S02.E12: eps2.9_pyth0n-pt2.p7z

[Milaxx]

23 hours ago, Milaxx said:

On 9/23/2016 at 7:49 PM, Cardie said:

I wonder. The fact that Elliot wrote of the Red Wheelbarrow in his journal indicates that he does remember some of what transpired between him-as-Mr. Robot and Tyrell--unless MR was the person who wrote that.

I think the red wheelbarrow was just Elliot's subconscious way of remembering something important. Sort of like when you need to pee in your sleep and you dream of a waterfall. 

In a similar vein the Alf episode is a nearly hour long example of this. I think a lot of people viewed it as just being something different on an already weird show. However there was a lot of truth filtered in there, most notably the fact that Tyrell was alive that Mr. Robot was hiding from Elliot.  Even Darlene constantly being knocked out symbolically speaks to her being an outsider in the family. I may rewatch, but I think the Ecorp commercials may be telling us things as well.

[Lucelu]

This finale was visually stunning. Even if it were just for the screen shots and music, I would keep watching it. I never felt that Tyrell was an alter or a hallucination. He is a character with his own history, dreams and motivations. At one point I considered that there was a third alter and we just did not know who it was-- that was in control with Mr. Robot and Elliott was not. 

The murder of Sharon Knowles: I believe the only innocent that was killed there was her unborn child. She deliberately climbed those stairs to the roof to meet Tyrell and to cheat on her husband. She was a mercenary person who enjoyed using power/position to control other people--perhaps getting off on that kind of sadism vs. the masochisma control that Joanna demands (this show is one of contrasts-yin/yang). My opinion is that perhaps the baby was not her husbands, maybe that is why she did not seem very happy about finding out she was pregnant and it is interesting that when the couples meet for dinner with Joanna nearing the end of her pregnancy and Susan at the beginning, there is no mention of it.

Despite the depiction of these archetypes-- Elliott, the paranoid schizophrenic, Mr. Robot, the anarchist and righter of wrongs, Tyrell the frustrated ambitious corporate striver-- none of them are wrong in a realistic or moral sense in that Evilcorp is truly evil and the drive that motivates those characters is based on truth.  "There's a powerful group of people out there that are secretly running the world. I'm talking about the guys no one knows about, the ones that are invisible. The top 1% of the top 1%, the guys that play God without permission." as Elliott says, Tyrell, a previous true believer--he was treated unfairly, the disgruntled screwed over executive and Mr. Robot--he truly is justified in enacting his revenge for what amounts to the deaths caused by Evilcorp's wanton disregard for human life for and their subsequent escape from justice--even the most insignificant financial justice.  

 

The show asks which is truly the greater evil? The evil we sedate ourselves against of E-corp or the f-society version where everyone's lives are inconvenienced? F-society is the bomb thrown but has no new system to build to put in its place. Their end game is basically Dark Army's entry point as they do, in fact have a new system, as does E-corp. It reminds me of the Naomi Wolfe's book about Crisis Politics. For example, the crisis of Katrina allowed land to be redistributed; the crisis of 9/11 allowed the Patriot Act and energy companies to get a free pass to destroy our environment.

I guess my view of this is colored by the fact I've been binge watching Person of Interest on Netflix. I'm also a big fan of Fight Club, Fringe and Continuum etc.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Lucelu
correction of character name.

[shapeshifter]

Great post, @Lucelu! It neatly puts the second season into a nutshell — at least for me, also a big fan of Fight Club, Fringe, Continuum, etc. ?

[Ottis]

Quote

You might want to check out that link above. This show is very much well thought out.  In the interview Esmail also likened Season 2 to the python speech Dom gave in the finale.  This season is mainly setting up for Season 3.  Esmail is playing the long game.

Here's the thing, though: That long game is meaningless and uninteresting. If Stage 2 is to simply complete the half-ass hack/revolution they started, there is nothing mysterious about that, nor intriguing. Darlene and her hackers all seem to realize that what they started 1) has mostly been an inconvenience to the big players, 2) has mostly harmed the little people who they were ostensibly trying to help, and 3) played into a larger goal of Dark Army, who is using this for their own reasons (whatever those are). And now if they blow the building to complete the job, they are likely to kill more people (most of them simply cogs) and then ... what? In season 1 they talked about erasing debt, as if that could happen in a vacuum. If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed. 

In that context, it doesn't matter if Tyrell loves Elliot, or who is real and who isn't. That's all a side show. The main question is; What's the point? I don't see one so far.

[Milaxx]

9 hours ago, Lucelu said:

The murder of Susan Knowles: I believe the only innocent that was killed there was her unborn child. She deliberately climbed those stairs to the roof to meet Tyrell and to cheat on her husband. She was a mercenary person who enjoyed using power/position to control other people--perhaps getting off on that kind of sadism vs. the masochismal control that Joanna demands (this show is one of contrasts-yin/yang). My opinion is that perhaps the baby was not her husbands, maybe that is why she did not seem very happy about finding out she was pregnant and it is interesting that when the couples meet for dinner with Joanna nearing the end of her pregnancy and Susan at the beginning, there is no mention of it.

I have a suspicion that Sharon Knowles was just as much of a "Lady MacBeth" character as Joanna is; the real one pulling the strings. In the flashback of the party Price introduces Sharon as his silent partner. It would also explain Scott's stupid gift sending and how easily Joanna could goad him into beating her up. It reminded me of early on when Tyrell beat up the homeless guy and when he came home and basically had a temper tantrum.

 

4 hours ago, Ottis said:

Here's the thing, though: That long game is meaningless and uninteresting. If Stage 2 is to simply complete the half-ass hack/revolution they started, there is nothing mysterious about that, nor intriguing. Darlene and her hackers all seem to realize that what they started 1) has mostly been an inconvenience to the big players, 2) has mostly harmed the little people who they were ostensibly trying to help, and 3) played into a larger goal of Dark Army, who is using this for their own reasons (whatever those are). And now if they blow the building to complete the job, they are likely to kill more people (most of them simply cogs) and then ... what? In season 1 they talked about erasing debt, as if that could happen in a vacuum. If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed. 

In that context, it doesn't matter if Tyrell loves Elliot, or who is real and who isn't. That's all a side show. The main question is; What's the point? I don't see one so far.

I think there's more to stage 2 than just the blowing up of the building. I don't know what but I expect there's something else. I also think the stunts that fsociety did were meant as distractions, much like the hack and video at Allsafe were meant as distractions for Elliot to hack Gideon and remove the honeypot. I think the point lies in whatever Whiterose is planning.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Milaxx

[green]

13 hours ago, Ottis said:

Here's the thing, though: That long game is meaningless and uninteresting. If Stage 2 is to simply complete the half-ass hack/revolution they started, there is nothing mysterious about that, nor intriguing. Darlene and her hackers all seem to realize that what they started 1) has mostly been an inconvenience to the big players, 2) has mostly harmed the little people who they were ostensibly trying to help, and 3) played into a larger goal of Dark Army, who is using this for their own reasons (whatever those are). And now if they blow the building to complete the job, they are likely to kill more people (most of them simply cogs) and then ... what? In season 1 they talked about erasing debt, as if that could happen in a vacuum. If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed. 

In that context, it doesn't matter if Tyrell loves Elliot, or who is real and who isn't. That's all a side show. The main question is; What's the point? I don't see one so far.

I didn't say Season 2 was a set-up for the final point.   I said Esmail said it was a set-up for Season 3.  He went on to say that the main theme of Season 3 will be ... spoiler alert ...

Spoiler

disintegration.

Edited September 27, 2016 by green

[Ottis]

Quote

I didn't say Season 2 was a set-up for the final point.   I said Esmail said it was a set-up for Season 3.  He went on to say that the main theme of Season 3 will be ... spoiler alert ...

To which I repeat:  "If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed."

It's hard to care about anyone on this show when the goal(s) of the main characters simply seem to be destruction of a society where they don't fit in. That's the ultimate self-indulgence. At least in season one, when Elliott used his skills to out people who deserved it, there was a point.  

I'm starting to feel like Mr. Robot is a show that is trying to convince us how cool it is, when in reality it is a highly stylized repeat of cliched plots with little depth.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

...I'm starting to feel like Mr. Robot is a show that is trying to convince us how cool it is, when in reality it is a highly stylized repeat of cliched plots with little depth.

Well, if you believe that "There is nothing new under the sun," (all stories have already been told; many if not all dating back to ancient civilizations/hunter-gatherers) then stylization, dialog, characterization, etc. is all we have to distinguish a production. 

[Lucelu]

8 hours ago, Ottis said:

To which I repeat:  "If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed."

It's hard to care about anyone on this show when the goal(s) of the main characters simply seem to be destruction of a society where they don't fit in. That's the ultimate self-indulgence. At least in season one, when Elliott used his skills to out people who deserved it, there was a point.  

I'm starting to feel like Mr. Robot is a show that is trying to convince us how cool it is, when in reality it is a highly stylized repeat of cliched plots with little depth.

Well, that is an interesting point. It makes me think about the events of 2008 when the economy crashed and it wasn't hackers who visited that on society. It was the banks, the corporate reinsurance company, the financiers. The government ie. the people had to bail them out and what did they get for their troubles visited by this great self indulgence of the 1%? Loss of employment, foreclosures, homelessness, loss of retirement savings and loss of investments. No bailout for them. So basically our society had a choice on who to bail out, how to fix things because there are other societies (like Iceland) who chose different. In Mr. Robot world, if ECorp is to big to fail, shouldn't they be under pressure to break up into smaller companies? In our reality, the debt was there, in the system. The banks rapaciously foreclosed and the government did worse than nothing and people lost everything-- some people were foreclosed on by mistake and still locked out and all their belongings destroyed. In Mr. Robot's world, if there is no record of debt, can it stand up in court?

[Milaxx]

14 hours ago, Ottis said:

To which I repeat:  "If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed."

It's hard to care about anyone on this show when the goal(s) of the main characters simply seem to be destruction of a society where they don't fit in. That's the ultimate self-indulgence. At least in season one, when Elliott used his skills to out people who deserved it, there was a point.  

I'm starting to feel like Mr. Robot is a show that is trying to convince us how cool it is, when in reality it is a highly stylized repeat of cliched plots with little depth.

That was never the point of the show. Elliot "helped" exactly 2 people with his hacking in season 1. Krista he helped by exposing her no good boyfriend, but in such as way as she was devastated and he turned in Rohit the owner of Ron's coffee shop for kiddie porn. The show has been about his desire to change this corrupt society via Fsociety, his mental illness , his loneliness and isolation from day 1.  We saw his disdain for modern society and most importantly E corp which he hates so much he calls it Evil Corp time and time again. He was so dedicated to bringing down Ecorp that he was more than willing to hurt good,honest people like Giddeon the owner of Allsafe and Bill, the poor guy at Steel Mountain who gave him the tour.

[green]

15 hours ago, Ottis said:

To which I repeat:  "If Stage 2 works, and they erase debt, what is their goal? Complete anarchy? If so, to what purpose? And they have more than an inkling now that whatever they do next will likely hurt regular people more than anyone. At this stage, they all just seem selfish. Or disturbed."

It's hard to care about anyone on this show when the goal(s) of the main characters simply seem to be destruction of a society where they don't fit in. That's the ultimate self-indulgence. At least in season one, when Elliott used his skills to out people who deserved it, there was a point.  

I'm starting to feel like Mr. Robot is a show that is trying to convince us how cool it is, when in reality it is a highly stylized repeat of cliched plots with little depth.

The ultimate self-indulgence is a corporation killing innocent people then covering it up to increase their profit line.  The whole trigger for the formation of f.society was based on bringing Evil Corp to justice since the establishment courts didn't and in so doing getting rid of the debt burden on regular people.

Was it a flawed plan?  Of course.  No one is so Godlike that they can see all the ripple effects nor know, in this story, the stuff going on behind the curtain with Whiterose and Price etc.

Don't fit in?  Well that would be the majority of the 99% of us.  There is no room in the world of the 1% crowd for people like us.  The next 5% below that 1% can be vassals to their lords but that is about it.  The rest of us are just reduced to peons and serfs.  So if it is self-indulgence to want to bring down the current rulers of society and start over again then there are a hell of a lot of "self-indulgent" people (aka people seeking life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) out there these days.

As soon as the super rich in history (whatever era: kings or corporations) go so hog wild in their diseased state of greed that they have to strip the last penny from everyone else for their already overly rich selves for some unfathomable reason (again, disease of greed), the middle class fails.  When the middle class crashes they realize what the working class and the poor have always known and join them.  Then revolutions start to happen or try to happen.  Always has in history.  Always will. 

In this scenario a new type of revolution is tried via hacking which is an interesting modern take on attempted change.  The fact that the mastermind turns out to be talking to his dead father half the time and that version of his father takes him over at times takes this storyline into even more fascinating territory.  How fragile is this world when one person not all together together can do something like this.  And that person is" just a nobody, just a tech."

And we have another rather unique player in the form of Whiterose who has her own agenda not entirely revealed as yet.  And Price is quick to recover and see opportunity for his E Bit scheme during the chaos too.  There are always players who quickly try and co-op revolutions.  I assume the rise of a demagogue is inevitable too.

But this is what happens every time when the 1% don't play well with others but hoard their toys and steal away any the other kids have.  They block any chance of legitimate reform and block any and all reformers from making peaceful change.  So things get bottled up like a tea kettle without a steam valve (reforms) on it.  The kettle overheats and goes kaboom.  Revolution.  Chaos.  Demagogues. Guillotines. And it all goes back to stupid fools that are diseased by greed running the show and destroying peoples lives in the process.  They never learn. 

And revolutions never work like the visionaries dream of.  Too many factors involve to make a nice clean change alas.  Too many "outside" players crashing the revolution.  So much room for drama in the years ahead.

So we are exploring all these elements in a really unique TV show.  A decent and brilliant but officially diagnosed crazy young man has sought justice for his dead father and others and started an economic revolution in the process that is beyond what he can control and has elements in it he didn't plan as himself but rather as his other self (re-imagined father).  A mysterious, transgendered woman who works by day as a male high office holder in the Chinese government seems to have her feet in both his world and in Evil Corp's.  Evil Corp's CEO wants to be God and has a plan to co-op the chaos caused by the hack to control all the world's money.  How can this not be one of the most interesting shows ever?

Edited September 29, 2016 by green

[shapeshifter]

I don't think it's time to bring out the guillotines just yet—even though Price seems greedy enough to warrant a head role (at least metphorically). I'm guessing there are still celebrities sharing the wealth, like Bill Gates. 

[mahree]

On 9/24/2016 at 8:07 PM, Milaxx said:

I think the red wheelbarrow was just Elliot's subconscious way of remembering something important. Sort of like when you need to pee in your sleep and you dream of a waterfall. 

 

 

 

Agree - but then what to make of the fact that the menu on which the code for the meeting with Tyrell was written was called the Red Wheelbarrow BBQ???

[Milaxx]

That's my point. He needed to remember red wheelbarrow menu so in the illusion he made of the prison, the red wheel was always present.

[KaleyFirefly]

On 9/22/2016 at 3:25 PM, AliShibaz said:

IMO, the best thing about this episode was the song, "The Moth Don't Care" by Aimee Mann. I had never before heard of Aimee Mann and I'm happy that to have learned about her. Apparently, her music has always been greatly admired by critics but she refused to take any B.S. from record companies and so she started her own record company and distribution business and has helped many other artists in the same position achieve success.

When people refer to successful women, seems to me she must be a great example. I really like that song and plan to get the album its from.

P.S. I did get the album. It's from 2002 and titled, "Lost in Space". It's wonderful. I can't understand why I had never before heard of Aimee Mann.

Aimee Mann is one of my favorite singer/songwriters. I wish they'd used her version of "The Moth" but whoever was singing it did a good job with it too. 

Try her album "Bachelor No. 2", it's one of my all-time favorite albums.

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Aimee Mann is one of my favorite singer/songwriters. I wish they'd used her version of "The Moth" but whoever was singing it did a good job with it too. 

Try her album "Bachelor No. 2", it's one of my all-time favorite albums.

Thank you Kaley. I usually find that when people take the time and effort to recommend some favorite music or move to me, it usually is really terrific.

[KaleyFirefly]

OK this is just my theory; but the reason why Whiterose told Angela that her plan would be "good for humanity" and got Angela to go along w/ it is because they are planning to get rid of corporate control of both currency and electricity and everyone in the world have free energy somehow. I think that the lights flickering and talk of power outages is going to be significant.

So why didn't Whiterose have Angela killed 90 days ago? What stopped that? If it weren't for the scene of Angela and the lawyer, I would have thought that bizarre scene (with the little girl and the fish tank and the old 1980s computer technology) was some sort of dream sequence. What was the point of that "test" anyway? I still don't get it.

Does Joanna know that Tyrell is alive or not? And she is totally going to get rid of the bartender boyfriend after she is done using him to clear Tyrell. At first I guess she was going to frame the bartender for Sharon's death, but the opportunity presented itself to frame Sharon's husband instead.

Great that Mobley & Trenton got out of NYC, but the fact that Leon tracks them down just as Trenton is talking about "undoing" the whole plan? Not good.

No way was that just a random bullet that killed Romero. Either Dom's lying to Darlene, or it was one of Whiterose's "non-accidents."

Is there some kind of connection between Tyrell's "Red Wheelbarrow" poem and the fact that Elliot had Red Wheelbarrow written on his prison notebook?

I like the double meaning of Python this ep & was that a python on the Fry's storefront?

I love this show. Season 2 was a bit slower and maybe more frustrating that season 1, but I still liked it and I can't wait for Season 3. I wanted all of seasons 1 and 2 as a marathon binge-watch, and I think that's the best way to watch this show. I often go back and watch certain scenes over again.

[Lucelu]

Just wish to interject-- I find the name "White Rose" to be symbolically  interesting.

The White Rose (German: die Weiße Rose) was a non-violent, intellectual resistance group in Nazi Germany led by a group of students and a professor at the University of Munich. The group conducted an anonymous leaflet and graffiti campaign which called for active opposition against the Nazi regime.

Edited November 10, 2016 by Lucelu

[ganesh]

I'm finally catching up. I don't mind Dom as a character, but I just can't take her line readings. There's no affect to them. Maybe it's because I watched three in a row, but it's driving me up the wall.

I still don't get why "fuck" is bleeped out, while "cunt" isn't.