved it" because she's so evil and nasty.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Is the show, by portraying Jamie in a sympathetic light again this week (s04e04), telling us we should be alright with Cersei being raped last week?  This is probably more appropriate for the old race & gender thread, but I'm concerned that we are to believe she "really deserved it" because she's so evil and nasty.

 

I think I am going to consider it his "rock bottom" moment... he realized what a monster she was, and what a monster he became around her, and acted as a monster... but am hopeful that was his final bad act and now maybe his road to redemption will be smoother from here on out...

[stillshimpy]

I think I am going to consider it his "rock bottom" moment... he realized what a monster she was, and what a monster he became around her, and acted as a monster... but am hopeful that was his final bad act and now maybe his road to redemption will be smoother from here on out..

 

I don't think the show was suggesting that Cersei deserved to be raped.  I think everything about the Cersei and Jaime sexual/romantic/whatever-we-call-it *vomit* relationship represented the worst impulses and drives of both.  It made Cersei even more bitter and vengeful.  Produced Joffrey, ruined a world, caused countless deaths and suffering.  Children were covered in pitch and set afire in the Riverlands because of that relationship, basically (because the whole "I kidnap Tyrion!" thing stemmed from Bran seeing Jaime and Cersei, etc).  

 

That rape was the embodiment of everything that relationship really was and always will be:  A terrible, horrible thing that cannot be justified solely by contemplating human failings, or Jaime's failings (or Cersei's for that matter). It stands a reprehensible act, complete wrongdoing and something repulsive and really does symbolize everything their relationship always was, just crystalized into that moment. 

 

He can't away from having done it any more than he can redo his entire adult life, that he wasted on that sick relationship.  He can just move forward from there, but yeah, it very much reminded me of an addict hitting rock bottom.  That's the "I woke in the gutter, not remembering the last two weeks , naked. In Cleveland." tale from an AA meeting, you know?  

 

Doesn't forgive it or justify it, but hopefully it was his moment of clarity that made him decide to sober up from his long relationship with Cersei. It clearly did not have the same impact on Cersei, but then it was against her choice.  

[abelard]

That was a really beautiful post that helped me understand a really ugly thing.  Thanks, shimpy.

[Snowblack]

Today I realized that one of the assumptions I had always made abnout Jaime is wrong.  I assumed that Jaime had spent his entire life following Cersei around like a puppy, and had joined the King's Guard in order to stay close to her and to avoid being married to someone other than her.  I thought that everything was about Cersei and his fighting prowess.  It turns out I'm entirely wrong.  While thinking about the earlier rebellions, I realized that Jaime was a King's Guard and killed the mad king before Robert became king and married Cersei.  So he was never as joined at the hip with Cersei as I had assumed.  Cersei marrying the king was just incredibly fortuitous for him.

 

So I need to rethink who Jaime is a little bit.  In the first episode of the series, Jaime and Cersei have a discussion while looking down at Jon Arryn's body.  Jaime says that being Hand of the King would be too much work for him.  Apparently being the heir to Casterly Rock was too much for him too, since joining the King's Guard means he can't inherit.  I think that paired with his dyslexia, his skill with a sword pjut him on a path where nothing but his fighting prowess mattered.  He wanted to spend his entire life being an elite warrior, and to hell with shouldering the responsibilities and drudgery that come with his birthright.  That makes the loss of his hand all the more devastating. 

 

I can't wait to see how the reborn one-handed Jaime continues to evolve.  It seems to me that his insistence on remaining in the King's Guard rather than reclaiming his birthright shows that he hasn't truly accepted his new situation and hasn't grown up quite as much as I had hoped.  But what appears to be a serious split with Cersei will hopefully push him further in the right direction.  Even if she isn't as key to his identity as I initially thought.

[abelard]

So I need to rethink who Jaime is a little bit.  In the first episode of the series, Jaime and Cersei have a discussion while looking down at Jon Arryn's body.  Jaime says that being Hand of the King would be too much work for him.  Apparently being the heir to Casterly Rock was too much for him too, since joining the King's Guard means he can't inherit.  I think that paired with his dyslexia, his skill with a sword pjut him on a path where nothing but his fighting prowess mattered.  He wanted to spend his entire life being an elite warrior, and to hell with shouldering the responsibilities and drudgery that come with his birthright.  That makes the loss of his hand all the more devastating.

 

 

This is really perceptive, Snowblack, and great spec.  I think this is so true about Jaime: he has refused responsibility for a long time, he runs from it.  When Brienne told him he had to honor his oath to protect Cat's daughters he balked.  After Cersei asked him to hunt down and kill Sansa, Jaime finally took his and Brienne's vow into consideration and sent Brienne after Sansa.  Brienne, knowing Jaime intuitively pretty well by now, named the sword Oathkeeper b/c of Jaime's very high propensity for breaking oaths. (His oath to the Mad King, his oath of loyalty to King Robert, his oath to Brienne about Cat's daughters.)

 

I had a thought yesterday: When Bran warg-killed Locke, he uknowingly avenged Jaime's maiming.  The boy who was crippled by Jaime just killed the man who crippled Jaime.  It's poetic and ironic.  

[Anothermi]

Nicely put, abelard - re: the poetic irony of Bran slaying the man who crippled the man who crippled him...

 

I hadn't given that much thought, but it is absolutely true.  

 

However, as with many things in real life, this will go un-noticed by the players in the drama we are watching. :-/

[abelard]

However, as with many things in real life, this will go un-noticed by the players in the drama we are watching. :-/

 

The show is full of these ironic moments, like Jorah's family's sword (Longclaw) going to Jon Snow, the son of the man who exiled Jorah from Westeros.

[90PercentGravity]

There was a brief moment when Jaime struck his deal with Tywin where I wondered if Brienne was a suitable woman. Then I remembered that Jaime isn't a suitable man.

[WhiteStumbler]

Came across this today, and it still makes me laugh...

Brienne: I'm here to take you to King's Landing and bring back Lady Stark's daughters in exchange. Dull is fine.
Jaime: You know, it doesn't matter how loyal a servant you are, no one enjoys the company of a humorless mute. Trust me on this. People have been serving me since I was born. You think Lady Stark is going to want a giant towheaded plank following her around for the rest of her life? A week's journey with you and she'll order you to fall on your sword.
B: If Lady Stark is unhappy with any aspect of my service, I'm sure she'll let me know. She is an honest woman.
J: All the good it's done her... How did you come into Lady Stark's service? There's something we can talk about.
B: Not your concern, Kingslayer.
J: It had to be recently. You weren't with her at Winterfell.
B: How would you know?

J: Because I visited Winterfell. I would have noticed your dour head smacking into the archways. Were you pledged to Stannis?

B: Gods, no.
J: Ah, Renly. Really? He wasn't fit to rule over anything more important than a 12 course meal.
B: Shut your mouth.
J: Why? I lived with him at court since he was a boy, don't forget. Could hardly escape the little tulip. Skipping down the corridors in his embroidered silks. I knew him far better than you.
B: I knew him as well as anyone. As a member of his Kingsguard, he trusted me with everything. He would have been a wonderful king.
J: Sounds like you quite fancied him.
B: I did not fancy him.
J: Oh, gods, you did! Did you ever tell him? No, of course not. You weren't Renly's type, I'm afraid. He preferred curly-haired little girls like Loras Tyrell. You're far too much man for him.
B: I'm not interested in foul rumors.
J: Unless they're about me.

 

I miss this Jaime. And I'm glad Brienne has accepted Renly's orientation. It would reflect badly on her if she continued to deny the truth to herself and to the world.