S03.E02: A DEAL WITH THE DEVIL

[AnimeMania]

Mark takes a stand, unaware of the ramifications for his family, the GDA, and even the Guardians. Cecil remembers his past and Eve makes an important decision.

Premiere Date: February 6, 2025  Prime Video

[thuganomics85]

Finally got ourselves some Cecil flashbacks!  Nothing too surprising there, but it helps explain why he is the way he is now.  Almost wished we got a full episode of how he became king of that prison, because that had to involve a lot of work! 

As for his actions now, I suspect it will end with him being in the wrong and maybe even his downfall, but I don't think he's completely wrong about Mark possibly going off the deep end in some form.  I don't think he'll end up like his dad, but he clearly has shown to have a temper and with that kind of power, it can really be deadly.

The Guardians definitely took a big hit as almost all of them left after finding out the truth about Cecil, what he did to Mark, and who else he is working with, and that leaves them with just the Immortal, Black Samson, Dupli-Kate, Shapesmith, and a newly recruited Darkwing.  Yeah, I guess we will see just how reformed that latter is....

Mark and Eve talk it out and it looks like they are now officially dating! 

[iarwain]

On 2/6/2025 at 10:16 PM, thuganomics85 said:

As for his actions now, I suspect it will end with him being in the wrong and maybe even his downfall, but I don't think he's completely wrong about Mark possibly going off the deep end in some form.  I don't think he'll end up like his dad, but he clearly has shown to have a temper and with that kind of power, it can really be deadly.

Yeah, I imagine this will end with Darkwing falling back into doing some terrible things.  I get the impression we're supposed to be siding with Mark in this, but I can't help but see Cecil's point of view as well.  To me, Mark is coming off as very self-righteous, and refuses to see anybody's opinion but his own.  With his powers and that attitude, he's basically setting himself up as judge, jury, and executioner.

[Ottis]

All of this story is basically a repeat of some of the Superman movies, where human leaders wrestle with how to deal with a superhuman who, if he chose to, could wreak havoc on humanity and the planet. Yes, he says he is the good guy; but what if....

I'm not sure why Mark and the other Guardians don't see that. Especially since they have the recent history of Omni Man and if his peers who have shown up here and there. It's no wonder why humans are wary.

I totally get Cecil's POV, and the "be the good guys or save the planet, but not both."

Also, how exhausting is it to be a Guardian? Seems like they fight something almost every day.

On 2/11/2025 at 8:25 PM, iarwain said:

Yeah, I imagine this will end with Darkwing falling back into doing some terrible things.  I get the impression we're supposed to be siding with Mark in this, but I can't help but see Cecil's point of view as well.  To me, Mark is coming off as very self-righteous, and refuses to see anybody's opinion but his own.  With his powers and that attitude, he's basically setting himself up as judge, jury, and executioner.

With a temper, no less.

[iarwain]

And Mark has grabbed Cecil by the throat several times.  Isn't that assault?  It doesn't matter that he warned him to stay away from his family.  By Mark's own reasoning, he should be tried as a criminal.  If he doesn't cooperate, he's guilty of resisting arrest.  Also, he's now acting as a vigilante.  Mark's position is completely hypocritical.

[Chicago Redshirt]

There's a big difference between being wary of superhumans and developing safeguards to prevent another Chicago on the one hand and actually employing them well short of an actual threat.

The things Cecil has done to Mark are far harsher than any his agency tried to do to Omni-Man. Now part of that may simply be that they didn't have the means or the knowledge or the time to deploy some of those countermeasures. They only found out about the vulnerability to hypersonics after Nolan left, for example. 

This brings to mind the Justice League storyline in which it came out that Batman had devised countermeasures for every member of the Justice League that got stolen and then were used against them. Even accepting that it's a logical and moral thing to do, I don't see how one could work alongside him again. It's worse in the Invincible setting, where they're working FOR Cecil and not merely alongside of him.

It's kind of gross that so many of the so-called Guardians would be willing to take Cecil's side after they saw him torture Mark for essentially no reason.

[Ottis]

40 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

This brings to mind the Justice League storyline in which it came out that Batman had devised countermeasures for every member of the Justice League that got stolen and then were used against them. Even accepting that it's a logical and moral thing to do, I don't see how one could work alongside him again. It's worse in the Invincible setting, where they're working FOR Cecil and not merely alongside of him.

Call me Team Cecil, then because I would have no issues working alongside Batman (or Cecil) and would understand what they did. It wasn't done to force the superpowered to do evil, it was done to protect those without powers if powered beings decided to harm them. Defensive vs. offensive (and using it to stop a rampaging Mark was defensive). Could it fall into the wrong hands? Sure, and that's an obvious plot angle. But unless Mark said, peacefully, that he was walking away, and Cecil tried to control him and do his bidding, no issues that a failsafe exists. Heck, look at The Boys for an example of what happens when one doesn't exist.

40 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's kind of gross that so many of the so-called Guardians would be willing to take Cecil's side after they saw him torture Mark for essentially no reason.

What part do you mean? When he used the sonic thing to calm an angry Mark? To talk with him? I have watched these sporadically so I may not remember your example.

 

Edited February 13 by Ottis

[Chicago Redshirt]

50 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Call me Team Cecil, then because I would have no issues working alongside Batman (or Cecil) and would understand what they did. It wasn't done to force the superpowered to do evil, it was done to protect those without powers if powered beings decided to harm them. Defensive vs. offensive (and using it to stop a rampaging Mark was defensive). Could it fall into the wrong hands? Sure, and that's an obvious plot angle. But unless Mark said, peacefully, that he was walking away, and Cecil tried to control him and do his bidding, no issues that a failsafe exists. Heck, look at The Boys for an example of what happens when one doesn't exist.

What part do you mean? When he used the sonic thing to calm an angry Mark? To talk with him? I have watched these sporadically so I may not remember your example.

 

If inserting a failsafe device into someone's head without their knowledge or consent when they are completely vulnerable just because they MIGHT turn bad when they have been up till now completely rational and willing to work for the greater good voluntarily AND when they have committed no crime, and activating it repeatedly while claiming you only want to talk is within the ballpark of moral to you, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Mark wasn't rampaging until Cecil provoked him, IIRC. He brought Mark into that funky room and surrounded him with Reanimen. Mark reasonably considered that a threat. And then he wouldn't just let Mark calm down and try to talk to him rationally. Cecil could have done that without worrying about Mark being a threat to his personal safety. He wanted to demonstrate dominance over Mark immediately. 

I could get that it made sense to demonstrate that there was a countermeasure that existed. But Cecil IMO used it for far too long if trying to get Mark into a talking mood was his actual objective. Indeed, with the Guardians there, there could and should have been a "let's talk this through" without forcing Mark to submit to blinding pain and destroying all those Reanimen.

I also don't see how one can find what Cecil did to Mark acceptable but have an issue with Oliver killing an actual pair of bad guys who have killed, would kill more, and have no shot at rehabilitation. 

 

[iarwain]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

This brings to mind the Justice League storyline in which it came out that Batman had devised countermeasures for every member of the Justice League that got stolen and then were used against them. Even accepting that it's a logical and moral thing to do, I don't see how one could work alongside him again.

Superman GAVE Batman kryptonite to use against him, in case he turned evil.  Superman knows what an unstoppable weapon he would be.  Clearly Superman was okay with Batman having contingency plans.

Cecil used the sonics against Mark only to stop Mark from attacking him.  Having said that, I agree implanting the device in him without his knowledge was invasive.  But how else would he be stopped?  Omni Man killed all the Guardians, I'm sure they don't want a repeat of that.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 2/13/2025 at 5:43 PM, iarwain said:

Superman GAVE Batman kryptonite to use against him, in case he turned evil.  Superman knows what an unstoppable weapon he would be.  Clearly Superman was okay with Batman having contingency plans.

Cecil used the sonics against Mark only to stop Mark from attacking him.  Having said that, I agree implanting the device in him without his knowledge was invasive.  But how else would he be stopped?  Omni Man killed all the Guardians, I'm sure they don't want a repeat of that.

Superman did so voluntarily. If Batman had somehow procured Kryptonite without his knowledge and implanted it in his skull, I think Superman would not be too pleased about the countermeasure. I suspect that Superman would also be displeased if the kryptonite was shared with, say, Task Force X or some person/bureaucracy he can't/shouldn't trust. In the specific Tower of Babel storyline I was referencing, Batman's countermeasures for the Justice League were all done without their knowledge or consent, which caused a rift.

Getting back to the show, Cecil was saying "Let's talk" but his actions -- gathering like 40 Reanimen and deploying the sonics were not just a matter of self-defense.. He could have avoided the escalation of things by just talking to him in the first place. Even if one buys that it made sense for Cecil to have engaged in these countermeasures against Invincible lest he go the way of Nolan, and one buys that he needed to show Mark that the countermeasures were in place at this particular moment, I think Cecil crossed the line when he used the sonics on Mark at the Guardians HQ. Not only was there not an immediate need to confront Mark, not only would it have been smarter to let him cool down, but even if you accept the notion that he had to confront him right then and there, Cecil could have done so relatively safely with the Guardians there to keep the peace between him and Mark. But Cecil wanted to have things take place on his terms and didn't care if he had to torture Mark with sonics to get there.

While intellectually it makes sense that the Global Defense Agency would devise countermeasures like this, I would think that emotionally it would be tough to actually see that they had been created, and to see that Cecil would use them so cavalierly against Mark. I would think that if I were a Guardian, I would have to wonder what countermeasures they had for me, if they had implanted something in me without my consent, etc. 

[iarwain]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Getting back to the show, Cecil was saying "Let's talk" but his actions -- gathering like 40 Reanimen and deploying the sonics were not just a matter of self-defense.. He could have avoided the escalation of things by just talking to him in the first place.

I don't think Mark was in the mood to talk.  I guess it's the nature of comic books (and their adaptations) is that the characters tend to solve problems with their fists first and foremost.