Lucifer in the Comics

[Athena]

Since the show has begun incorporating a few more elements from the comics, a thread seems appropriate.

 

Here is your chance to discuss the comics freely without spoiler tags in relation to the show.

 

For non-comic book readers, you may pose question about comics, but please be aware there are spoilers. This does not mean the show will incorporate any comic elements. Enjoy.

[Bruinsfan]

Interesting that the speech from Sandman about never having made a single person do evil was delivered with such raw emotion. In the source material, Lucifer said it to Morpheus almost offhandedly, to correct a misconception. Ennui and dispassionate resentment seemed to be his primary motivations there, whereas on this series there seems to be a goodly dollop of righteous outrage.

[storyskip]

Yeah, I think a pure Comics' Lucifer would have been hard to get a Network TV audience to relate too.  Maybe a Netflix or a Showtime where the stories could have been more polarizing, along the lines of the comics but not Network TV.

 

Comics Lucifer is extremely aloof and like you said, dispassionate and filled with such a deep ennui that he can be hard to relate too.  He does make it up with his dry as dirt humor but in my opinion even the comics use Elaine and other characters to help balance him out.

 

It was jarring, in the beginning, seeing the series Lucifer, with his lusts for sex, drugs, alcohol and general playboy manner.  Props to Ellis' acting to help sell that tbh and I think the writers are pulling in the core motivating factors for Luci, such as his desire for Free Will, his complete 'I'm over it' at being part of Yahweh's plans but they've layered in a few traits that help give other ways to relate to him.  Is it always a perfect mix ... eh, some episodes are better than others.

 

I think it could be an interesting story to follow and I'm along for the ride, for now.  I agree with some posters in the Wingman thread that if they completely devolve Lucifer's powers and just make him another handsome civilian male with UST with his police officer female co-star, I'll be disappointed.  Some of th ... no, actually THE best stories in this series (my humble opinion) have been the ones with the heavy 'Political life of an angelic family' tinge, rather than the procedural.  But then that was the case for me in the comics as well, I was always more into the stories of Lucifer dealing with the Silver City than some of the 'human parallel' stories they did.

[Fukui San]

It's been a while since I read the series, which was one of my favorites, but isn't 95% of it pretty much unusable as grist for a TV series mostly set in the here and now on humancentric Earth?  We can't do a storyline in a Victorian S&M version of hell and we can't do a voyage of the Naglfar, can we?  There were so many esoteric places the series went that a TV series just can't go to due to logistics and budget.

 

I would love to see a version of Elaine, the little girl with psychic powers who eventually turns out to be the most powerful thing in the universe.  On the other hand, the tarot card people were tedious and not worth trying to translate.

[storyskip]

Pure speculation but I've been wondering if Trixie and Chloe are supposed to be pieces of Elaine.  Like not a direction "daughter of Michael" situation but Elaine was equally as big a character in the comics as Mazikeen, Amenadiel, Michael and Lucifer so that she's completely erased feels odd.

 

Beyond that, I think you've hit the nail on the head.  The locations, not to mention the stories themselves from the comics are just too much money + polarizing subject material for a Network TV show.

[Bruinsfan]

Yeah, that whole story arc with Rudd calls into question Yahweh's righteousness in creating Hell and punishing people in it forever. Not to mention later abandoning Creation altogether. That wouldn't be likely to go over that well with viewers (or Fox executives).

 

The Sandman speech is also a weird choice in that it's blatantly incorrect about TV Lucifer. The people he works his mojo on may want to do the things he's tempting them into, but clearly he's eroding their inhibitions and even pragmatic understanding of the consequences of indulging their ids. Most wouldn't have actually behaved the way we see without Lucifer on their metaphorical shoulders encouraging them and silencing the inner voices that say "no, I shouldn't." (Comics Lucifer doesn't really care about most people's desires and motivations, he just takes advantage of them when they're useful to his purposes and squashes them like bugs if they get in his way.)

Edited March 11, 2016 by Bruinsfan

[vampdetective]

The Sandman speech is also a weird choice in that it's blatantly incorrect about TV Lucifer. The people he works his mojo on may want to do the things he's tempting them into, but clearly he's eroding their inhibitions and even pragmatic understanding of the consequences of indulging their ids. Most wouldn't have actually behaved the way we see without Lucifer on their metaphorical shoulders encouraging them and silencing the inner voices that say "no, I shouldn't."

 

But until recently Lucifer himself didn't see it that way. In "Sweet Kicks" he comments that people need to take responsibility for their own bad behavior. Chloe gives him a pointed look and repeats that yes, people DO need to take responsibility for their bad behavior, and it completely goes over his head that she is talking about him. But he is correct that he never makes people do anything -- no matter how strong a temptation is, it's still not the same as force.

 

Also, his complaint is that his name gets invoked for depravity in general -- he gets blamed for corrupting far more people than the relatively few that he has actually worked his mojo or favors on.

[storyskip]

In the most recent episode topic "A Priest Walks into a bar" someone was talking about the nature of Lucifer's fall in the comics.  I didn't want to answer there so rolled over here.

 

Samael's Fall in the comics boils down to his fierce independence and that Indomitable Will.  It expresses itself when he moves against Gabriel over the fate of young Mazikeen and Briadach.  Gabriel wants to judge and punish (read kill) the children under the claim that it is what Yahweh says.  Samael insists that it's what Gabriel says, not Yahweh and that angels should express Free Will of thought rather than just preach a party line.  Michael, sits out the disagreement though kind of on the same premise that Samael argues; ie: they are Yahweh's tools, not Yahweh and thus have no right to judge.

 

Then Samael renounces his 'name' and takes on his title 'Lucifer' and flies off with 1/3 of the host at his heels in agreement with his position.

 

We get the war, where Michael and Gabriel gain the upper hand, imploring their brother Lucifer to end this before he is destroyed.  Lucifer refuses to bend, saying if he is to die then he does so as his choice!  At this point Yahweh intervenes yet again, reminding his beloved sons that they are his, which sends Lucifer deeper into his "NO I'M MYSELF!" stance.  So Yahweh says "Okay come on then, I'll take you as far away from Priumum Mobile (Yahweh himself) as I can."

 

Lucifer still wants assurance that Yahweh won't try to enforce his will (Yahweh's will) on Lucifer, which Yahweh can't give, because as he says "The Plan grows outward from me in all directions.  Whether I will or no I am the center of order of determination"  But for the time being, so long as he's far away from "Dad" Lucifer is content.

 

Of course, Yahweh has brought Lucifer to rule Hell, as Hell is the furthest place for Yahweh's voice.  And as we see, 10 Billion years down the road, Lucifer finally puts it together that, ruler of Hell or not, it's still all Dad's Plan (capital P) and so he's still his father's insturment. 

 

Now in the comics, Lucifer is working on an escape plan.  He has no interest in reconciling with Yahweh, he just wants his own creation, outside Yahweh's.  Of course he runs into issues with the whole Creation if crumbling problem ... sigh.  In the series, they seem to be going the route of Lucifer trying to sort out his relationship with his father, which (IMHO) is probably a more emotionally accessible story, than the pure comic's motivations.  

 

It is interesting that while the TV series Lucifer is 'softer' in a way and in his fascination with humans than his comic counterpart, you could say from the comics that Lucifer set the ball rolling for his rebellion when he showed mercy to Lilith's children and refused to allow them to be killed through judgement that was not his father's.

Edited March 23, 2016 by storyskip