The History, Geography And Culture Of Westeros And Beyond

[AzureOwl]

In the interest of helping keep the episodes’ threads from getting too off topic I’m creating this thread to deal with questions regarding the historical events in the backstory of the series as well as discussions about the geography of the setting and the different cultures portrayed in it.

If you want to know who the Blackfyre Pretenders were, have questions about Robert's Rebellion or what is the Doom of Valyria, this is the place.

If you want to discuss the differences between the culture of the Seven Kingdoms and that of the Dothraki this is the place.

If you want to know how long is the Wall or the names of the Nine Free Cities this is the place.

Of course, since most of the answers to those questions will come from the novels, be advised that there might be spoilers.

Edited March 29, 2014 by AzureOwl

[AzureOwl]

I just wanted to give you all the heads up that GRRM is going to post an excerpt from THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE on his website.
 

Aegon Is Coming...

... tomorrow morning.

We're putting up a sample from THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE on my website, to join the samples from the next Wild Cards book (LOWBALL) and of course from WINDS OF WINTER (Mercy).  It's a short excerpt from the section of Aegon's Conquest, complete with some kickass art.

And by the way, those of you who read only this Live Journal  -- and there are a lot of you -- should check out my actual website some time.  There's loads of interesting material there, from news stories to biography and bibliography and sections on my toy knights.

Anyway, do hope you all enjoy the Aegon piece.  It will be up on the morrow.

We already know the general outline of the War of the Conquest from a reading he did a while back, but I'm interested in what details we might learn from this. 

[AzureOwl]

Besides some interesting genealogical information, we got some interesting details from the sample:

• Aenar Targaryen moved the family from Valyria to Dragonstone in 114 BC (Before Conquest)
• The Doom of Valyria took place in 102 BC
• Aegon the Conqueror began his invasion in 2 BC
• The Velaryons and the Celtigars are of Valyrian origin, but the Bar Emmons are not.
• The family name of the line of the Storm Kings was Durrandon

Plus an awesome picture of Aegon riding Balerion the Black Dread!

Edited April 17, 2014 by AzureOwl

[ellystar]

I know they say the dragons grow to be enormous, but this really helps to put it in perspective.

[Which Tyler]

Wow, that's huge.

As we're doing geography, I've always liked these 2 images

http://www.cclapcenter.com/archives/westeros.jpg

http://gamesofthrones.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/ireland_westeros1.jpg

[Lady S.]

What interested me most was this:

But Argilac had grown older; his famous mane of black hair had gone grey, and his prowess at arms had faded.

 

which adds evidence to my suspicion that the Baratheon strong hair gene came from the line of the Storm Kings, along with their banners and House words. So then, likely, only the name came from the Valyrian bastard, Orys Baratheon.

Also interesting that Argilac the Arrogant basically started the whole thing by trying to get Aegon to fight Harren the Black for him, then insulting his counteroffer. And that the Stormlands used to be a lot bigger, but some of the territory was lost to the Reach, and Aegon took some more for the Crownlands. The map of Westoros makes a lot more sense with that history.

[AzureOwl]

Here's a new extract from THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE, including a Stark Family Tree!! Find out the name of Ned's mother!

Edited May 12, 2014 by AzureOwl

[GreyBunny]

Westeros is supposed to be roughly the length of South America.  

 

There are also other continents that haven't been discovered yet, I hope by the end of the series a complete world map will be published.

 

Jeyne and Tyrion's names are spelled wrong in that extract, I hope that's not the final product.  

Edited May 12, 2014 by GreyBunny

[AzureOwl]

One details that surprised me from this extract is the fact that the Unmasking of Braavos predated the Doom of Valyria. I was under the impression that Braavos location remained secret until the Old Freehold was destroyed.

 

The dragonlords were more tolerant than I gave them credit for.

 

ETA: A Hungarian publisher's website has posted several more preview pages. The artwork is breathtaking.

Edited May 13, 2014 by AzureOwl

[Lady S.]

Here's a new extract from THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE, including a Stark Family Tree!! Find out the name of Ned's mother!

Ha, unless that's another mistake, looks the Starkcest wasn't just cousins but uncle and niece. The Winterfell illustration on the cover page looks cooler than on the show.

 

ETA: A Hungarian publisher's website has posted several more preview pages. The artwork is breathtaking.

I found this interesting

In many cases, the Andals took the wives and daughters of the defeated kings to wife, as a means of solidifying their right to rule. For, despite everything, the First Men were far more numerous than the Andals and could not simply be forced aside. The fact that many southron castles still have godswoods with carved weirwoods at their hearts is said to be thanks to the early Andal kings, who shifted from conquest to consolidation, thus avoiding any conflict based on differing faiths.

so as I suspected, the First Men didn't actually die out down south, the northerners just have a lot more First Men blood.

[AzureOwl]

Here's yet another excerpt of THE WORLD OF ICE AND FIRE, this time dealing with the history of the Rhoynar and their wars with the Valyrians. There's some exceedingly interesting stuff in there:

 

• The Rhoynar had water wizards, which judging from the description of their feats were practically waterbenders.
• It explains why the Free Cities are called Free Cities
• It explains why the Free Cities had no unified government in place when the Doom took Valyria out of the equation
• It makes the Volantines even bigger dicks for trying to conquer all the other Valyrian colonies. They weren't trying to fill in for a missing imperial government, they were trying to create one!
• It explains how the Kingdom of Sarnor was able to maintain its entire political organization intact until after the Doom.
• It explains why the dragonlords were so understanding about Braavos' existence and the Unmasking of Uthero.

Edited May 14, 2014 by AzureOwl

[Lady S.]

GRRM did a reading on the History of the Westerlands.
 
My favorite part:

Archmaester Perestan (not actually sure if Perestan was an archmaester at the time, he certainly is now) claims that Lann was a man-at-arms at Casterly Rock who impregnated the daughter of Lord Casterly.  That Lord Casterly died and the Lordship passed to Lann’s son with her.

If this is true, the Lannister cleverness has been exaggerated for thousands of years. Typical.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Lady S.

[AzureOwl]

GRRM did a reading on the History of the Westerlands.

 

My favorite part:

Archmaester Perestan (not actually sure if Perestan was an archmaester at the time, he certainly is now) claims that Lann was a man-at-arms at Casterly Rock who impregnated the daughter of Lord Casterly.  That Lord Casterly died and the Lordship passed to Lann’s son with her.

If this is true, the Lannister cleverness has been exaggerated for thousands of years. Typical.

 

A better example of Lannister exaggeration is the Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion. For years we've been thinking that Tywin was this precocious teen general like Robb. But in reality

he just payed someone off to open a gate in Tarbeck Hall and he defeated the  Reynes through superior numbers, not tactics.

 

I also must admit that it never crossed my mind that

Rohanne Webber

of all people would be Tywin's grandmother.

Edited June 3, 2014 by AzureOwl

[Lady S.]

Huh, I thought learning about

the flooding of Castamere

made it sound more impressive. And it was interesting that

Tytos's weakness and Lady Tarbeck/the Red Lion's boldness

were not overblown by Tywin as I'd assumed. But knowing that

a historical King Tyrion was a monster famous for making women bleed highlights Tywin's cruelty in giving the name to the son he blamed for Joanna's death. I bet he was still hoping, like Cersei, that baby Tyrion would die soon at the time of his naming. It also makes Cersei's comment that Tyrion tarnished the name even worse if she knew why he was named that.

[AzureOwl]

Huh, I thought learning about

the flooding of Castamere

made it sound more impressive. And it was interesting that

Tytos's weakness and Lady Tarbeck/the Red Lion's boldness

were not overblown by Tywin as I'd assumed. But knowing that

a historical King Tyrion was a monster famous for making women bleed highlights Tywin's cruelty in giving the name to the son he blamed for Joanna's death. I bet he was still hoping, like Cersei, that baby Tyrion would die soon at the time of his naming. It also makes Cersei's comment that Tyrion tarnished the name even worse if she knew why he was named that.

 

The

the flooding of Castamere

was rather clever, if cruel. But finding a clever way to

end a siege

is different from tactical brilliance in the field. For years much has been made of the fact that Tywin as little more than a boy beat the Red Lion of Castamere, who was an experienced soldier. But now we know that

the Red Lion was a dumbass. Tywin didn't defeat him because of particularly good generalship, he just had a bigger army.

Edited June 5, 2014 by AzureOwl

[Lady S.]

Well, yeah, but weren't all of the Young Wolf's opponents on the field dumbasses too? Jaime was the only one to be taken seriously and he was done in by his own rashness, his dumbass side. Robb's battle plans were always clever though, (but the victory at Oxcross belongs to Grey Wind finding a goat path to bypass the Golden Tooth, a lucky break), and his floppy fish uncle did manage to defeat Tywin, (but Tywin probably would have come back to finish that fight were it not for the Tyrells' warning about Blackwater). Overall I'd agree that Robb was a military prodigy, and Tywin wasn't so much a military mastermind as a mastermind of massacres.