[MLB Thread]

19 minutes ago, xaxat said:

Or football team.

(I kid!)

Yeah, if the Indians and the Browns win, that's probably a sign of the apocalypse. (Also kidding!)

[MLB Thread]

Well that's the end of that. 

Obviously disappointed in my Jays, they just didn't have anything left in the bats. Pitchers did their jobs, and we have all those guys next year too. We'll be back if they are even half as good as they were this year. 

Congrats to Cleveland, man am I getting tired of saying that. Thank God there's no Cleveland hockey team. 

And that is a perfect segway into the NHL season. Go Leafs. 

[The 'Bigger' Questions of Westworld: Morality and Philosophy in the World of A.I.]

12 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

I wasn't actually speaking of hammers per se, as I'm sure you know.  

Guests of Westworld have every reason to expect that they will be prevented from actually harming another guest.   Westworld staff have repeatedly said that there are protections in place.  If these were not practically fool-proof, they wouldn't be able to operate.  The would not get insurance coverage, and there would probably be statutory prohibitions in place as well.  Sure accidents can happen.  The last one was 30 years ago.  We don't know the nature of this accident, but we can be sure that whatever protections are in place now, far outstrip those that were in effect then.

So, guests know that they will not be able to rape or kill a living human being in the park, regardless of age, gender, or racial makeup.  Nor will they be able to rape or kill a host in the park, because hosts being un-emergent robots, the words 'rape' and 'murder' don't apply to them.

To repeat:  It is not possible to rape or murder a human being in the park, and you will know whether they are human or not, depending upon the outcome of your attempt to harm them.  If you succeed in harming them, they are a host and what you did isn't rape or murder.  If you fail, then perhaps they are human, perhaps not.  But it is a moot point, because your attempt to harm them failed.  Therefore, there can be no moral objection to your attempting to do them harm.

And please, don't tell me about hitting them with rocks, and throwing them over a cliff.  The premise of this show is that guests are protected from harm. We may not know exactly what mechanisms are in place to do this, but it is an axiom of the program.  Not only do we hear it said by characters in the show, but TPTB have said as much to the press as well. 

The accident was referred to as a "critical failure" and it very obviously was referring to a problem with the hosts, not any incident ever.

There have been other deaths according to the Delos website where they allow you to book a trip to Westworld.

Quote

Statistically speaking, you are more likely to die from lightning strike than to die while in a Delos park. However, the following causes of accidental death have occurred within the Delos Destinations compound: buffalo stampede, self- cannibalism, accidental hanging,drowning, 3rd-degree burns, autoerotic asphyxiation, blunt force trauma, allergic reaction to non-native plant life, falling from great heights, common manslaughter, tumbleweeds. You absolve Delos, Inc. of any wrongdoing if you or anyone in your party suffers bodily harm while using The Service, and you agree to not sue or prosecute Delos, Inc. or any of the smaller entities falling under the Delos Corporation.

Note the mention of common manslaughter. Guests can kill other guests. It probably doesn't happen a lot, but it happens enough that it is specifically mentioned in the waiver they make all guests sign.

[MLB Thread]

What do we say to the god of death Blue Jays? Not today.

One down. Three to go.

[The 'Bigger' Questions of Westworld: Morality and Philosophy in the World of A.I.]

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

You are misstating the case.  You should be discussing the situation wherein you hit "someone" that may be a robot or may be a human, with a "hammer" which you know can tell the difference and prevent the blow falling on a human.  So there can be no objection -- moral or otherwise -- to striking the blow.

That's not how Westworld weapons work.

The only weapons that don't work against humans are the firearms. Blades and blunt weapons and fists work on everybody, host and guest alike.

There is a "Good Samaritan" reflex in which any host present will try and take a fatal blow a guest would receive. But that isn't a 100% sure thing. If you are right next to a human and stab him/her in the gut the hosts will not have the time to react and take the blow. Or if there are no hosts nearby to take the blow and it's a fight between two guests one could very well die.

[The 'Bigger' Questions of Westworld: Morality and Philosophy in the World of A.I.]

37 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Sorry -- don't agree.  They aren't told what to feel.  They are told what behaviour to exhibit in order to fake the appropriate feeling. 

exhibit_surprise() {
	raise_eyebrows( slightly );
	mouth( open );
	breath( inhale, brief );
}

The show itself told us differently in the most recent episode.

Ford: Why is this host covered? Perhaps you didn't want him to feel cold, or ashamed? You wanted to cover his modesty, is that it? It doesn't get cold, it doesn't feel ashamed. It doesn't feel a solitary thing that we haven't told it to. Understand?

If the hosts didn't feel anything he would've said "It doesn't feel anything." but it does. It feels what it's been told to feel.

[The 'Bigger' Questions of Westworld: Morality and Philosophy in the World of A.I.]

14 hours ago, Netfoot said:

If so, then all bets are off!  Without question, if they emerge as something other than simple, mindless bots, our treatment of them treatment must change. Because in that case, they cease to be unfeeling machines, and become something else.    But as far as anybody knows, they don't have feelings/free will.  And so, they are being treated accordingly.

They don't have free will, that's agreed.

I disagree that they don't have feelings though. They very much do, they are simply TOLD what to feel. Dolores is told that she loves her father, loves her mother, loves Teddy. And she acts accordingly, she worries about them, rushes to save them, mourns them.

Are these feelings any less real because they are implanted?

[MLB Thread]

12 hours ago, King of Birds said:

Well, I worked late again- was following on radio a bit driving home but - did Pete Rose and ARod talk about this in tonight's pre-game? Sorry if it's been mentioned a whole bunch tonight. But ya know, you mentioned the magic "coming back from 0h-3" and that's like a beacon in the night. Condolences, 12 years later.

eta: baseball players need to be taught to just sprawl out all over a base until they can ask for 'time.'  Getting sick of these "kept the tag on him while he was standing up" out calls.  Booo!

They need to change the rule entirely. I'd suggest something like the following.

After touching the base the runner is understood to have "possession" of the base if any part of his body remains directly above the base even without physical contact. The runner shall maintain "possession" of the base until such a time as he vacates the space above the base. To reacquire "possession" of the base the runner will then need to physically touch the base again.

This way we won't have annoying outs because someone pops up or takes his freaking fingertips off the bag after beating the tag out. But if someone overslides the base he can still be tagged out, and it allows for pick off plays to remain unchanged.

[MLB Thread]

12 minutes ago, Moose135 said:

Interestingly, I'm watching the ALCS right now, and in the corner of the screen, TBS has the box with the score, count, outs, etc.  For the scores, they have a large red C for Cleveland, and the Blue Jay logo for Toronto.

The block C is Cleveland's primary logo. They changed it from Chief Wahoo in 2014, who remains as a secondary logo.

I think it's supposed to be a compromise. The people who are offended by Chief Wahoo get to not see it all the time and can still be Cleveland fans and buy Cleveland merch without having to endorse Wahoo directly. The people who like Chief Wahoo still get to have him on some of the caps and shoulder patches and whatnot.

[MLB Thread]

23 minutes ago, roamyn said:

Does he ban the "Senators", "Eskimos",  "Sheiks" or "Millionaires"?

Indian is a respectful NAME it's not like the Redskins, which IS disrespectful.  It's like comparing "Caucasian" to "White Skin".  

The former is an acknowledged group of people, the latter puts a racist undertone on it.

I think he does ban Eskimos, a lot of Canadians object to Edmonton's use of that name, because the Inuit object to being used as mascots.

Who are the Sheiks? Are you referring to the Saskatoon Sheiks? They haven't played since 1928, I don't think they get mentioned a ton on the air. Also I'm sure most people understand that people in the 1920's were not as enlightened as they are today.

I don't think anyone is offended by the term Senators or Millionaires, however it should be mentioned that the Millionaires are also a defunct team and don't get mentioned a ton unless the Canucks are using their maroon alternates.

It's fine that you know people who aren't offended by the term "Indian" but some First Nations/Native Americans are offended, people protest outside Cleveland games.

[MLB Thread]

13 minutes ago, rippleintime17 said:

The Blue Jays aren't gaining much goodwill from me this postseason, that's for sure. And that's coming from someone who likes some of their players and thought I'd be more interested in a tight series with both teams playing good baseball. Now I just want the Tribe to win. 

Blue Jays fans definitely have a higher jerk quotient then the other teams and I say that as a Blue Jays fan of 20+ years.  

I don't know if it's because they skew younger, or because the Rogers Centre is terrible (I mean TERRIBLE) at alcohol regulation, but it seems like terrible events happen on the regular. I was there several times during the regular season and every SINGLE time a fight either broke out or very nearly broke out, and no one was ever ejected from the stadium. One time another Blue Jays fan almost fought me and my friend, we were on the same freaking team.

I think Rogers really needs to invest in smart serve training for the bar staff, obviously drunk people should not be given any alcohol much less 2 full beers. And also better and more security, people who are obviously aggressive or intoxicated need to be kicked out. They'd get kicked out of a bar, they should get kicked out of the stadium. 

In closing we aren't all jerks. But there really seem to be a lot of jerks.

[S01.E03: The Stray]

10 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Wyatt's gang uniforms actually reminded me of Ned Kelly's armor.

I know that William had to choose between white and black hats, but they've shown other guests wearing brown hats.  The guy who shot Teddy in the saloon and said it was the best vacation ever, was wearing a brown hat.  So, it can't be that binary.

It looked like Maeve was standing on the porch of Dolores' house in the dusk in one shot.

It might be because William is a newbie.

It might be easier for newbies to make a binary choice and not flirt with shades of grey... er brown.

[MLB Thread]

4 hours ago, roamyn said:

Some a-hole activist is trying to get the Indians from using any part of Chief Wahoo on their unis, caps & NAME!  He actually filed a lawsuit!  And broadcasters are refusing to say the word "Indians"!  But there was no problem in July when we played them.

And yet the Edmonton Eskimos continue to play as branded.

MLB is backing the Indians.

(This is important to us, because Mr. Roamyn is part AI and it never bothered his family.)

Our home broadcaster Jerry Howarth has actually not said the term "Indians" in 25 years.

An aboriginal fan wrote him in 1992 after Toronto defeated Atlanta in the World Series expressing distress at his call of the game. Jerry agreed with the fan and stopped using the names Braves, and Indians, (as well as Redskins, Chiefs and Blackhawks when giving NFL/NHL updates) as well as the terms "Tomahawk Chop" and "Powwow on the mound"

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-broadcaster-jerry-howarth-wont-say-indians-alcs/

[S01.E03: The Stray]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm still unclear as to exactly what is happening, and who is a host and who is a guest, but I am enjoying the scenery and the exposition.  I'm liking the Teddy and Dolores characters.  I like their interactions and it's too bad that Ford told Teddy that they will never have a happy ending.

So the pack of people that took axes to Teddy are presumably human, since he couldn't harm them.  So there would be some human guests who sign up to be part of this Wyatt character's entourage, just so they can murder hosts?  

Regarding the stray host, I'm not understanding why they couldn't have deactivated it from the control room.  Or why Stubbs and Elsie had to spend so much time tracking it.  Couldn't they just look it up on the system and find out exactly where it was?  The way it was trapped in the rockslide and was flailing its arms out, very much reminded me of the walkers on the Walking Dead.  Also, I thought hosts weren't allowed to harm humans.  Or is that guests?  How is it that it was able to hurt Stubbs?  Unless Stubbs is also a host.  Or if it is just guests (and not necessarily employees) that hosts cannot harm.

They aren't allowed to kill. They clarified that in this episode.

William: I thought you said we couldn't get shot.

Logan: Eh, we can't get killed.

Obviously they can hurt humans (guests and employees) because we've seen them punch and kick and shoot humans (which does hurt, it just isn't fatal.)

But they have a core tenet preventing them from killing. I'm guessing that might be what happened to him when he smashed his own face in. He was trying to kill Elsie with that rock but his programming wouldn't allow him to take a potentially fatal action against her, so he instead took it against himself.

[Westworld Website Easter Eggs]

59 minutes ago, arc said:

Exploring the website apparently turns up that $40K a day is the base price; there are higher tiers and also a lot of extra fees tacked on. So a one week stay at silver ($75K/day), nominally $525K, costs $687K all told.  No sales tax though.

Hmm. Maybe Delos has it's own sovereignty?

Wouldn't have to pay taxes if it's some kind of country owned by one company.

Also this would get around any messy legal implication from deaths inside the park, because they effectively happened on foreign soil.

[S01.E03: The Stray]

26 minutes ago, henripootel said:

Fair.  But I honestly think WW would be doing piddling business next to Porn World and Roman Orgy World.  I know there was a RomeWorld in the original WW - that I can see people paying 100k for.  The idea that people would want to do something as comparatively cerebral as experiencing the Old West is kinda quaint actually, much like the folks in the our past trying to imagine what it'd be like now.  Freed from domestic tasks, we were supposed to spend time becoming perfect physical specimens (reality: obesity is a huge problem), and with a world of information available to everyone, we'd all spend time fine-tuning our minds (reality: netflix and free porn).  Yeah, Porn World would outsell WW 1000:1, and there'd be several of them.

I don't think so.

Pornworld seems like it would sell a lot, but would you really want to pay 100k per week just to have sex as many times as you want with willing participants? I mean even if the spirit is willing the flesh is weak, how many times would you really be doing it per day? Would you really be getting your money's worth?

Westworld is attractive because the sex is available, and the violence is available but there's lot of other stuff too. When you go on vacation with your significant other you don't just spend the whole time banging. Otherwise nobody would go to Cuba, or Hawaii for their honeymoon, they'd just rent a hotel room downtown, or they'd just go home and bang.

I mean porn is available all the time on the internet. But nobody (at least not anyone who is socially acceptable) watches it all the time.

Now if they sold Pornworld in one hour increments for a couple grand per hour? Then sure, that would sell.

[S01.E03: The Stray]

18 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Two thoughts. One, it's the future, so what is $40k worth? Maybe a lot less than we think by our standards.

The other thought is that it would make sense for WW to have more than one fantasy setting. Maybe we learn about the others as this goes on? Space? camelot? Dinosaurs? Maybe the HBO show will change settings each season, and we will see the park come apart from the POV of different settings/characters?

Otherwise, I'm with you. The Old West is pretty boring, for me. YMMV.

The other thing you need to realize is you can't just pay 40k and stay a day.

The website says the minimum stay is 7 days and the 40k per day only covers basic park entrance, there's a bunch of other mandatory hidden fees. The shortest and cheapest stay in Westworld actually costs you over 440k dollars.

So even if the dollar has inflated to four times today's value, and 40k of their money is only 10k to us, it's still a 110k dollar vacation, per person (not including transport to wherever the park is.) It's not so crazy that only the super rich could afford it, but you'd need to be pretty well off, and probably save a lot to be able to go.

[S01.E03: The Stray]

5 minutes ago, fastiller said:

Dolores's narrative is available here (it does seem as if the dropped can is the point of divergence):

Also interesting is the fact that she only has a forced reset if she gets "menaced" or the ranch is attacked. 

Does that mean she'll remember you if you are nice to her and have a lovely evening with her and her pa?

[S01.E03: The Stray]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I believe that Delores' story line is set to run that she goes into town, buys supplies, goes painting, goes home and finds her home attacked and she is attacked.  She may be raped, or she may escape her rapist and is shot.  It seemed like the host that tried to rape her wasn't originally part of that story line, as he was with the guy that had shot up a bunch of other hosts and taken out.  So usually, it appears that she's shot and killed.  

The story can alter based on if she meets with someone in town.  If its Teddy (if he hasn't been pulled off story), the hang out together, go to her house, and Teddy kills the outlaws, possibly also dying.  Its unclear what happens to Delores if there's not another guest along.

If she doesn't meet Teddy, but meets another guest, perhaps they hang out together, she takes him home, and the guest kills the outlaws, surviving.  Again, we don't know exactly what happens to Delores after that, it likely depends on the guest.

Delores' story does seem to run on just a day loop. If she isn't otherwise comandeered by a guest, she'll do the same thing every day.  Go to town, get supplies, go paint, go home.  Teddy's does do, he arrives, meets Delores in town, hang out, go to her home to die.  It looked like Teddy had been taken by a guest from the day before to do bounty hunting stuff, since instead of being on the train that morning, he was with a female guest hunting bandits.

The can she drops seems like the branching point. Every single day she drops the can, that has to be a trigger.

If Teddy picks the can up for Dolores, they go to the countryside to flirt and hang out, then he returns her home. If there's an attack there Teddy kills the host outlaws, if a guest is part of the attack he may kill Teddy and have his way with Dolores. There's also the possibility that Teddy saves Dolores if the guest is not keen to attack him.

If Dolores picks up the can herself, she goes to the countryside alone to paint, then returns home. If there's an attack there she is either raped or killed. I'm unsure if the other hosts would rape her if there was no guest along for the narrative, but it seems from tonight they would.

If a guest picks up the can for Dolores, it depends on the guest. If he's a black hat Teddy steps in to rescue her (and possibly dies right there in the street). If he's a white hat with a taste for romance he probably takes Teddy's place in the storyline (countryside flirt, back home to the ranch etc.) If he's a white hat with no taste for romance she goes on her solo painting excursion.

[Westworld Website Easter Eggs]

1 hour ago, CognitiveDiss said:

and what does "Delos" refer to?

Maybe the island in Greek mythology?

The goddess Hera, as punishment for Zeus impregnating the titan Leto, forbade Leto to give birth on the mainland or any island. Delos disobeyed Hera and allowed Leto to give birth to the god Apollo, and the goddess Artemis.

Not sure about the significance. Did they think they were creating a race of gods by creating the hosts? Or perhaps there was some controversy surrounded in their creation and they had to create "Delos" in order to give birth to their vision?

[S01.E03: The Stray]

2 hours ago, djsunyc said:

so umm yeah, why didn't delores die?

She wasn't actually shot. When she rides off there's no blood on her clothes.

She somehow knew what was going to happen; either she had lived the scenario before, or something else allowed her to predict what was about to happen, so she fled.

[Questions and Speculations]

21 minutes ago, paigow said:

Is this one of those brute force process of elimination quests??? MiB has scalped everyone else over 30 years so "Kessy" had to be carrying the map?

There's probably some kind of weird logic at play that you would only understand from playing the game extensively, or by actually creating the puzzle. 

I mean if you look at some of the video game quests that actually exist they make no sense at all. I remember a puzzle from Escape From Monkey Island where you have to acquire prosthetic skin, then stretch it over an empty manhole to create a trampoline and then use said trampoline to vault yourself to the second story of a bank in order to rob it. Oh and the only way to acquire the prosthetic skin is to answer a quiz where the solution is found on the bottom of the manhole cover. The manhole cover that you have no reason to remove at this point cause you don't even have the god damn trampoline skin.

Video games are just weird.

[Questions and Speculations]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

Why is the maze printed under the scalp? How would the host "read" it? Why is the map not a file?

I think it's clearly meant to be found by someone. It's just not meant for the MIB.

[Beyond Westworld: What Would Your Fantasy Amusement Park Be?]

Probably Star Wars or a similar space themed park. There's so much possibility in a world like that, it's also draws from a lot of the same motifs as the Wild West though, mixed a bit with the whole "Glory of War" type shtick, of course war isn't all that glorious, but it's a fantasy right?

White Hats

- Play a Jedi Knight, travel the stars and guard peace and justice.

- Play an ace X-wing pilot for the Rebellion/Resistance.

- Play a Rogue Agent, infiltrate Imperial Strongholds and gain intelligence.

- Search the stars yourself for Luke Skywalker and the first Jedi temple (this could be a high level, "find the maze" type quest)

Black Hats

- Play an Inquisitor. Sniff out Jedi survivors in the aftermath of Order 66 and mercilessly slaughter them for the Empire.

- Play an Imperial soldier/pilot. Crush resistance and rebellion from the seat of your AT-AT, or Tie Interceptor.

- Play a gangster, build your criminal empire and become feared in the Outer Rim.

Grey Hats

- Play a roguish smuggler. Travel the stars in your own ship, avoiding imperial blockades in search of the highest dollar.

- Play a bounty hunter. Track and search for the most dangerous prey. Bring them in, dead or alive.

[S01.E02: Chestnut]

4 hours ago, Gobi said:

Upon rewatching this episode (which I recommend doing), I was struck by something that did not fully hit me the first time: Did we see TMIB kill a real person?

At the cantina before the second gun fight, a lot of attention is paid to him reloading his gun, with what may be a different type of bullet. He then kills Lawrence's cousins. One  of the last hosts killed runs into the scene in the background, shooting wildly. He hides behind an adobe wall, and is visibly frightened. He doesn't look like the other hosts, he's much more clean cut. Of course, this could just be his programming/costuming. TMIB then shoots him  through the wall, with the bullet going through him, as well. Now, maybe this is a hollow wall for set design, but even with safety devices any bullet that can go through even a plaster wall is going to at least sting, and could easily take out an eye. There must be instances where humans shoot at each other, accidentally or not. Was that another guest that TMIB killed? Looked that way to me.

Before this gunfight, we see a quick scene where one of the park runners asks if they should slow down TMIB. This implies that there is a procedure to keep guests from going on a non-stop killing spree.

TMIB then reloads again, this time putting in a large shell, like a shotgun shell, that I suspect is the safety device. He says he isn't going back home anymore. Presumably, the park has a procedure for removing guests who try to stay beyond what they paid for. Has TMIB been smuggling in real bullets to keep them from removing  him?

I don't think so.

The host who died may have looked different, but that's the point. We all (or at least a good deal of us) thought Teddy was a guest too, until he suddenly wasn't. You aren't supposed to be able to tell the difference, until they die.

I don't pretend to know the mechanics of the special guns/bullets used in Westworld, but it doesn't seem like they even hurt the guests. It doesn't sting or anything, it just doesn't hit the guest. When Teddy fires on the MIB he doesn't flinch, his CLOTHES don't even move. It actually looks like the bullet almost vaporizes on contact (or even just before.) I think it's as simple as guns CANNOT hurt the guests.

Now that doesn't mean a guest can't die. I can't see a way for them to stop a knife to the gut, or a rock to the back of the head, or a broken bottle to the jugular. At least not without someone intervening, like the reported "Good Samaritan" reflex the hosts have. But I don't think the guns can hurt them. Now maybe the MIB is smuggling in guns/bullets, but I don't see how he could. The only way in/out of the park seems to be the train (and maybe the maze, but he hasn't found that yet.) and I'm positive they are very adamant you don't bring anything into the park.

Anyway, when a guest dies it's going to be a big deal IMO. Not something you look back on from a past episode. It's going to be a "holy shit" moment when it's very evident everything is going pear-shaped.