S01.E05: The Wolf and the Lion (Re-watch spoilers)

[Anothermi]

WARNING!!! This thread was created for an Unsullied RE-WATCH after the end of Season 6 and will contain SPOILERS.

This Forum is for Unsullied Members to post in: those who have vowed to not only not read the books, but also to not watch previews, read information on the Viewer's Guide, or seek any information outside of what has been IN THE EPISODES ONLY.

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Thank you for your cooperation.

Episode Synopsis: (re-watch version)

Cat: "To the Moon, Tyrion". Theon plays with his favorite toy. Arya chases cats. Ned gets ambushed. The SPCA revokes the Mountain's membership.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

This re-watch is planned for Sunday, July 17, 2016.

We're using the regular showing time frame (9-10PM eastern time in North America) to watch & post after BUT feel welcome to post your thoughts after your regular watching time - where ever you are.

If you can't follow a regular time schedule, but are still re-watching and following the threads here, please join in as you catch up. You might spark a new burst of discussion. Happy Re-watching.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Jory, Head of the Guard of House Stark: the first named character killed as a combatant in the War of the Five Kings. Preceded by non-combatants Lord Jon Arryn, Ser Hugh of the Vale (Knight of the Tears), and The Mountain's Stallion.

What's striking in retrospect is how boldly Baelish played: crying "Murder!" at a death he'd contrived to make appear natural, then setting Ned to solve the mystery; claiming that the dagger Cat brought to King's Landing as evidence was Tyrion's; leading Ned toward discovering the truth about the royal children; appealing to Ned's sense of duty so that he'll delay leaving the capitol and stay with Baelish long enough for Baelish to deliver him to Jaime. A game of selective disclosure, more truth than lies, and all to pit the Starks against the Lannisters. (And not incidentally, get Ned killed in the process.)

Meanwhile Varys tried to parry and buy time with a few truths of his own. To Ned he speculates that Arryn was poisoned by Tears of Lys -- Varys wants to warn him off pursuing the trail Littlefinger has laid; he wants to avert the disruption of a war between the two Houses, and not prematurely expose Robert's heirs as bastards. (And incidentally, keep Ned from getting killed in the process.) But he badly misjudges his man, as Baelish does not. "Stop asking questions about how and why your mentor got killed and your friend the king is in danger, or you might be next" was not the right tactic. 

I love how in their throne room scene, the two strategists exploit the rift between the royal couple: Varys threatening to go to the Queen, Littlefinger threatening to go to the King. And how after we see Robert at his worst with Ned, we then see Robert at his best, with Cersei. "Five or one," says the man, chastened and suddenly sage, whose vision is more than equal to Tywin's. Robert knows it matters if the Targareyns and Dothrakis sack the countryside and kill or enslave the people not lucky enough to be lords. He believes that the people decide who is "the rightful monarch." He foresees that his seven kingdoms are no match against "One army, a real army, united behind one leader, with one purpose." He sets out the whole saga as a parable, and all he doesn't see is that he's looking in the wrong direction: south. And if he'd told Cersei just one lie -- when she asked him what he wanted -- he might have lived to see that too.

[Anothermi]

JORY!!!  Even when I knew it was coming. Too awful. He didn't have a lot of screen time (cumulatively about as much as Benjen, but not as gripping). It's so different going back after such a long time. I did like that Jory called Arya My Lady  and Little Lady after everyone had been mistaking her for a boy. And of course he assures her that he and the rest of Ned's guards wouldn't let anyone kill Ned. RIP Jory.

With 6 years of story now under my belt, I'm noticing that there was information provided in these early episodes that we've been "wondering" about for years but didn't think we'd been "shown" (or told). I think some of our problem is Unsulliedness.

For instance: Ned and Selmy talk about both fighting at the Trident (but never crossing paths). What I took away from that 1st time around was that both respected each other for being honourable men and good soldiers. I suppose that still is the Key point of that scene, but right up until season 6 I believed Ned didn't fight in that big battle which was why he got to the Throne Room at the Red Keep before Robert. It was during the Ser Aurther Dayne vs Ned/Howland Reed flashback that I realized Ned was there. By that time I had a better idea what "the Trident" was about - if not where it happened.

A lot of details had to go over our heads because we just didn't have a point of reference for them.

I was also surprised that Cersei spoke to Robert about their 1st born and how she still cared for him (Robert) for quite a while after that loss. Back on TWoP we frequently doubted whether Cersei had been lying when she told Catelyn about that baby. I don't know why this proof that it wasn't a lie slipped by me, but it did. This whole scene stood out this time. This Cersei... this Robert...is this the only time we saw them speak honestly to each other? I know it stood out the 1st time too, but Cersei has hardened so much. I almost liked her here.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

Alas, poor Jory. I was upset about that dagger in the eye the first time I watched this episode, as well.

Damn but this re-watch is like an exercise in masochism! So many turning points - so many opportunities not to take the path that leads to war, but this time as last time the wrong choice is made on each occasion. If only Cat and Tyrion had not met on the road. If only Cat had listened to reason instead of to Littlefinger. If only Ned had got the girls and his men out of King's Landing when they had the chance, instead of allowing Littlefinger to reel him back in. If only.

Littlefinger is always at the bottom of everything this season, scheming and plotting and outwitting everyone. It makes it all so infuriating to re-watch now, knowing what we know, knowing where it will all lead.

Fascinating to hear Robert's speech about what a Dothraki invasion would mean, in light of the season six ending - will those words prove prophetic, all these years later, I wonder.

For some reason, I desperately want for Dany to somehow someday know how vehemently Ned Stark argued against the attempt on her life. I don't know why it matters to me, but it does - especially if and when she comes up against his children. I think because she has only ever known of and spoken of the Starks as enemies - Ned was a leading light in the rebellion that cost her family both their throne and their lives.

Ah, Renly and Loras. I'm alas-ing them both already. Seven gods but this re-watch is hard on the emotions! So much regret already, and we've barely begun...

[Anothermi]

On 2016-07-18 at 1:40 PM, Llywela said:

For some reason, I desperately want for Dany to somehow someday know how vehemently Ned Stark argued against the attempt on her life. I don't know why it matters to me, but it does - especially if and when she comes up against his children. I think because she has only ever known of and spoken of the Starks as enemies - Ned was a leading light in the rebellion that cost her family both their throne and their lives.

I'm not sure that this older, wiser Dany will approach things the way she would have when we first saw her declaiming her titles and her rights to "What Is Mine". First of all, she's got Varys working with her - who was there when Ned refused to agree to having her killed. I'm not sure it would be his choice to talk about it - after all HE actually agreed to it - but we've seen that one of Varys traits is that he does not lie. Of course, another is that he is good at choosing words carefully, so as to maintain his head attached to his neck. But even if Ned's memory is not rehabilitated to Dany, we know that she has accepted Jorah and now Tyrion despite their connection to the deposing of her father. I also can't help but think that the WW threat is going to overshadow whatever disagreements the remaining Starks might have with Dany... or vice versa.

I'm reminded (by your post) that Dany is launching her take over via Dorne. It has me wondering if that somehow paralleled some of the way her ancestors conquered the 7 Kingdoms. The Martells were NOT conquered. We learned that was why they got to continue to be Princes (but not Kings). I don't recall if we were told how they negotiated that, but I'll bet Varys knows.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Damn but this re-watch is like an exercise in masochism! So many turning points - so many opportunities not to take the path that leads to war, but this time as last time the wrong choice is made on each occasion. If only Cat and Tyrion had not met on the road. If only Cat had listened to reason instead of to Littlefinger. If only Ned had got the girls and his men out of King's Landing when they had the chance, instead of allowing Littlefinger to reel him back in. If only.

Yes. If only. Yet experiencing the story again, it's remarkable how Martin created a "backsaga" -- mostly kept out of view -- that had already pitched the action into something more like fate. Take out one strand of circumstance and still, there's enough web left. What if Bran had listened to his mother and not climbed the tower -- or not listened to her, but ten minutes later? Well, but as Direwolf Pup noted re: Ep 2, Littlefinger was aware that there was plenty of Baratheon misrule and latent Stark-Lannister mistrust for him to explode and exploit.

Jaime didn't need to maim Bran, or Cat to arrest Tyrion, for the existing crisis to rear its many heads. Once Ned reached King's Landing, he would still have pursued the truth about Jon Arryn's death, and discovered the truth about the royal bastards. Cersei was already sick with worry about the secret, and more than sick of Robert: she was edging toward desperation. Robert had pawned the kingdom to Tywin Lannister and the bank of Braavos, and sought oblivion. Varys as well as Littlefinger was already working key, covert alliances. The Targareyns did intend to cross the sea with the Dothraki. And Tywin? At this point, from distant Casterly Rock, Tywin may have had the best endgame in place: whet his skinning knife while Robert ruined himself, then in lieu of calling in the debt, insist that Robert step aside in favor of his heir, Tywin's grandson (and then some).

Ned had no chance. No one wanted him to succeed, and everyone was now poised to make their own move for the throne. Ned, the one man who had never wanted the crown, was doomed by his service to the one other man who didn't want it, anymore: the King. Even had Ned escaped back to Winterfell, would he have been able to stand by as the Lannisters triumphed, untouched, or if/when Littlefinger inflamed Renly's ambition and Stannis's sense of injustice, and a new war began?

Yet meanwhile, the two leaders required to save the world from the true threat were each about to come into their own. Ned had protected and raised one, then seen him off to a place some safety and respect. He nurtured the boy's nature -- serious; brotherly; intense -- or at least, let it be. Ned's real role had ended within sight of Winterfell, when he and Jon parted. He and Robb would become his own father and brother Brandon; but the one he brought up as his second son would succeed him. 

[Anothermi]

* *slow clap* *

Great summation Pallas!

[Anothermi]

So, before we launch into a new re-watch, I have to mention the map Luwin was instructing Bran from.

I tried the freeze-frame method, but I don't have hi-def capabilities so the place names were a bit blurry. However, knowing the names of some places helped me decipher some of the blurryness (plus I used a magnifying glass). Luwin tapped three places with his pointer during the lesson:

Iron Islands - located just north of the Lannisport area, but in a bay.

Casterly Rock - located on the west side of Westeros. Area is labeled Lannisport. Seems to hug the coast as the mountains divide it from the central area which shows a lot of rivers (so probably are "the Riverlands"). There is a road from Casterly Rock to KL (I'm guessing at the name but it looks like Gold Road. LOL. Those Westerosi were not the poetic sort!) There's also a road from The Inn on the Kings Road going west, passing River Run, and continuing to Casterly Rock and on down the west coast.  It's name looks like River Road.

Baratheon Lands - This was new to me this re-watch. Located in the lands south of Blackwater Bay, just east of a green patch (forest land?) and curving around to the tip that narrows the opening to the bay. I couldn't make out any place names, but at least they did show us where the Baratheon lands were. We know that the Tyrell lands were south of Kings Landing as well, so they must have not have been far apart.

I've spent a considerable time rooting out the post I made from freeze-framing the pages shown of the Ponderous Tome. I'll bring that post over and put it in the Speculation thread, but from the way each entry was dated, we learned it was related to when Aegon conquered them by "landing" at their Keep. The Umber Keep was called Last Hearth (later confirmed and in the Unspoiled Character thread) and the Baratheon Keep was Storm's End. I didn't see it on Bran's map anywhere, but the map was just a segment of Westeros anyway. So, I've been wondering for 6 years where the Baratheon holdings were and we actually were "shown" where in S01- had we taken the time and effort to explore what we were given.

Other Locations:

Kings Landing - located at the south end of Blackwater Bay (large body of water on the east coast)

The infamous Inn at the crossroads - Located on the King's Road, near-ish to Harrenhall (from what I surmise - can't make out the name of the keep I think it is) at the intersection of the River Road to the west and the barely discernible road into the Vale of Arryn to the east.

The Twins - located west of the Kings Road but north of the Inn and Riverrun. No road actually goes to it, just a river.

The Vale is north of Blackwater Bay (actually north of another bay which is north of Blackwater bay).

North of the Vale are a series of narrow peninsulas that look like fingers. Maybe they are more like fjords. Probably Littlefinger's birthplace.

Further observation about Casterly Rock's location. You can see why the Greyjoy's attacked their fleet and burned them. They are really close. Also, It could be that Oberyn and his sister, Elia, traveled by boat from Dorne to Casterly Rock when they came for the visit and first time seeing Tyrion-the-Monster (not!). I'd always pictured them traveling overland but from what we've seen since, boats appears to be the standard way of travel to/from Dorne.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

Thank you, Anothermi! So the Lannisters have mountains of gold and a good natural harbor from which to ship it. Small wonder House Lannister is Too Big To Fail.  And as you say, A Show did give us the map we needed, halfway through the first season. Thanks to your scholarship, for the first time, I have a much better idea of how the lands and Houses relate.  

Arya will wonder what lies West of Westeros. My guess: the Shadowlands, that is, the far East of Essos. Across The Broad Sea. Does anyone from this nameless world understand that it is a globe?

[gingerella]

Second impressions...

The Mountain is a real shithead.

Ahhh, A Lannister always pays its debts...the first of many mentions of House Lannister's words.

Tyrion shows a little man can fight like a badass big man

Bron kicks ass, the first of many times...nothing like a woman after a fight...I didn't remember him saying that after someone's first kill.

Bran is a little shithead as a young in'.

Ros is a bit ladyscaped for the time period, I call foul, no pun intended! And ahem, immediately after finishing up, Theon looks extremely, how shall I put this...flaccid. Again, don't show it if it isn't realistic, yanno what I mean?

Ahhh, the Tears of Lys, first mention...

Varys proves that he knows many things. 

Aha! The INFAMOUS Arya and the Hall of Dragons Varys/Illyrio convo. And that wonderful tete a tete between Varys and LF in the throne room! It was more apparent how surprised, and not in a good way, Varys was to learn that LF knew he had been talking with Illyrio that very day. The actor who plays Varys has such wonderfully subtle facial expressions! And the two of them competing for who knows more news than the other...I am still not sure who has won that battle, any of you have an opinion on that one?

Tyrion: The Eyrie, I hear it's impregnatable.

Bron: give me two good men and some climbing spiked and I'll impregnate the bitch.

Tyrion: I liike you.

It was funny reparte like that, that offset the blood and gore and made me love A Show even more.

Can someone lay out exactly WHAT the seven kingdoms are? I am still not sure.

We were so shocked to learn that Jorah spied on Dany. 

I know some were hard on Ned being too moralistic, but I though he showed great courage and cojones to stand up to Roberts call to murder Dany and child, and in front of the small council no less. I wish he had packed up his kids and ridden for Winterfell that day.

Loras and Whatshisname...that was another aha moment first time around. It was actually very clever of Loras to put the throne in his lovers head because I don't think he'd have thought himself worthy of the crown unless Loras kept telling him so.

Cersei shows her acid tongue, "I'm sorry your marriage to Ned Stark didn't work out..." Nan other moment of levity in the encroaching darkness. And then that convo between Cersei and Robert, when she asks if they ever had a chance and he says no, that was mor brutal than all the blood spilled in this episode.

i will catch up on the rest of this thread tomorrow, as well as epi 6 tomorrow so I will be back in sync with you all!

[Anothermi]

11 minutes ago, gingerella said:

And the two of them competing for who knows more news than the other...I am still not sure who has won that battle, any of you have an opinion on that one?

I thought Varys won because he knew why Robert was coming to that particular Small Council meeting and Littlefinger didn't.

12 minutes ago, gingerella said:

It was funny reparte like that, that offset the blood and gore and made me love A Show even more.

Definitely have to agree, Ging. These (and future) scenes of Tyrion and Bronn made them favs right out of the gate. Tyrion seems to need, and attract, cohorts who both understand him and know how to have fun. He's scraping the bottom of the barrel in season 6, but I am enjoying him trying to educate Grey Worm and Missandei into to dark mysteries of humour.

17 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Can someone lay out exactly WHAT the seven kingdoms are? I am still not sure.

Ooooooh! Snap Quiz! What will I win?:

1 - The North (Starks)

2 - The Westerlands (Lannisters)

3 - The Iron Islands (Greyjoys)

4 - The Vale (Arryns)

5 - The Reach (Tyrells)

6 - Dorne (Martells)

7 - The Stormlands???? (Baratheons) <I'm guessing the name based on the Keep I just re-identified in my post above - Storm's End - and the entry in the Ponderous Tome about X Baratheon, last of the Storm Kings.>

(8) - The Riverlands, not a kingdom (Tullys)

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, Pallas said:

Arya will wonder what lies West of Westeros. My guess: the Shadowlands, that is, the far East of Essos. Across The Broad Sea. Does anyone from this nameless world understand that it is a globe?

Forgot to mention this in above post. Yes, Arya was wondering what was west of Westeros in S06 and I was wondering about Ashai and the Shadowlands just recently. This seems like a good guess. Of course, there's always the possibility of an entire honking continent between the west and east. It has been Known!

I'd guess that nobody but Sam and the Maesters care that it is a globe. (And possibly Qyborn, but he seems more into biology than geography.)

[gingerella]

Arent the Iron Islands west of Westeros, or off the west coast?

As for your guess on WHO actually makes up the infamous 7 Kingdoms, you have listed 9 so EHHHHHHH, you're out! ;)  Seriously though, I thought Dorne wasn't officially part of Westeros since they kept themselves out of the wars. Or am I mistaken?

[Anothermi]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

Arent the Iron Islands west of Westeros, or off the west coast?

As for your guess on WHO actually makes up the infamous 7 Kingdoms, you have listed 9 so EHHHHHHH, you're out! ;)  Seriously though, I thought Dorne wasn't officially part of Westeros since they kept themselves out of the wars. Or am I mistaken?

The Iron Islands ARE off the west coast, in a bay. That still makes them part of Westeros. Otherwise Robert, Ned et al would not have put down their rebellion and Ned wouldn't have taken Theon as "ward".

I'm a little confused how you counted 9 - I only listed 8. Dorne is definitely one of the Kingdoms, they just weren't conquered per se. That's why they get to be Princes, but they are still one of the 7 Kingdoms. The Riverlands, as I noted, are not one of the Seven Kingdoms but because Robert refers to the Riverlands as part of "making the eight" I included it in brackets and with the noatation.

I want my prize! <pout>

[gingerella]

Hmmm, somehow I counted 9, but you are right. Shit, now I need to think up a prize for you...hmmm....what would you like? A mug of grog? A new leather breastplate? I know! How's about a Valyrian steel letter opener? ;)

[Anothermi]

All three are great, but I'm a staunch member of the spitball wall, so grog it should be. ;-)

[gingerella]

As soon as I locate Gendry, I will have a Valyrian grog mug forged for ye, yo!