Gender and Sexuality and Tropes

[SueMarySue]

I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but even when wasted I couldn't had sex with guy [while not considering myself gay]. And if I'm not weird, probably this is why Amy sleeping with Liam sounds pretty unrealistic for some of us.

 

[wayne67]

I don't know, maybe I'm weird, but even when wasted I couldn't had sex with guy [while not considering myself gay]. And if I'm not weird, probably this is why Amy sleeping with Liam sounds pretty unrealistic for some of us.

 

Back when I was 19 in gay bars while trashed I'd make out with lots of people including girls because it was fun to try out new experiences and I had lived a fairly sheltered life prior so I overcompensated when I was let off the proverbial leash. Didn't mean I labelled myself bi because I didn't throw up afterwards.

 

Some people do things that other people wouldn't. It's what make the world interesting. Humans are individuals and behave in unique ways to different stimuli.

 

It's a pet peeve of mine when gay acquaintances go on about straight guys having gay sex and being closet cases. I've always considered it less about who you shag and more who you date.

 

Alcohol does contribute to many interesting behavior patterns, reduced inhibitions, beer goggles and poor judgement. Coyote Ugly is a thing for straight people too.

 

YMMV

 

I did feel sad that the school tribe system didn't get dragged out a little longer the Cloud Landers were going off the rails. Though it was funnier on Community.

Edited November 21, 2014 by wayne67

[SueMarySue]

I didn't generalized, It was a guess why some people can find the situation not so likely to happend. But world is all about probability and not certainty, and yes - every single person and situation is different, so who knows...
 

[gesundheit]

I'm as gay as the day is long and back in my younger, confused years, I only had sex with dudes when very, very drunk. It's pretty common. And really, when someone is that drunk, I think there's a weird misnomer about how it just breaks down inhibitions and your actions actually reflect some sort of latent want. That's just not true. I don't think Amy had some latent desire for Liam. Maybe very-drunken actions are based on some other latent feelings, like self-loathing or general confusion or loneliness or desperation for intimacy or internalized homophobia or who knows what else... but this idea that the very act is something you wanted deep down all along? No. Only someone who (wisely) has never gotten completely wasted would think that.

 

What I'm trying to say, basically, is that Amy sleeping with Liam was "out of character" because she was behaving out of character. It happens. We all do things that are out of character sometimes. 

 

One thing I actually really liked about the whole reveal is that Karma was initially bummed but understood it wasn't an outright betrayal before she found out it was Amy. They were broken up and he wasn't cheating on her. Acknowledging details like that is oddly rare on television.

[Misty79]

Amy was supposed to be a virgin before she had sex with Liam. To me that suggests she wasn't likely to be the sort to randomly hook up like that, drunk or not. That combined with the fact she was supposed to be in love with her best friend is why I found it so out of character. (Though I do acknowledge gesundheit's point that the phrase "out of character" exists for good reason.) 

 

I don't buy that acting out at her mother's bridal shower necessarily means she would do something as drastic as have sex with Liam, and then - in this season - work so hard at covering it up. I mean, I'm pretty impulsive as a person too, but those sorts of things exist on a continuum of extremity. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Misty79

[mjgchick]

But we also have to remember that this is suppose to be a comedy. Amy's an over the top character. At this point she'd be over the top at the fact she forgot her Netflix password and I wouldn't be surprise. Lol

[JaM]

Amy was supposed to be a virgin before she had sex with Liam. To me that suggests she wasn't likely to be the sort to randomly hook up like that, drunk or not. That combined with the fact she was supposed to be in love with her best friend is why I found it so out of character. (Though I do acknowledge gesundheit's point that the phrase "out of character" exists for good reason.) 

 

I don't buy that acting out at her mother's bridal shower necessarily means she would do something as drastic as have sex with Liam, and then - in this season - work so hard at covering it up. I mean, I'm pretty impulsive as a person too, but those sorts of things exist on a continuum of extremity. 

 

 

Really? So you want to tell us, as a teenager, you never did something you could regret and then tried to cover it up so others would not find out? I'm pretty sure majority of teenagers did something that could classify here.. (i did a lot of things i regret at a teenager, but now.. its just memories) After all, it is not show about 24+ years old lesbians, but about 15-16 years old teenage girls (played by 24+ old actresses)

[Misty79]

But we also have to remember that this is suppose to be a comedy. Amy's an over the top character. At this point she'd be over the top at the fact she forgot her Netflix password and I wouldn't be surprise. Lol

 

Yep it's true. They've gone hard with zany Amy this season. I think I liked her character a bit more in S1, where she seemed like a sensible foil to Karma's scheming a lot of the time, although prone to some OTT behavior around her mom, which was forgivable given that she didn't take the 'likes girls' thing very well. 

Really? So you want to tell us, as a teenager, you never did something you could regret and then tried to cover it up so others would not find out? I'm pretty sure majority of teenagers did something that could classify here.. (i did a lot of things i regret at a teenager, but now.. its just memories) After all, it is not show about 24+ years old lesbians, but about 15-16 years old teenage girls (played by 24+ old actresses)

 

Nope, nothing that big. I recall blowing up the vacuum cleaner when I vacuumed a wet rug, and then lying about it afterwards, does that count?

 

Throwing away my V card (MTV language there for you) on my best friend's Edward Cullen. No way in hell! 

[JaM]

Good for you then. I was a bit crazier as a teenager then probably :) yet i had friends who were much crazier.. I was actually in Karma shoes as a teenager, but that was it for me, we were never friends afterwards, at the other side i never really had a BFF, just normal friends.

Edited November 21, 2014 by JaM

[dohe]

Amy was supposed to be a virgin before she had sex with Liam. To me that suggests she wasn't likely to be the sort to randomly hook up like that, drunk or not. That combined with the fact she was supposed to be in love with her best friend is why I found it so out of character. (Though I do acknowledge gesundheit's point that the phrase "out of character" exists for good reason.) 

 

I don't buy that acting out at her mother's bridal shower necessarily means she would do something as drastic as have sex with Liam, and then - in this season - work so hard at covering it up. I mean, I'm pretty impulsive as a person too, but those sorts of things exist on a continuum of extremity. 

Well said again.  Frankly why can't the writers apologize for their incredibly stupid, "out of character" plotline.  Instead it is this stubbon, imbecilic rationalization.

 

What is worse is every time the trope plays itself out, it is followed by people saying well it happens here or there in real life.  No kidding.  The thing is it does not play out that way almost every time in real life and mainly to just one group.  It reminds me of when people would defend gay men being bad guys over and over in 70's films.  When complaining about that trope, the response would well John Wayne Gacy was gay.  It completely misses what the argument is about.  The argument is not about whether something happens in real life.  The argument is why is a specific group singled out for a storyline over and over to the point that it is presented as the norm that is expected of that group. 

[ybrik]

First let me say that I really like that we can have this serious type of conversation about the show without some of the more over the top reactions that I have seen elsewhere. I enjoy that everyone is able to express there thoughts and have a rational discussion without some of the vitriol that I have seen other places when discussing this show.

 

I will be honest as I can understand why this was a problem for people, I was willing to give the show the benefit of the doubt and see where it went. I understand that this was a TV trope that has probably been overused but I always felt that should never be a reason why a writer should base the story on. I felt with the way it was set up and with Amy being so drunk something so out of character was possible. It was an extreme reaction that took everything  that happened leading up to it for it to happen. So I could see how it happened storyline wise and have been willing to see where the show would go before being critical of the decision.

 

However, after this episode, unless there is some major progression in the next episode, the ending of season 1 is looking worse, at least to me. We could end the season with Amy and Karma in even worse condition than they were at the end of season 1. Really this episode needed to happen 2-3 episodes earlier and more time needed to be given to the fallout for Karma and Amy.

 

Also wanting to point out in the episode, loved when Lauren reminded Liz that she may have the power today, everything goes back to normal the next day. Loved Liz's reaction to that.

[wayne67]

Well said again.  Frankly why can't the writers apologize for their incredibly stupid, "out of character" plotline.  Instead it is this stubbon, imbecilic rationalization.

 

What is worse is every time the trope plays itself out, it is followed by people saying well it happens here or there in real life.  No kidding.  The thing is it does not play out that way almost every time in real life and mainly to just one group.  It reminds me of when people would defend gay men being bad guys over and over in 70's films.  When complaining about that trope, the response would well John Wayne Gacy was gay.  It completely misses what the argument is about.  The argument is not about whether something happens in real life.  The argument is why is a specific group singled out for a storyline over and over to the point that it is presented as the norm that is expected of that group. 

 

I don't see why the writers should apologize for a plot line or for using tropes. Hell this entire show is a mish mash of tropes they're playing straight and others they're subverting.

 

Most of these characters are playing out high school movie/tv show cliches. You've got Karma the unpopular girl who hooks up with the Popular Jock in secret (similar to Jenna in Awkward and her on again/off again relationship with Matty Kibbin). You've got Lauren who came across in the pilot as another throwaway blond homophobic Alpha Bitch (Somewhat like Brooke McQueen in Popular) and gets depth as we explore her insecurities and get to know her better. We've got the Gay comic relief whose a campy bitchy queen who likes to stir the pot to create drama and jumps from boy to boy (a lot of sitcoms recently thinking Jack from Will and Grace, a less campy version Max from Happy Endings). He's probably the closest this show sticks to a tv stereotype.

 

We've got an epic love triangle rhombus mess with Amy, Karma and Liam and now Regan involved. Typically it's two girls fighting over one guy or 2 guys trying to impress one girl into picking them. In this show. Amy loves Karma, Karma wants Liam as a trophy, Liam wanted to bang a lesbian and ended up with a lying social climber proceeding to incidentaly having sex with Amy while drunk and neither of them enjoyed it to want a repeat or even to want to spend any time together. Regan is now in the center of this weird triangle of interpersonal relationships as Amy's first real girlfriend.

 

The closest tv has come to something this unique is South of Nowhere and those girls just used the boy to make each other jealous which lead to the guy saying leave me out of this... Which they didn't.

 

Amy would be typical in the lesbian sleeps with a man tv trope, if she A) liked it but chose to be a lesbian anyway B) did it to experiment C) did it to make someone else jealous. Except the writers chose D) Amy slept with Liam because she was angry and hurt and wanted to lash out in the most self destructive way possible and has spent most of the season trying to stop Liam from blabbing because she didn't want anyone to know.

 

Considering this is a dramedy she failed miserably and her life continues to be a mess. I'm wondering what Regan's reaction will be when she finds out.

 

If Amy didn't sleep with Liam,the core conflict of this season would have been what ? The main characters need to have conflict otherwise nothing happens. At least these secrets were worth lying about. Most dramedies have people hiding the most pointless of things and people overreacting to it. Amy sleeping with her best friend's off again secret boyfriend after being rejected by her best friend after confessing her secret sapphic longing was dramatic even if it felt like it came from nowhere for a lot of people.

 

YMMV of course.

[dohe]

Wayne67, you are talking about the rationalization being different this time around.  The trope is still the same.  It is still the lesbian makes out with or sleeps with a guy trope.  Also plenty of lesbians make out with a man/sleep with a man storylines end with the lesbian regretting her decision.

 

Also a lesbian does not need to make out with or sleep with a man to provide conflict.  It demonstrates a limited vision of lesbians by these show runners.

Edited November 23, 2014 by dohe

[wayne67]

Do you think Corvington should also apologise for Shane making out with Karma to find out what her appeal was ? since the only difference is gender?

 

Amy needed to do something to undermine her friendship with Karma the main relationship of the show. Betrayals tend to be fairly common ways of doing so.

 

As you've provided no other options as to how conflict should have been generated and have provided no rationalisation for why this trope is ridiculous. I'm going to cease arguing about it since I have the feeling we won't be able to debate the merits of this trope.

 

Though one last thing for the record. The character Amy has never said that she's a lesbian. She had an emotional infatuation with Karma that was never fully explored and a whole bunch of superficial interest in guys that was similarly not explored. As far as I can recall she kissed one other girl while in the throes of her obsession that didn't have the desired effect and called herself a Karmasexual. She's now dating Regan and seems comitted to that for the moment until the typical revelation destroys or disturbs that relationship.

 

Therefore until Amy states she's a lesbian and only a lesbian than it's not even technically following the trope you're complaining about.

 

As for this episode I really hope Karma holds onto her anger about Liam and Amy keeping secrets from her though Liam was technically single and he wasn't necessarily obligated to revealing anything anyway. Still a terrible choice. I hope Karma and Liam remain split apart for at least a few episodes so they can breathe as seperate characters. Their relationship was dull anyway. Worst of the 3 couples.

[dohe]

Do you think Corvington should also apologise for Shane making out with Karma to find out what her appeal was ? since the only difference is gender?

 

Amy needed to do something to undermine her friendship with Karma the main relationship of the show. Betrayals tend to be fairly common ways of doing so.

 

As you've provided no other options as to how conflict should have been generated and have provided no rationalisation for why this trope is ridiculous. I'm going to cease arguing about it since I have the feeling we won't be able to debate the merits of this trope.

 

Though one last thing for the record. The character Amy has never said that she's a lesbian. She had an emotional infatuation with Karma that was never fully explored and a whole bunch of superficial interest in guys that was similarly not explored. As far as I can recall she kissed one other girl while in the throes of her obsession that didn't have the desired effect and called herself a Karmasexual. She's now dating Regan and seems comitted to that for the moment until the typical revelation destroys or disturbs that relationship.

 

Therefore until Amy states she's a lesbian and only a lesbian than it's not even technically following the trope you're complaining about.

 

As for this episode I really hope Karma holds onto her anger about Liam and Amy keeping secrets from her though Liam was technically single and he wasn't necessarily obligated to revealing anything anyway. Still a terrible choice. I hope Karma and Liam remain split apart for at least a few episodes so they can breathe as seperate characters. Their relationship was dull anyway. Worst of the 3 couples.

 

1. A gay man making out with or having sex with a woman is not a television trope.  A trope, according to Meriam Webster is "a common or overused theme or device".  Gay men making out with or having sex with women is not a "common or overused theme or device".  Therefore that comparison is not effective. 

 

2. Yes betrayal is an effective plot device to provide conflict.  However that does not mean the trope that tops all LGBT tropes should be the default.  You are giving a rationalization for the usage of the trope which seems to believe that there can be no other storyline that would be effective in creating conflict.  It certainly seems odd that it is lesbians who need this event to occur to create conflict all the time.   Your belief there is no way a lesbian character could have conflict with someone else besides her having sex with a guy is bewildering.

 

3. The easiest way and most realistic way to provide conflict is showing the friendship being altered.  Instead of the contrived, ridiculous act of Amy having sex with Liam, a more thoughtful, honest and compelling storyline would have been seeing a growing distance from Amy towards Karma which she and Karma struggle with.  The show's choice to go a lazy, cliched route which basically rejects everything we are shown in the prior 9 episodes shows a lack of creativity or awareness.  The cliffhanger could have been that moment Karma rejects Amy.  Instead it went the trope route. 

 

4.  The usage of the trope is tiresome as it shows a belief that all experiences by lesbians have to be funneled through a sexual or romantic experience with a man.  It is ridiculous in that Amy never displays any sexual interest in men throughout the first season.  The notion that an out lesbian, accepted by her famiy and friends, would all of a sudden have revenge sex with a man because she is sad and angry is as asinine as thinking a straight man would have revenge sex with a man because he is sad and angry. 

 

5.  Rita Volk's own words regarding Amy.

 

I don’t know about Karma’s path, but for Amy, she is a lesbian, and Carter and I talked about that. We don’t want it to be a tease, we don’t want people to feel like they can relate to this vulnerable process that she’s going through, and they can relate to this girl because she’s a lesbian and then have that taken away, like, “Oh, never mind, you know, I’m into guys now.” It won’t be like that. I wanna put that out there, because I feel like I am so protective of Amy at this point, and I’m so protective of the fans that find a really, really great sense of comfort in this character, and I want them to know that this is pretty much who she is. And even though she’s questioning the whole process now — and she’s feeling ostracized and she’s feeling like everything is new and she doesn’t really quite know how to deal with it — she is, at the end of the day, a lesbian. She’s into girls. And that’s what she’s gonna discover.

 

http://community.ew.com/2014/06/09/faking-it-stars-talk-real-life-faking-it/

 

So clearly they mean for this character to be a lesbian.   She just happened to turn into a tv lesbian which, in real life, translates to bisexual.  But Rita labeled her a lesbian period.

 

I have heard countless rationalizations of the lesbians sleep with or make out with guys trope.  However lesbians really, really can be intriguing characters on TV without making out with men or having sex with men. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by dohe

[Mabinogia]

But sleeping with one guy, while still trying to work out her own sexuality, does not make make Amy a less intriguing character. Actually it makes her moreso, to me, because sexuality isn't always as simple as flipping a switch. From what they've shown, it seems this is new to Amy. She never thought she was a lesbian before, so maybe she's not sure. Just because the actress and show runners have decided does not mean the character has caught up to that yet. I think she's still exploring who she is and what it is she likes. Liam isn't the only instance of her questioning, there was that Brazilian guy that Amy seemed to think was hot. She is still learning who she is. That's not a trope (well, maybe technically it is, though not in the derogatory way critics like to use that word these days), it's life, it's learning that you are not exactly who you thought you were and what that means. The trope isn't that a lesbian slept with a guy but that a BFF slept with their friends boyfriend to hurt them. That is the derogatory trope. The fact that Amy is a lesbian is more of an afterthought and that is oddly refreshing.

 

But that said, I don't think that sleeping with Liam had much to do with Amy's sexuality anyway. Just because something can be labelled a trope doesn't make the story it is trying to tell invalid. It's not that Amy slept with a boy that I think makes this storyline crap. It's all the bad writing that came afterwards that makes the storyline intolerable for me. I wish they didn't think they had to go there to get the result they are getting, which is Karma being mad at Amy I guess, but it is what it is, so let's see where it goes. It's already a less tropey version of the lesbian sleeps with a guy trope so at least they've got that going for them.

[dohe]

But sleeping with one guy, while still trying to work out her own sexuality, does not make make Amy a less intriguing character. Actually it makes her moreso, to me, because sexuality isn't always as simple as flipping a switch. From what they've shown, it seems this is new to Amy. She never thought she was a lesbian before, so maybe she's not sure. Just because the actress and show runners have decided does not mean the character has caught up to that yet. I think she's still exploring who she is and what it is she likes. Liam isn't the only instance of her questioning, there was that Brazilian guy that Amy seemed to think was hot. She is still learning who she is. That's not a trope (well, maybe technically it is, though not in the derogatory way critics like to use that word these days), it's life, it's learning that you are not exactly who you thought you were and what that means. The trope isn't that a lesbian slept with a guy but that a BFF slept with their friends boyfriend to hurt them. That is the derogatory trope. The fact that Amy is a lesbian is more of an afterthought and that is oddly refreshing.

 

But that said, I don't think that sleeping with Liam had much to do with Amy's sexuality anyway. Just because something can be labelled a trope doesn't make the story it is trying to tell invalid. It's not that Amy slept with a boy that I think makes this storyline crap. It's all the bad writing that came afterwards that makes the storyline intolerable for me. I wish they didn't think they had to go there to get the result they are getting, which is Karma being mad at Amy I guess, but it is what it is, so let's see where it goes. It's already a less tropey version of the lesbian sleeps with a guy trope so at least they've got that going for them.

This feels redundant but here we go again.

 

A trope is a "common or overused theme or device".  The majority of lesbian representation on television ends up sleeping with or making out with a man.  Unlike straight men (with men), gay men (with women), or straight women (with women), lesbians are overwhelmingly shown over and over again making out with or sleeping with the men. 

 

This constant, unending rationalization that it happens in real life some has zilch to do with the discussion. It so thoroughly misses the point it is jawdropping.  Just because something happens occasionally in real life does not mean that it is not a trope when it shown as the norm in tv representation.  

 

A lesbian, out to her friends and family, making out with or having sex with a man is a trope.  In all of LGBT representation, it is easily the most overdone trope there is .  And the continued rationalization of it is as predictable as it is completely unaware of how big a stain it is on LGBT representation. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by dohe

[Mabinogia]

I think at this point well all know what a trope is, but thank you for explaining it yet again. I didn't say it wasn't a trope, actually I said though it is, that doesn't make it a bad story,there are other things, like Amy sleeping with her best friends boyfriend that make it a bad story. That, too, is a trope btw, a girl screwing the guy her friend likes to hurt her. Been there, done that, doesn't mean Faking It shouldn't put their spin on the story. And that is the thing, just because something is a trope doesn't mean a show shouldn't tackle it. That would make for very few shows and the ones that would make it would be too ridiculous to watch since they'd be avoiding almost every story ever told.

[Cranberry]

I didn't like Amy sleeping with Liam either, and I'm as sick of "TV lesbians" sleeping with men as the next person, but Amy's not a confirmed lesbian, at least not yet. Despite what Rita has said in interviews (information that Carter never backed her up on), as far as Amy's concerned, she's still questioning. So, while I dislike that she slept with Liam and I wish the writers had figured out some other way to have her and Karma at odds/drifting apart, I don't put this in the same category as, say, Tea from Skins US (an out lesbian) sleeping with a guy. The rationalization there was that none of the girls she'd ever met were her intellectual match; they were all just boring and "catty and clingy," and this guy Tony was the only person who could keep up with her (he literally told her, "I can match you. You've met your match"). It was insulting.

[dohe]

I think at this point well all know what a trope is, but thank you for explaining it yet again. I didn't say it wasn't a trope, actually I said though it is, that doesn't make it a bad story,there are other things, like Amy sleeping with her best friends boyfriend that make it a bad story. That, too, is a trope btw, a girl screwing the guy her friend likes to hurt her. Been there, done that, doesn't mean Faking It shouldn't put their spin on the story. And that is the thing, just because something is a trope doesn't mean a show shouldn't tackle it. That would make for very few shows and the ones that would make it would be too ridiculous to watch since they'd be avoiding almost every story ever told.

Apparently you still don't know what a trope is.  The word "overused" apparently escapes you.  You act as if lesbians sleeping with or making out with men is not done there is a dearth of lesbian storylines to be told.  Do you have the same reaction when a straight man does not sleep with a guy?  Do you say gee what story can be told because if a straight guy doesn't end up sleeping with a guy we are all out of storylines?  Of course not.  Such rationalizations for the lesbian sleeps with or makes out with a man trope explain why this trope continues to be used so excessively.

 

Cranberry, it is still rationalization.  Actually as horrendous as the Tea storyline was, showing a lesbian's response to being rejected as being searching out a penis to ride is almost as offensive.  It is also quite clear that they threw in the Amy and Brazilian guy bit to quell the reactions to the Amy/Liam hookup.  Just a lazy retcon so they can go well see Amy was still unsure whether she is a lesbian so you can't call it the trope. 

 

As long as we defend this junk, show runners will continue to depict this junk. 

Edited November 23, 2014 by dohe

[Cranberry]

I hated the Brazilian guy bit, don't get me wrong, but it wasn't a retcon. Amy has never said she's a lesbian. Shane has asked her, Karma has asked her, her mom has asked her, Reagan has tried to push her to state it publicly, but Amy has never truthfully said she was a lesbian. (I'm not counting anything she said publicly while she and Karma were faking their relationship, obviously.) I see your point and I definitely did my fair share of complaining about the ending last season, but we can't refer to Amy as a lesbian, because as of this point, she's not.

 

If Reagan sleeps with a guy, or if Amy "officially" comes out and then has sex with a guy, I will be one of the people raging the loudest... but for now, I'm annoyed that the Amy/Liam hookup happened, but not insulted.

[Cranberry]

I got a request to split this discussion off into its own thread because it's taking over the episode threads, so here is your place to discuss gender, sexuality, and the Faking It writers' use of tropes involving these subjects. If someone has a better title suggestion, let me know!

[Mabinogia]

I agree Cranberry, until Amy comes out and says that she is indeed a lesbian we can't say what her sexuality is. She's still exploring it. That is interesting enough to me to allow that Amy, not yet a confirmed lesbian, would sleep with Liam.

 

Amy to explore her sexuality rather than having to define herself as a lesbian because she had an attraction to her best friend. So often on TV one goes from straight to gay in a blink. Shows don't often show the exploration. You've either got a gay kid who knew before we met them or someone who flips a switch and is gay. I am enjoying the journey as Amy tries to figure out what her attraction to Karma really means.

 

How many women has Amy slept with? Dated? Crushed over? How many guys? Until she knows what she is interested in we don't know. Right now we only know she is in love with Karma, but one girl crush does not a lesbian make, nor does one romp with a boy make her hetro. She's just Amy. I find her a fascinating character, second only to Lauren, whom I love.  

 

So the guy portion of it all didn't bug me as much as who the guy was.

 

That is what I hated most about the storyline. It felt out of character that she would try to hurt Karma THAT much!. And that is the point. It wasn't about Amy sleeping with a guy. It was about Amy sleeping with the one guy that would kill Karma. That's a shitty thing to do, but when emotions are that strong, it happens. So as much as I hated it, I get what they were trying to accomplish with it. I just find Liam boring so it's hard for me to feel too bad about it all. Both girls are better off without him in their lives in any aspect.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Mabinogia

[dohe]

Cranberry, I believe it's a retcon and a rather blatant one.  They took so much heat for that bogus, offensive ending that they decided lets show her as still finding herself.  That way they could go look, despite what we showed in the first 9 episodes of last year she really is physically attracted to men.  

I agree Cranberry, until Amy comes out and says that she is indeed a lesbian we can't say what her sexuality is. She's still exploring it. That is interesting enough to me to allow that Amy, not yet a confirmed lesbian, would sleep with Liam.

 

Amy to explore her sexuality rather than having to define herself as a lesbian because she had an attraction to her best friend. So often on TV one goes from straight to gay in a blink. Shows don't often show the exploration. You've either got a gay kid who knew before we met them or someone who flips a switch and is gay. I am enjoying the journey as Amy tries to figure out what her attraction to Karma really means.

 

How many women has Amy slept with? Dated? Crushed over? How many guys? Until she knows what she is interested in we don't know. Right now we only know she is in love with Karma, but one girl crush does not a lesbian make, nor does one romp with a boy make her hetro. She's just Amy. I find her a fascinating character, second only to Lauren, whom I love.  

 

 

That is what I hated most about the storyline. It felt out of character that she would try to hurt Karma THAT much!. And that is the point. It wasn't about Amy sleeping with a guy. It was about Amy sleeping with the one guy that would kill Karma. That's a shitty thing to do, but when emotions are that strong, it happens. So as much as I hated it, I get what they were trying to accomplish with it. I just find Liam boring so it's hard for me to feel too bad about it all. Both girls are better off without him in their lives in any aspect.

So let me get this right.  The journey for all lesbians, according to you, goes through a penis.  Lesbians cannot figure out who they are attracted to men without having sex with a man.  Lesbians need to undergo an exploration of men before they decide they like women.

 

So by this logic of yours, you believe all straight men must find out about their heterosexuality by having sex with men, all straight women must find out about their heterosexuality by having sex with women, and all gay men must find out about their homosexuality by having sex with women.  So needless to say when straight men don't have sex with a guy on a show or straight women don't have sex with a woman on a show and when gay men don't have sex with a woman on a show, they are failing to properly show the "journey" (red flag as this term is consistently used in the rationalization of the lesbian sleeps with a man trope) and you are outraged. 

 

Or do you have this rationalization only for lesbians?   That is the problem.  There is always the rationalization and the persons who rationalize never seem to ask why this is the norm.  Why is it that the expectation is if it involves a lesbian or lesbian couple, one or the other is going to have had a child with a man, make out with a man or sleep with a man?  You don't turn on every show that has straight male characters and go when are they sleeping with the opposite sex.  You don't turn on every show that has gay male characters and go when are they sleeping with a woman.  But when it is a lesbian it is going to happen almost every time.  The last thing this trope needs are these rationalizations. 

 

BTW, Amy is currently dating a woman. I would guess she has more than a crush on Reagan.

Edited November 23, 2014 by dohe

[Mabinogia]

LOL I am impressed at how well you twist words dohe.

Edited November 23, 2014 by Mabinogia

[Cranberry]

They definitely showed her as being attracted to/having feelings for Karma, but she wasn't sure if she liked women in general. There were no other girls in the picture last season, aside from one that she threw herself at in an attempt to see if she'd like kissing another girl (and of course, that went nowhere). 

 

I agree that she's really into Reagan (she had sex with her, after all, and enjoyed it, and she did it while sober). I still think that Amy will realize she's a lesbian in the future. She's just not there yet. And yes, it does suck that so many TV lesbians sleep with a man while on their "journey," and I wish that writers could get some new ideas, but I still don't find it insulting when a canon questioning/possible bisexual girl sleeps with a man.

[wayne67]

So far Amy the character in her journey

 

Assumed she was straight or had never bothered to think about it much

 

Kissed Karma mind blown by chemistry/feelings/ whatever. Confused about whether she's lesbian or other seeks out Shane

 

Shane asks questions Amy has no idea

 

Amy kisses a girl on a first date and feels less attracted to her than Karma and calls her a Karmasexual. Shane rolls his eyes

 

Karma ropes Amy into a fake threesome with Liam for reasons that only make sense to Karma

 

Liam and Amy kiss and apparently it's not terrible and there's enough visible chemistry for Karma to freak out and bail.

 

Amy gets completely trashed at her mothers wedding as she feels herself losing everyone she loves to men (her mother/Karma) she has drunken blackout sex that she ends up regretting the morning after and she literally kicks him out of bed.

 

At no point does the character state she's a lesbian. The closest she came was announcing it on national tv to spite her mother with her fake girlfriend Karma and since half of that was based on a lie and Karma thought it was a lie. I'm not counting it.

 

Personally I'd like to see more men on tv questioning their sexuality and exploring their sexuality but double standards do exist and lesbians on tv are more popular than gay men which is why gay men are usually relegated to comedic sidekicks or so campy as to be obvious and their love lives are filled with meaningless one night stands (jack from will and grace).

[dohe]

Cranberry, if Amy states she is a lesbian will you admit the show was offensive and indulged in the trope because it, like most shows, feels a lesbian's journey involves the inability to process they are a lesbian without having sex with or making out with men/that all lesbians deep down want to be with a guy at least once? 

So far Amy the character in her journey

 

Assumed she was straight or had never bothered to think about it much

 

Kissed Karma mind blown by chemistry/feelings/ whatever. Confused about whether she's lesbian or other seeks out Shane

 

Shane asks questions Amy has no idea

 

Amy kisses a girl on a first date and feels less attracted to her than Karma and calls her a Karmasexual. Shane rolls his eyes

 

Karma ropes Amy into a fake threesome with Liam for reasons that only make sense to Karma

 

Liam and Amy kiss and apparently it's not terrible and there's enough visible chemistry for Karma to freak out and bail.

 

Amy gets completely trashed at her mothers wedding as she feels herself losing everyone she loves to men (her mother/Karma) she has drunken blackout sex that she ends up regretting the morning after and she literally kicks him out of bed.

 

At no point does the character state she's a lesbian. The closest she came was announcing it on national tv to spite her mother with her fake girlfriend Karma and since half of that was based on a lie and Karma thought it was a lie. I'm not counting it.

 

Personally I'd like to see more men on tv questioning their sexuality and exploring their sexuality but double standards do exist and lesbians on tv are more popular than gay men which is why gay men are usually relegated to comedic sidekicks or so campy as to be obvious and their love lives are filled with meaningless one night stands (jack from will and grace).

I highly doubt Volk lied in the interview.  That means the show is operating under the "tv lesbian" stereotype right?  It is one or the other after all.  The "tv lesbian" being a lesbian who desires, at some point, to make out with or have sex with a man.  If it is the latter are you going to really rationalize that stereotype that is constantly perpetuated by tv?

 

BTW, the "journey" rationalization is a common one for this trope.  You seem to comprehend the double standard so I am stunned you would attempt that rationalization.  

 

Again as long as these clichés, stereotypes and tropes are pushed as the norm, there is no progress.

Edited November 24, 2014 by dohe

[wayne67]

Cranberry, if Amy states she is a lesbian will you admit the show was offensive and indulged in the trope because it, like most shows, feels a lesbian's journey involves the inability to process they are a lesbian without having sex with or making out with men/that all lesbians deep down want to be with a guy at least once? 

 

I highly doubt Volk lied in the interview.  That means the show is operating under the "tv lesbian" stereotype right?  It is one or the other after all.  The "tv lesbian" being a lesbian who desires, at some point, to make out with or have sex with a man.  If it is the latter are you going to really rationalize that stereotype that is constantly perpetuated by tv?

 

BTW, the "journey" rationalization is a common one for this trope.  You seem to comprehend the double standard so I am stunned you would attempt that rationalization.  

 

Again as long as these clichés, stereotypes and tropes are pushed as the norm, there is no progress.

 

Noone said Rita Volk lied. I said AMY THE CHARACTER. Whatever the actor knows about the character or thinks she knows about the character is irrelevant.

 

As a writer sometimes my characters do random things that I don't expect. It is part of the process of them developing an inner life.

 

Amy the character is a 15-16 year old girl confused by her feelings by her best friend Karma and what it means about her life. Which is the entire basis of the show. Their relationship issues are a secondary conflict, whether they'll end up friends, lovers or strangers is unknown.

 

Karma rejected Amy's love and the morning after was bugging her to be back to normal. The Liam thing was a way to force a seperation between the two inseperable characters so they can grow. The first season had Karma and Amy drift apart because of the lies they were keeping from each other and the second season is watching the fall out. Presumably if there's a 3rd season they'll explore and rebuild their relationship into a new format where Karma either hooks up with Amy or learns to deal with being second place in Amy's life.

 

I would have prefered Amy to have hooked up with that random waiter girl instead of Liam because Liam is boring not because he's a guy. There are tonnes of borderline tropes in this show that they're subverting Alpha Bitch, Campy gay best friend, Unpopular girl, Jock. At least this show skipped the makeover and went straight to lies and subterfuge instead.

 

[Cranberry]

dohe, it's a separate issue for me. Yes, I am annoyed that so many TV lesbians sleep with men before they eventually come out as lesbians. That does happen in real life, but it's not how every lesbian's life goes; many lesbians knew from a very young age that they were gay and never even considered sleeping with a man. It's annoying that we rarely see lesbians like that on TV (at least on teen shows).

 

However, that is much less offensive to me than when a show has an out lesbian -- like Skins' Tea -- sleep with a man. That will cause me to drop a show. A questioning girl (especially one like Amy, who was sure she only liked boys right up until she kissed a girl for the first time) sleeping with a guy will not.

 

I also don't think that the writers are attempting to say anything about all lesbians wanting to be with a guy at least once. I think you're reading too much into Covington's choices there.

[dohe]

dohe, it's a separate issue for me. Yes, I am annoyed that so many TV lesbians sleep with men before they eventually come out as lesbians. That does happen in real life, but it's not how every lesbian's life goes; many lesbians knew from a very young age that they were gay and never even considered sleeping with a man. It's annoying that we rarely see lesbians like that on TV (at least on teen shows).

 

However, that is much less offensive to me than when a show has an out lesbian -- like Skins' Tea -- sleep with a man. That will cause me to drop a show. A questioning girl (especially one like Amy, who was sure she only liked boys right up until she kissed a girl for the first time) sleeping with a guy will not.

 

I also don't think that the writers are attempting to say anything about all lesbians wanting to be with a guy at least once. I think you're reading too much into Covington's choices there.

We will have to respectfully disagree on how offensive Covington's belabored usage of this trope is.  However I think we can both see how heavy the damage is to representation when persons defend it with classic rationalizations.  It is very intriguing that "confusion", "experimentation", "exploration" etc. are all used as rationalizations for a tv lesbian's "journey" involving making out with or sleeping with a man.  As if no tv lesbians have the capability of realizing what they desire until they have made out or have sex with a man.  That said, I do get where Tea's storyline was more offensive but the same rationalizations were used there.  However words like journey and confusion and exploration were common then just as rationalizations were too,

 

It is always almost exclusively lesbians taking this journey.  And people rationalize it with the same buzzwords over and over.  My favorite is "fluidity" which has pretty much been distorted until it exists solely as a rationalization for depicting lesbians making out or having sex with men on tv. 

 

To see this tired trope defended and see the big picture disregarded is demoralizing. It demonstrates the lack of progress that is being made in lesbian representation that rationalization is happening for such a contrived action which again uses the hoariest LGBT trope of them all.  As for Volk, she said what she said in that interview and she is darn specific in there. 

 

Anyways this is going nowhere.  However thanks Cranberry for understanding why this is a touchy issue and not being dismissive about how tired out this nauseating trope is.

 

Edited November 24, 2014 by dohe

[wayne67]

Questioning and confused are legitimate issues for some people fictional and otherwise. It's not necessarily a rationalisation.

 

I'm still wondering about Shane's kiss of Karma. Did he expect some sort of reaction when he kissed her ?

 

Terrible decisions aren't made only by tv lesbian characters. For instance on As the World Turns, a male character starts off "straight" including a girlfriend meets a cute guy has feelings, questions, gets into a semi relationship with a guy and proceeds to have sex with his ex girlfriend without using protection. That's annoying since noone in that town uses birth control and he went through a whole journey figuring out he's gay and cheated on his bf.

 

Amy and Liam were both technically single people engaging in poor decision making.

 

There's also gay male characters having relationships with women in highschool/college as camoflage or because they're in denial Max from Happy Endings. Tropes such as "Beards" and "In the closet" happen with gay male characters and noone takes their lapses to mean anything.  There are also the straight males/jocks who  have consensual or nonconsexual sex with gay guys and then beat or kill them afterwards. Justin from Queer as Folk springs to mind, The main character from Bug Crush and a whole bunch of depressing gay movies/ tv shows.

[dohe]

Questioning and confused are legitimate issues for some people fictional and otherwise. It's not necessarily a rationalisation.

 

I'm still wondering about Shane's kiss of Karma. Did he expect some sort of reaction when he kissed her ?

 

Terrible decisions aren't made only by tv lesbian characters. For instance on As the World Turns, a male character starts off "straight" including a girlfriend meets a cute guy has feelings, questions, gets into a semi relationship with a guy and proceeds to have sex with his ex girlfriend without using protection. That's annoying since noone in that town uses birth control and he went through a whole journey figuring out he's gay and cheated on his bf.

 

Amy and Liam were both technically single people engaging in poor decision making.

 

There's also gay male characters having relationships with women in highschool/college as camoflage or because they're in denial Max from Happy Endings. Tropes such as "Beards" and "In the closet" happen with gay male characters and noone takes their lapses to mean anything.  There are also the straight males/jocks who  have consensual or nonconsexual sex with gay guys and then beat or kill them afterwards. Justin from Queer as Folk springs to mind, The main character from Bug Crush and a whole bunch of depressing gay movies/ tv shows.

These examples aren't all that comparable.  In the cases you mentioned, it is not a matter of questioning or having some out of the blue desire but of hiding one's sexuality on purpose.  Amy was known as a lesbian by pretty much everyone when she had sex with Liam.  She did not enter a romance with Liam to present a straight persona nor did she have sex with him due to some desire to make herself straight.  Instead she had sex with him to provide conflict for the show and because that is what tv lesbians do.   

 

It is also not a trope when a gay male has sex with a woman or makes out with a woman because gay men don't overwhelmingly have sex with or make out with women on shows.  To be a trope it has to be overused.  Justin, on Queer as Folk, having sex with his female friend because she practically begs him is not the normal representation.  It is the rare exception.  And that is the problem.  You are mentioning exceptions.  With tv lesbians, it is not the exception to make out with the opposite sex.  It is the rule.  Which is why it is a tired trope let alone how contrived it was presented.

 

As for Shane kissing Karma, I don't know why you are using that example.  After all, all it does is show the double standard.  The show is basically saying a man's sexuality is fixed.  When Shane kisses Karma it is mocking the possibility of a gay male showing possible attraction to a woman.  Hence the response by Shane being so firm.  The show is all but saying gay men, unless they are purposefully hiding their sexuality (like Shane's boyfriend when he comes on to Lauren), aren't going to express interest in women.  It is double standard all the way. 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2014 by dohe

[wayne67]

My point was if Shane never feels anything for any female than what was he expecting when he kissed Karma ? Fireworks, chemistry, sparkly lip gloss flavoring?

 

It seemed to imply that Shane while being an out and proud gay man may have at one point or another had some physical reaction to a girl at some point. Otherwise it would have been like him kissing cardboard and finding it weird he didn't get a boner. There has to be a potential for sexual attraction for there to be disappointment/confusion that nothing 'sparked'.

 

As for male sexuality being fixed on this show I'd imagine it's more of a laziness thing since with the possible exception of Liam none of the male characters have been fleshed out that much. Amy's father doesn't seem to exist, Lauren's father only got some major screen time in one episode, Shane exists mostly as emotional support for the questioning ingenue and Liam's father doesn't exist.

 

Though if we're being technical we have no idea how involved MMA man's Beard was in the deception or whether she was in a somewhat physical relationship with a guy. I don't think anyone has mentioned the use of the 'beard' other than Lauren. There's a gay guy having to go through a woman to achieve acceptance in the wider community. A very serious issue for gay men in the media, athletes, actors, musicians who have to play straight not to alienate their fans.

Edited January 15, 2015 by wayne67

[knaxx]

Taking some thoughts from the episode thread over here in response to this post:

 

I wonder if that was just bad writing on the shows part or if we are going to find out that Reagan takes everything as a massive betrayal?  The second option seems likely, since this episode was all about turning the audience against Reagan.

 

I agree that the show seems to be trying to get the audience to stop rooting for Reagan but I don't think they are making her insecurities completely unwarranted. But since Reagan is only a guest character who never got the same focus as certain male love interests, it doesn't matter because the audience will not focus on those tiny tibits about Reagan's past but on the fact that she is antagonistic towards the main struggle of the fan favorite main character. As seen by the post above, some viewers didn't even register the source of Reagan's issues.

 

I don't know if the show is doing it on purpose but judging by the discussions I have seen online, by giving both parties such an uneqal POV, the show is doing nothing but further the conflict between lesbians and bi/pan/questioning girls.

The majority of the fandom is obviously rooting for Amy and calling Reagan biphobic and intolerant for doubting Amy "just because of one bad experience" that is easy to minimize because Reagan was never fleshed out enough to make the general audience care about her with the same degree they care about the main characters.

Meanwhile many lesbians who are already disappointed by the direction this show has taken are looking at things from Reagan's POV and feel like they are being given an unfair treatment by the show as well as the fans who are dumping on Reagan without any sympathy for her side of things.

 

I don't know if it's a coincidence that Carter is married to the guy working on Chasing life but I'm seeing some very curious similarities. I appreciate shows representing bisexual girls or girls who are questioning their sexuality but I would appreciate it even more if those shows would stop throwing lesbians under the bus in order to show their struggles.

 

 

[dohe]

Taking some thoughts from the episode thread over here in response to this post:

 

I agree that the show seems to be trying to get the audience to stop rooting for Reagan but I don't think they are making her insecurities completely unwarranted. But since Reagan is only a guest character who never got the same focus as certain male love interests, it doesn't matter because the audience will not focus on those tiny tibits about Reagan's past but on the fact that she is antagonistic towards the main struggle of the fan favorite main character. As seen by the post above, some viewers didn't even register the source of Reagan's issues.

 

I don't know if the show is doing it on purpose but judging by the discussions I have seen online, by giving both parties such an uneqal POV, the show is doing nothing but further the conflict between lesbians and bi/pan/questioning girls.

The majority of the fandom is obviously rooting for Amy and calling Reagan biphobic and intolerant for doubting Amy "just because of one bad experience" that is easy to minimize because Reagan was never fleshed out enough to make the general audience care about her with the same degree they care about the main characters.

Meanwhile many lesbians who are already disappointed by the direction this show has taken are looking at things from Reagan's POV and feel like they are being given an unfair treatment by the show as well as the fans who are dumping on Reagan without any sympathy for her side of things.

 

I don't know if it's a coincidence that Carter is married to the guy working on Chasing life but I'm seeing some very curious similarities. I appreciate shows representing bisexual girls or girls who are questioning their sexuality but I would appreciate it even more if those shows would stop throwing lesbians under the bus in order to show their struggles.

I have also noticed the Faking It/Chasing Life similarities.  I posted this before the latest episode of Faking It - on the Chasing Life forum. 

I watched the nauseating Faking It last night and the guy who plays Finn on Chasing Life is now on that show - his acting is no better on that one.  It seems the guy in charge of Faking It and the guy in charge of Chasing Life are married.  Faking It has received harsh responses from many concerning it's queerbaiting lesbians.  Could the storylines this season on Chasing Life be a response by the show to the treatment of the other show?  Could the show and Faking It for that matter be offering up an anvil laden critique of those critics?  Could it be a sort of how dare you not go along with our all women who like women also like men philosophy response by the people in charge?

 

I am offering this up now.  First I want to see if Faking It does two things.  One I want to see if they have the character of Amy on that show end up in a romance with the guy from Chasing Life.  Two I want to see if a lesbian character on Faking It is presented in a negative light and even possibly biphobic.  There is a minor lesbian character on that show named Reagan, a romantic partner for Amy who, unlike Liam, the boyfriend of the other woman, is pretty much kept on the fringes.  Will she show anger at Amy when she finds out Amy has slept with a man and come across as biphobic?  Will this new guy be the love interest for Amy?  If so, it will certainly start to mirror Chasing Life and I can't help thinking that it won't be an accident.

 

People who run programs can take it personal.  I don't definitively know that is the case here but here are two things that catch my attention.

 

1.  Faking It comes under heavy criticism for having female characters kissing each other for attention.  The latest season of Chasing Life has Brenna, a character as with Amy who does not label herself and is attracted to both sexes - though unlike Amy she doesn't come across as a retcon, kissing her best female friend Ford.  They are not attracted to each other.  Brenna instead does this to please a man who she can't kiss due to health reasons.  The kiss, which figured in promotions, is shown to be positive and the right thing to do.  The next day at school Brenna and the man, Finn played by the same actor playing Felix in Faking It, are pleased when others congratulate Finn on such a wonderful thing happening.  This really caught my eye.  It was as if Chasing Life was saying when it comes down to it, it is really about men's desires being fulfilled by a woman even when it something like a same sex kiss between women.  Is this a response to the anger towards Faking It?

 

2.  There have been 4 lesbian characters on the 2nd season of Chasing Life.  They travel the spectrum from stalking to psychopath.  The latest was presented as being repulsed by women who date both men and women and was scolded by Brenna's male love interest Finn for being a bigot - Finn is shown as a perfect guy bravely fighting cancer while never saying or doing a wrong thing.  He is a saint as with the straight male character Liam on Faking It.  Will Felix on Faking It be the same?  What we do know is lesbians, going by Chasing Life's 2nd season and Faking It are clingy, obsess over ex's, and are repulsed by women who show interest in men. 

 

I also think there is something missing in the discussion when it comes to this issue.  Most romances on network television and cable television are between a man and a woman.  Television has long leaned heavily to having women who want a woman also be attracted to men.  It is progressive that those women are not being labeled as lesbians who can't help liking a man or a straight woman on a fling as much as they used to be.  Still people want to see romances they can relate to and when so many of the few women who like women on tv end up with a guy, it is lost visibility.  When a character like Greer, a character beloved by fans and with an intense romantic chemistry with Brenna, on Chasing Life goes away so the program can get Brenna with a guy it makes sense the audience would be disappointed.  The same goes with Amy after Reagan leaves - a certainty in my opinion - so they can hook Amy up with Felix.  That this only seems to happen with women who like women on tv - bisexuality among men on tv is rarity and the term fluidity almost solely comes up only about women who like women - only adds to the disappointment.  Biphobia is a problem but demonizing lesbian characters and not understanding the concern for visibility when it comes to romance between women does not help.   

 

On the Chasing Life thread someone mentioned Degrassi.  While that show is cheesy, it gets it.   It comprehends visibility.  It depicts bisexuality and pansexuality with a sharp eye.  The guys running Chasing Life and Faking It could learn a lesson from that program. 

Edited September 12, 2015 by dohe

[knaxx]

Biphobia is a problem but demonizing lesbian characters and not understanding the concern for visibility when it comes to romance between women does not help.

 

 

That is my main problem right now.

As far as I remember, nobody attacked Amy the character at the end of s1 for sleeping with a dude. People were upset with Amy for sleeping with her best friend's boyfriend and they were upset with the writers for using offensive, overused tropes but nobody was bashing Amy for possibly liking men or being confused.

It seems to me like the writers are equating criticism about the lack of good representation that is thrown in their direction with people hating on bisexuality in general.

Not sure if it's done deliberately but to me it feels like a more subtle version of the "angry lesbian blogger" line from glee. Only instead of openly calling the disapproving fans names, the writers are turning the only lesbian on the show into a negative stereotype of the biphobic lesbian and call her out within the story. That way they can adress their critics without openly coming off as jerks and simultaneously downplay their complaints by pretending it's just intolerance towards bisexuality.

 

I don't know if the show will eventually have Amy date that Felix guy. The only thing that is already obvious is that Felix is getting a much more solid introduction than Reagan, Duke or Zita got. Their main/only plot purpose is to be somebody's love interest while Felix gets introduced as his own charcter. He's the son of the principle, he's living in Karma's house, he goes to school with everybody... Should he end up a love interest, that relationship is definitely gonna be deeper than any other relationshop save for Karma/Amy and Karma/Liam.

The really ironic thing is though that even many of the bisexual fans of the show agree that most of the times, what is invalidated are their relationships with women.

And yes, sometimes that invalidation comes from lesbains, which can/should be adressed.

Only the way to do that is not by turning Reagan, aka the only lesbian on the show, into a biphobic jerk while lowkey proving her right by giving Amy's relationship with a boy more focus and validation.

In the end, they are neither helping lesbians, nor bisexuals with that kind of storytelling.

Hopefully it won't come to that though :)

[wayne67]

 

2.  There have been 4 lesbian characters on the 2nd season of Chasing Life.  They travel the spectrum from stalking to psychopath.  The latest was presented as being repulsed by women who date both men and women and was scolded by Brenna's male love interest Finn for being a bigot - Finn is shown as a perfect guy bravely fighting cancer while never saying or doing a wrong thing.  He is a saint as with the straight male character Liam on Faking It.  Will Felix on Faking It be the same?  What we do know is lesbians, going by Chasing Life's 2nd season and Faking It are clingy, obsess over ex's, and are repulsed by women who show interest in men.

 

Liam is a saint ? I don't think anyone in the show or fandom think Liam is a saint. In the show he gets criticised by Karma for being a rich kid, an artistic poseur, a shallow guy who wanted to bed a lesbian and is currently being raked over the coals for having a drunken one night stand with her best friend.

 

Fandom is even less pleasant about him, insulting the actor for lack of talent, blaming him for having screen time, blaming the character for existing or being present and getting in the way of Karma and Amy and their co dependent relationship.

 

I'm more concerned that Reagan decided drugging someone was a good way of getting revenge. That was so completely out of line. I was really hoping Liam or his father would fire the both of them for being completely unprofessional and potentially ruining a million dollar product launch by being petty highschoolers.

 

Except Reagan is even more insecure than Karma and she doesn't even have the excuse of being in high school.

 

Moving on I'd like to see Amy try dating other girls or boys and see what she likes. I don't see why she should have to tie herself down to a sexual identity at 15 to make other people happy.

Edited September 29, 2015 by wayne67