salaydouk

Oh I know... I am in the same camp as you and use them interchangably as well. It was just that you "lobbed a softball" with your comment, I just couldn't help myself from swinging at it. 😆 Rationalize he encountered them all in different circumstances.... I smell books.... lots and lots of Evil Picard books. 😆 See Sisko's name being dropped could also still be about name recognition... Sisko only existed because a Prophet("Sarah") inhabited a human woman to engineer his birth/creation. So in this timeline did the Prophets still send the "Sarah" Prophet to Earth? Seems unlikely the prophets would have chosen their emissary to come from a race so violently xenophobic. Lastly, would it even be the same Sisko or one that was born to Joseph Sisko and what was in the prime timeline his second wife? So like was said earlier we just have to find a way to rationalize how people would follow the same career paths while being sociopaths and wind up in either the same positions or encountering the same people no matter what... At a high level I completely agree because the show has thus far been fun, but I smell the writers have left room for non-canon books to be written.

LOL To which I would say don't mention the name Trekkies to die-hard Trekkers, they get a bit hot under the collar at the very suggestion of Trekkie! 😝 I thought the same thing. It just seemed like they just want to name drop DSP characters into this particular show, am not sure if writers are trying forshadow something, or it could just be most casual fans know Dukat and not Madred. But also re-using all of these characters in these contexts is still strange, because the timeline is different who is to say which characters, aside from Picard of course, would have the same positions/power in the normal timeline and would even be familiar with each other. I mean I doubt Picard from the altered timeline could ever have been captured and tortured and then escaped/survived. Because if he was captured, and based on his position in Earth society, the first thing any rebel would have done is kill him no questions asked.

If there was a training holo then Rios having a disjointed response doesn't make sense since he should have undergone the same training but I honestly did not think he was all that bad. Agnes is a civilian and a "loopy" one at that so her issues are easy to understand... But I think the best explanation for the ability for them to slip into fascist covers quickly was said in TOS "Mirror, Mirror" by Spock... "It was far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men."

But that would mean that the real Bell lived. Sisko and Bashir going back was what got Bell killed and Sisko had to take his place to keep the timeline intact. So then we can go down the rabbit-hole of it was or was not supposed to be that way in the first place... which this thread is probably not the right location to do so...😵

Sorry Grudge... Keelhauling doesn't really apply to space. Depending on the circumstances it could be torture or death or really both. And if you are just looking at the death part of it, then the space equivalent would be to be blown out an airlock.

I don't believe so. The "Yesterday's Enterprise" timeline appeared to us as the result of the Enterprise C coming through a rift in space time instead of being destroyed in an attempt to save a Klingon outpost. So that would mean the divergence that created that timeline was only 20 years earlier. While the timeline we are dealing with in Penance is due, we are told, to an divergence that supposedly originate in 2024. Also "Yesterday's Enterprise"'s timeline, I believe, is _still_ in the same timeline as what we saw in Star Trek TOS, that the hostilities with the Klingons was something present in Kirk's time that some how boiled over into war. If I remember the episode properly Enterprise C went through the rift and as a result did not attempt to save the Klingon Outpost thereby not generating any goodwill/good faith between the Federation and the Klingons that served as a basis for peace talks. Also it is possible that Enterpise C's disappearance into the rift could have resulted in the Klingon's believing that the Federation was resposible for the attack instead of the Romulans. But I don't believe that we ever got a complete explanation for the cause/start of the war and when it actually occurred. Well the discussion of current combat veterans was really to work as analogy. Of course we are still talking about the show and its science which at this point is specutation/plot points. But the realities of war and its effects on a human being would be universal no matter the time - past present or future. Agreed Picard would not know if he was a good or bad person before being subject to being a solider for all those years, but the point was that he would rather be that person and not the one he was in that present. So therefore it added another "log", though undisclosed, to the fire to his decision to send the Enterprise C back through the rift which already included the "logs" that they were about to lose and the suggestion from Guinan. Also in that timeline it was never disclosed what was the origin of Picard and Guinan's relationship so we really can't be sure just how strong Guinan's suggestion would have weigh on Picard. Also by this point, the Federation has been at war for probably close to 20 years - which would have resulted in tremendous numbers of dead. If given the possibilty of undoing those losses, it stands to reason that any soldier would make a choice to prevent the war from starting. And really since the Federation was losing he had really would have nothing lose by "taking the chance." But your point is valid that if they were staring down the barrel of winning he could have made a different choice.

go ahead be shallow, i thought the same thing when we saw President Hanssen's husband the first time... I mean is it too much to ask that he at least be taller then her ? 😜 Given my experience with combat veterans, I have found that most would rather have not had the conflict start to begin with. Aside from the soldiers with mental health issues, most would rather be the person they were the good and the bad instead of being the person they are after under gone their combat experiences. So I would like to think a battle hardened Picard would always make the choice to send Enterprise C Back.

I see your point. And sort of matches with Alt-Annika's husband's behaviour at the end of the episode when it appeared that he was absolutely salivating at the idea of taking over because he could make his wife out to be a traitor. That he wormed his way into power though/using her and finally got the opening he needed to grab power for himself and siezed it. That said.. what does it say about the human race that in four hundred years that it is expected that "alpha male" still could not stand to take a backseat to an "alpha female" in terms of job/status? Just said.... that sad in many TOS/TNG/DS9/and even last week's Picard there were always episodes laced with the undercurrent of racism, so perhaps we are doomed.

Because I don't want to get into trouble, going spoiler cover my guess. And I am hoping, though I do not condone domestic violence or violence in general, Seven just wipes the floor with her "husband." The choice they made for the actor for the role of husband for "Annika" in the altered timeline to me says something about the personality of the "Alt-Annika." That she must have been really twisted to be attacted to what would, on the surface at least, be a "step down"- he must be really really twisted to satisfy whatever blood thirst she had to kill non-humans.

Yeah I noticed later that they did not initially come to attention which is completely wrong. Your ordering is correct if Picard intended to give a speech and he wanted to the crew to hear it. But I got the sense he was more interested in having a conversation with Rios/his friend and not stand on ceremony on the Bridge - so that is why he simply stated to the crew "as you were."

HAHAHA! And that was when Picard was attempting to say Engage... And yeah there was no question about Starbuck...but I just really could not recall Face having them. So found a highlight reel and you are right.

So that would make Picard Hannibal? 😆 And thought Hannibal not Face was the one with cigars on A-Team?

While definitely that idea could be what is actually released as the reason by the time the season is over. But I just feel that is not staying true to the character of Picard that we saw though 7 seasons of TNG and even some of the behaviours shown during the Nepenthe episode in season 1. Picard never seemed to have any trouble working with Troi to gothough mental health issues, example the end of "Chain of Command" when he had been captured and tortured by the Cardassians and the episode end show the start of a session with Troi or during Family when it is obvious at the top of the episodes that he was having sessions with Troi and even "went home so his brother could fix him." But the best example is the scene in the ST:Generations where he is sitting with Troi talking about the death of his brother and nephew/how his nephew was the closest thing he would have to a child/the importance of this family history and how it would end with him now instead of going on with Rene. So a man that would be so willing to utilize therapy and having to deal with the fallout of his nephew's death/death to his family line, I just find it a bit hard to believe that there would not have been more sessions dealing with any potential reason for why he would not have a long-term relationship and/or family. So while he still might have chosen to remain alone/childless after therapy, I find it a bit difficult to believe that this particularchildhood trauma would just be coming up now. Just my two cents... Also could it just be that we are just over-analyzing this and overlooking the fact that Picard is now an android/synth? I mean maybe he is just afraid that the mechanics won't work. 😜 I mean is there android/synth "little blue pills"? 😝

I found the episode I was thinking of... It was S2 "Up the Long Ladder" And the concept was a force field envelopes the the fire and starves it of oxygen thus ending the fire. So no manual intervention is required the ship just does it. I know the Geordi&Beverly episode you are taking about though need to rewatch but like most things the two eps will turn out to be incongruous. Either way Rios can make fire on a space vessel...

Given the whole fire in space equals bad... wasn't there a TNG episode where the Enterprise sent out a beam/force field to contain and extinguish a fire that some passengers started? So where was that system when Rios was turning his lighter on and off? 🤔

I thought it was more of a "safety blanket." That he just needs to have something in his hands when he is bored on the bridge. Though I have to say, I had hoped that when he was running back to his command chair that he would "chuck it" halfway across the bridge. I think he had a lighter too, but I dont think he actually lit up? Did he?

I dont think so... lower graduate or less smart does mean you don't know/understand the most basic tenet of the military - that you follow orders. This is simply not a hard concept. Redshirts = Security = Dangerous Situations... The red shirt joke being understood, it still remains it is straight probability - the more often you are in a dangerious situation, the more chances you have to die. Also there is a very real likelihood that there would be certain Federation races that would naturally be suited for and choose Security over Command or Sciences and it wouldn't mean they are dumb or that their skills are any less important. The Klingons are the obvious example and now the Barzan. It really does takes a tremendous amount of smarts and ability to survive in the field especially in a combat situation for days on end - so I really won't discount them. Yes and no... There were two insertions of security officers to the bridge and the bridge crew. The bridge crew and the first insertion continued to fire after Rios told them to stand down - that is wrong. The second insertion came onto the bridge without hearing any stand down orders and they fired - based on the situation it is a toss up whether or not to take issue for them coming in "hot" and not assessing the situation or looking for orders first.

Yeah honestly there are too many instance of the self destruct mechanism being engaged in all of Trek that I have lost count... and I never watched enough of Voyager to even know they dropped it to one. But for sure only the CO is wrong, that is too much power in one individual. And having be CO and XO or at least the CO and one Bridge command officer would make sense.

I don't believe for one second Tarka could take Reno... she would mop the floor with him. That said, I think that Reno is just savvy enough to have let Tarka take her prisoner with the thought that she could sabatoge him and Book later.

They got it so wrong that I basically figured why even bring up the fact that both Captain and the XO would have agreed to and initiate the self destruct command. I believe this was confirmed as required in both TNG and for sure DS9( and would be in real life if a ship was to be scuttled.) Also upon further viewing, I also noticed that when Rios called out Admiral on the Bridge, the crew only stood with an "at ease" position instead of the required "at attention." Yeah this one also annoyed me. I was screaming at my TV over it... just further evidence that they are getting this just so so so wrong. While I understand that it is "hollywood", it is still annoying when basic military elements for what is military organization in a show are not handle correctly. So while all the other stuff is annoying... showing soldiers not following orders, is pretty impossible to blow off as "hollywood."

Normal course of study at US military acadamies is about four years, but the majority of the summers are still spent in non-academic military training. Using the US Naval Academy as probably the best analogy, after they first year Midshipmen/women do have a "sea assignment" in and around New England and after their second year they do have a 4 week "sea assignment" on a surface vessel or sub. So it is likely that Elnor is still a cadet and not yet a graduate. And a shipboard assignment as a cadet after 1-1.5 years of study is about right.

Would never happen. Starfleet, at most, gave Picard the role of Mission Leader - he was not given command of the Stargazer. Picard's role was to the mission. Rios is the Stargazer's Captain and the responsibility for the safety and security of the ship and her crew belong to him and him alone. Regarding how to complete the mission Rios would defer to Picard, but the moment Picard's mission choices adversely affects the ship/crew and/or the working conditions change(ie enemy opens fire) Rios becomes the man in control and can determine if the mission was still possible to complete and would not defer to anyone. The self destruct command could _only_ come from Rios.

I believe the usage of the order "As you were" was correct. Picards intention was to tell the crew forget he is on the bridge and to go back to what they were doing before they stood at attention due to his arrival on the bridge - therefore the order required is "as you were." If he had used the order "At ease" the crew would have no longer had to stand at attention, but they would have continue to stand but with a more relaxed posture while still doing absolutely nothing. I totally agree with you that Picard issuing the self-destruct sequence makes no sense. Regardless of Picard being the ranking officer and/or the "leader of the mission", Rios is the captain of the ship, and short of his being relieved of duty, he would be the only one to initate the self-destruct order. And it is odd that this mistake would show up here becuase this exact issue of Mission Leader/Ship's Captain the the differentiation in roles was specifically brought up in last week's Discovery episode. With everyone saying if it is "Green it is Borg", I just have to say that if we weren't in the Prime Universe, I think I would have screamed Romulan instead. 🙃 That said, I totally agree Green + Subspace Rift + Signal with Thousands of Voices = Borg. Totally don't understand why Seven didn't get it right away. I also don't get why they were arguing at all over whether or not to play nice with the Borg. Makes no sense regardless of the power status of the Borg they are a mortal enemy... blow them up. Random aside, I just loved the Rios' facial change before and after the Booming Borg voice - priceless.

I literally was screaming at my TV stating how can Cronenberg’s character gut/kill Zora out of existence. That that episode "Measure of a Man" create the precedent with in the ST universe that AI sentience made the AI equal to a biological life and therefore had the right to continued existence? He could argue to transfer the AI life, but could not destroy it. Agreed, I have been running on the hypothesis that the character is the current head of Section 31. No Kidding! That character and his portrayer(Mount) made season 2. Also that character/actor would have more of the necessary gravitas/experience to be taken seriously for some of the diplomatic aspects that have come up the last couple if episodes. (Heck I think Suru would have been better then Burnham.)

You are probably right about real life messing up with the Kyle show appearances. And yeah I hope they know it will not be okay post Covid. Because it is getting very very sloppy... That said I am still trying to figure out how we went from his uncle putting Kyle in a super secret barn with all that medical tech to him being awake and being treated by a doctor in the Deep Sky facility? I mean why didn't his uncle take him to Deep Sky to begin with? Or was written off by his uncle saying he had to figure what was going on first?