Xena: Warrior Princess - General Discussion

[Black Knight]

Ulysses definitely has his place as "the wily one" enshrined in Greek mythology, but I agree that the show opted for telling rather than showing. They probably didn't think of it as "telling" so much as "reminding" though, expecting that this would be general knowledge to the viewers as much as to the characters. I do think the show somewhat miscast him, as the actor didn't really give off crafty vibes.

I didn't mind his attitude about his wife. I mean, yes, it's unlikable, but it's also pretty true to the character, who spent umpteen years going around banging other women. His desire to go home was more about going home than it was to his wife. The "heroes" of Greek legends all tend to have unlikable things about them, especially through modern eyes. Basically you were a hero if you accomplished great deeds, even if you didn't do it for altruistic reasons or were otherwise kind of an awful person. Hector is one of the few exceptions (and if they'd had him instead of Ulysses dismissing his wife, I'd have been genuinely annoyed about it).

Of course, what always irked me most about the Troy-related episodes is the continuity being thrown out of whack, even though I realize it's silly to complain about that on this show. But Xena lets us know in the first season ep "The Reckoning" that the Trojan War is supposed to have been over for a long time already: "Hector, Achilles, Agamemnon - they're long gone." Hector and Achilles died during the Trojan War, and Agamemnon was killed by his wife after returning home after war's end. (And "long gone" wasn't meant to be ambiguous and mean that perhaps they were all gone to to the Trojan War, because that part of the conversation is how Xena establishes that Ares can bring people back from the dead for her, which she uses to trick him into bringing back the people she'd supposedly murdered to testify that she was innocent.)

[MagnusHex]

4 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Ulysses definitely has his place as "the wily one" enshrined in Greek mythology, but I agree that the show opted for telling rather than showing. They probably didn't think of it as "telling" so much as "reminding" though, expecting that this would be general knowledge to the viewers as much as to the characters. I do think the show somewhat miscast him, as the actor didn't really give off crafty vibes.

I didn't mind his attitude about his wife. I mean, yes, it's unlikable, but it's also pretty true to the character, who spent umpteen years going around banging other women. His desire to go home was more about going home than it was to his wife. The "heroes" of Greek legends all tend to have unlikable things about them, especially through modern eyes. Basically you were a hero if you accomplished great deeds, even if you didn't do it for altruistic reasons or were otherwise kind of an awful person. Hector is one of the few exceptions (and if they'd had him instead of Ulysses dismissing his wife, I'd have been genuinely annoyed about it).

Of course, what always irked me most about the Troy-related episodes is the continuity being thrown out of whack, even though I realize it's silly to complain about that on this show. But Xena lets us know in the first season ep "The Reckoning" that the Trojan War is supposed to have been over for a long time already: "Hector, Achilles, Agamemnon - they're long gone." Hector and Achilles died during the Trojan War, and Agamemnon was killed by his wife after returning home after war's end. (And "long gone" wasn't meant to be ambiguous and mean that perhaps they were all gone to to the Trojan War, because that part of the conversation is how Xena establishes that Ares can bring people back from the dead for her, which she uses to trick him into bringing back the people she'd supposedly murdered to testify that she was innocent.)

Yeah, there was a lot of 'telling' than 'showing' when it comes to Ulysses, and I agree that it was definitely an attempt to rely on pre-existing knowledge of the myth, which is what we would like to call "lazy writing." "Hey, it's Ulysses/Odysseus! You know Odysseus! It's... that guy!"

The thing with Greek heroes being flawed, I'm fine with that. However, because this came out before The Sopranos, flawed protagonists weren't really a thing yet, so I feel like that's one reason why Hercules was as innocent as a Saturday morning cartoon hero could be (though he has his Jerkules flawed moments), while this famous secondary one-time character many people know about gets such a sidestepping treatment, as in the writers sidestep any vocal acknowledgement of his possible flaws. It's okay when Hercules gets pervy with the ladies, but not when you're some nobody from one episode. Also, they changed Hercules' backstory to keep Hercules likable (like killing his wife in a psychotic rage under Hera's influence, which they retconned it so that it was Strife who killed her), so they could've made changes to Ulysses so he didn't come off as a creepy playboy.

The continuity retcon for the Trojan War wasn't that surprising to me, yeah, because both Hercules and Xena were that kind of show where writers played fast and loose with the canon AND the laws of physics. lol But in Xena's case, I feel like they've been pretty consistent only when it mattered (ie: with Callisto's fate).

[Black Knight]

X:WP wasn't afraid to write flawed characters (although it would go too far in the other direction as well - the "Gab the Glorious" period was exhausting), which is one of the things that helped the show be much better than its progenitor. H:TLJ would have changed Ulysses's characterization because it was that kind of show, but X:WP didn't have to play by the same rules, and usually didn't, starting with the protagonist. Even "reformed" Xena does a number of bad things that the show doesn't retcon away as her being framed or in someone else's control.

It was also a good way to show Xena's ever-lingering darkness, because she couldn't quite help liking jerks like Ulysses more than a classic heroine would, even though she intellectually knew better.

What of course is especially interesting is that, as you said, flawed protagonists weren't really a thing yet (though Sopranos owes a lot to Oz in that regard for paving the way), and X:WP was really ahead of its time in that not only did it have a flawed protagonist, the flawed protagonist was a woman. And refreshingly, Xena didn't get the treatment from viewers that so often flawed female characters get, which is being flogged ad nauseum while flawed male characters totally skate for the same or worse. TPTB seeing the positive reception of Xena as a flawed character and hearing the demands of viewers not to shy away from that or dark storylines really encouraged them to keep going in that direction rather than switching to H:TLJ style characterization.

[MagnusHex]

10 hours ago, Black Knight said:

X:WP wasn't afraid to write flawed characters (although it would go too far in the other direction as well - the "Gab the Glorious" period was exhausting), which is one of the things that helped the show be much better than its progenitor. H:TLJ would have changed Ulysses's characterization because it was that kind of show, but X:WP didn't have to play by the same rules, and usually didn't, starting with the protagonist. Even "reformed" Xena does a number of bad things that the show doesn't retcon away as her being framed or in someone else's control.

It was also a good way to show Xena's ever-lingering darkness, because she couldn't quite help liking jerks like Ulysses more than a classic heroine would, even though she intellectually knew better.

See, I don't mind flawed characters... as long as their flaws are called out on. Tony Soprano's adultery was called out on. Don Draper's adultery was called out on. Walter White's lies were called out on. And even though Ulysses had a single episode to have that kind of character arc, I do think it was enough time to have others call out on "Hey, don't dismiss your wife like she's used property."

The issue with this episode wasn't really with Xena being flawed, but Ulysses. I do like the interpretation that Xena's lingering darkness was what caused her to draw towards someone like Ulysses though.

10 hours ago, Black Knight said:

What of course is especially interesting is that, as you said, flawed protagonists weren't really a thing yet (though Sopranos owes a lot to Oz in that regard for paving the way), and X:WP was really ahead of its time in that not only did it have a flawed protagonist, the flawed protagonist was a woman. And refreshingly, Xena didn't get the treatment from viewers that so often flawed female characters get, which is being flogged ad nauseum while flawed male characters totally skate for the same or worse. TPTB seeing the positive reception of Xena as a flawed character and hearing the demands of viewers not to shy away from that or dark storylines really encouraged them to keep going in that direction rather than switching to H:TLJ style characterization.

Well, to be fair, I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to flogging. I've flogged both Don Draper and Betty Draper; one's a lying adulterer, the other's an insecure woman-child who mistreats her children (though I have a particular sore spot towards child abuse because I've been through it myself). I've flogged both Walt and Skyler on Breaking Bad as well. I think for Xena, the difference is that she at least tries to redeem herself for her sins; flawed characters like Tony Soprano thrive on their sins. Not only do they enjoy sinning, it's their bread and butter. It's how they make a living. Xena at least tries to be a decent human being even if she stumbles. The effort means EVERYTHING. 😆 That's one reason why I didn't really see her on the same level of flawed as other TV flawed protagonists because she still belongs to an era when TV protagonists were still decent human beings trying to do better. Tony Soprano is a monster. Xena is like Spider-Man in terms of morality and redemption; Tony is like the Kingpin, complex but clearly immoral.

Edited November 11, 2022 by MagnusHex

[Black Knight]

Walt/Skyler is a perfect example of what I mentioned. While individual people like yourself may have been equal-opportunity in regards to them, taking the fandom as a whole there's no question that Skyler came in for much more criticism than Walt did.

I agree that Xena differs from later flawed protagonists in always trying to be better. It doesn't change how remarkable it was to see the show feature a flawed female protagonist of any kind in an era where that wasn't even common yet for male protagonists, to the point its own sister show was too afraid to do anything like that with Hercules.

[MagnusHex]

4 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Walt/Skyler is a perfect example of what I mentioned. While individual people like yourself may have been equal-opportunity in regards to them, taking the fandom as a whole there's no question that Skyler came in for much more criticism than Walt did.

True enough. I guess for me, I had the privilege of watching the show years after it ended. That led me to quite an amount of spoilers, most of which detailed how Walt is an unsympathetic monster. The difference between him and Tony Soprano, however, is that Breaking Bad had us fooled that Walt was still worth sympathizing over at the beginning of the show (instead of realizing he's always been Heisenberg).

6 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

I agree that Xena differs from later flawed protagonists in always trying to be better. It doesn't change how remarkable it was to see the show feature a flawed female protagonist of any kind in an era where that wasn't even common yet for male protagonists, to the point its own sister show was too afraid to do anything like that with Hercules.

I really didn't want to bring it up since I didn't want it to steal the spotlight of cult '90s feminist shows, but... Buffy and Willow. Just saying. Willow literally went dark magic, though to be fair, her full transformation came in the 2000s, when The Sopranos (and Oz) have already aired.

But anyway, it doesn't matter, because the following episode proved me wrong about just how brilliant the show could be in writing Xena as a flawed protagonist, and that episode is...

Xena, season 2, episode 20: The Price

After last episode's fun but ultimately lukewarm writing, this one was solid gold in comparison. In fact, I'd even go on to say it's one of the top 3 episodes in the first two seasons thus far (with "Is There a Doctor in the House?" among them). There's a reason shows like Buffy was remembered among other '90s TV shows even today, and it's because of that realistic growth in its characters that's now part-and-parcel of modern serialized storytelling. Xena could've very well been just a one-note straight arrow seeking redemption because, to be honest, her whole "I've gotta pay for my crimes" schtick was getting a bit grating by season 2. But I really like what they did here in this episode, reminding us of the timeless adage antihero protagonists love to use: "People don't change." At least not in any meaningful way. Whom Xena was in the past continues to haunt her this episode as the worst parts of her warrior persona surface.

There's a trope in fiction where an antihero had you convinced that they're on the path of redemption, but maybe in season 2 or even later, a secondary character would observe that they've always been Heisenberg since season 1 and they could never change, stuck being that awful, terrible person. For me, this episode felt like it had such a trope (or at least something similar since Xena does change thanks to Gabrielle's influence), which I think was brilliant because remember: this was the '90s before complex antiheroes blew up. I like the realism of how Xena couldn't just abandon her decades of murder and mayhem behind like some cartoon character; that baggage is going to be part of her life for quite some time, certainly for more than two seasons at least.

Aside from Xena and Gabrielle's excellent character writing though, what drew me more to the episode was its anti-war theme. For some reason, anti-war storylines always get a kick out of me, probably because I hate fighting or just violence in general. At the same time, I understood that Xena had to make the tough call, so this episode was brilliant in that it wasn't just a one-note propaganda about how "war is bad," but a layered script where both Xena and Gabrielle tackled the tough questions of what sacrifices or compromises one should make in the face of war and death. Or as Garrus Vakarian put it in Mass Effect 3: the ruthless calculus of war.

"All the questions... and every one of them with a million lives riding on the answer. Though I'm starting to understand why the galaxy needs coldhearted dictators every now and then - they don't give a damn about the consequences. Suppose that's what it's going to take: the ruthless calculus of war. Ten billion people over here die so twenty billion over there can live."

Mass Effect 3 had a really great impact on me in terms of giving me a taste of what the weight of war is like, especially because it's a franchise where you the player have to make the tough call. So when Xena had to make those decisions when people started dying... well, let's just say I don't really begrudge her actions. She got the job done, and more people would've died if she hadn't taken charge.

But that's why Gabrielle's presence was crucial in balancing that fiery spirit of hers so that Xena could retain her humanity. She's her second in command in military terms. It's for that reason why I understood why Xena snapped at her, telling her not to question her commands in front of her troops. There's a nuance to that statement because she didn't just say not to question her, but not to question her in front of her subordinates. It reminds me of a similar conversation Data had with Worf on Star Trek: TNG, when the latter questioned the former's decisions in front of the crew. Data retorted that while it was fair for the second in command to voice out against decisions they don't find to be the best decisions (because that's their role), Data stated that Worf should've done so in private, not make a circus out of it. I understand the logic of it because weakening the men's faith in the leader is only going to weaken the foundation of the entire squad. This was Xena in her Warrior Mode, so she took her role as a military leader very seriously.

And man, it's impressive how brutal this episode delve into the horrors of war. Two scenes in particular stood out to me: 1) the crucifixion scene where Xena claimed that "those men are already dead," refraining from saving them, which I also thought was a sound military strategy because there couldn't have been a more obvious trap than those crucified men, and 2) the "interrogation" scene, which didn't land as hard as the writers tried because we've seen Xena's pressure point technique countless times, and it really didn't help that Palaemon already proved Xena wouldn't kill with the technique a couple of episodes ago. That said, the interrogation scene, especially in its anti-war context, really reminded me of 9/11 and the "terrorist interrogations," even though this episode came out before 2001. I feel like with Xena in the desperate situation she was stuck in, a fight to the death with limited resources, she might've considered ending the Horde member's life had Gabrielle not stopped her. Both scenes really made the episode felt different from the others, like the stakes were raised and the show was ready to take it to a more grounded and even grittier level, addressing some very uncomfortable compromises soldiers in real life had to commit in times of war.

That crucifixion scene in particular was what made me first realized that it's going to be a very special episode of Xena because, while we had crucifixions before in the show, the context here felt more disturbing and layered, and it wasn't going to be just another simple heroic rescue mission. Xena would have to make some morally questionable decisions.  Or as Lucy Lawless wisely put it: "There are no good choices (in war) - only lesser degrees of evil."

[Black Knight]

57 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

I really didn't want to bring it up since I didn't want it to steal the spotlight of cult '90s feminist shows, but... Buffy and Willow. Just saying. Willow literally went dark magic, though to be fair, her full transformation came in the 2000s, when The Sopranos (and Oz) have already aired.

Oooo yes, this brings up a really interesting point for discussion. For most of the show, Buffy wasn't a flawed protagonist so much as she was a teenager. Now, as you know, the big turn came in the sixth season, after Buffy was brought back from Heaven. She turned self-destructive, had that toxic relationship with Spike, and so forth. And Willow that season had her whole arc with magic addiction (ugh), descending into dark magic and murder.

When did that season air? It started in October 2001 and ran through spring 2002.

When did Xena's series finale air? June 2001.

Xena also premiered two years before Buffy did.

In short, Xena paved the way. The flawed-female-protagonist wasn't the only note Buffy took from Xena; using a musical episode to actually advance plot/character in important ways was also taken from Xena.

I agree The Price is brilliant. It's a shame that the show had trouble balancing and calibrating Xena and Gabrielle's perspectives as well in later seasons. (Like the Gab the Glorious period.) The episode is written by Steven Sears, who wrote many of the best episodes and also wrote both Xena and Gabrielle well, and it was a real loss to the show when he stopped writing episodes a little into the fifth season.

[MagnusHex]

Xena 3x11: Maternal Instincts

And we're I'm back with more Xena. Season 3 got pretty dark, probably far darker than previous seasons... but holy crap, I didn't see this episode coming. Once again, the series impresses me with ambitious writing that pushes the boundaries of '90s TV. I haven't seen '90s TV this dark since Angel. Lots of great acting by Lucy and Renee here, of course, but maaan, this felt like one of those wham episodes where the episode promo would tease the audience with some hyperbole like, "The episode that changes everything forever." And there was a nice setup in The Deliverer and Gabrielle's Hope too (both spectacular episodes too) so the "shocking moment" this episode didn't just come out of nowhere.

Season 3 has made Xena solid top-tier television once again because of those abovementioned episodes, and while I read that the two following episodes were a lot more highly rated, I really liked this one for making it feel like "shit just got real" and raising the stakes to the ultimate level.

Callisto by this point has lost most sympathy with me, and it really doesn't help that I don't like the Freudian excuse of "you kill my family so it justifies my evil" trope. No, Callisto, it justifies nothing.

Gabby's the one who made the real goof though this episode, and even though I don't blame her for her maternal love... man, it's really hard to blame Xena either for feeling bitter towards Gabs, because goddamn, she took a big hit with Solan.

Really looking forward to the rest of the season. Hope the stakes stay meaningful.

Edit:

I was watching The Sopranos, 3x8, He is Risen, which is essentially about (narratively speaking) old plotlines coming back to the show again unexpectedly. While Xena didn't really pull that maneuver as brilliantly, for a (previously) largely episodic format, I don't think a lot of people were expecting Hope the baby's plotline to come back in such a significant fashion, so soon even. That ending cliffhanger (instead of the usual hugs and kisses between Xena and Gabby) was also another subversion of the usual Xena format that I liked.

Edited January 21, 2023 by MagnusHex

[Black Knight]

6 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

Callisto by this point has lost most sympathy with me, and it really doesn't help that I don't like the Freudian excuse of "you kill my family so it justifies my evil" trope. No, Callisto, it justifies nothing.

Callisto was initially a cop-out on the show's part. Xena obviously was responsible for much slaughter in her past heading up an army, and Callisto far from the only child orphaned as a result. But when the show introduced a victim to confront her on it, they made her crazy and evil so that she would have no sympathy and viewers would want Xena to take her out. I know it was the first season, and the show was doubtless nervous about retaining likability and sympathy for Xena. In later seasons they got more comfortable about that, most notably with Cyane, who's allowed to be legitimately disgruntled without being evil.

Callisto and Xena's stories for why they became evil are not really dissimilar, in that both came out of a grievance over people they loved being killed. But we met Xena one episode before she decides to turn to good, and then spend an entire series on her redemption. Callisto has a less straightforward journey, and it's interesting how her goals change a few times. It's unfortunate that a key episode for her aired on H:TLJ instead of X:WP.

[MagnusHex]

11 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Callisto was initially a cop-out on the show's part. Xena obviously was responsible for much slaughter in her past heading up an army, and Callisto far from the only child orphaned as a result. But when the show introduced a victim to confront her on it, they made her crazy and evil so that she would have no sympathy and viewers would want Xena to take her out. I know it was the first season, and the show was doubtless nervous about retaining likability and sympathy for Xena. In later seasons they got more comfortable about that, most notably with Cyane, who's allowed to be legitimately disgruntled without being evil.

That's an interesting trivia. But I still stand by my point because even in the later seasons, Callisto showed no desire to abandon her evils until MAYBE the end of this episode, Maternal Instincts (and that's a very, very big and loose maybe since I don't know what happens going forward). In the flashbacks, Xena has at least showed some inkling of redemption even when she was a warlord, particularly in the China episodes with Lao Ma (nice pair of episodes btw that spiced up the formula of the series). With Callisto, Xena has tried again, and again, and again to redeem Callisto to no avail.

I think the last time I gave her a chance was before she killed Gabrielle's fiancé.

Edited January 22, 2023 by MagnusHex

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, MagnusHex said:

But I still stand by my point because even in the later seasons, Callisto showed no desire to abandon her evils until MAYBE the end of this episode, Maternal Instincts (and that's a very, very big and loose maybe since I don't know what happens going forward).

I was speaking beyond S3, which I don't consider to be a later season as it's still in the first half of the series. Maternal Instincts is an interesting inflection point for Callisto, because she gets exactly what she wanted and learns that it doesn't change anything for her.

Right after this was her double episode arc on H:TLJ (Armageddon Now Pt. 1 and 2), and I will forever and always be annoyed that the plot in the second wasn't on X:WP instead of H:TLJ. It's hard to make full sense of Callisto going forward on X:WP without having seen it, and by S3 a lot of the people watching X:WP had either quit or never bothered to watch H:TLJ.

[MagnusHex]

34 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

and by S3 a lot of the people watching X:WP had either quit or never bothered to watch H:TLJ.

Guess I'm one of the lucky ones who still stuck to the show (despite relatable desires to abandon it).

[MagnusHex]

Xena 3x12: The Bitter Suite

Okay, I can see why people love this episode.

And even though I still generally like Buffy more than Xena as a series, I like this one just a little more than Once More, With Feeling. It's a tough pick because of my own biasness with Buffy (even though Xena was technically the pioneer that preceded the Buffster), but I particularly liked that last sequence between Xena and Gabrielle as the former apologizes to the latter, because as corny as that number was, Lucy's performance really sold it and made me feel like I was watching a high-production musical.

And the funny thing about both this episode and Buffy's musical one is that... I'm not a big fan of musicals. Or at least, I don't think I'm the kind of person who enjoys them because I'm too cynical of a person, preferring comedies like the UK Office or even Seinfeld. But episodes like this do make me wonder if I secretly like the genre after all, especially when Gabrielle's Potedaia number evoked for me Belle's intro number from Disney's Beauty and the Beast in a positive way rather than a cynical eye-rolling one.

I think for me, why this would end up as one of the top 10 Xena episodes of all time is for the same reason why Once More, With Feeling worked so well. Both episodes came about at a very, very dark period for both shows, so the juxtaposition of that abrupt musical episode worked in their favor as the characters have all this pent up tension they're trying to unleash through their songs. They have all this rage and despair they had difficulty voicing out through words, so why not through a song a dance? It's a beautiful narrative device, and not just because you get plenty of flowery prose in the lyrics symbolizing their feelings. When the storyline has been that dark for the previous episodes, and the audience gets treated with a sudden musical out of nowhere, we know that something has to give amidst all the peppy singing, that someone would have to eventually address the repressed despair and sorrows Buffy, Xena and Gabrielle are harboring amidst these happy joyful musical numbers. So it's a nice way to keep the audience in suspense and on our toes and keep the tension high as we anticipate how they're going to address the darkness while also moving forward to a better, more hopeful place in the show.

I have mixed feelings about the final scene where Xena and Gabby just happily rolled around in the sand, back to status quo, but I think in retrospect, Xena's apology (and just how well-performed that song was) made that final beach scene well-deserved instead of a cheap cop-out.

Also, this episode was nominated for two Emmys for the music, which is no surprise. What's more surprising is, again, how high-budget and "cinematic" it all feels because I have to wonder how much they spent on the musical stuff.

10/10, no complaints.

Edited January 22, 2023 by MagnusHex

[Black Knight]

I'm not a big fan of musical episodes either, but also love both Xena's and Buffy's. I think part of that ties into what you wrote about the timing of each episode within the overall narrative. There's an organic quality to that which I think is crucial.

With a lot of series, their musical episode(s) feels like TPTB just said, "Oh, we have multiple actors in the cast who happen to be great professional singers, and viewers like musical episodes, so we should do one too." And it's something of a throwback to the old days of musical episodes before X:WP did theirs and Buffy followed, in that while they do follow the model X:WP established of doing a musical episode that actually moves the plot along, they're not locating a point within the narrative arc where it truly benefits from being done as a musical. But when I look at what Bitter Suite and OMWF accomplished within their shows' respective narrative arcs, it's hard for me to see how the same could have been done as well through the regular episode format.

[Bort]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:24 PM, Black Knight said:

Right after this was her double episode arc on H:TLJ (Armageddon Now Pt. 1 and 2), and I will forever and always be annoyed that the plot in the second wasn't on X:WP instead of H:TLJ. It's hard to make full sense of Callisto going forward on X:WP without having seen it, and by S3 a lot of the people watching X:WP had either quit or never bothered to watch H:TLJ.

I never watched Hercules in the first place, I was the weirdo who rolled in watching only Xena but I caught on to the fact that the shows were crossover heavy and I would watch Hercules if there was a crossover going on.

[MagnusHex]

3x22: Sacrifice, Part 2

Holy crap.

So obviously, Xena the show has been consistently excellent in writing for a while prior to this episode, and even had moments of brilliance in season 1 and 2. But this episode... wow. It felt like it really sealed the confirmation that Xena was no longer just another campy '90s show, and was more in line with other "must-watch TV" solid series down the road. Maybe not Sopranos level quite yet, but still somewhere above shows like Supernatural and along the same ranks as peak-level X-Files (pre-season 6 before the quality declined), Buffy and Angel.

I mean, just in this episode alone, you have:

1. Grey moral areas all around.
2. An end of the world conflict that felt like something a series finale would bring out.
3. Gabrielle and Xena having grown a lot in character development to the point where you'd ask "Where could they go from here?" Gabby has become a lot more stoic and pragmatic, giving that cold line to her daughter "I'm sorry the poison didn't kill you" while Xena was ready to have her ultimate redemption: to die for the sake of the world.
4. The seeming death of two prominent characters, Gabby and Callisto.
5. A season cliffhanger, something that reminds me of the other classic '90s icon, The X-Files.
6. An overarching plot that has carried on for a long time (in what used to be an episodic TV show, mind you) and might very well carry on to the following season (I might be wrong, but I feel like this isn't the last we've seen of the Dahak storyline because I've seen Dahak's true form in the Xenaverse wiki, and he hasn't shown up yet in the show).

All in all, Xena has definitely earned its place among solid '90s TV, and it's shows like this that made me revisit '90s TV shows I was too young to remember.

Honestly, I don't know what else I could say because I feel like words alone cannot describe how awesome this episode was. It felt like one of those episodes in a TV series when it's firing on all cylinders, when the show hits all the high notes that made you love the show in the first place, sort of like Becoming Pt 1 and 2 in Buffy. Appropriately, Becoming was probably the moment when Buffy entered the pop culture lexicon as "solid top-tier TV" rather than the campy MotW series Buffy used to be in season 1; Sacrifice parts 1 and 2 feel like they have the similar effect, along with the entire Dahak storyline throughout season 3.

Going back to Gabrielle, she has definitely come a long way since season 1, no longer just a sidekick anymore by this episode. She almost had me fooled that she was gonna betray Xena again or something, and I would have a hard time blaming her anyway because she's her mother, but damn, she laid down the no-nonsense harsh words against Hope like that, and it makes me rather proud of how much she's grown.

Obviously, Gabrielle's gonna come back, but man, I just love how you can sometimes immerse yourself so much in the show you could block out your knowledge about the future of the show, pretending that "This is it for Gabrielle, and this might even it for Xena the show." It's that immersion that allowed me to become emotional and tear up when Gabrielle dropped down that pit, even if I knew she's gonna be alright. And perhaps that's a credit to how well the episode was directed and how well Lucy Lawless sold the scene and grief she felt, gradually realizing her best friend and lover was gone forever. It helps that I really didn't see it coming, at all. I thought Xena was going to sacrifice herself and the show would have a false ending where it pretended it's the series finale, but then Xena would come back next season with the help of Hades or something, so what Gabby did definitely made an already epic would-be epilogue into an even more amazing cliffhanger.

And I haven't even talked about freaking Joxer. Freaking Hell. What an amazing moment to be remembered. When Joxer tossed Xena the dagger, I legit teared up. Yet another amazing twist I didn't really see coming. Did Joxer get the dagger from the boulder without Xena's knowledge? I don't think that's the case, as Xena seemed like she expected it, rather than be surprised by Joxer. Yet another example of the way the episode kinda ties things up nicely for the show, because this kind of "making an incompetent character look like a champ" character development is usually reserved for the series finale of the show, so it's rather interesting that Xena's writers really had these nice character growth so early in the show. I mean, I'm only in season 3 here, you guys. lol

Overall, Sacrifice Part 2 is probably among my top 3 episodes as of season 3 so far. I'd say it ranks just beneath The Bitter Suite at #1 and above Is There a Doctor in the House? at #3 (I still remember that season 1 finale fondly because it was the first time Xena felt like a very different show from the other campy '90s television like Hercules).

10/10

Can't wait to see how season 4 is going to continue with a cliffhanger like this.

Edited February 2, 2023 by MagnusHex

[Bort]

29 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

Can't wait to see how season 4 is going to continue with a cliffhanger like this

I remember watching that finale and wanting so bad to see the premiere, it was the longest summer of my life.

[Black Knight]

I consider S3 the peak of X:WP, but S4 was also very strong. After that, episodes and arcs were more hit-or-miss. The writing for Gabrielle would be so annoying sometimes, and Steve Sears stepping back from writing really hurt. And Lucy Lawless being allowed to incorporate too much of Diana/Meg into her portrayal of Xena, and even outside the comedic episodes, was a killer for me. But I feel the two-part series finale was excellent, and was really happy that the show closed strong.

[Primal Slayer]

Finally got around to finishing S4 after taking a hiatus from the show. Of course Ides of March was a great episode and "finale". Even if Xena/Gabby always ended up coming out on top in the end, they definitely suffered plenty of losses. Of course it would've made more sense for Alti to be in Callistos place but Im glad she couldnt do it and they had Hudson step in. 

Deja Vu All over Again is such a fun and perfect episode that it reminds me that this show really does not get NEARLY the amount of love that it should. Sure there are plenty of episodes that deserve awards but if this was on a bigger network, this definitely would've won some. The writers having Joxer/Xenas souls get mixed up in each others reincarnated bodies was GOLD. 

[Primal Slayer]

I swear...Season 5 has SO MANY good ideas but every single one of them are rushed as hell. I don't know why the writers refused to let anything breath. They throw Xena/Gabrielle 25 years in the future and 5min later she is already in Rome, finds her daughter...there is just zero chill. 

[Primal Slayer]

Finishing up the very short-lived Livia sequel and I still despise 20 years later.

To be introduced to Eve as Livia, this shell of a person who is just evil to be evil followed by "Eve" where she is magically redeemed by Eli as if she was under some type of magical brainwash is so annoying and makes the character even less of a character than she already was.

In the interview with writers/producers they talk about how you can't keep the storyline of Livia vs. Xena go on to long or have her as a villain that long so they just made it 2 episodes...what the hell were they thinking.

They gave her absolutely no depth and having her kill all those women/children/men/Joxer was stupid.

So how do you fix the character and overall storyline (for the billionth time as I know this has been discussed everyone for the past 20 years)?

First off....they should've decided "Is Eve brought up by Octavius Augustus or somehow finds her way to becoming the champion of Ares"?

If she is brought up under OA then the whole "hatred for Followers of Eli" should've been outright dropped as it makes no sense.

If she finds herself lured away by Ares at a decent age (lets say...18/19) then she should find the followers of Eli as the "bad guys" as she doesnt see how the world could go on without the Gods. She leads his armies, she has met Athena, Aphrodite, etc...

Either way...she is someone who never feels complete and has always been drawn to fighting, being trained by the best to the point of being deemed the new "Warrior Princess"

Like her mother she does not take satisfaction in killing women and children, choosing to instead lock them up.

If she is raised by OA, she learns to be manipulative and work her way up the system that is primarily ruled by men. She does end up leading the army and she is snarky but she isnt a cold blooded killer.

This should've lead us to the finale with Livia finally seeing that everything she thought she was grown up to believe was wrong, turning on OA/Ares and saving Xena.

Either way she doesnt become some whining pacifist who cant defend herself. She remains a warrior who like her mother is fighting to right her wrongs, joining Xena/Gabby full time.

[Black Knight]

It's interesting to think about how X:WP would have been written today, when basically all non-reality TV shows except for sitcoms and procedurals are heavily serialized. Back then on TV, episodic was the rule rather than the exception, and at most there might be the occasional doubleheader for really big events, which X:WP did a few times. It's not only S5. Think about how much ground is covered in Return of Callisto, or how Gabrielle and Xena become majorly estranged at the end of one episode and reconcile the very next episode.

16 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

She remains a warrior who like her mother is fighting to right her wrongs, joining Xena/Gabby full time.

The first part of that, yes, but she should have gone off "on her own journey" to do that and found her own Gabrielle. X:WP was never going to turn their core duo into a trio.

[MagnusHex]

4x5: A Good Day

Yeah, season 4 definitely has a bumpy road ahead, with comedic fillers in between serious moments ruining the characterization and the tension of it all.

That rather small complaint aside... this was a freaking amazing episode. It's easily one of my top 10 episodes thus far. I love the themes of war, how sacrifices had to be made for peace, and especially how Gabrielle had to struggle with her own pacifism potentially (albeit indirectly) causing not just the death of an innocent, but bloodied the hands of one too when young Temecula killed, possibly out of revenge. On a semi-unrelated note, all this talk of justice and killing just reminds me of that visual novel, Full Metal Daemon: Muramasa that also talked about the difference between justice and murder... even murder in the name of justice. I'm not judging Gabby here, but what I'm saying is it's a tough moral line to walk, and I love the greyness of it all in this episode.

Also, poor Phlanagus just wanted to earn a living, something that's a true motivation for soldiers both past and present (but especially in the past, I'd imagine when job opportunities might be more scarce and a lot more men were sword-for-hire). It's a great way to add yet another meaningful context to a pretty heavy episode. I cried my eyes out not just for Gabby and her having to suffer yet another death on her conscience (Renee killing it as always), but also for Phlanagus and his family (Phlanagus might as well be an allegory for all the soldiers who died in war for the sake of peace). There's just so much to unpack there in that last scene.

Xena didn't get to fight Caesar much this episode, which is a little bit disappointing, but considering how amazing the rest of the episode already is (including Xena's brilliant strategizing that I enjoyed watching), it's a minor nitpick.

4.5/5

Next episode looks like a parody of Footloose. Dear lord...

Edited January 13 by MagnusHex

[Black Knight]

So many of the best episodes were scripted by Steven Sears. When you're done watching the series, you should check your list of your ten best episodes against the writers of them (Wikipedia has everything).

S4 carried over the excellence of S3 in terms of drama, but is when the comedy started going downhill.

[MagnusHex]

Watching "A Tale of Two Muses". It really needs a scene like this, with a track that's just as energetic too. lol

 

[MagnusHex]

4x21: The Ides of March

This was a very plot-heavy episode, but it's even better character-wise too, especially with Xena and Gabby coming to terms with their roles in life (more so Xena than Gabby since Gabster had accepted it a long time ago, but I think it's this episode where Xena really took the reins of "Way of the Warrior" despite Callisto's temptations).

I could see why it's such a beloved episode. But there's just onnnne little gripe... the next episode, the season finale, looks like a gag episode. For shame. I kinda just skipped ahead to spoil myself a little by looking at season 5's episode promo, and holy shit, the first episode looks amazing. Finally, we get to the Christian Heaven and Hell portion of the Xenaverse which this episode has been foreshadowing heavily with Callisto not mentioning a certain King of Hell. I have heard that people hated season 5, but I say bring on the heaven and hell, man, because I'm ready for Xena to fight Lucifer. It's gotta be more interesting than the letdown on the Hercules side of things where the later seasons were just devoid of Greek mythology gods (Herc didn't even get to fight the Titans by the end of season 5, only speak to one of them briefly). So far, I have enjoyed Xena's trips to the other lands beyond Greece because it just felt like both Hercules and Xena didn't know what else to do with Greek mythologies anymore (with Herc giving us discount Norse mythology at the time of airing of Xena S4), so what the heck, go beyond borders with problematic cultural appropriation that might not have dated all that well for all I care; I'm all for it.

Finally, Caesar has met his end. We all know Xena was never gonna be the one to end the king (because history), but still, I like this ending. It's shot well enough, and I liked the back-to-back parallels with Xena and Gabby being crucified during Caesar's own execution. You can clearly see here long before this point of time where the talents in cinematography went to between Hercules and Xena, but this ending is just yet another example of great editing and camera work in this show.

4.5/5

Edited March 5 by MagnusHex

[Black Knight]

8 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

But there's just onnnne little gripe... the next episode, the season finale, looks like a gag episode. For shame.

Yeah, I'll never understand that decision. Why would that episode not go earlier so Ides of March could be the season ender?

It was Renee O'Connor's first time directing an ep, so maybe that had something to do with it. But really...

[Ceindreadh]

I’m guessing that they put the ‘gag’ episode as the finale so that the season wouldn’t have a downer ending. 

[MagnusHex]

2 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

I’m guessing that they put the ‘gag’ episode as the finale so that the season wouldn’t have a downer ending. 

From what I heard, it's to fill out the 22 episode quota. The fact that it's partially a clip show (and a poorly done one) further supports that theory.

[Ceindreadh]

On 3/8/2024 at 11:22 AM, MagnusHex said:

From what I heard, it's to fill out the 22 episode quota. The fact that it's partially a clip show (and a poorly done one) further supports that theory.

I always appreciated the way that Xena was so creative in its clip shows.  Most shows when doing a clip show seemed to use either the 'main character is in a coma' or 'main character has amnesia' trope as a premise for clips shows, but Xena and Hercules at least had some original ideas. 

[Primal Slayer]

On 3/5/2024 at 7:41 PM, Black Knight said:

Yeah, I'll never understand that decision. Why would that episode not go earlier so Ides of March could be the season ender?

It was Renee O'Connor's first time directing an ep, so maybe that had something to do with it. But really...

It was more of a network decision if I remember correctly. It was filmed before Ides of March. USA likely didnt want to end the season with their leads dead as to not confuse the audience who might've thought that it was the end of the show.

Edited March 10 by Primal Slayer

[Black Knight]

They could have just slapped a "To Be Continued" on there, though. It's not like audiences back then didn't know about season-ending cliffhangers.