S01.E09: The People in the Dirt

[AnimeMania]

Dolours breaks the IRA's code of silence.

Premiere Date: November 14, 2024      FX on Hulu  

[Danny Franks]

All of these scenes with the older versions of the characters just show a lot of people trapped by the past. Unable to move on either because of guilt and trauma or because they're true believers or because they're bitter and angry and don't know how to do anything else.

The Belfast Project was a chance for them all to unburden themselves, however truthful they wanted to be. Both Dolours and Brendan said Adams ordered Jean McConville's death.

The story of Jean being an informer is something the IRA have maintained, but her kids have always pointed out she never went anywhere or talked to anyone, so never would have had much useful information.

I appreciate that the show didn't accept everything Dolours said as gospel truth, that it pointed out that she was an addict and might have been blaming Adams out of revenge, or to get attention. And that both she and Brendan hated the peace process. I think most can conclude Adams was in it up to his beard, but there's no hard proof.

It was Patrick Radden Keefe's conclusion that Marian Price killed Jean McConville. I think in the book he said she talked about how Pat was going to do it but couldn't, so the third person with them did it. A person Dolours refused to identify but did say was still alive. Radden Keefe figured that Marian is the only person that Dolours would lie to protect.

[aghst]

Interesting series.

Have all the tapes been released publicly?

The Disappeared was presumably a small part of what the IRA did.  Yet they did a masterful job of depicting her story across the episodes, how the children couldn't  deal with what happened to their mother, even after they found her remains, they wanted justice, didn't get it.

Also interesting how quickly the Price sisters flipped, from trying non-violence to going all-in on the IRA.  Because of just the one peace march shown where they got beat up, where Dolours possibly could have been killed?

Apparently Marian was a true believer until the end and while Dolours is shown as having a crisis of conscience (Brendan as well), for a long time they never questioned orders and according to the show, it was Dolours who wanted to bomb London -- nobody got killed but you saw people being dismembered after the blast.

Early on, Dolours said the war will go on until Ireland is fully unified.  Of course that never happened and Gerry Adams got himself elected to the British Parliament.

Do the Irish in the Republic of Ireland still consider it an open wound that North Ireland is still part of the UK?  It doesn't seem like the Protestants were ever going to live under the rule of the Catholic majority.

So who were the victims of the IRA war?  Did they kill more civilians or British and Protestant soldiers and policemen who occupied Belfast?

It would be easier for them to go after soft targets but targeting civilians means they don't have the slightest moral authority.

[Sesquipedalia]

I didn't understand the concept of "passing around the gun." At first I thought it meant they were going to shoot the poor woman multiple times in rapid succession so no one knew whose bullet actually killed her, like a firing squad but with only one gun. But it looked like Dolours purposely shot off to the side and didn't hit her at all.

Anyway, it was an excellent series. I was constantly pausing it to Google information about the Troubles and the IRA, so I learned a lot from watching it. I might go back and read the book now.

I felt a little icky when I read that Jean McConville's children were against the show being made. That's totally understandable, but on the other hand, it's history, and it seems like it's something that should be told. It would be amazing if it resulted in any of the four Disappeared whose bodies are still missing being found.

[Danny Franks]

On 11/25/2024 at 12:56 AM, aghst said:

Interesting series.

Have all the tapes been released publicly?

The intention with the tapes was they they would only be released after the deaths of the interviewees, so they would speak with honesty knowing they could never be held to account for what they said and did. But Boston College were mistaken or misleading, because the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland) sued to gain access to some of them as part of criminal investigations. I don't think they were all published, and the remaining tapes were given to the interviewees to do with as they wished.

On 11/25/2024 at 12:56 AM, aghst said:

The Disappeared was presumably a small part of what the IRA did.  Yet they did a masterful job of depicting her story across the episodes, how the children couldn't  deal with what happened to their mother, even after they found her remains, they wanted justice, didn't get it.

A very small part, in the grand scheme of things. There were only 17 disappeared, in the over 3,500 people killed during the Troubles. I think most of those 17 were considered to have betrayed the IRA - like Joe Lynskey, Seamus and Kevin - so it was always a very sore spot because it was one side killing their own in such a secretive way.

On 11/25/2024 at 12:56 AM, aghst said:

Early on, Dolours said the war will go on until Ireland is fully unified.  Of course that never happened and Gerry Adams got himself elected to the British Parliament.

Do the Irish in the Republic of Ireland still consider it an open wound that North Ireland is still part of the UK?  It doesn't seem like the Protestants were ever going to live under the rule of the Catholic majority.

I don't think most people in the Republic think much about the north at all, unless they live near the border. Sinn Fein say they'll demand a referendum on a unified Ireland if they're ever elected to power in the south, and I'm sure there would be some nationalist pride if that ever came about, but the economics don't really make sense for the Republic. The north would cost them more money than it would bring in, and there are still Protestants in the north who feel more British than the British. I don't think the Republic would want to have to deal with them.

In the north, in my experience (and I spend quite a bit of time in Northern Ireland), most people don't really care that much anymore. One of the big issues that sparked the Troubles was the inequality and lack of civil rights that Catholics had:

Voting rights were tied to home ownership, and Catholics predominantly rented their houses while many more Protestants owned theirs. Protestants had access to better jobs, lived in better parts of the towns and cities and were dominant in local government and law enforcement (the Royal Ulster Constabulary was packed with men who were also involved with loyalist paramilitaries, similar to how police forces in the southern states of the US were full of Klan members).

That's all gone now. The disparity between Catholics and Protestants is far smaller, and barely noticeable in most places, although rural areas that are less well off are still predominantly Catholic. Many schools are now integrated, so Catholic and Protestant kids have grown up alongside one another. And religious fervour in general has declined.

The politics of the country is still quite polarised - with Sinn Fein and the Democratic Unionist Party being the dominant forces - but most people just get on with their lives and don't think too much about whether they're ruled from London or from Dublin.

On 11/25/2024 at 12:56 AM, aghst said:

So who were the victims of the IRA war?  Did they kill more civilians or British and Protestant soldiers and policemen who occupied Belfast?

It would be easier for them to go after soft targets but targeting civilians means they don't have the slightest moral authority.

About half of the deaths were civilians, the rest divided between military, police and terrorists on either side. But it wasn't just nationalist paramilitaries that carried out bombings, there were plenty of unionist paramilitaries too.

On 11/26/2024 at 7:05 AM, Sesquipedalia said:

Anyway, it was an excellent series. I was constantly pausing it to Google information about the Troubles and the IRA, so I learned a lot from watching it. I might go back and read the book now.

I would also recommend the five-part BBC documentary, Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland, for a more complete picture.

It's a fantastic series that interviews a whole range of people about their experiences, from paramilitary members on each side, to partisan civilians to people who refused to side with anyone, and British soldiers as well. Michael McConville, Jean's young son who loved pigeons, is one of the people interviewed.

[Sesquipedalia]

7 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I would also recommend the five-part BBC documentary, Once Upon a Time in Northern Ireland, for a more complete picture.

I will check it out. Thanks for the rec.

[Wee S]

I need to disagree with you on a number of points @Danny Franks.

Quote

In the north, in my experience (and I spend quite a bit of time in Northern Ireland), most people don't really care that much anymore.

They absolutely do care, which is why Lucid Talk border polls are so tight. I'm from a heavily Republican area, but with Nationalist sympathies and we know that Britain doesn't want us anymore therefore we would take reunification in a heartbeat. Just like on the other side, they will fight tooth and nail to stay in the union...it's the Alliance voters who split the difference and will be the decider in any border poll. As for the south actually wanting us? That's another matter.

 

Quote

Many schools are now integrated, so Catholic and Protestant kids have grown up alongside one another. 

Most schools are still segregated, however integrated schools are growing. Many nationalist/republican families will send their child to a CCMS school (supported/funded by the catholic church) and what counts as state schools is where unionist/loyalists will send their children. Even the GCSE History course has two options which are kinda segregated - most protestant schools avoid teaching about the civil rights movement. Teachers are still trained at different unis - St. Mary's vs Stranmillis! Most people mingle for the first time at university or in an across-the-barricades youth trip with kids from the other side.

A good show to catch is The Blame Game - full of Irish comedians taking the clean piss out of our absurd little statelet. Good outlet for our dark humour. It can be found on iplayer/youtube.

Edited December 3 by Wee S
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[aghst]

BTW, curious what people think of Derry Girls, which is also suppose to take place during this period, The Troubles?

[Wee S]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

BTW, curious what people think of Derry Girls, which is also suppose to take place during this period, The Troubles?

Derry Girls is in the 90s, at the tail end of the conflict. Many of us nordies are laughing at the reviews for this which say "love Derry Girls? Watch this!". They could not be further apart in focus, scope, time period, drama vs comedy...even where it's situated. Like, Martin McGuinness was an IRA commander in Derry and apparently he was not mentioned once in this (not that I've seen anyway), as it's mainly set in Belfast. I loved Derry Girls (I posted alot in the forum about how much I related to it) but yeah, this is a complete 180 from that. If you've ever heard of Kneecap and how they talk about generational trauma, this is that for me.