S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[stillshimpy]

I truly feel you on that. "Oh God, Littlefinger just told a different version and I believe him more, because lying for a purpose is his gig, not lying for honor."

[90PercentGravity]

If Jon really is Rhaegar's son, then maybe Amon Targaryen would know about it. He does seem to favor the boy.

[stillshimpy]

I don't think Ned would have shared that particular secret with anyone other than another Stark, but who knows?  

 

If the story goes there they are going to have to figure out some way of conveying it rather directly.  It did eventually spill the 'who killed Jon Aerryn?" beans after all.  Even if it still sort of makes me stare with more than a mild case of "what the fuck?"  it's relatively mild.  

 

Besides, I have truly grown to accept that this story strength does not lie in its highly plausible assassination plots.  I have decided to view the laughable quality of them "But....no one could predict that many variables in advance....?"  (like the wine merchant somehow knowing Dany would wander by) as one of the stories intentional devices.  That they are absurd on purpose.  

 

I'm just sticking with that, because I get fewer headaches that way.  

 

However, if they change "Ned Stark's Bastard son" to "Lyanna Stark's bastard son" they are going to need to actually sell that one with a few details.  One would hope.  Unless it will just be a perpetual question, never properly answered, speculated about until we all go mad, turn into Cary Grant and run through the graveyard yelling,  "I'm the son of a sea cook!" and others of us can yell back "And I'm a teapot" then we can celebrate our love old movies with Grog and Boris Karloff impersonations.  

[gingerella]

This is backfiring on Tommen, her sweet boy. Note, Sparrows, it's not a crime to be born. Children of incest are not the child's fault. So if he gets killed for this or imprisoned or anything, that's just a heaping load of crap.

Well, if we take it in that direction, isn't it more of a threat to Cersei and Jamie if people are hissing about Tommen being the child of incest publicly? I mean, it's not his fault, it's his parents fault so yeah, bitch hasn't thought this through very well, has she? She is basically saying, "hey, let's reactivate this religious moral police squad and enforce it on those who engage in immoral behaviors...oh, wait, incest isn't immoral if you do it with your sibling, is it?!"

 

Janjan, believing anything LF says? Hahahahahaha...

[WhiteStumbler]

"I'm the son of a sea cook!"

Is there an A&OL / Theon parallel?

 

Ramsay: Tonight, we are taking care of Theon. And just for him we'll have something special. I plan on using the Dreadfort method.

Dr. Einstein: No, Ramsay! Not the Dreadfort method, please! Two hours...

[stillshimpy]

Hee!!!  It's too long!!! 

 

 

 

Well, if we take it in that direction, isn't it more of a threat to Cersei and Jamie if people are hissing about Tommen being the child of incest publicly? I mean, it's not his fault, it's his parents fault so yeah, bitch hasn't thought this through very well, has she? She is basically saying, "hey, let's reactivate this religious moral police squad and enforce it on those who engage in immoral behaviors...oh, wait, incest isn't immoral if you do it with your sibling, is it?!"

 

What really surprised me is that Cersei set Tommen up for that entire encounter.  When he goes in, all bluster and posturing, telling his mother that Loras has to be set free, she says that he's right, but she's not holding him.   Go and speak to the High Sparrow.  

 

She sent Tommen to speak to the High Sparrow, knowing he wouldn't be able to.  She sent him into that situation.  What if Tommen had lost his head and called for violence?  I mean, forget the hissing crowd, he was the only person not holding a sword on those steps.  

 

Cersei's plan to drive a wedge between Tommen and Margaery could have gotten him killed in more ways than one.  

 

By the way, I rewatched and on rewatch, Littlefinger's look didn't look pitying or "Oh, you poor kid, is that what you were told?" it just looked like he was assessing something and I'm not sure what.  

 

The story Petyr tells has the wreath of roses being placed in Lyanna's lap in front of Ned, in front of Robert Baratheon , in front of everyone.  Petyr asks, "How many tens of thousands of people had to die because Rhaegar Targaryen chose your Aunt?"  and that's when Sansa counters with "Yes, he chose her.  Then he kidnapped and raped her."  

 

So either the look on his face is "Ah, yes, that is what you would have been told, I suppose" but it also could be "True, and a fair point.  It wasn't your Aunt's fault and that's a reasonable rejoinder."  Maybe noting that Sansa isn't easily led to the conclusions he wants her to get to.  He could be noting that she's not just hanging on his every word, she's arguing back with Stark words.  

 

I don't know.  Like I said elsewhere, the story has gotten annoyingly cutesy with this shit.  

Edited May 6, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

Another thing (along with JS's parents) that is suddenly everywhere this season? Greyscale and the "Stone Men". I don't recall that it was even mentioned what had scarred Shireen's face in prior seasons, let alone that there are colonies of Stone Men near Valaria.

 

ETA: And I was interested to hear that the doll that infected Shireen with greyscale came from Dorne. I can understand the bad blood between the Lannisters and the Martells, but why would the Martells try to kill / maim a Baratheon princess?

Edited May 6, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[gingerella]

What really surprised me is that Cersei set Tommen up for that entire encounter.  When he goes in, all bluster and posturing, telling his mother that Loras has to be set free, she says that he's right, but she's not holding him.   Go and speak to the High Sparrow. 

 

She sent Tommen to speak to the High Sparrow, knowing he wouldn't be able to.  She sent him into that situation.  What if Tommen had lost his head and called for violence?  I mean, forget the hissing crowd, he was the only person not holding a sword on those steps.

Wellll...if Tommen were killed or imprisoned for being the bastard of incest, who would technically be "in charge" in KL? If it would be Cersei, as the Queen Mother, then I would put nothing past her at this point, though she does go on and on about her "dear boy" so, it's all a bit confuddled.

[WhiteStumbler]

gingerella: Opening up a can of worms there, aren't you ;-)

 

Look up "Primogeniture" on wikipedia and prepare to be confused.

 

I don't recall if anyone has stated what exactly the line of succession is since Renly laid it out back in S1 when he stated "I'm fourth in line" (behind Joffrey, Tommen, and Stannis). Stannis is still alive, so I will guess Stannis?!? Hahahahaha!

Cersei undermining her son to deliver the Iron Throne to Stannis seems insane.

[janjan]

    "I'm the son of a sea cook!"

Is there an A&OL / Theon parallel?

There's also a Tommen parallel, as he almost charges up San Juan Stairs to see the High Sparrow, though he thinks better of it.

[gingerella]

Hahahahaha!  Cersei undermining her son to deliver the Iron Throne to Stannis seems insane.

Hahahahaha, was that an intentional oxy moron?!

 

[tjmookie]

Specifically though here's why it bugs me: It's such a Hallmark channel sort of twist.  Oh he's the secret love child of star-crossed lovers!  True soul-mates!

 

It truly seems as if a lot of people want to believe this, and rock on with that, but think about how much this story has punished Sansa for wanting to believe in fairy tales and that story element makes me simultaneously roll my eyes, and flinch because this story kicks the shit out of a tendency to believe in fairy tale and fantasy tropes. 

 

I don't think it's a fairy tale at all.  A fairy tale is "happily ever after."   Rhaegar and Lyanna tore up the kingdom and humiliated and ruined some prominent families and sparked a brutal war that left thousands dead including themselves and, if Jon is their son, put an innocent child in mortal danger.  Ned and a lot of others had to clean up their horrible mess, part of which put a strain on Ned's marriage and forced him to lie to his best friend.  I don't see a whole lot of happily ever after about that.  If anything it shows that these kinds of things rarely do have neat, happy endings and there are serious consequences to acting like an impulsive teen with raging hormones, especially if you're a person with a lot of power over others.

[DirewolfPup]

I'm loving this discussion. I love this place so much!

 

I think it's safe to say Barristan Selmy is dead. What odds should we give to Grey Worm, 50/50. He was slashed in the legs, which just sounds completely awful. I don't recall him getting stabbed the way Barristan did.

 

The Dorne plot could be interesting. I'm remembering Arya going on about women warriors of the days of yore that rode on the backs of dragons. While that IS super cool and all, she didn't consider Dorne as inspiration. Even bastard daughters got to learn how to fight like bad asses. That's pretty cool.

Eliria's daughter annoyed me a bit. It may just be my instant vomit reaction to teenagers using "momma" or "mommy" as a greeting.

 

I can't remember if it was this episode or last, but Brienne's chat with pod about why she followed Renly was a really nice story. Gave me the warm fuzzies.

[stillshimpy]

Grey Worm was stabbed in the side, then he pulled out the dagger and started killing the Harpys with it...as one does. At least he was given a closer to appropriate weapon before being brutally slashed.

Credit where credit is due: Those stuntmen playing the Harpys had seriously badass posture. It actually made them look really frightening and almost distracted from the nagging thought that they couldn't possibly be able to see a frelling thing in those masks.

Murder by braille, I assume.

I also assume Selmy met the Seven, joined the Choir Invisible or was pining for the fjords there at the end. Nothing says"you're going to gork out" on this show more than. "aw, you just had a touching moment of emotional character development...sorry about your eternal rest".

Edited May 7, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

I can't remember if it was this episode or last, but Brienne's chat with pod about why she followed Renly was a really nice story. Gave me the warm fuzzies.

 

I liked it as well. And I liked her father too, he seems nice. I specially liked that she really wasn't as naive as I thought, at least she knew he was gay. It was an odd sense of loyalty and admiration she had. She realized he was a kind soul. Which makes me really sad that he was killed, I still think he would have been the best king. He was fair, charismatic, smart, funny and possessed empathy a very rare quality in Westeros, but one essential to rule, in my opinion. But then again, I liked him, SO OF COURSE HE DIED!!!!

[90PercentGravity]

He was fair, charismatic, smart, funny and possessed empathy a very rare quality in Westeros, but one essential to rule, in my opinion. But then again, I liked him, SO OF COURSE HE DIED!!!!

 

Also, he definitely had the most stylish crown.

[DirewolfPup]

I miss Renly and Robb Stark the most.

[WhiteStumbler]

Moving Characters I Miss to the Completely Unspoiled Speculation thread...

[stillshimpy]

ETA: And I was interested to hear that the doll that infected Shireen with greyscale came from Dorne. I can understand the bad blood between the Lannisters and the Martells, but why would the Martells try to kill / maim a Baratheon princess?

 

Didn't he say that the trader was from Dorne?  That's not necessarily the same thing as the attempt on Shireen's life coming from Dorne.  Like that wine merchant wasn't from the Seven Kingdoms, right?   So maybe he was just a murder for hire sort?  

 

Or it's also possible that Stannis killed the bejeebers out of someone ranking member of Dorne's family or something during the Rebellion.  I mean, they actually were on opposite sides.  Tywin Lannister switched sides and Jaime killed the Mad King, but up until then wouldn't Dorne have been a Targaryen ally?  

 

Actually, come to think of it, no...because Rhaegar left his Dornish wife and that's what started the rebellion.  

 

Maybe Dorne just hates the stinking lot of them?  "Embrace paramours and bastards already, and quit with the killing over romantic slights and wandering eyes.  Take that, you honor bound sexually repressed freaks!  In the name of ________ we strike!"  

 

Maybe Dorne is like the Anti-Switzerland.  Neutral in that they hate everyone not from Dorne at the same level?  

[janjan]

Shimpy: I also assume Selmy met the Seven, joined the Choir Invisible or was pining for the fjords there at the end. Nothing says"you're going to gork out" on this show more than. "aw, you just had a touching moment of emotional character development...sorry about your eternal rest".

He was just resting.

 

Speaking of touching moments -> immediate demise: What are Shireen's chances now that her daddy hugged her?

[WhiteStumbler]

janjan: STOP! *WhiteStumbler plugs ears, whimpers*

[stillshimpy]

Oh don't worry, Janjan, the last time someone was openly affectionate towards a child it was Olly's parents.  

 

Admittedly, they got eaten, but Olly is okay! 

[Pallas]

Oh don't worry, Janjan, the last time someone was openly affectionate towards a child it was Olly's parents. 

Admittedly, they got eaten, but Olly is okay!

 

Hee.  Olly is okay for now, but he may be on his way to turning against his older-brother-figure Jon for being soft on the Free People.    

 

Wellll...if Tommen were killed or imprisoned for being the bastard of incest, who would technically be "in charge" in KL? If it would be Cersei, as the Queen Mother,

 

Technically, as either Queen Consort or Queen Mother, Cersei never had a place in the line of succession.  And as someone popularly and accurately held to have committed adultery, incest and treason, her legal justification for ruling in her own right would be even more...whimsical. Though she may be in a position to try staging a coup.  (In fact, by advancing the claims of two sons she knows to be no kin of Robert, she already has.)  

 

But I think Cersei's aim is still to champion Tommen and act as his Regent/de facto Hand.  When she re-routed Tommen to the High Sparrow, she may not have anticipated the incipient violence, since forethought and gauging the temper of the people are not her long suits.  She believes she has a workable deal with the High Sparrow: she protects and elevates him; he protects her and oversees the dirty work she points him toward.  But in calling up her own holy army, she may have created yet another claimant to absolute power.

 

Greyscale Barbie joins the ranks of Assassination Props Preposterous.  Within that Acme Company arsenal, though, its success ranks second only to the Poison Pendant.  Weapons -- actual weapons -- marked with the victim's own sigil deserve a category all their own.

[gingerella]

So Pallas, are you saying that Mel is planning on using Greyscale Barbie as in infectant to others she wants to take out? I mean, it seems that she is no longer contagious but...just wondering if that is what you were getting at...?

[Pallas]

Nope, my mention of Greyscale Barbie just harkened back to an earlier discussion upthread.  I think Mel is, to give her her due, pretty straightforward in her tactics.  Her strategy is still ambiguous, but her tactics can be seen a mile away. 

[WhiteStumbler]

So Greyscale Barbie was an attack, but where was it launched from? Dorne, yes, but was it authorized by the ruling House in Dorne (Tyrell), or did the attack come from further away and sort of pass thru on the way to Shireen?

If Viserys and Dany had been surrounded by a Targaryen court / power base in Pentos (instead of just couch-surfing with Illyrio), then I might have suspected one of them striking at the family of the Ursurper.

What other odd assassination weapons besides Greyscale Barbie (ETA and NECKLACE) have we seen? Knifey, smokey, zomboni, warg-eagle, dragon fire (it was going to happen), moon-door (ditto), creepy green scorpion bug in a toy, what else?

Edited May 8, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

What other odd assassination weapons besides Greyscale Barbie (ETA and NECKLACE) have we seen? Knifey, smokey, zomboni, warg-eagle, dragon fire (it was going to happen), moon-door (ditto), creepy green scorpion bug in a toy, what else?

 

The Presumably Psychic Wine Merchant, with Magical Dany Lure accessories is another.  

[Pallas]

The Presumably Psychic Wine Merchant, with Magical Dany Lure accessories is another.

 

"Wine-for-the-Khaleesi?" is maybe less a weapon and more a hit-or-miss delivery system, shimpy?  Of course the most grotesque and effective delivery system is the one you brilliantly named, "stabbed-in-the-baby."   It seems that when it comes to killing Starks, the saga doesn't like to mess around.  Even Knifey and its wielder were up to the task; they were just barely outmatched by the conjoining of direwolf devotion and mother love.  

 

So Greyscale Barbie was an attack, but where was it launched from? Dorne, yes, but was it authorized by the ruling House in Dorne (Tyrell), or did the attack come from further away and sort of pass thru on the way to Shireen?

 

Further, or even closer?  I'm going to take Obeyrn at his word: "In Dorne, we don't hurt little girls." Attacking Stannis's heir Shireen suggests the attacker may have known that Shireen and not Joffrey or Tommen represented the true line.  But I agree that Cersei is squeamish about targeting children, though not enough to try to overrule Joffrey when he had his hate on (Micah and Robert's sons).  And targeting Shireen also suggests that the attacker may have known that Stannis would have no living sons.  

 

I swear we were told that Mel ingratiated herself to Stannis and wife by curing Shireen. (His monologue to Shireen in this episode, however, didn't mention that.)  But if that's true, is it possible that Melisandre was the culprit?  Introducing the disease that she then miraculously cured?

 

If Davos, say, were to somehow discover this is true? Most fittingly, through something that he read?  I know, shades of Pycelle's Ponderous Tome (an honorary weird and unwieldy weapon).  But nicely ironic -- and satisfyingly so.  Stannis would come to a boil. 

[WhiteStumbler]

And I thought of another one - Murder by Funhouse Mirror, when 11 Pyatt Pree reflections killed 11 of The Thirteen in Qarth.

[stillshimpy]

Even Knifey and its wielder were up to the task; they were just barely outmatched by the conjoining of direwolf devotion and mother love.

 

Au contraire mon ami, the entire reason the assassin just flat out failed was he stopped to inform Catelyn:  "You're not supposed to be here."  to which Catelyn (mentally replied) "Neither are you!  By a lot!  I grab you by the Knifey and fight with every last breath in my body and digit I possess"   That's why I always call him the Chatty Assassin.  Make observations later, get busy with the killing straight away.  It makes for a better business model when you make murder your vocation. 

 

He seriously had the jump on Catelyn, by a lot.  But he had to stop to inform that she was cross-walking, loitering.  Incurring a penalty for excessive presence.   

 

Dude blew it.  The Incompetent and Chatty Assassin apparently felt it was important to give all concerned a sporting chance.  

 

Although I must sadly own that he showed more Weapons Awareness than our poor (skewered) Unsullied, who couldn't figure out that you shouldn't go rushing into a high walled cubicle with only a spear, impossible to wield in close quarters.  

 

Randomly:  What is the deal with that hateful prostitute?  How can anyone just actually be all, "you know what I miss?  Human trafficking and slavery.  Business is down, except for those Unsullied, who just want a good snuggling, which is far less likely to give me whatever passes for Grey Scale of the Lady Parts than most of my customers.  Nonetheless, I miss the days of a complete loss of agency or power within my life.  Bring back the Masters, 'cause that system sure was good to me."  

 

Also;  Sure, I hate him, but without a doubt, the guy you want planning your assassinations is Walder Frey and his delightful Band Master, Roose Bolton.   

 

Sure, they suck.  Absolutely they both possess curdled souls and a wintry wind blows through the chambers of the desolate things that pass for their hearts, but it must be handed to them:  When they want some people killed?  Those people end up most sincerely, absolutely and irrevocably dead.  

 

Be it Stabbed-in-the-Baby (Talisa), Perforated-in-all-vital-organs (Robb) , or Cut-to-the-bone in a truly on-the-nose (neck) fashion (Catelyn), they even thought to lock the doors.  If urologists had been invented in the Kingdoms, they might have even thought "Hey, you know what an aging archer with a penchant for drinking is going to need multiple times throughout the night?  Access to a latrine to unleash his (somewhat uncertain) stream very, very regularly." and had the foresight to station someone at the Loo for a spot of "I kill you as you pee, as if killing you wasn't enough of an indignity"  duty. 

 

The suck, but those dudes get stuff done.  

 

Oh and Sansa is supposed to try and avenge her family against the Wintry Band Leader, Dead of Heart, Sour of Soul.  

 

So that ought to work out fucking splendidly for her, I'm sure.  

 

Thanks, Littlefinger, you son of a sevens kingdom whore.  

Edited May 9, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

Poor Sansa, poor, poor Sansa :(

[Pallas]

Au contraire mon ami, the entire reason the assassin just flat out failed was he stopped to inform Catelyn:  "You're not supposed to be here."  to which Catelyn (mentally replied) "Neither are you!  By a lot!  I grab you by the Knifey and fight with every last breath in my body and digit I possess"

 

So very true.  You're right, shimpy, Knifey's hapless comrade-in-arms was the very first of the Wily Coyote Squad assassins (Chatty Division).  While Catelyn's desperate gambit -- "I grab you by the Knifey!" -- was a far fiercer and more painful forerunner of Jaime's Golden Hand maneuver, the one he styled this very episode.    

 

"Bring back the Masters, 'cause that system sure was good to me."

 

If the prostitute is really a prostitute, by now the former system may seem better to her than what Dany's selling.  Business probably is down, as you say.  She made her living as part of the service class to the former masters.  They are the devils she knows and the devils who paid her and likely still pay her (does Dany?); they are also her people, not a foreign occupier.  And they will be here, probably back in power, when the silver-haired Westerosi bitch and her army of eunuchs departs.  

 

She's only one person, of course, and isn't acting for all Mereeni prostitutes.  But an occupying force can unite a populace against it, across class, cultural, and historical divides.  If that's what this saga is selling, I'll bite.

 

Two dispirited thumbs up on the effectiveness of the Frey-Bolton Axis of Evil as folks who get the job done.  They not only had the right people manning the doors; they put some real thought into the playlist for the wedding band. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Rewatched and have another Sons of the Harpy theory- I was irritated by the apparent ease with which the SotH put a major hurting on the Unsullied, and 1) Half of my irritation is that the Unsullied were explicitly trained in the use of weapons more suited to an urban environment (short sword), and 2) The other half was that it should take 10 SotH to take down an Unsullied, since the SotH were the former slaveholders.

BUT! What if the SotH were mostly comprised of the out-of-work pit fighters they keep talking about?!? The SotH move with speed and confidence, have fast reflexes, don't flinch at bloodshed, know how to handle weapons, and don't back down or run when things get dicey. Like pit fighters!

Sorry if someone else lobbed this spitball, and I am just a coattail rider.

Still irritated at point #1, but I will try to let it go.

[Pallas]

Good one, Stumbler: wasn't it mentioned that the first Son apprehended was indeed a former slave?  That in this instance at least, the masters were buying the poor "to do their fighting for them?"

 

Your pit-fighter Sons would follow-up on the idea that the prostitute helper/leader had fallen on hard times as a result of Dany's reforms.  I like how this would show A Show's giving a nod to the complicated fall-out from the social upheaval Dany brought about.  Something that, in fact, would have affected all classes, not only the oligarchs.

[WhiteStumbler]

That's right -- the one that Dany executed was poor but not a former slave nor a former slaveholder.

I'm partially recalling this spitball then. If the SotH are all supposed to be ex pit fighters, then that (explaining this dudes backstory) would have been the time to do so. There may be ex pit fighters swelling the ranks of the SotH, and it might have been those guys who attacked Grey Worm and killed Selmy, but they aren't all ex pit fighters.

[gingerella]

So, like, does that mean that the old family slave holders/owners are NOT the SOTHs? I'm confused, I thought that referred to the ruling slave owner class, but then again, the heads of the old families that were taken to the dragonettes nursery didn't seem like fighters at all and definitely seemed like men who would pay someone else to fight their battles.

[Pallas]

Dany and her advisors assume that the Sons act on behalf of the old ruling class, the slave-owners most adversely affected by her reforms.  Somewhat akin to the Ku Klux Klan during Reconstruction, with a nice provocative allusion to another group of civilian insurgents -- the Sons of Liberty -- thrown in.  As Stumbler noted, it seems that the actual combatants may be made up of a mixed bag of upper-class vigilantes, and local mercenaries or pit-fighters in the hire of the elite.  And perhaps other locals with their own reasons to protest the occupation.