SaraLanceArrow

I am reading the last pages here and here are my thoughts on the topics: - Laurel and Oliver's fist meeting in the pilot - I understand Laurel should have been angry, and KC played it very. But why was Laurel's introduction scene this one, the one that doomed her by many fans as unlikable, even though she was in her rights? Because her story was told through Oliver's eyes, we see her when he sees her, and that was always her biggest problem. Felicity's biggest problem was this too. When Laurel and Felicity fans argue and hate the other, they fail to see that both characters were equally good but also equally butchered for the expense of the main male character, who was the only one being fleshed out and given point of view. - And that is also another explanation why he barely talks to other female characters later on - because when he interacts with someone it is always about his story and never about theirs. - In the crossovers he interacted more with Barry and Kara - two characters he has nothing in common, than Sara - his old time friend, because Kara and Barry were the other leads and part of the trinity and they needed to interact with some forced plot - see we are the big trio, while the way more organic scene where Oliver and Sara talk about Laurel's death, Damien Darhk, Quentin being drunk, the new Black Canary, Sara becoming a leader, what's happening in Star city and so on - never happened, because these conversations would be more contributing to Sara rather than Oliver. - When people say Felicity is the Mary Sue, they also fail to see that she only is like that because the writers care less to actually give her substantial story which is only reserved for Oliver. I believe that a main character is only as good as the supporting characters are around them, but on Arrow the supporting characters are plot tools rather than real characters and if Oliver was a female character, he would have been called Mary Sue, not Felicity, whose fault is only that they do not write for her as a real person. - So why was Black Canary mistreated. Well for me Black Canary was not mistreated, because Laurel was never Black Canary for me, but the irony is that fans also fail to see that they were the biggest part why Laurel ended the way she did. If people go back in time, they will see no one cared about Black Canary at the beginning. Sara Lance was called Black Canary by many, and had most of her comics characteristics, and still the majority of fans cared mainly about Oliver. Till her death no one also liked Laurel at all. She was constantly scrutinized by fans, even though some male characters were more badly written and had similar flaws, people tent to see hers. Of course KC had fans, and Sara Lance had some fans, but these people can hardly be called comics fans. The likability of Laurel just paralleled the downfall of Felicity. People needed to oppose their hate for Felicity with showing love to the character that they believed is her counterpart, while not seeing that they both were very similar characters. - Black Canary in the comics is completely different character than Laurel, and when people celebrate her continuing to live on while Felicity is dead with Arrow, the same can be said about Laurel - she is also dead with Arrow, and her version will never be seen in the comics either.

I think the biggest problem of these showrunners and writers is that they failed to understand is that so many people watched for the characters and not for the special effects. They still had so many heroes who didn't rely on CGI, like White Canary for example. What they needed were compelling hero stories, and didn't really needed to turn the show into a cartoonish wacky comedy to cover up for their lack of characterization. Caity and Juliana panel was so fun, they are so good together, too bad we never had them on screen with their characters becoming a fighting duo or have at least one meaningful conversation about Canary mantle. Sad also to hear that they know about the 'not my canary' mean comments some fake Black Canary fans were throwing. And hearing Sara Lance died for real from Caity is another sad reality check for me

I think you fail to see that the - 'we all thought there will be season 8' - is just an act they all adopted, because they can't admit they knew the chance for s8 was small, but still did the cliff hanger. Besides no one loses if they have free posters in LA and New York, or trending Legends. I am also sure the actor for Booster Gold was not really signed a deal. And closing studios do no happen from suddenly. Phil Klemmer also said that he wasn't sure Caity would love the pregnancy plot line, so we can also see that she agreed to it, because they knew she would never see the light of day. Caity also had said on ' inside of you' podcast, that she was tired of playing Sara Lance, and that it was difficult on Legends as she had a lot of screen time but mostly as supporting character to other character's stories. Also realistically pregnancy story line would have benched her even more, or put her on the background even more. EBR left the show after Felicity became a mother. And I am sure all the avalance fans have tones of ideas of domestic plot lines of how avalance take care of the baby, but this is not what the show is about, and this still would have meant that they will be there for two minites screen time just to satisfy the portion of fandom who cares solely for two women changing diapers. Which again, I am sure Caity Lotz would not sign up for. And yes I do understand why people love Avalance - they are two gorgeous women who kiss and hold hands. For some people this is enough. And the fact they are not bothered by the plot lines I mentioned speaks a lot, speaks they do not really care for representation, or empowerment. They care for the shippers feelings they have when they watch them. They also do not care for the characters. And intimacy is important, and I also love it. But I do watch for more. I want more from female characters in a superhero show. If this was family drama, then yes, let them change diapers. But this is a superhero show and I am here for that content. So I want Sara to have the content they gave Constantine for example - I want her to be more than just love interest. How was it possible for Constantine to be able to have the love plot line, the drug plot line, the hell plot line, the personal villains, the characters from his show, saving Astra, seeing his parents and ancestors, keeping his darkness and autonomy. But Sara was not possible to talk about her father, her past, explore whether she was in hell when she was dead, save the girl whose father she killed, have personal villain, kill darhk in the end, show emotions over her blindness and so on. And now to answer your Arrow comment - come on - you barely care whether they killed and cloned Sara, because you see the writers didn't addressed it, and the characters didn't care, but you 'care' how Arrow used Sara for Laurel's Black Canary arc? This is just funny. I mean all Avalance fans that hate on Sara's plot on Arrow are such hypocrites. Tell me how exactly Sara was not a tool for Ava all these last seasons? Didn't she became from someone who sacrifices her sister for the timeline to someone with a motto - I screw the timeline for the better - just to give Ava the personality of a time cop? Didn't she became blind just so Ava can become co -captain? Didn't she not talked about her dead father, just so she can be happy with Ava. All this characterization and plot lines were given to her so they can build up Ava. SO how is that different to what Arrow did. Sara even was killed and cloned in the end so she can be a clone like Ava. The difference with Arrow is that the show at least gave her one season where she had actual development and plot lines. On Arrow she had more development and more characterization than 7 seasons of Legends. Remove Arrow from her story and you do not have Sara Lance, but a stereotype of a bad ass blond assassin who kicks ass and kisses girls. What made Sara unique is her story from Arrow, and a little bit from Legends the first two seasons. So I suppose Legends could have easily just cast another blond actress for their show and made her bad ass assassin and it would have been the same.

Caity Lotz sold her apartment months before the cancellation was announced and the last episode was aired. They all knew there won't be any more seasons. All of them supported the campaign because they are nice people who support their fans, and also it is free promotion of the show which is still on streaming, or was at the time. Keto leaving the show and yet deciding to write an episode where they put Legends in jail is a dck move. It is like - I do not care what happens I am moving on any way. And then she claims she cares for Sara as a character even from Arrow is a lie, as she never showed she actually knows Sara's personality at all. Plot lines like: - wanting to go on a boat - not knowing how to read a road map - ending pregnant in jail - erasing her scars, and not even showing them in a single scenes during the whole show - cutting the scenes where she talks about her father - not giving her any proper arc after being killed and cloned, or proper arc for her blindness, or proper arc for forgiving herslef - making her into a puppet for Darhk's enjoyment - using her regeneration powers for an excuse to kill her more - making suddenly someone who choses Robo Nate to kill her rather than actually fight him - playing parody characters more than being Sara Lance and many more - just proves Keto( or Phil) does not care for Sara as a character. So people saying Flash would ruin her are ridiculous, when Legends ruined her more. And it is not even about Ava or Avalance. It is about Sara, and how she is treated and how she is written in her own screen time and development. Wanting more background and quality stories for Sara has nothing to do with Avalance. They could co-exist. There are many fans of Avalance simply because they are lgbtq couple, and I completely understand that. They come to the show solely for the couple, but then the writers are the ones who decide the stories and they could have given both Sara and Ava quality stories instead of these heterosexual stereotypes of how lesbians are always horny, hating bisexuals, wanting domestic life, alien babies , and surprise saliva impregnation. Oh and lets not forget both becoming clones and have one father creator - the man who killed Sara. And yes Caity said Sara died for real. Whether she liked that plot line or not is something we can only speculate as no one asked her in any interview about it. There was no article about this plot line and even the writers never explained it. And yes Caity loves Avalance, because she is a huge LGBTQ supporter and she loves the representation, but she also had said that she wanted more deeper content for Sara, and this does not make it less representation, because writing quality storylines for lgbtq character is better representation than kissing and holding hands. She always speak more fondly for Arrow than anything she was given as acting on Legends, which for her is just fun but when she talks about stretching her acting she talks about Arrow.

The campaign is just a free promotion of a show that already have 7 seasons, and a way of people who have money to spend. It was never going to work as the all connected to the show knew the chances for renewal are small and deals are ending. Keto, who wrote the finale was not even going to be with the show after s7. The writers knew what they were doing with this finale and they were ok with it. As for Flash, no one ever said Flash should finish Legends, seeing Legends getting out of prison is not even a story. People want to see a crossover between the two time travelling masters Barry and Captain Lance and her team, something that was way over due. And if they had announced it you would have seen how many actually wanted this.

I do not agree with this. People on twitter who don't want Legends on Flash, or some of the Legends i.e. Sara Lance, are just a portion of fans who care for a portion of the show. (avalance, the baby, but this portion is even questionable if it was going to be on s8, as I am sure the writers would have sidelined avalance and the baby story any way, or not make it the way they imagined.) My point is - majority of Legends fans know there is no hope for renewal and would have loved to see some Legends on Flash, and Sara and Barry team up.

How did Sara grew when they changed her essence? You can not make a character develop if you just completely change who this character is. I think Caity had said it better: they did changed the character but played it as if she grew. My biggest question is why couldn't Sara continue to be more layered in her emotions and have more dark moments when losing her father, or getting blind, or being killed and cloned, but Constantine was allowed tones of dark plot lines?

I actually like s1, but I love s2 even more. For me what works for some does not work for others. The reality is that many people stopped watching after the Beeboo finale in s3, because they were there for the superhero stories of the characters they liked, not for zanny campy silliness and watching whether the actors have limits. Yes maybe some critics praise the show now, but it is not critics who watch the show. And lets be honest, the biggest buzz online for this show is from shippers, and shippers are predictable, give them a couple and they go crazy. The show has so many characters, that it explored much more than Ava for example, but these characters are always on the background for the online crowd. Remove the online shippers and the critics and you have a show that lost half of it's viewers from s2. The problem here is that they didn't know how to write a superhero assembly how, that has no love triangles, and just pure action for more than one season. All they had to do is write about the great characters they had in the beginning: hey had Atom, Canary, HeatWave, Firestorm and they barely wrote stories for these characters. And the idea that they do not want to be a comics show is a lie, because the moment they got Constantine they turned the show into a Constantine show and had no problem to explore his comics stories

great interview, Caity is really multi talented person. I really hope to see her in some big blockbuster movie, or some grounded drama. I do feel Legends wasted her potential and talent. I remember how everyone was so excited when they brought her back from the dead and put her in the spin off, only to lose interest and enthusiasm later through the years, when they just regressed her character and never gave her acting material to shine. On a fun note, I just find it amusing how when asked about her top five actors to work with, she names only one - Nick Zano, regardless of the fact that for the last 4 seasons she mainly worked with Jess Mc. I guess all the talk about how she loves avalance, and says it is good representation, and how the show became better, and she would want another season, is her being just echoing some 'fans', and not really her own opinion.

I re watched this episode and I am certain, the writers were pretty clear they killed Sara and replaced her with a clone. The most obvious is the fact that Bishop says: the real Sara Lance is dead. The other one is that Sara wanted to print herself another body, meaning she was no longer a being with a soul, but a clone that can be replicated over and over like Bishop. Also the early version of Bishop was definitely a different personality, and was obvious the later clone versions were sociopaths i.e lacked a soul. Then we have the whole canon about dying and getting back to life and how the soul plays a part in this. And then we also have Ava's story. She is the 13'th Ava clone that Rip used and she had fake memories to be a real person. This just sounds so much like Sara's story now: she can be reprinted, and what makes her who she is are the memories that are transferred from her old dead body. Also they never really make it canon that we have the same Sara in a different body, because they do not explore this story at all. It is just a copy of Sara, that everybody accepts, and nothing suggests it is otherwise. Yes she looks the same, talks the same, feels the same but that is because she is a copy. Still the original is dead. And of course this whole argument about real and copy Sara would have never existed if they had never introduced the concept of the soul, but they did and now we can't just ignore it.

I don't know about you guys but the concept of season 8 sounds awful. I do not believe that this is what people want to see as a final season. I saw many people want Legends to be superheroes, they want Sara Lance to have heroic ending( minus the avalance fans who just want a baby scene). To be honest I am even more glad I won't see this plot line on screen. These writers do not care for the characters at all, they care for the formulaic parody. I am amazed how some people find good character development in characters that barely resemble themselves anymore. And I watched Caity and Jess panel, it seems the actresses also can't say much about their characters either, especially Jess, Caity still has Arrow and she has a lot to say about Sara on Arrow and her favorite episodes and scenes from there. I also loved how when she talked about Sara on Legends she acknowledged it is a different character, written for a different show. But they when she talked how much Sara's mental state was changed from being dark and self hating, she didn't gave the credit to Avalance, but to Sara being a leader of the Legends, and becoming a hero, which is definitely her s2 development.

I am not surprised they cancelled it. I think the writers knew there is a very low chance. That is why they gave us this outrageous stories as a fan service in the last episode and showed us the potential futures of the characters. The avalance ending was absolute worse fanfiction and fan service, and Booster Gold was fan service for the people who cried about him and comics characters for years, although the writers had no intention to write him as a comics book character. And ending Legends in jail is also absolutely in tune of how they treated the character last 4 seasons, they turned them from outcasts who want to do good and better and be heroes, into outcasts who give themselves excuses to screw things up and create even more problems for the selfish reasons of there is nothing else for us out there, and why not help the next goof save their loved ones in the expense of the timeline. So ending them in jail is quite poetic

As a Sara fan I am actually absolutely happy they cancelled the show. I know this sounds ridiculous, but for me it was a torture to watch a character that has nothing to do with Sara Lance, but being called and referred to as Sara Lance. Even Caity Lotz had said that she is playing different character on Legends than the one on Arrow. Anyway for me her story ended when she became Paragon of Destiny. In my head cannon, her ending was how she remained protector of time for eternity, as a hero bigger than anyone. She was never killed, cloned, impregnated through saliva, she has a team that will put being a legend first and do everything to protect their captain, and a life partner that is fierce independent leader of her own. not a clone creation of an abominable douche, with one characteristic that defines her personality, and achievement of being co- to her wife.

I also stopped watching after season 6. I should have stopped earlier. And I am sure many fans stopped watching, not only because of Sara's degradation, but the whole show and all characters became frustrating. I am amazed how the critics and fans are praising it now, when it actually became poor parody and even more poor comedy. I can hardly laugh. All I can see is good actors wasted on material where they have to parody Jersey Shore and Real House Wives. I don't see the characters any more, I see the actors over acting and trying to hard. Maybe this was one of the reason I never felt for Avalance, even though I am lesbian myself. It just does not feel and look real. They kiss and hug with these big gestures and grimaces that is obvious, it is acting. And Caity is an amazing actress, she conveyed so much emotions on Arrow, she created this amazing human character that you can feel for. She took Sara's character from the dirt, where the writers had left her, with all this background of stealing her sister boyfriend, and then just being the dead obstacle of the main couple, and she made Sara a real person, likable, bad ass, nice, cute, soft, hurt, hard and so many things. She was just acting with her eyes. And I am not saying Caity is not good at comedy, she is, she is amazing at comedy, but even she admitted that on Legends she is mostly playing a version of herself and not a character that is why she enjoyed playing The Machine. And yes Caity is amazing in her parodies of Star Treck, Bugsy, Westerns, 90's movies, Charlies Angels. but this also means she should have been given the chance to shine with her own character, who could have been iconic. I read here a comment that the camera was never on her face in emotional moments in s5, and this is so true, this is exactly what I was thinking, but I noticed this back in s3 in her episode where she was possessed by Malus. They had the camera mostly on Nora, and the dialogue was given to Nora, while Sara hardly said anything, and then in the exorcism scene the camera was mostly on Constantine. Why? Caity is an amazing physical actress, she should have been able to put quite a performance ad someone who is exorcised by demons, she danced for Lady Gaga, which as a dance is not that different than being possessed ;), but they decided to cut the scene short make it as mundane as possible, very little physical movement, and all the acting was given to Matt Ryan. And he is the only actor and character that this show allowed to have his own episodes, long arcs, elements from his own show, cgi scenes(and he had a lot from them, poor Nate who barely stealed, or Zari who barely used her powers), stories about gloom and doom. Why couldn't they gave one episode to Caity similar to the solo episode they gave Constantine in s6, where she goes on a quest alone, battles her past, and overall explores her Canary background?

I agree: the writers didn't tried to compare Bishop and Ivo when they were writing the story. It was the fans who saw similarity between the description of the two mad scientists and thought there would be some parallel in the story, and then they just made their own head cannon that the parallel is the fact that Sara is bad ass now and she wasn't before. The writers of course took credit about it on twitter, even Keto wrote that she was part of the writing team that wrote the Ivo story and 'oh yes how developed is Sara now, she can fight'. That is what angered me. There was never parallel, and they never showed any development, and Sara was bad ass even on the island when she met Oliver. Legends never really developed her. But that is the other point, that they believe that being happy is developed, and yes happiness is a state and you can achieve it but it is not a constant. Every season she is killed, tortured, she loses someone, but she shows no emotions about it, because she is happy? Not showing grief and pain isn't showing happiness and development, it is being a psychopath. Sara was already happy with the Legends even before she met Ava, but then the whole credit went to her. Sara was also happy on Arrow when she went home and made amends with her family, but then she got sad and so on. This is life you can't be happy all the time, sometimes you feel good sometimes - not. She wasn't all gloom and doom on Arrow, actually the gloom and doom part was only hyperbolized because they wanted to prop up Laurel, but in the end the way it turned out was that this gloom just showed how big hero Sara is, when she went in the burning building and saved a little girl from explosions and fire. Legends never gave her such a scene. They even tried to pain her and the rest of the OGs in the 100th ep as some sort of brainless muscle who start a meaningless fight all the time, in order to show their development now compared to the bubbly goofy personas. And it was laughable. The only thing we saw was two groups of completely different characters hyperbolized to the superficial and leveled to one pronoun : goofy or angry. Obviously the whole idea to go to the parody genre and made the show meta and silly was driven by their lack of talent in characterization and writing believable adventure superhero stories. Even more Sara's characterization was backwards. On Legends it feels like we got back the careless party persona of pre island Sara, who does what she wants and do not consider the consequences much. And this is much more visible with the progression of the seasons and the whole idea of 'we screw things for the better'. In s2 she became a captain because she cared for the timeline, she made the ultimate sacrifice with the spear of destiny to preserve the timeline, she made the tough choices to also break time, to prevent Doomsworld, but then in the Time Bureau era all the Legends suddenly became irresponsible chainsaws, the way Rip called them. In the end of s2 he told Sara she is the better captain, in the beginning of s3 he suddenly created time bureau because Sara and the legends weren't good enough. So it is obvious that Ava and the timebureau were the reason of this so called progression, they needed the legends to be painted in this color for the need of the bureau. In a way Ava never really made Sara a better person, she made her worse.

I don't know if I am the only one, but for me Sara Lance was a clone with no soul from s4 onwards, or at least this is how the writers wrote her. I don't think these writers know their characters at all, or at least the OG characters. I presume the writing staff changed, because they like to write only about their new additions and the characters that are on the show from the start are pushed on the background and written over and over out of character. But Sara gets the shortest stick. I laughed so hard when the writing room had to explain themselves to the twitter crowd that Sara actually would love to go on a boat trip for a vacation, because you see she died so many times and shipped wrecked so many times, so she shouldn't be bothered by boat trips, she actually would love it, goodness. It is obvious it is Caity Lotz who loves boats, but for Sara makes zero sense. But this is another prove that this clone character obviously doesn't have the same soul. I mean just imagine what would the soul do or feel when they kill her over and over for laughs: what, she is just exiting the body and eats pop corns waiting for the body to regenerate after an explosion? I mean, do this writers even consider Sara as a human being? They talk about her development, but she got development log time ago on Arrow, and then the same development in the first two seasons of Legends, and a little further more in the crossovers to finally join the group of the so called 'big' superheroes like Flash and Supergirl. But on Legends they treat her like a tool of the plots they want to tell. How is a character a good character or gets a development when every story she gets just steals from her rather than give her something. And some people even compare Bishop story with Ivo story and say: Sara developed, so much! Really, why? Because she can fight now, and snap necks? Is this the development? The Ivo story made her Canary, she made her own proactive choices of darkness and survival, but then use her new toughness to help and save. She joined Ivo not because she was physically weak and in her underwear, she joined him because he promised her they will save the human race, and we can clearly see how Sara's face changes when he says this. She might have been stuck on a ship for a year, but they never suggested she was a victim, they actually said Ivo listened to her. In the end Sara played him and got away. (Of course we had degrading writing with the 'chose scene', where Oliver had to chose between her and Shado, but this is what happens when a show puts its males characters first. They obviously used Sara and Shado as a tool for Slade and Oliver.) But Legends did the same with Bishop, and even more. Sara was nothing more than a tool for the plot in which she had to be killed and cloned, she was never given proactive choice, as she was killed and cloned off screen, regardless of her kicking ass and snapping necks, she achieved nothing, she even looked stupid at times with her failed attempts to escape. Then she was made just to accept this in one episode and move on. There was no character change, she did not learn anything new from this experience, it brought her no new horizons or new lessons. It just stole her unique human body with scars and gave her a body they can shoot on screen over and over. If they wanted to show a real development and parallel these stories they should have shown a real parallel. Put Sara in a similar proactive situation where she has to chose to join Bishop and preserve her body, or save her soul and actually be a hero and save the Ava clones or other oppressed by him. But nothing of this happened. How are these people even writers, do they know the basic rules of writing a character and development and a parallel. For them Sara being snarky is the development, gosh. But in the end I am the fool, that allowed my self to waste energy and time on this show, but early Sara Lance was such an inspiration for me, that I just couldn't let go. So yes, I would be happy if her story ends now, I really have no interest to watch her became even bigger caricature, so they can show us their white straight male vision of a lesbian mother who got pregnant from a saliva.

I have never been more disappointed in Sara Lance story line than the one in the finale. I was disappointed in s4 not letting her grieve her father and have her own personal hell episode, I was disappointed in s5 that they did not explored her days in hell, when she was really dead, and that her blindness storyline was used to make Ava co-captain, so they took away the only thing that was still solo hers, I was utterly disgusted in s6 how they killed her and cloned her, only to make her another clone and give them self a reason to hurt her more on screen, but the pregnancy thing just tops all of this. I just couldn't even believe they were capable of that, but here we are. For years I had to wait for these writers to treat my favorite female hero, like a hero and not like a shippers tool, and had the crumbs that the crossovers and Arrow give me. But for them her story was over, she was just too big, so they needed to break her down, and keep her around for posters and weddings. I am almost sure that she will be even less in s8, and her motherhood story will be probably presented as another excuse to show how she is broken or nothing without Ava. I assume she will be attached to some nursery and even more attached to Ava, and they will appear together just for some team talking scenes. But this is what the shippers want, and this is what the writers care about. I still can't believe how the avalance shippers twitter outrage happen because in an episode Jess M directed, avalance had no screen time, and you see Sara 'didn't care for Ava' ?! While this was the episode they at least allowed Sara to be a captain and a protector of her team again and actually have scenes that are more action and proactive. Not to mention how a pregnancy that happened due to the fact that Sara was violated is actually celebrated. For me this storyline of Sara getting knocked up with out her knowledge, or even suspecting this is even possible, so she can take a precaution or actually plan it and be her own choice, is analogue of a teenage girl pregnancy who does the sexual act with having no sexual education before hand.