TV On The Edge: Moments That Shaped Our Culture

[DanaK]

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CNN 4 part doc series that premieres on Sunday September 22 at 9pm ET

Each episode of TV On the Edge identifies a different TV moment – whether from a sitcom, a drama, or a live event – as an entry point to examine salient and deep themes about our culture. Featuring never-before-heard details from those who were there and commentary from celebrities, TV insiders, politicians, journalists, comedians, and culture critics, the series showcases the power of television, the legacy of these iconic events, and the impact they have had on our lives.

Full press release https://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2024/08/28/cnn-explores-tv-on-the-edge-in-new-cnn-original-series-premiering-sunday-september-22-at-9pm-et-pt/

[Sarah 103]

Let me say I love the CNN documentary mini-series. They rarely disappoint. That being said, this is an election year and I remember what happened when they tried to air documentary mini-series during past election years.

My big question is how many episodes do they actually air before pre-empting the series because a candidate sneezed or showing the empty podium/stage and talking heads filling/killing time during the time slot because a candidate will be speaking at 10 PM east coast time/7 PM west coast time. 

[DanaK]

Trailer

 

[Annber03]

Well, if this isn't about as timely as it gets.

"I guess someone was trying to make Dan Quayle useful." 

Best. Quote. Ever XD. Either that or the little girl who was asked about the "potato" thing and simply said, "What an idiot." 

But yeah, for real, shut the hell up, Quayle. Who even asked him to weigh in? If he's worried about "moral values", then maybe he needs to take a look a little closer to home. 

I was a kid in the early '90s, so I don't really remember much about Bush/Quayle's presidency (though I do have some vague memories of Quayle being mocked for the "potato" thing). I have stronger memories of Clinton being elected in '92. But I have, since then, heard about the whole controversy over this topic. I've only ever seen the clip of Quayle going on about Murphy Brown, so I didn't realize, until this episode, that those comments had come within the context of a speech Quayle was giving about the L.A. riots. But man, his comments on that were certainly...yikes...as well, and I kind of wonder if that wasn't part of the reason he pivoted to the "Murphy Brown" thing. A comparatively easier controversy to deal with, instead of having to address and try and defend his racist comments about the riots. 

I will say, though, that it's hilarious that he and others like him were wringing their hands over children being raised in single parent homes, but then they were talking about how Quayle's ilk didn't like "The Simpsons", either, and showed clips of the family being violent with each other. Last I checked, in that show, Bart and Lisa's parents were married. I don't ever remember hearing about Murphy Brown's son getting violent with anyone, in the original or the reboot. 

But sure. Clearly one's propensity for violence is tied to whether or not their parents are married. Okay. 

To say nothing of the implication that it's apparently better for a child to be raised in a home with parents who are married but might not love each other, simply because "tradition" and "family values", rather than by a single parent. And of course, if Murphy had had an abortion, she'd have been raked over the coals for that, too (the bit from the show about women having legal choices - hoo, boy, did that hit hard). And people like Quayle think children should have fathers in their lives, but then they mock those fathers if they dare actually be, like, stay at home dads or get involved in the daily household chores, 'cause that's all "women's work". 

Make it make sense. 

I really appreciated the slideshow towards the end of how this "family values" BS rhetoric has expanded and continued on over the past 30 years. The groups being targeted may wax and wane, but the language remains the same, and the message is clear - if you don't fit their super narrow view of what a "traditional (Christian) family" looks like, you aren't welcome or accepted. Let's just hope that the people spouting that same kind of nonsense nowadays get the same message this time around that Bush/Quayle got in '92. 

On a much lighter note, the mini-reunion here was nice to see, as was hearing everyone's thoughts on the making of this storyline and the response to the controversy (which was perfection). This was a great start to this series, I'm looking forward to seeing what other notable moments are discussed. 

Edited September 23 by Annber03

[Sarah 103]

Until I watched this, I did not fully understand/appreciate the extent to which Quayle was a gift from the comedy gods. Also, was he really the only young Republican from the right geographic region Bush could have picked as his VP?

Since they had the speechwriter on camera, I wished she had done a better job or the person interviewing her had pressed her to explain the connection between the LA riots and Murphy Brown. It seemed like it was part of the speech and not an ad-lib/something he added while he was on stage. Essentially asking her "Why did you include this? Why did you think this was a good idea?" 

I am still not sure I understand how they went from point A to point B. Am I overthinking it? Is their viewpoint as simple as "Many of the rioters came from single mother households. Single mothers are a sign of declining moral values and are bad for America. Murphy Brown is a single mother, therefore, she is bad for America." 

Also, was Murphy Brown really that big, or was it just a really slow news week/cycle or a combination of both?  

 

[DanaK]

4 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Also, was Murphy Brown really that big, or was it just a really slow news week/cycle or a combination of both?  

It did very well for quite a few seasons, then not so great for the final 2 (11 seasons total). The baby stuff was big and the show had impact. Why else would Quayle even say anything? I believe it was the following season's premiere that had Murphy reacting to his comments. When Candice Bergen won an Emmy for that season, she thanked Quayle

I guess it was just considered a dumb tone-deaf remark since Murphy was a fictional character, but per Wikipedia, it also might have stood out because TV shows at the time were highlighting family values and then you had Murphy Brown being a single mother. But I'm not sure what Quayle would have preferred since Murphy's baby daddy was the one who chose not to participate in raising the baby and she chose to have it rather than abort it. Did he prefer she find some poor sap to act as a father? Or I guess he wasn't happy that the baby daddy was written to not want to settle down

 

[Annber03]

5 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I am still not sure I understand how they went from point A to point B. Am I overthinking it? Is their viewpoint as simple as "Many of the rioters came from single mother households. Single mothers are a sign of declining moral values and are bad for America. Murphy Brown is a single mother, therefore, she is bad for America." 

Yep, that's basically their position in a nutshell. The idea is that if kids are raised in a home with a mom and a dad, they will be less likely to go out and commit violent crimes. Or be non-religious. Or "confused" about sexuality (if we're talking about kids raised by same-sex parents). Or whatever other bad, or supposedly "bad", things they claim will happen to kids who aren't raised in the model "Leave it to Beaver" lifestyle. 

Which, obviously, is total bullshit for a whole host of reasons. But that's what people like Quayle genuinely believe, or at least, what they want to encourage others to believes, in order to push the kinds of policies they want. 

Also a good way to distract people from the fact that they don't have any plans to address any issues that aren't part of the culture war nonsense, like the economy or foreign affairs or things of that sort. 

[Annber03]

Yeow, that clip from Leno's show. That is brutal. Holy crap, dude. 

I did not see the infamous "wagon of fat" segment on Oprah's show, but in my case it was 'cause I was very young at the time, so I was still watching cartoons and whatnot :p. But I have heard about that moment and seen that clip since then - it was interesting getting the backstory on how that was set up. 

As for the main topic...yeah, the way issues around weight, especially women's weight, have been addressed and discussed on TV has been horrifyingly messed up for so long (Joan Rivers was clearly dealing with some deep insecurities about her looks as well, if the comments she was making are anything to go by). I appreciated the point one of the commenters made about how there was an article prasing John Goodman's acting...right after an article about Oprah's weight issues. No word about her career accomplishments and her show's success, or her thoughts on the issues of the day, or whatever. Nope. All about her weight. And, I mean, yeah, she inserted herself into the discussion about weight loss, but still, it shouldn't be the only thing people talk about or write about in regards to her. 

Of course, the tabloids certainly didn't help matters, either. 

Still, yeah, some of the advice and recommendations given had their own risks and issues, and also...she's not a doctor. This is stuff people should be looking to their doctors for advice about, not some daytime talk show host. Mind, given how shitty a lot of doctors can be when it comes to people's weight struggles, unfortunately, that's not always a solution, either. But I do think the fact that people turn to daytime talk shows instead of doctors for medical advice is one of many signs of just how messed up our healthcare system is in this country, on a whole host of levels. 

(I also was a bit amused at the thing about Oprah not wanting her show to delve into the sleaze and trash - an admirable goal, but then you see a clip of Dr. Phil, and then you remember Dr. Oz also got a boost from her show as well, and...yeah. But that's a whole other topic.)

[DanaK]

7 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Yeow, that clip from Leno's show. That is brutal. Holy crap, dude. 

I did not see the infamous "wagon of fat" segment on Oprah's show, but in my case it was 'cause I was very young at the time, so I was still watching cartoons and whatnot :p. But I have heard about that moment and seen that clip since then - it was interesting getting the backstory on how that was set up. 

As for the main topic...yeah, the way issues around weight, especially women's weight, have been addressed and discussed on TV has been horrifyingly messed up for so long (Joan Rivers was clearly dealing with some deep insecurities about her looks as well, if the comments she was making are anything to go by). I appreciated the point one of the commenters made about how there was an article prasing John Goodman's acting...right after an article about Oprah's weight issues. No word about her career accomplishments and her show's success, or her thoughts on the issues of the day, or whatever. Nope. All about her weight. And, I mean, yeah, she inserted herself into the discussion about weight loss, but still, it shouldn't be the only thing people talk about or write about in regards to her. 

Of course, the tabloids certainly didn't help matters, either. 

Still, yeah, some of the advice and recommendations given had their own risks and issues, and also...she's not a doctor. This is stuff people should be looking to their doctors for advice about, not some daytime talk show host. Mind, given how shitty a lot of doctors can be when it comes to people's weight struggles, unfortunately, that's not always a solution, either. But I do think the fact that people turn to daytime talk shows instead of doctors for medical advice is one of many signs of just how messed up our healthcare system is in this country, on a whole host of levels. 

(I also was a bit amused at the thing about Oprah not wanting her show to delve into the sleaze and trash - an admirable goal, but then you see a clip of Dr. Phil, and then you remember Dr. Oz also got a boost from her show as well, and...yeah. But that's a whole other topic.)

I have to say, I watched Oprah for years and her ups and downs on her weight (I think I watched the wagon of fat episode when it was telecast but I don’t recall for sure), and though I could see she didn’t have the control over it that she wanted with her yo-yo weight, I didn’t fully realize the amount of self-loathing she suffered until this episode. It’s awful how people pinged on her to be thin (Joan Rivers, yikes) but Oprah herself was putting herself out there and likely making it worse for herself and others, probably without fully realizing it. I’ve struggled with my weight since around puberty due to a medical condition and have done the “weight lost - weight regained” routine more than once so I definitely understand the problems of societal judgement. I’m waiting for the current weight loss drugs to mature and maybe get a handle on the side effects and perhaps go to pill form before I consider trying them. We appear to be in a more fat-accepting time but I doubt it will last given the huge popularity of the current weight loss drugs and the likely expectation that every overweight person should use them. The panel of overweight women were interesting to listen to

[Sarah 103]

I went into this episode skeptical, but it justified its existence/inclusion. They used Oprah's wagon of fat to tell a larger story about beauty, women, diet, and race in the late 1980s and 1990s. 

[Annber03]

Man, that card at the end of the episode. How incredibly moving and touching. I'm glad the writers got messages like that - a good balance to all the awful, hateful stuff they had to deal with. It's good that they got to see how that storyline proved helpful for some viewers, and gave them some hope in their darkest moments. 

I'm really appreciating the historical context in these episodes thus far. This one did a really good job of that, showing just how unusual it was to see any kind of LGBTQ+ representation, and positive representation at that, on TV. That 1950s video about "the dangers of the homosexual" was...yeow. 

And then to see all those hideous signs from protestors as well, and those peope on TV having total fits over the very idea of a gay person being portrayed in a positive light on  TV. That one idiot being all, "I don't make a big thing out of the fact I"m straight, who cares?" - well, obviously you care, lady, and very much at that, since, y'know, you're the one making a big stink about this on national TV. I really appreciate Oprah responding as she did to those kinds of complaints. 

Also, Nixon clearly had a very skewed view of history. And because it can't be said enough, STFU, Falwell.

It was interesting to get the badkstory on why the episode where Ellen came out was called "The Puppy Episode". Honestly, regardless of her sexual orientation, it's wild to me that the higher ups were so insistent that she needed to get a boyfriend at some point on her show. Was anyone pestering, say, Jerry Seinfeld to have his character on "Seinfeld" find a girlfriend or wife and settle down? If not, then why was it so important that Ellen need to be settling down instead of just dating if and when she felt like it? 

It just...really boggles my mind that such personal parts of people's lives are at the mercy of a bunch of men in boardrooms somewhere. How one's sexual orientation and dating life is portrayed, or whether Cher or Jeannie could show their belly buttons on national TV, or whether Lucy could say she was pregnant on TV, or things of that sort - all of that is controlled by some random group of people somewhere, and focus group-d, and whatnot. God forbid the actual people potraying these parts of themselves in such a public way get to have any input. 

And in the case of people like Ellen, you have that kind of control and restriction on top of the struggle to open up about a part of who you are, and we can't figure out why so many LGBTQ+ people struggle as they do. Gosh, yeah, it's a mystery. 

Anywho, very interesting episode. Frustrating in many ways, but interesting, and I appreciate that this show did help pave the way for more shows to embrace and explore LGBTQ+ storylines and characters and relationships. Obviously there's still hurdles and still ignorant people to deal with even now, but still, it is good to see the progress that has been made, and hopefully, will continue to be made. 

[DanaK]

I do feel that Ellen’s show didn’t know what kind of show it wanted to be throughout its run, perhaps mirroring Ellen’s internal struggles about not being publicly out. I do see the writer’s panel opinion that maybe there needed to be a season after Ellen came out to gently ease the audience in before the Ellen character went all out on exploring being gay, but at the same time, you normalize things…by normalizing things. But the audience wasn’t quite ready at the time and the show was a little ahead of its time, but it helped pave the way for acceptance of LGBTQ+ characters and relationships on TV.

Ellen herself suffered the consequences of being a bit too early and was on the outs with Hollywood for a number of years, then was back in with her talk show for years, then was out again because of toxic behavior by producers that she ignored or was clueless about

[Annber03]

I do wonder what the reason was for why the writers didn't return for the season after her character came out. Maybe if they'd stuck around things might've played out a little differently as a result or something? I dunno. 

But yeah, on the one hand, shows about friends hanging out were becoming a dime a dozen by that point - I totally get people wanting to capitalize on the popularity of "Friends", but yes, even then there still has to be something to set your show apart from so many other "friends hanging out together" shows. The fact the show changed its name just adds to your point that they were still trying to figure out what kind of show they wanted to be.

I agree it would've been good to let the show have a little more time to deal with what happens after Ellen comes out, mainly because I do think it would've been interesting for a show to explore, "Okay, I've come out...now what?" I think that could've made for some interesting stories, both to, as you said, help straight people get a better understanding of what this journey means for gay people and also to connect with gay viewers who were nervous about coming out or who had come out but were still trying to figure out where to go from there and things of that sort. I think there could've definitely been ways to tell those kinds of stories that could've been funny and interesting and poignant and relatable. 

But yeah, I do think having to fend off all the controversy hindered them in a lot of ways. It is a shame they couldn't explore those topics more in depth, but luckily, we've had plenty of other shows since then picking up where they left off and continuing to tell those kinds of stories.

[SoMuchTV]

Oh hey, there is a thread for this. It didn’t show up when I searched, but when I navigated to the CNN forum, here it is. 

I have a bone to pick with whoever is in charge of the closed captions. In a show whose very subject is named Ellen, the CCs consistently rendered her name as Elon. (And her last name seemed to be “generous”.) Obviously some kind of phonetic auto translate. 

I don’t watch that much CNN - is that standard for them?  It seems like a major news network should be able to do better. 

[Sarah 103]

What I find wild and shocking was despite how much had changed in the rest of society when it came to LGBT issues, how little had changed in Hollywood/the entertainment industry for performers (the people on camera as opposed to the people behind the scenes) in the 1990s. 

By the 1990s, you had people in a number of industries/professions who could be out and openly gay at work, especially/mostly in big major cities. 

What Ellen described reminded me a bit of Rock Hudson (I know it wasn't quite as bad in the 1990s as it was in the 1950s, but didn't seem too much better). Close friends knew, people in the industry might know, but there was huge gap between what people in the industry knew and what the general public knew. There was also the knowledge or fear that if the general public knew a performer's true sexuality (if they there something other than straight), their career would be over. 

Also, at one point, I started thinking about Matthew Shepherd and I was about to pause and look it up on Wikipedia and that the very next segment of the episode.

[Bastet]

I finally started in on this, and watched the Dan Quayle v. Murphy Brown episode.  That's one of my favorite TV shows ever, and my very favorite labor/delivery scene, plus I was already a political junkie at the time, and lived then as I do now in L.A., so I remember all this very well.

I will always and forever love Dr. Todd Boyd, so was glad to see him in this, from "I guess someone was trying to find a way to make Dan Quayle useful so sent him out to give that speech" to reminding us Murphy was a comment thrown in at the end of the speech; the real story is that he gave a racist statement about the cause of the '92 rebellion in L.A. and that gets ignored.

What this documentary did best, I think, was place Quayle's infamous speech in context.  My word, the speechwriter who still doesn't get it, so I applaud this blowing up her stupid argument about single parent homes in poverty being "fixed" by Republican policy, and the lie that the breakdown of the Black nuclear family, not the unjust acquittal of the cops who beat Rodney King on the heels of the suspended sentence of Latasha Harlins's killer as the latest in a series of injustices, was the catalyst for the rebellion.

Furthering the context, showing a "Whose family, whose traditions, whose values?" response to the Republican party's platform of culture wars (started by Reagan and amped up something fierce by Bush) was equally well done.

This was a good big picture examination of a notable moment that reflected several issues, and I look forward to catching up with the rest.

[Bastet]

I watched the Oprah episode, and again appreciate using one high-profile example to illuminate a societal issue -- in this case, the bullshit that is diet culture and how fat people have been used as comic relief in media, portrayed as lazy, slovenly, dumb, etc. having such an impact that even one of the few most powerful people wasn't immune.

I watched little daytime talk, so I was aware Donahue had changed the conversation and then Oprah ran with that, but didn't follow the details.  Even I, though, remember (though I didn't watch it in real time) the wagon of fat.  I'm glad she regrets that episode; diet culture sucks, period, but extolling a liquid diet?! 

Oprah as only her weight, regardless, was well illustrated in this.  As was "Your job as a woman is to remain thin" taking hold very young and resulting in a billion-dollar industry.  And, oh lord, "If you're a fat woman, you're a public commodity."

I appreciated the juxtaposition of articles about Oprah and John Goodman in the very same issue of a magazine.

Oprah's heavier body putting people at ease, showing in the ratings, also very much being affected by white audiences seeing her as the mammy figure, not just relatability - it was very good to note the misogynoir.

Ouch, with Steadman describing her fat self as "a diamond in the rough" with "potential".  And an even bigger ouch to talk shows equating episodes about being happy overweight with things like "Guy marries balloon" as bizarre oddities.

[Annber03]

Ahhhhhhh, now here is a time period I have very clear memories of. I do not remember seeing the actual moment with Kanye on that telethon when it aired, but I certainly remember the clip being played and referenced constantly in the media in the days/weeks/months following it. Like some of the people being interviewed for this episode, I did not know about all the other stuff Kanye had said prior to his 'George Bush doesn't care about black people" comment, so it was interesting to get the full context of his quote in that moment. 

And indeed, in that moment, nobody who was actually paying attention could disagree with his general sentiment. And with those comments, I mean, yeah, he was calling out Bush specifically, but it was also a broader sentiment about the Bush administration/U.S. government as a whole at the time. 

But yeah, you look at those scenes of people standing on their roofs and in the streets begging for help, and Bush is just flying over in his plane...I mean...what the helll else are they suppsoed to think in that moment? The BS from that Bush administration official about why Bush couldn't go down there in person, oh, please. Every single president, as far back as I can remember, has done ground visits of natural disasters. They've all somehow managed to work out the logistics with the Secret Service and getting in and out of the area and whatnot to walk the areas and talk to the residents. Surely they could've worked out something with Bush here. They sure didn't seem to worry about those issues when he was standing amidst the rubble in New York after 9/11, after all, he wasn't taking a plane tour of that destruction. And that wasn't a natural disaster, that was a terrorist attack. Bush can get grumpy all he wants about those words towards him, as can the usual suspects (hi, O'Reilly), but his actions post-Katrina certainly did nothing to help people think otherwise. 

I appreciated the comment from the one guy who talked about how it was hard to stand there and claim that we could help people rebuild in Afghanistan when we couldn't even take care of our own people here. And then on top of that, you think about the fact that we were spending all this money in Iraq at that time, a war we went into under false pretenses, and you just wonder how much quicker the recovery efforts in Louisiana would've gone if we'd taken all the money we blew on Iraq and put it towards helping people here. 

The fact this wa all taking place just shy of the four year anniversary of 9/11 adds salt in the wound, because you look at the two responses and yeah, they are so stark it's remarkable. 

And then the recollection of the "Heckua job, Brownie" thing, and Bush's "Now watch this drive" moment, and the shots of the Houston Superdome...all coming back as if this happened yesterday. It's moments like this that leave me feeling very confused when people start looking at this administration with rose colored glasses, 'cause, uh, yeah, there's a lot about this time period that doesn't bring back good memories for people, who lived through it, either. Those clips of Bush talking about freedom and being with us or the terrorists...so much more I could say about that, but that would be wading into some real political rants here. 

The timing on this episode is certainly appropriate, too, considering the cureent disasters left by Helene and Milton and the conspiracy theory bullshit and awful commentary being spewed in certain corners of the internet in regards to those storms. And of course, also timely in terms of the downward spiral of Kanye's career in recent years as well, and I really appreciate this show talking more about how much damage Kanye has done to his legacy since then, and how jarring his own political shift has been as well. That "TMZ" clip was WILD. Hoo, boy. 

And of course, just the images of the horrors people witnessed in New Orleans itself were heartbreaking and horrifying to watch as well. The stories of the bodies alone...dear god. And the shots of homes where all you could see was the rooftops and nothing more. It's disturbing on so many levels, and anyone who thinks people's anger in the wake of that wasn't justified...I don't know what more I can say to that other than they need to get a clue. 

I thought I read somewhere that this was the last episode in this little series, which, if that's the case, makes me sad, 'cause this has been a really fascinating series. If this is the end of this run, I hope they have more episodes of this sort planned for the future. I'd like to see what other moments they could touch on. 

[DanaK]

19 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I thought I read somewhere that this was the last episode in this little series, which, if that's the case, makes me sad, 'cause this has been a really fascinating series. If this is the end of this run, I hope they have more episodes of this sort planned for the future. I'd like to see what other moments they could touch on. 

It is the last episode of the season, but there are so many other stories to cover that I hope it gets renewed as this turned out to be way more interesting than I thought it would be

I fully remember Katrina and what a horror show it was and even as a White American, I think I understood the unfairness of it and the institutional issues. I think I watched the telethon and Kanye saying what he said live but I’m not 100% sure

We are still dealing with institutional racism though we made some progress but the right wing struck back and now we’re backsliding. And Kanye helped his career with his comments and then torched his career with a lot of nonsense

Edited October 14 by DanaK

[Annber03]

42 minutes ago, DanaK said:

We are still dealing with institutional racism though we made some progress but the right wing struck back and now we’re backsliding.

Seriously, the more things change, the more they stay the same. I remember all the stuff about how black people were called "looters" back then, and then the whole "refugee" thing...like, wow, just not even hiding how much they didn't see black people as human beings worthy of sympathy and support. 

I remember watching everything with Katrina's landfall and aftermath unfolding on the Weather Channel. It was insane to watch it all happen in real time like it did. 

Regarding Anderson Cooper being interviewed for this episode, didn't he also have a moment where he called out the lack of response on air as well? I seem to remember something about him having a visibly frustrated, emotional rant at some point, too. 

[Bastet]

I just watched the Ellen episode and found it another good installment. 

It was timely, as I just re-watched the "puppy episode" a few months ago -- I have a bunch of stuff on tape I'm slowly reviewing to decide whether to transfer to DVD or ditch, and this turned up on one of those tapes.  I remembered several lines after all these years, and cracked up throughout -- it's funny as hell.

I was a fan of Ellen's stand-up, so watched from the start of These Friends of Mine to the end of Ellen.  And, as a straight woman who never had any interest in getting married and always devoted very little of her attention to even finding a friend with benefits, I absolutely loved Ellen Morgan's similar lack of interest (after the first season).  I dealt with a seemingly infinite pool of people thinking my disinterest in partnering with a man in any significant way meant I was a lesbian.  Ellen Morgan v.1, presented as straight, represented me.  I adored her for it.

I remember others feeling represented in that way resenting it when Ellen Morgan followed Ellen DeGeneres in coming out -- like it sent the message those of us who aren't obsessed with finding a boyfriend are only uninterested because we're secretly gay.  But fuck that; those of us who are straight but happily single need more representation, boy howdy, but lesbians forced into the closet need it, too, even more -- let's make room for all of us was my stance then.  And now.

I can't say as someone who lived it, but it seems this gave those who came later a good overview of the '70s and '80s in terms of gay representation on TV versus the '90s (when a good chunk of the audience may have become aware) when things started to change, but only a little.

The parental advisory on an episode of Ellen that would never have garnered the same for an episode about a heterosexual interaction or even, as explicitly proven, about the same sex interaction but without one of the actors known to be gay was damning. 

It seems clear Ellen was abusive (isolating) to Anne Heche, and there are indicators she's done the same with Portia de Rossi.  To what extent can be debated, but she was just as clearly a toxic boss on her talk show.  It's an odd position to look back from, but she was a trailblazer at the time, and kudos to that.

[DanaK]

This will start streaming on Max starting November 12