Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

[stillshimpy]

Shimpy, glad you finally met Penny!

Oh good, there will be more from her? I actually mean that as opposed to anything ironic. That's a hopeful thing.

There's a nice insight of Daario, I was sure you would have commented on it, since you noted how undeveloped he was up to this point. And then there's Hizzy, GG the GG...

Gosh, I found that chapter pretty freaking repetitive, but it also contained information I already kind of knew, which is why I didn't comment on it. So for me this how the chapter read: Okay, still more of Martin's interest in the concept of prostitutes, brothels, pleasure houses and what things like concubines. Drink every time there's a mention of a bed slave or the seven sighs!

Which sounds really derisive but honestly, I think it's an interesting enough world detail. I spend a lot of time in those chapters trying to suss out which real-world equivalent Martin was working with in his world building. For instance, on Volantis -- which I've come to appreciate the rendering the show did through the most recent chapter -- I realize it's India and then there's going to be something else in there, but I can't pin it down to anything yet.

So anyway, Dany's dinner with the head of the sacred syndicate of sex workers (or whatever that was) was not particularly gripping to me. Dany's case of the swoons over Daario is amusing, but not interesting enough to comment on most of the time. His solution to her political problems within the city -- kill 'em all and let the gods sort 'em out, basically -- was in line with what I already knew about him. He's a mercenary in this story, it makes sense that his people skills run towards Hulk! Smash!!

(Here I pause to point out that it is four degrees outside, and I'm girding my loins to go walk my dogs in this weather)

And then she gets engaged to Hizzy, who has all the interest in her as I was expecting.

Into the Arctic I go.

Was there anything else you were asking about, Terra? But that's how much the chapter left an impression on me: You asked and I had to pause to think what happened in it...and primarily it was a lot of narrative treading of water.

[Terra Nova]

No, no, I was a little bit surprised by the lack of comments, usually you have some even for the dullest, most uneventful chapter :) Thank you. I'm also aware that for someone coming from the series it's not that interesting to meet someone you already quite know - Hizdahr, in this case, as it's the first time the reader gets a closer look -.

The Graces are basically priestesses serving in the main temple, with some sort of sacred prostitution in the mix, I guess, which I think is a nice little detail.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Terra Nova

[bobbybuilderton]

You use the phrase "narrative treading of water" or some variant fairly often. The book does need editing but I think it's difficult to say what is and what isn't treading water until you've finished the book. Given how much you have left.

[stillshimpy]

Well, I also had a moment of chuckling over the sort of thing this story tends to inspire as thoughts: "Oh, it's nice that Dany won't kill the hostages. Who are actually just kids so I'm not sure why I'm handing out points for that. Not that killing adult hostage is okay. Oy."

[Terra Nova]

And yet, while I wouldn't want some poor kid to be killed in retaliation, once Dany decided she would have taken hostages with the threat of killing them if the murders continued, she should have gone all the way through.

As despicable Tywin Lannister was, he was right about empty threats being counterproductive, and at this point the diplomatic approach is well beyond reach for Dany.

[Alayne Stone]

I think you're just beginning to get a more full picture of the political situation in Meereen which was considerably watered down for the show, probably due to time constraints. But the children hostages are not at all unlike a situation she might face in Westeros where the children of conquered enemies are sent as "wards" to make sure their parents don't rebel again. And you've just met the Graces. I think ... depending on the color of their veils, it represents different faucets of society they represent. They each have their own functions similar to how the Septas supposedly have different functions according to the colors they wear as well (which still hasn't been explored very much in ASOIAF).

Just want to make sure I can mention that she's learned the threat of Yunkai was not so easily squared up like it was in the show. They are still very much an external threat to her rule. I can un spoiler tag this, right?

No other thoughts on Hizdhar? I honestly can't remember how much you are exposed to at this point, but his book counterpart is quite different from his show counterpart. I actually really liked his show counterpart too, by the way.

And yes, you've just met (well ... re met I suppose) Penny, another cut character from the show.

Forgive me if this is a really stupid question, but can someone refresh my memory on all this monkey talk I keep seeing? lol

Edited January 10, 2016 by Alayne Stone

[Terra Nova]

@Alayne

it's about Victarion thinking the monkeys are mocking him. Actually, here's a funny link:

http://imgur.com/gallery/sKt1Mpt

(the link is not for Shimpy, at least for now)

[stillshimpy]

No other thoughts on Hizdhar? I honestly can't remember how much you are exposed to at this point, but his book counterpart is quite different from his show counterpart. I actually really liked his show counterpart too, by the way.

Not really? I mean, other than the fact that Book Hizzy is the one pushing for the fighting pits to be opened in far more inventive ways and is the one open to marrying Dany. He's got stranger hair, but welcome to the cast of thousands on that one. I mean, there's a guy with a purple beard done up in a trident. Makes me shudder to think what all these folks are using as hair gel, because history suggests they'd just smell delightful , so that's one area that always gives me a bit of a giggle.

It's another area that maybe seeing the show first is not serving me well in season five

because Hizzy is dead in the show and he really didn't do much prior to unexpectedly trying to help Dany and dying. That's probably part of the reason I haven't really been focusing on him with much interest. If he's at all like his show counterpart, he's sincere and he doesn't really matter much.

But then, just in the book, he's currently just kind of a spot of local world building. He hasn't really done anything other than lay a completely passionless kiss on Dany, at her command. I did appreciate the "Do this and I will marry you in 90 Days" planning, because that's fairly deft management.

The whole deal with everyone and their entourage trying to get to Dany to win her hand reminds me slightly of the game Elizabeth I had to play.

I did note that apparently Elia Martell was the one woman in the Kingdoms that wasn't in love with Rhaegar, but that doesn't exactly shock the hell out of me. Barristan's counsel is interesting enough, but again I suffer from a couple of things in this story and one of them is: I know Dany's not taking off for Westeros any time soon. I also know that there's never been any kind of answer on the "Did Rhaegar Targaryen really take Lyanna Stark, or was she with him willingly?" and that is the one thing that I ended up pondering after I read the chapter.

But I came down on the side of that not being a particularly surprising development: most marriages for the crown aren't about love, or weren't in our history and presumably in Martin's world either.

That Barristan thinks so highly of Rhaegar fits with what I already know. That Jon Connington was in love with him is pretty obvious, but sweetly conveyed. If I absolutely had to guess at this point, I'd say that Lyanna initially went with Rhaegar willingly enough -- which might actually be the root cause of Lyanna Stark's dying "Promise me...." thing...but I'd already guessed that -- and hopefully then wanted to fucking leave him when the world started going to war around them over the whole deal.

But I always have to come down on the side of her no longer being there willingly at the end of it all because pretty much no one, not even a self-centered teenager, could know that she had gotten her father and brother killed...even if she doesn't know the horrific details of it all....and not go home before the rest of her freaking family can die over it.

If she was knocked up at that point and felt that she couldn't out of shame....nope, can't buy that. If you're brazen enough to take off with the married Crown Prince and shack up with him despite being betrothed yourself, one presumes you'd take your knocked up butt home to try and spare the lives of those around you. Up to and including the freaking guy you think you love.

So that's really the only "okay, I'lll add that to the list" piece of information that came out of that chapter. Rhaeghar Targaryen was fondly, but not passionately married. Didn't come as a shock to me and again, they're both jackasses if they didn't realize "Whoa, have we ever made a mistake....let's call the whole thing off!" when people were being roasted alive over it.

Hell, for all I know, Ned Stark discovered Lyanna in 'her bed of blood" (which is such a common word usage around death in or from childbirth that it seems like it is almost impossible for it not to be the case) ...and instead of the usual meaning, it's because girlfriend fell on a handy dagger rather than ever face anyone again, having brought about the death of innocent people and her own loved ones because she and Prince Dreamy Pants couldn't keep their swoony love stored.

So that's really the only thing that stood out to me in the chapter. Barristan uncorking a couple of details about Rhaegar.

Edited January 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Lady S.]

I did note that apparently Elia Martell was the one woman in the Kingdoms that wasn't in love with Rhaegar, but that doesn't exactly shock the hell out of me. Barristan's counsel is interesting enough, but again I suffer from a couple of things in this story and one of them is: I know Dany's not taking off for Westeros any time soon. I also know that there's never been any kind of answer on the "Did Rhaegar Targaryen really take Lyanna Stark, or was she with him willingly?" and that is the one thing that I ended up pondering after I read the chapter.

Really? I don't remember anything about Elia's feelings. I remember Barry said Rhaegar was only fond of her, and that Rhaella was mindful of her duty but she and Aerys definitely didn't love each other, which is really not a surprise since we already heard about their marriage from Jaime.

Also, I'm of the belief that Rhaegar and Lyanna running away together was not just about swoony love. Lyanna did swoon for Rhaegar and was very flattered by his attention but mostly I think she wanted an escape from her own arranged marriage and may have behaved less recklessly otherwise. Rhaegar, otoh, is known for being loved but not really for being a hopeless romantic himself. We know from Dany's HotU vision of him and Elia with Aegon that he, for some reason, thought he just had to have a third kid ("The dragon must have three heads"), and as you've pointed out Elia's main characteristic was perpetual frailness. It was said she couldn't go through childbirth again after Aegon, so Rhaegar would have had to look elsewhere if he still wanted baby #3. He probably was attracted to Lyanna from the first when they met at the tourney, but I think it was a healthy womb to carry the Third Dragon Head or the Prince that was Promised or whatever, that he really cared about and that prompted him to run off with Lyanna.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Lady S.

[stillshimpy]

Well Elia Martell hardly ever gets a mention in the books that fails to bring up her health. Barristan didn't address Elia's feelings, he just said Rhaegar was fond of her and she was a good woman. I'm really hoping she wasn't meant to be in love with him, because if she was? Wow, sucked to be her on every known level.

I was hoping the implication was that it wasn't a love match on either side, because I already think Rhaegar is enough of a twerp as it is.

I've detailed why I think Lyanna Stark must have been a piece of work if she was there willingly, and always default to saying that I have to conclude she wasn't because once your dad is being murdered...along with your brother ...one would hope that no teenage dream still looks good once it has cost a goodly chunk of your family their lives. Not to mention: War. Yikes.

So I have to conclude she wasn't there willingly until the story definitively tells me differently. Frankly, if she was still there willingly when Ned found her, then she was Cersei Lannister levels of self-involved.

About the nicest, kindest thing I'm willing to hope for Rhaegar is that he wasn't abandoning and shaming a wife he knew to be in love with him. Sucks enough to be the frail, feminine thing that people were practically clocking her life seconds, hoping she'd kick it and vacate her marital seat on the Throne. Sucks worse to be woman who will end up being the victim of The Mountain's savagery.

Again, the story hasn't said one way or another, but I'm hoping that it was fondness on both sides, vs. Fondness matched with besotted, romantic love, because the poor woman is already the poster child for "Women are Victimized in Patriarchal Societies" . So yeah, I dearly hope she wasn't in love with the guy, because it already sucks enough for about five people to be Elia Martell. Here's hoping that she wasn't sitting around with a baby at her breast with a shattered heart when The Mountain came calling.

That's not even mentioning that "Oh and your mad father-in-law is holding you hostage to guarantee Dorne's continued good behavior" of it all.

Bronte characters have better luck than that.

Edited January 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[bobbybuilderton]

Just based on the fact that Hizdahr in the show is kind of a nonentity for Daenerys to direct excessive hate towards, I'd say his book version is pretty different. It's easy to be different from nothing. On a more serious note, he was --strangely-- made more sympathetic in the show. I think his motives are fairly unclear in the books, an ambiguity that his character lacks in the show. There are people who have expressed their differences more eloquently and I will defer to their writing when I find them

[Lady S.]

Well Elia Martell hardly ever gets a mention in the books that fails to bring up her health. Barristan didn't address Elia's feelings, he just said Rhaegar was fond of her and she was a good woman. I'm really hoping she wasn't meant to be in love with him, because if she was? Wow, sucked to be her on every known level.

I was hoping the implication was that it wasn't a love match on either side, because I already think Rhaegar is enough of a twerp as it is.

Well, yes, that's something to hope for, but I just don't think there's much implication there one way or the other. Barry has good reason not to mention her feelings if they were stronger than Rhaegar's. Dany doesn't want to hear that Rhaegar was a dick, and Barristan is still disinclined to badmouth any of the Targs to the point that he's physically uncomfortable having to try to talk honestly about Aerys.

[Haleth]

I've said it before that it drives me crazy that no one has the guts to set Dany straight regarding the fantasy that her family are victims. Maybe that will be Tyrion's role.

[nksarmi]

I'm interested in you taking a closer look at Hizdahr Shimpy because what little I've read of the show only threads - Dany's treatment of him is what makes many think she is going down the Mad King path.

And all I could think when viewing season five was "no, that isn't how it happens." I swear he was a more energetic, jovial character in the books. I remember him proposing to her several times and having this "just do what I ask - I really do know best" attitude and a confidence that she was going to come around to his way of thinking sooner or later. His show counterpart is practically a mouse being hunted by a dragon. It's a bit of overkill the difference between them.

I'm curious if my recollections match what you are reading of if I'm mixing things up.

[Terra Nova]

Show watchers may get the Mad Queen vibe solely from the scene where Dany roasts some nobleman because she's upset.

In the books, on the other hand, we already had in three different chapters the rumors surrounding Daenerys, and while exaggerated, they are all based on true facts: I'm of the opinion that, regardless of her actual mental sanity, Book!Dany will be vastly perceived as a Mad Queen (well, she already is!).

But Hizdahr on the show is in a really bad place, so much that book readers dubbed him Hizdahr zo Sansa (just look at how the marriage proposal goes differently):

https://40.media.tumblr.com/6c505068a7627b3fce75b1db415fcc71/tumblr_nrhs3bUat31sq0qieo1_500.jpg

That being said, I really liked the show version of Hizdahr: he was a nice character, with more depth and sense than the average, especially considered some really under-developed examples in the last season (*coff coff* Sand Snakes)

Edited January 10, 2016 by Terra Nova

[mac123x]

And yet, while I wouldn't want some poor kid to be killed in retaliation, once Dany decided she would have taken hostages with the threat of killing them if the murders continued, she should have gone all the way through.

As despicable Tywin Lannister was, he was right about empty threats being counterproductive, and at this point the diplomatic approach is well beyond reach for Dany.

Nice parallel with [mumble] Frey putting Edmure Tully up on the scaffold every day... then taking him down again at night.

About the nicest, kindest thing I'm willing to hope for Rhaegar is that he wasn't abandoning and shaming a wife he knew to be in love with him. Sucks enough to be the frail, feminine thing that people were practically clocking her life seconds, hoping she'd kick it and vacate her marital seat on the Throne. Sucks worse to be woman who will end up being the victim of The Mountain's savagery.

Rhaegar seems to have been obsessed with the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, e.g., that story about how he was a little bookworm until he read something that told him he had to be a knight. Based on the HoTU vision, some fans have theorized that Elia believed it too, and willingly went along with Rhaegar's plan to take a second wife in order to get that third kid. I can sort of buy that since Elia was married to the dude for years and could have been convinced (or brainwashed) into sharing his fanaticism.

Some take the theory further, and say that Lyanna was also a true-believer in the PtwP prophecy. I find that a bit of a stretch, since she was a Northerner and didn't really know Rhaegar when she was taken. Maybe she went all Patty Hearst after months of captivity in the (ironically named) Tower of Joy.

[stillshimpy]

Well, yes, that's something to hope for, but I just don't think there's much implication there one way or the other. Barry has good reason not to mention her feelings if they were stronger than Rhaegar's. Dany doesn't want to hear that Rhaegar was a dick, and Barristan is still disinclined to badmouth any of the Targs to the point that he's physically uncomfortable having to try to talk honestly about Aerys.

Okay, but this is the only time anyone has weighed in in either direction about the feelings of anyone involved in a union that Rhaegar ditched. He also gave Lyanna Stark those stupid roses in front of god and everyone, including Elia. So absent any information at all about how she felt about him, but knowing that he did not love her, I'm just going to stick with assuming the feeling was mutual because I've no reason to believe otherwise and Rhaegar's actions -- the rose thing in front of everyone -- would hopefully indicate he was aware that his wife wasn't in love with him either.

Well, yes, that's something to hope for, but I just don't think there's much implication there one way or the other. Barry has good reason not to mention her feelings if they were stronger than Rhaegar's. Dany doesn't want to hear that Rhaegar was a dick, and Barristan is still disinclined to badmouth any of the Targs to the point that he's physically uncomfortable having to try to talk honestly about Aerys.

I haven't gotten to anything that indicates that he was obsessed with that prophecy, but why would he assume that Elia couldn't have a third child? Was that somewhere in the story?

I'm actually willing to believe that the were mutually fond of, if romantically indifferent to one another and that Elia, being from Dorne just told him to go forth and take paramours, partly due to her failing health. I don't even think that would be unusual for the crown prince (or king) to do when Elia is sitting around with ye olde heir and spare...well, I guess only one male heir.

Edited January 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Also, sorry, I got distracted by texting with my son about Making a Murderer. He just watched it and proving, once again, that we are related, nearly had an outrage inspired stroke.

Anyway! I read Jon's most recent chapter with Rattleshirt pretty neatly kicking Jon's ass in the practice yard. Kind of neat to know that he is formidable as a warrior, I suppose.

But Jon getting that letter about (not that he would know) Fake Arya having to marry freaking Ramsay was painful enough -- and again becomes even more painful knowing the general direction of the story -- but then there was the whole "Melisandre looked like Ygritte glamour thing" , Jon remembering Dalla's words to him about sorcery being a sword with no hilt...and then Melisandre's ever confusing ability/not ability to see things in the flames.

So I'm assuming that people wonder if it is actually Sansa he sees, as Littlefinger talked about her wearing grey for her wedding, because we know Ramsay is actually marrying Jeyne Poole (poor Jeyne Poole) . I don't think...??....Jeyne Poole will run off to the Night's Watch, but I suppose it is possible? The horse described sounded at least a little bit like Theon's from the earlier Moat Cailin episode. Or you know, the dying thing seemed to fit that.

So it was more than a little intriguing that either Melisandre sees Sansa booking it toward the Wall , or she sees Jeyne Poole, but doesn't know that Jeyne isn't really his sister. OR...Arya is actually going to the Wall and beyond all that? How can she be offering to boff Jon to make shadows if she actually thinks he's a Stark? Or do I have that wrong and anyone can help her produce a shadow....thing?

Very twisty, convoluted chapter and that's leaving beside the entire thing about the ranging party Jon just sent out, what Melisandre's always-left-of-entirely-correct flame visions really mean and the weirdness that was Ghost's behavior.

That entire chapter was an exercise in "What the fuck is going on?" and considering it was fairly short by the standards of Martin's books, a metric ton of things seemed to happen in rapid succession.

Edited January 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Terra Nova]

There's a nice detail in Jon's chapter, which of course may mean nothing at all, I'll put it under spoiler just in case Shimpy doesn't want to read it (it's perfectly safe tho!):

in Ramsay's letter, while all the lords put their signature, the Umber only draws a crude giant... but as we know, this is Whoresbane, the one sent in his youth to the Citadel to become a maester, and being literate may be a good start for that... is the guy playing some game of his own?

And now, time to gloat again! (not for Shimpy)

Davos chapter incoming, aw yiss

Edited January 10, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

Well I fucking love a fat man, that's for sure.  

 

This is the only time I cried reading anything in these books.  When Wyman Manderly proved that really was the most important sentence in the chapter where Davos was sentenced to die and that any kid who had learned the sacred importance of an Oath was reflecting her parents values.  

 

I'm sure it will all go spectacularly to shit, and I don't know where the cannibals live in this story so I'm not sure where the hell Rickon is, but I love the Manderlys.  

 

I know that anything good that ever happens in this story is only temporary and poor Lord Manderly is likely to see everyone he loves turned into a lampshade for having displayed human decency and loyalty, but that was a good chapter. 

[Autarch]

I haven't gotten to anything that indicates that he was obsessed with that prophecy, but why would he assume that Elia couldn't have a third child? Was that somewhere in the story?

Besides the story of Rhaegar and the scrolls, I think this hinges on Dany's vision of him in the House of the Undying:

“There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads."

This is after Dany sees him with baby Aegon and Elia. As for why Elia possibly couldn't have another child, it's been mentioned more than once, by Oberyn and others, that Elia's health was very fragile.

Of course this also assumes that the Prince who was Promised and the Three Headed Dragon are interrelated.

[Terra Nova]

Yes, yeeees (I was patrolling the topic 'cause the hell if I missed this before going to bed!)

Wyman for the wyn! Wylla for the wyn! Between this, the tales about the heart tree Davos heard in prison, the mountain clans rushing down the hills howling in the night and Umber playing dumb, you really feel that there's still fight left in the North; so of course nothing survived on the show ^^'

The cannibals are in Skagos, where it is fabled that unicorns live (a.k.a. the goat with the horn Shaggydog was fighting in Jon's dream). I'm not spoiler-tagging it because I'm sure it's been said previously in the books, so much that the first time I read it I got it was Skagos. It's only apt for it to be the place where Osha would go, since Skagosi are considered much closer to the Free Folk than the other Northeners.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Terra Nova

[WSmith84]

Glad to see you love the Manderleys shimpy. It is a crime that they were left out of the show.

One of my personal hates is the 'Elia was OK with Rhaegar and Lyanna, because she's Dornish and/or believes in prophecy' theories. The worst are 'Elia was OK with Rhaegar taking Lyanna as a second wife' and 'Elia helped them elope.' These theories exist mostly to try and make Rhaegar and Lyanna look less selfish. Personally I hope that GRRM doesn't make her such a doormat, but it may be so.

Edited January 10, 2016 by WSmith84

[Autarch]

Skagos is mentioned in the Sam chapter in Feast where he takes off from Eastwatch:

 

"The island sat at the mouth of the Bay of Seals, massive and mountainous, a stark and forbidding land peopled by savages. They lived in caves and grim mountain fastnesses, Sam had read, and rode great shaggy unicorns to war. Skagos meant "stone" in the Old Tongue. The Skagosi named themselves the stoneborn, but their fellow northmen called them Skaggs and liked them little. Only a hundred years ago Skagos had risen in rebellion. Their revolt had taken years to quell and claimed the life of the Lord of Winterfell and hundreds of his sworn swords. Some songs said the Skaggs were cannibals; supposedly their warriors ate the hearts and livers of the men they slew. In ancient days, the Skagosi had sailed to the nearby isle of Skane, seized its women, slaughtered its men, and ate them on a pebbled beach in a feast that lasted for a fortnight. Skane remained unpeopled to this day."

[jellyroll2]

Ohhhh yes!! Finally got to Manderly's badassery and the true meaning of "the north remembers". You have no idea how pissed people were that this was not in season 5. This and that Jon chapter you just mentioned is the beginning of you realizing that most of what you saw for the north in the show is pretty much AU. THIS is when you start to see the awesome that is the northern plot line in the books.

Plus not for shimpy

lol at her mention of Rattleshirt beating Jon. Oh honey, you have no idea....

[Delta1212]

Wyman Manderly is easily my favorite character introduced in this book (ok, he had a brief appearance earlier in the series, but that doesn't really count), and now I can finally say that without it being an implicit spoiler as far as why I would like that guy.

It was sorely disappointing when he didn't show up in season 5, partially because he is awesome, partially because the only people on the show who embodied the whole "The North remembers" thing were a couple of servants who all basically died before they even had a chance to try to do anything to support any of the Starks, and partially because there is a guy standing behind Robb during the Red Wedding on the show who is clearly meant to be a Manderly. He's got the weight, the mustache and the mermaid pinned to his chest.

They set up Wyman

the Pieman

in two different ways in season three and then never paid it off.

[Terra Nova]

@jellyroll

well, Shimpy said right from the start that she found 'Mance' wimpering before the burning out of character, and hopefully she will remember 'Rattleshirt' saying 'I can sing a pretty song if you want BUT KEEP YOUR CLOAKS AWAY FROM ME!'. And anyway, next chapter is Melisandre's

@Delta:

the actor playing Manderly's son even had lines, originally, and I think a couple of scenes with Catelyn in order to establish him. All ended up on the cutting room's floor and after that the whole subplot just disappeared from the series.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Terra Nova

[Haleth]

Wyman Manderly is awesome. The North remembers.

[bobbybuilderton]

Shit like having irrelevant old people saying the north remembers, and having tyrion say "the northeners will never forget" and nothing happening from it is why I am convinced they just don't get why certain moments are powerful. The fucking nerve of having (season 5 spoiler)

"the north remembers" old lady only for her to be flayed

is a pretty dick move imo. Why not just have her show support for Sansa some other way? Why take something genuinely hopeful and turn it into despair? I know it's generally frowned upon to take shots at the creators of the show rather than the show itself, but when things like that happen, repeatedly, it's difficult for me to not form certain conclusions about the people at the helm. Prior to season 5, they referenced Sansa's plot from season 5 as being part of a plotline they "loved" from the books, but then the only part that remains of it is the rape (now with 100% more main character, so that it hurts more!) and misery. I find it odd that it's expected for something like that to not reflect poorly upon the ones who made those decisions. Idk whatever, can't wait for the next chapter. I felt vindicated after reading it, much like a certain chapter in the Harry Potter series

Edited January 10, 2016 by bobbybuilderton

[stillshimpy]

It was funny too, because I was chatting with Mya on Facebook the other day and flat out told her I wouldn't believe Davos was dead until there was a POV chapter from him detailing the axe blade and then another of someone else watching him die, because I couldn't believe that Martin would really just give away a character death that blatantly a full book before it happened.  In Feast they outright get word that Davos is dead and it just didn't seem at all possible that he'd directly spoil the death of POV character like that.  

 

Now mind you, I didn't even come close to guessing that Manderly would know Rickon Stark was alive, and I didn't put any importance on Summer seeing a man in the Weirwood at Winterfell either.  I though they were seeing guards atop the wall, not someone literally in the tree.  And it was the line "The North Remembers" that made me start crying.  

 

So that was all about fifty times more awesome than I was expecting. 

 

Also, when the chapter opened with Davos practically being introduced to the axe blade, I definitely had a "Well....shiiiiiiiiiiit" reaction and thought I was just wrong.  

 

That was a reading tonic in an often too grim tale.  I know it won't mean puppies, roses , justice and rainbows ...because I'm not new to the world or the series...but still, very satisfying.  

 

Season five

particularly as a pay off to the insanely lame use of The North Remembers in the show. In my customary fashion, I had a fit and practically frothed at the mouth about how that it did Sansa a fat lot of good to have the poor old, skinned crone saying that.  That the North remembered but apparently that didn't mean anything about acting on it. In the show The North Remembers only brings about tears of frustration

 

Good chapter, pretty chapter!! Have a treat!! Who's a good chapter??  That one is! 

Edited January 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

One of my personal hates is the 'Elia was OK with Rhaegar and Lyanna, because she's Dornish and/or believes in prophecy' theories. The worst are 'Elia was OK with Rhaegar taking Lyanna as a second wife' and 'Elia helped them elope.' These theories exist mostly to try and make Rhaegar and Lyanna look less selfish. Personally I hope that GRRM doesn't make her such a doormat, but it may be so.

 

That's only going to bother me if she did it for love.  Then it's vomit-worthy to me.  If Elia signed off on the "Yeah, go stick that thing in someone else, I'm done" because she was fond of Rhaegar in that "eh, yeah sure, for my family I'll marry him, but it's a business arrangement" type of way.  I agree though, it would be rather pathetic if she was just so in love that "anything for you, dearest" and I had forgotten about Rhaegar in the House of the Undying visions, but I'm not really sure that would translate to an obsession.  

 

I've actually sort of gotten too big a dose of "Girls will do anything for the boys!" in this story as it is.  Sansa being silly about Joffrey didn't survive knowing him on any intimate level.   I could go on there, but that is part of the reason I just wouldn't mind at all if it is eventually revealed that Lyanna Stark was not so wooed by all things flowery, poetic and fairy tale related that she willingly set a Kingdom to war and again....the detail of getting her own father killed (and that's just not even touching the hideousness that happened to her older brother) ....just...no.   Won't buy it until I'm forced to in the company store and hopefully that will be never. 

 

I'm interested in you taking a closer look at Hizdahr Shimpy because what little I've read of the show only threads - Dany's treatment of him is what makes many think she is going down the Mad King path.

 

Oooooh, okay. Interesting.  I don't think I was actually aware that that was something that had been discussed.  I spent a lot of season five in a state of being ....really irked by the story, but that isn't one of the areas of concern. 

 

Season five

when Dany threatens to burn Hizzy and the Wise Masters or whomever, basically the highborn of Mereen, she's doing so to try and stop the slaughter of the Unsullied and people she cares about. Yes, she threatened Hizzy et al with being burned alive in the show, but I didn't get a Mad King vibe from that, I got a "Do not fuck with me and if you do?  I will kill you and end your genetic lines for good' vibe.  Plus, it's key that Dany doesn't actually kill any of them, so it kind of read as a bluff, vs a deadly threat.  But I guess don't necessarily have a problem with bullying your pro-slavery enemies in that manner.  

 

However, I definitely have gotten the "Wrong Side of the Targ Coin" vibe from Dany and that was when Viserys was killed in front of her and maybe it is how Clarke decided to play the scene, but she seemed insane in that moment.  She was intrigued, like killing Viserys was interesting experiment and she was completely emotionally detached from it too.  Combine that with Lloyd actually rendering Viserys in human terms and make him rather pathetic in that moment and it gave me the creeps the way she said, "Fire cannot harm a Dragon" .  

 

Now that you mention it season five

I guess I could also see Clarke's same delivery style for that moment when she threatens Hizzy and crew and puts her hand on his shoulder, but the key for me is....she doesn't have them killed and again...Hizzy is actually quite ambiguous in the show, at least he was to me, he clearly really only cared about having the fighting pits opened.  He had no interest at all in marrying Dany and in fact, I thought he might be gay, and truly when he tried to help her when all hell broke loose in the fighting pits...after having repeatedly maneuvered her to get her precisely into the position...it came as a surprise to me that he proved himself to be on her side, in the seconds before dying.  But that was my reaction to the story at the time.

 

Hizzy in the book fits all of that.  If anything, he's displayed a good sense of humor in the book.  

 

One thing though, I thought the actor they cast as Hizzy was really handsome and he had such a great voice and so when reading the book, I was surprised that they had cast rather faithfully, while ditching the Star Wars hair. 

[sunflower]

 

you really feel that there's still fight left in the North; so of course nothing survived on the show

 

Yeah, D&D are too focused on Kings Landing and Lannisters for my taste.  I'm more partial to the Starks/North/Stannis end of the tale.  

[mac123x]

The cannibals are in Skagos, where it is fabled that unicorns live (a.k.a. the goat with the horn Shaggydog was fighting in Jon's dream). I'm not spoiler-tagging it because I'm sure it's been said previously in the books, so much that the first time I read it I got it was Skagos. It's only apt for it to be the place where Osha would go, since Skagosi are considered much closer to the Free Folk than the other Northeners.

 

That's one of my favorite chapters in the book.  However, my "how, exactly?" alarm goes off at Wex's story.  He followed Osha and Rickon, and stayed downwind so Shaggydog wouldn't smell him.  Okay, I can buy that.  But he followed them from Winterfell all the way to the east coast?  That's quite a little journey.  And how did he know they went to Skaagos, an off-shore island?  Did he overhear Osha booking passage, or discussing it with Rickon? 

 

Regarding the Mad Queen stuff, season 5 spoiler: 

She did feed them an extra.  Clip.  About 3:35 the look on her face is a little ... off putting.  Plus her utter non-reaction to the fact that her dragons are ripping a dead man in half and eating them...

[bobbybuilderton]

Your objection to Lyanna going with/staying with him for love presumes that she had all the details about what was happening to her family. Or that she could leave at all after she went with him. What most likely happened is she went with Rhaegar for love initially, being an impulsive teen(she is compared to Arya often), then when she realized how it'd all gone to shit and Rhaegar was just a lil bit crazy, she was too deep in it and couldn't leave. The kingsguard was guarding her when Ned found her. Hell, we don't even know for sure that she was given news at all after she ran off with him. They didn't exactly have the internet. Rhaegar could have refused to tell her anything, or flat out lied.

[Haleth]

Or told her everything but prevented her from leaving since she was carrying his child.

[stillshimpy]

Or that she could leave at all after she went with him.

 

No.  I actually didn't discount either of those as possibilities.  As I said earlier, the only way I can accept that she went with him willingly is if she was then prevented from leaving when the shit started going down.  And yeah, it's not a big presumption that she had to know about the War, what with Rhaegar fighting in it and all.   

 

Season five

oooooh, thank you for the clip.  Yeah, that's right.  She did roast an extra and was really eerily calm about it.  I'll check out the clip.  But again, I guess Dany being sort of batshit wasn't new to me, because I'd been saying that since the Viserys scene. So that might be why I just didn't really put a lot of emphasis on that moment, I'd been far more wigged by the "fire cannot harm a dragon" thing.

Edited January 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[chandraReborn]

I'm of the opinion that Lyanna had a major crush on Rhaegar and didn't particularly like Robert, so she decided to lose her virginity and render herself un-marriageable. She ran off with Rhaegar probably because she figured there would be no repercussions--her father would probably demand the head of whoever 'abducted' his daughter, unless they were the Crown Prince. But she didn't know (and who could blame her?) that the Mad King would be crazy enough to execute her father. And I'm also of the opinion that Rhaegar had given the order not to tell her about her father and brother's death, since he feared the news might cause her to lose the baby.

[nksarmi]

Regarding Dany's odd reaction on the show to her brother burning - what I took away from that in season one wasn't that she was on the edge of crazy but that she was utterly fascinated to learn that her brother wasn't the "dragon" after all.  I also got this sense that she was having her whole world rocked as she realized that her husband was actually much stronger than her brother whom she was raised to believe was invincible.  And I watched that season before I read the books so that is what I took away purely from the actress and what happens later in the season.  I later wondered if she realized in that moment that she was the dragon or if she only thought her son was.

 

Dany season five

I read a little bit of debate in the show only threads about Dany turning evil because she was basically playing Geoffrey to Hizdarh's Sansa - especially in the proposal scene.  I was having a really hard time with it because all I could think was "no, it's his idea in the books and she resists it." But I admit that Dany of the show seems stronger to me than Dany of the books.  So maybe that's what D&D were going for, but they just ended up reminding everyone of Geoffrey instead.  In the books, I don't see any reason to question Dany's sanity - just her decision making skills. 

 

Oh and as others have said - welcome to the real meaning of "the North remembers!"  I'm telling you between what should have been Doran's powerful "Fire and Blood" speech and the real power of "the North remembers" - D&D's choices for season five boggle the mind at times. 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2016 by nksarmi

[Alayne Stone]

The North Remembers chapter is one of my favorite chapters from the entire series.

 

And now you are beginning to realize why Ramsay of all people uttering that line was so insulting. And now you're starting to get an idea for why we were all insistent on you reading The Red Wedding and just driving home the fact that "no, really, the fact that so many Northerners were murdered besides just the Starks is important." I'm really glad you ended up liking this chapter and I'm glad it came as an utter surprise to you.

 

I love the Manderlys. They are one of my favorite minor houses.

[mac123x]

I love the Manderlys. They are one of my favorite minor houses.

 

Me too.  They're kind of the Hightowersor Redwynes of the North.  Not the actual lead family in the area, but very wealthy and not afraid to use it. 

[Dev F]

Wow, so much to discuss in the most recent chapters!

 

On Penny:

Penny is one of my favorite characters in Dance, so the way the showrunners decided to handle that element of Tyrion's storyline had an immediate impact on my enjoyment, even before season 5 started to air.

 

See, I have a very up-and-down relationship with Game of Thrones, but from the end of season 1 to the beginning of season 4, it followed a pretty regular pattern: Between seasons, as the new casting information and preliminary spoilers started to roll in, I would get really excited about the upcoming season, and that feeling would last through at least the first half of the new season. Then, as the season went on and the weird, crummy adaptation choices began to accumulate, I would start to sour on the show a little bit. There'd be a resurgence of enthusiasm with the late-season "big event" episode, but then the finale would end on an awkward and confusing note, and I'd end the season really disappointed in the show. Then a few months later the casting and spoilers for the next season would start up again, and I'd start to get excited about the show again.

 

Then came season 4, which as I've mentioned was the only season of the show after the first that I enjoyed pretty much unreservedly, largely because I thought it ended on such a strong note. I was really looking forward to season 5, and eager for the spoilers for next season to stoke my enthusiasm further.

 

Then it became pretty clear that (season 5 spoilers)

the show was not doing a casting call for Penny, one of the most significant and interesting characters in Tyrion's storyline, but they were casting Areo Hotah, whose role in the Dorne storyline amounts to "Axe with a GoPro strapped to it."

 

That's when I knew we were in for a bumpy season. :(

 

On the Meereen storyline:

I actually thought the series was pretty successful at streamlining the politics of Meereen for most of season 5. Sure, they cut like a million events and characters, but Dany still had a strong group of advisers, each with his/her own background and perspective that offered a window into the warring political forces at war in the city.

 

But as the season went on, (season 5 spoilers)

they kept taking advisers out one by one. First Dany executes Mossador, and we lose our personal connection to the population of slaves under Dany's care. Then we lose Ser Barristan, and with him the high-minded counterbalance to Daario's "You're a conqueror, so just be a conqueror" bloody-mindedness. And finally, Hizdahr is assassinated, and we lose not only our only representative of the Wise Masters Dany is struggling to keep under her thumb, but also the only remaining link to any native group in Meereen.

 

(season 5 spoilers continued)

So when Dany flies the coop in the final episode, we have her remaining advisers sitting around having a largely one-sided debate (because there's no one left to argue different sides) about a threat within the city that has become completely theoretical (because there's no one left to embody the angry forces on the other side, just faceless stuntmen in shiny masks).

 

I almost wish that (more season 5 spoilers)

episode 9 had ended with Hizdahr being revealed as a leader of the Harpies and escaping to plot another day, because then maybe we'd at least have some understanding of who the fuck the Harpies are and why they're doing what they're doing.

 

On the North Remembers:

I've never been as enamored of Lord Manderly as most other readers. I mean, I enjoy his scenes, and I appreciate the world-building details about the one urban lord of the North. But it's one of those cases where I feel like Martin's love of minor characters and new places leads him away from the story I signed on for and the characters I care about; instead of being a story about how Davos negotiates the power dynamics of the North or something like that, the focus is on this guy we've barely met pretending to be a jerk and then revealing himself to be a badass, and Davos is just sort of along for the ride.

 

So I was actually optimistic when (season 5 spoilers)

the showrunners decided to focus the storyline in the North on Sansa Stark rather than some Northern lords we'd never seen before. But what I hoped is that she would take on some elements of the Manderly storyline -- that she'd be the one who smiled at her enemies to their faces and then plotted behind their backs, perhaps using what Littlefinger had taught her to sway the Northern lords to her side.

 

Instead, (season 5 spoilers continued)

her storyline was about her becoming a poor, pitiable victim again, and all she ever accomplished was convincing a supporting character to push a minor character off a ledge. It's like the Meereen storyline, but much worse: in an attempt to keep things streamlined, the producers made things too small, and basically stripped out all the larger social and political underpinnings of their story. And then it's just meaningless soap opera, hardly something worthy of an Emmy for Best Series (grumble grumble).

[Terra Nova]

Regarding Dany roasting a master: the main problem in that scene for me it's her flat-out saying: 'maybe you are all guilty... or maybe you are all innocent' and then she roasts a guy anyway.

And later in the pits she displays the paternalistic white man behavior that she knows better than her fredmen, and when Hizdahr calls her out she resorts to threats of burning Meereen to the ground if she decides it's the best for her people, or those who will survive the arson anyway.

It's not flat-out 'mad', but I can see why people would get that idea out of the scene. Surely she has a morbid fascination with fire.

[dragonbone]

On Dario:

 

I really see Dario as Danny's inner voice.  He's saying kill them all at the wedding..And the real reason Danny is horrified by this is because she's tempted to.  She steadfastly refuses to be a "Butcher Queen"... But we all know that the major theme of the story is that high minded intentions will be punished severely.  GRRM has created another noble minded, fair, honorable player and it's totally intentional to remind you of how he dealt with the first good guy he introduced.  But Danny has a dark side too.  Maybe she and Viserys and Aerys  are really cut from the same cloth.  Also the Red Wedding worked.  Darios advice is reasonable here as the strategy has already been proven effective in this story. 

 

On Rhaegar + Lyanna running off

 

GRRM mentions time and time again that the way to marry a woman north of the wall is to steal her.  He also mentions the story of Bael the Bard who asked the Lord of Winterfell for a flower, just as the the blue roses were blooming.  Of course Bael really wanted Stark's daughter.  Whenever Lyanna's story comes up the blue roses are mentioned, a parallel too strong to ignore.  Rhaegar was inspired by Bael at some point.

 

 

 

 

 

[WindyNights]

The Red Wedding didn't work because all it did was inflame the North for a little while. The Northerners are aching to kill Lannisters and Frey.

That's why it's a horrible idea for Daenerys to murder her wedding guests and no one will treat with her in good faith from then on.

[Terra Nova]

no one will treat with her in good faith from then on.

 

I beg to disagree: she already blew her good faith with her little trick in Astapor (hence the rumors that she's an 'oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys') and later with the night attack on Yunkai while a truce was established (hence the 'she lies as easily as she breathes, she has broken truces'). And because of this her envoys are now killed under the peace banner.

The problem with Slaver's Bay is that Daenerys's strategy at the beginning was one that prioritized a quick grab over long term effects: if she was planning to get an army and leave immediately, then stealing one and breaking truce would have destroyed her reputation, but she wouldn't have stayed long enough to face the consequences. And yet she stayed, and now leaving is not an option anymore.

 

Same happened in Meereen: if you plan to stay, it's better not to antagonize the local nobility, so no crucifixion should have taken place (like Southern U.S didn't face a general purging and mass executions after the war). If you want to overthrow the government and then leave, kill all the masters, as she did in Astapor. She did neither, and now she's stuck in a city who resents her, whose noblemen have been slighted, hurt and humiliated but not completely undone. Machiavelli put it right: you can flatter an enemy and keep him on your good side, or strike him: but in the latter case, you have to strike with full force, one single deadly blow, or your enemy will survive and have a chance to strike you back.

 

 

The Red Wedding, far from a slight to the North alone, is a break of one of the most important rules of the Westerosi society, i.e. that guests and hosts do not have to fear each other; the consequence (what Daenerys is now experiencing) is what Steven Attewell said:

 

 

I would add something else here: the Red Wedding makes any kind of political agreement more difficult to achieve, be it marriage alliances or peace treaties. How does anyone trust that Tywin, Bolton, or Frey will keep their word on ANYTHING if they’re willing to violate the oldest and most sacred customs of Westeros, one of the few taboos that protect people in a dangerous world? In our history, we put this custom as the responsibility of not just the gods but the King of the Gods (Zeus Xenios, Odin the one-eyed wanderer who shows up unknown at the door, etc.) in order to make sure it wasn’t violated, because once you’ve violated it you’re back to war of all-against-all.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[stillshimpy]

By the way, at 3:30 a.m. I had my regularly scheduled "Wake up and think of something, then try to ignore it and go back to sleep" moment, and what I thought of was that Jon Snow was the one who ultimately saved Davos's life and sent him off after Rickon.   He was the one who explained why Stannis needed to capture Deepwood Motte and how. Jon was the one who sent Stannis off with instructions on how to win over the Mountain Clans (because, for real, it was never going to naturally occur to Stannis to be sociable as a way of winning support).  

 

So that's a nice layer in that.  Dev F, I kind of can't agree on your objections to the side-trip, because it was a necessary one.  For all that Davos is Stannis's most loyal subject, he's also the person who has the most inherent problems with the things Stannis does.  To keep Stannis's plot moving forward Martin only had a few choices:  remove Davos from Stannis's equation for a bit (which is the one he chose), kill him (which is the one he's yet to deploy and should only be used when a character has fully served the narrative purpose) or c.  just ignore that facet of Davos's character and work around it.  C. is generally a hack's choice. 

 

But it also paid off something that I was glad to see:  For kind of a long time I've been complaining about Ned and Cat both having that silly "for my own child, would I not have done the same thing?" about Bran being pushed out a window because Cersei and Jaime...blah blah blah, blah blah...and that drove me a little bit nuts, because it was trying too hard to justify that moment.  It never had a lot of emotional authenticity to it.  It felt very false and brittle and frankly was the kind of thing people expect from the fantasy genre:  emotional constructs that are tinny and unrealistic.  

 

So it was kind of cool that Martin figured out a way to put that exact impulse into play, but in a less two dimensional capacity.  The Ned and Cat moment pretended, and worse still had the characters pretending, that they could view that moment as if it existed in a vacuum.  Not the slimy stuff that led up to (treasonous, incestuous affairs, the inherent betrayal to a King in denying him an actual heir....I could go on here for a bit, but you guys all have had these discussion).  The thing with Manderly put that into play in a more believable way:  Manderly would have killed Davos if he'd been discovered, because he'd have no choice in order to save his son.  

 

But it would the choice of last resort, not the problem solving tool and that was the problem with the thing with Bran:  He was seven.  If you can't outwit a seven year old...you haven't gotten away with an incestuous, treasonous affair for ten plus years...because you lack the mental resources. 

 

So it played with that exact sort of thing, but in a more human fashion.  

 

Also, absolutely on the Red Wedding thing.  It's part of why someone like Bolton or Ramsay wouldn't remain in power.  That kind of rule breaking is too threatening to the entire societal structure.   

 

On Rhaegar possibly stealing Lyanna because he was imitating Bael....holy crow, that's a really good explanation and gets Lyanna Stark off the hook, so I'll take it!  You're right, that's a well Martin visits over and over again, so it seems like that could very well be the explanation.  

 

On season five deviations: more later under the bars, because that's kind of a big subject. 

 

On Dany in the books though: you know, I think that she's an example of how high-minded principles aren't necessarily punished, but come with repercussions that, if you don't think them through on a lot of levels, will bite your butt clean in half.  That's what makes power such a sticky wicket, nothing exists in a vacuum or is simplistic.  Slavery = bad is not hard math....but eradicating it from an existing structure comes a whole host of difficulties to overcome and whenever you change the structure upon which a society is built, you better have an actionable plan to address things like: okay, your economy is built on slavery; what will replace it?  

 

Yadda yadda, again, nothing you guys haven't been reading in the books anyway.  Unlike with the Starks and things like Catelyn acting without thinking through her game of chess even close to enough, Martin introduces those elements and is playing them through in a less "Here is a hideous punishment for daring to trying to do what is right" which kind of takes an A, B...Z approach.  Point one leads to point two...leads to ruination.  

 

Daario being representative of the Conquering part of the Ruling brain is kind of fun as a concept, by the way.  He's certainly the guy who seems there to represent challenges to her impulses.  It's kind of fun :-) 

 

ETA:  Also, one of the bigger challenges in a book like this is willing myself to go forward after something emotionally satisfying and good happened.  I mean, that's such a damned rarity in this book series....and I'm not dim, I understand that the likelihood that it will be allowed to stand on any level is low to non-existent...that it's really tempting to just call it a series right there, you know?  "Oh my god, something that wasn't depressing and soul-crushing happened! Something that made me happy happened!" 

 

So after I woke up at 3;30 a.m. , had my GoT thought and went back to sleep, I dreamed that I was in a relationship with an abusive man , who I knew I should leave.   Ha!!! In the dream he was just some person who never appeared, but when I woke up, I was kind of laughing at the way my sleeping brain handled the "okay, as tempting as it is to not get punched in the nose again...."  conundrum. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Which Tyler]

A quick plea.

I'm just catching up after being away for a couple of days, and have been stung a few times.

Could we please consider spoilers for a book that hasn't been released yet, to be spoilers for people who aren't Shimpy?

 

Not everyone has read the preview chapters. Not everyone wants to read them. Those chapters are spoilers for everyone who hasn't read them.

If you can go to the effort of saying "Spoiler (not for Shimpy)" surely you can go as far as "Spoiler (TWOW)"

Edited January 11, 2016 by Which Tyler

[Terra Nova]

an abusive man , who I knew I should leave. 

 

No, believe him, this time it's different, this time he's changed for real! XD

Edited January 11, 2016 by Terra Nova

[John Potts]

I love Manderley for the simple reason: he does what is right, but isn't prepared to get himself or his family killed for doing it. Saying to Davos, "Well, I've officially executed you, but if it gets out, I'll have to kill you for real - nothing personal!" was a level of morality tempered by pragmatism that it's easy to believe.

 

Wouldn't want him to cook dinner for me, though.

 

As for Lyanna, my current hypothesis is that she ran to Rhaegar willingly but didn't realise the Shitstorm it would cause: by the time she got to saying "No pops, it was totally my idea!" her dad and brother were already dead and Robert, Eddard and John Arryn were on the warpath. Rhaegar went, "Too late for that: Once the avalanche has started it's too late to ask the pebbles to vote*." Maybe he thought he couldn't lose because he had destiny on his side.

 

Oh, and one last thing (for now): Tywin never broke Guest Right, because he never offered it. Yes, he was aware of what Lord Frey (and Roose Bolton) were planning, but he didn't betray Robb because he never promised him anything (except death). Having foreknowledge (and indeed, offering tacit approval) is different from doing something yourself, which is why oaths are carefully worded so they say exactly what protection you should (and shouldn't) expect.

 

* In my Head Cannon, he was a fan of Babylon 5!

[Delta1212]

Yeah, Frey broke guest right and Roose is a turncloak (and possibly a king slater himself depending on your perspective on Robb's legitimacy). Tywin is neither, and while I'm sure there are plenty of people who probably look down on rewarding oath breakers for breaking their oaths, I think there's a level of remove there as far as responsibility goes.

And just in general, people tend to take more offense at the act of betrayal than they do at someone on the other side asking you to betray your people. I think most people expect the question to be asked. They also expect their own people to say no. When they say yes, you don't usually blame the person who did the asking as much as the person who consented to perform the betrayal.