Screamnastics

Of course cast and crew are going to talk about the campaign, and plenty such campaigns have gotten billboards. It's what reach the campaign has outside of that that determines whether it's a "huge deal," and that simply hasn't occurred. It's not been talked about all over social media. This is an extreme exaggeration. As is the notion it still had "millions" of fans, plural. It had millions of fans at one point but a huge portion of them dropped the show mid-series. That's not something to dismiss, either. Hell, just look at the trajectory of activity on this forum. And it was like that most places where you can't just follow individual people or have suggested content or trends tailored to a person's activity. Everything being auctioned off can't possibly meaning "nothing." It means there is zero going on behind the scenes to keep the show going or wrap it up. Cast members working elsewhere obviously means less about backstage goings-on because we knew their contracts would be up, but it does mean some actors' schedules might make things difficult to do anything any time soon. The point is, as of now, the show is done and WBD have no desire to do anything with it, and to pretend appearances on the remaining shows would gum up the works of a campaign that would somehow otherwise be successful is just plum in denial of reality. The show has been on the bubble and barely scraping by since at least S4 if not earlier and they knew, network sale or not, it could be axed. And if Keto is now saying they had no inkling, that contradicts what she and others said earlier: http://twitter.com/ketomizu/status/1520392686535987201 And the network doesn't tell actors anything, and the EPs certainly don't keep their actors in the loop at all times, but longtime cast members have said they've been surprised by past renewals, so it's nonsensical to think everyone was expecting it to be a lock for a S8. Lots of people think they're going to have a job and then don't. If anyone thought it was guaranteed, they don't pay enough attention or were fed a load of bull. It wasn't just the Nexstar deal that made cancellation more of a possibility, but also the potential Discovery/WB merger which was known of well before that. No, not every fan hears what they want to hear at cons, but I've experienced more misreporting than not, so I don't take anything but direct quotes and preferably audio/video. Sorry. IDEK if you're talking about something you've seen/heard firsthand or if you're referring to second, thirdhand information. But again, Caity's thoughts don't dictate what I think, especially when she plays to whatever crowd is in front of her. I've watched her be badgered into giving people the answers they want. The original post wasn't even talking about Caity or other cast members. It was clear from your initial response you hate The Flash. I'm not even a fan, per se. I was just offering my point of view because you were trying to deny that anyone would want a Flash appearance (despite, again, responding to someone else who also does). Not going to board-on-boards by linking it but just earlier I saw multiple people on one of the most Flash-hating LOT forums saying they'd have loved a wrap-up on the Flash. You're calling me dismissive but I'm not full-on denying certain people and content exist. You're getting defensive about Ava and Avalance when I said nothing about the overall fan response to them, just my own individual thoughts. I disagree with you about their popularity but the topic is completely irrelevant. It simply boils down to this: LOT is over, and regardless of whatever possibility there is for something in the future, there were plenty of people who wanted at least some characters to appear on The Flash, and Beebo-obsessed, Westallen-hating, clickbait-"journalist" Burlingame neither speaks for the whole fandom nor has ever demonstrated he cares to be tuned into the general consensus on anything Legends-related. Edit: Also, FWIW, Batwoman also finished filming in December 2021 and they intentionally wrote a finale that could work as a series finale. LOT EPs had no excuse.

Define "huge deal." It doesn't seem to be on the same level as a lot of similar campaigns, most of which were unsuccessful themselves. And the only acknowledgement I've seen from someone not associated with the show was James Gunn trying to very diplomatically tell people to stop spamming him because it's not going to happen. Multiple cast members have moved on. Props have been auctioned off. It's over. Its cancellation was a possibility the writers were warned about and yet they chose, unlike every single other show at the CW at the time, to end on a cliffhanger, because they didn't care about wrapping up anyone's story. It is entirely their own fault fans didn't get closure. As for The Flash, I haven't watched it in years, but I could say the same about the quality of Legends of Tomorrow in its later seasons. At least Wallace respected the viewers enough to provide a season finale that would have worked as a series finale. I personally feel Sara as a character had been shown more respect on The Flash than she had on her own show for more than half its seasons, and would have loved to see her make an appearance in The Flash's final season, and I know quite a few people who felt the same way, though I have no desire to see her shackled to her wife or being forcibly pregnant while doing so. I actually never want any of the LOT writers sans a few who left prior to S4 to ever touch my favorites again. Mileages vary. It's ridiculous to suggest "no one" wants it when you're clearly responding to someone who would and the only reason we've had so much, "Egads, not The Flash!!!!" over the past year is because the more fanatical elements were responding to people suggesting it. I haven't seen a single convo about it where not one person wanted it to happen, unless you're talking strictly insulated echo chambers populated only by that specific segment of the viewers. If you truly think the consistent anti-Flash sentiment has not been a response to people asking for an appearance, then the fans responsible for the former would have to have been creating their own opportunities to be outraged about the Flash based on nothing, which would track with the loudest proponents of the later seasons of LOT being more fixated on the shows and characters they hate than anything the show they supposedly love is actually doing, but it should be obvious to anyone looking that that isn't the case here. While I love Caity, and I don't know why she's even being brought up, she says different things depending on where she is and who she's talking to, for starters. And LBR, the Venn diagram of people who don't want Sara on The Flash and those who never wanted her on Arrow while it was still running or even to acknowledge her Arrow roots on LOT except perhaps for her parents to worship Ava is basically a circle and yet Caity adamantly wanting more Arrow crossovers, acknowledgement, etc., was always ignored by them. She was also frequently saying she wanted to appear on The Flash until LOT was cancelled. Meanwhile, if we're going to bring up things she's made snipes about, boy would that say how little she truly liked 90% of her material since mid-S3. She recently said, according to a fan at a con, that Sara died for real in S6. Yet no one who's insisted that wasn't the case all this time is caring what she reportedly said about it. And my last issue with bringing her into the discussion: with all due respect, I do not trust the way fans at these cons relate what is said and how it's said based on a pattern of taking things out of context, misremembering, leaving out comments that don't suit their agenda, misinterpreting either accidentally or willfully, and not relaying or understanding tone. Of course she's going to support LOT getting a wrap-up of its own over a guest appearance on another show if it's one or the other. Which is, rather disingenuously, how the save-the-show campaigners position things despite that not being the only possibilities. That says nothing about whether or not she would want to make a cameo in general.

So is it just that those who tweeted stuff from the panel don't care enough about Caity/Sara to post any non-ship info about her or was the panel itself Jes/Ava Propping Hour like the show had become? If you'd told me right after that mess of a Lance family panel at HVFF years ago that we'd eventually get more from Caity out of panels with Katie than ones with a castmate on the show Sara was supposed to be headlining, I would have never believed it.

Ugh. I really wanted to be able to watch this episode to see familiar faces that I love but I was afraid it would just be an opportunity to gives us more revisionist Sara trashing to convince us she was an utter monster before she found love and to minimize or erase completely her trauma, and between those script pages and the commentary that went along with them, it looks like that's exactly what they did. I wasn't expecting literally every line in a preview scene to be totally OOC garbage, though. Quite the feat. Threatening to break Ray's arm, even as a joke? (Then again, this wouldn't be the first time Gideon's view of Sara was uncharacteristically hyperviolent toward her teammates, see her ridiculous portrayal in the simulations in "Here We Go Again.") Leonard, who took every opening to insult Ray and advocate leaving him for dead, etc., having to tell Sara, who always defended Ray to him, to go easy on the guy? Smiling at being reminded of what she went through in Nanda Parbat? Not seeing why Rip picked this team when she was supportive of everybody on it from the start? I guess destroying her for a few years and killing her off wasn't enough, they have to go back to when she was written well and try to destroy that retroactively, too. What gets me is that for all the telling us that she's matured and is more open now, she's acting in this scene exactly like she's been acting since S3, not how she acted before that. I'd like to see Jax and Ray again, but no thanks. Will have to watch the Flash team-up for some Ray, I guess. Edit: Forgot the part where Sara says to let them fight, which is, again, the total opposite of the level-headed, compassionate mediator they showed her to be from the very beginning and it was that immediate backseat-captaining that made it obvious why she should replace Rip as leader. I get this is within the first couple of days of the team since Carter is around, but retconning it so that Sara had to learn from an A.I. that has done all sorts of awful things to the crew over the years and had an incredibly bad sense of morality before being exposed to people outside the Time Masters serves no purpose other than to try to push Sara down even lower than they have already.

Souls have been a big plot point both for Sara on Arrow and for Legends in general. It's not as simple as copying her memories, though I'd argue even if souls were never brought up in these shows merely copying someone's mind into another body doesn't make that new body the same person. Unless they verify this Sara has the real Sara's soul or there's a twist, the Sara we've been watching for nine years is dead. And given the complete silence from the producers and Caity through all of this, I'm doubtful we're getting either, especially the former, because it's easy to just say, "Relax, keep watching," if there's more to it. I'd be more bothered by this if the show wasn't regularly super casual about consent issues, particularly where Sara's concerned. The Avalance relationship, for example, has been littered with consent issues from the start but we weren't supposed to care because it was Sara's autonomy being ignored. I don't know why it's suddenly a big sticking point because it's Ava's this time.

But that would mean either the Avas have no souls or Sara's forced her clone's soul out of that body.

It's already been my headcanon for years that the Sara that disappeared in the S2 finale is the real Sara and she's been having adventures through time off-screen while the one from the new timeline is just a hollow copy. On a different note, I really hope Behrad and company want to save Sara because they want her back and not just so Ava can stop melting down.

It's not "putting" Sara's Arrow death on the Legends writers. It's a part of Sara's history, one that Legends loves to exploit whenever they want to call Sara broken or an animal, so they know it happened. You can't just willy nilly bring a person back from the dead with tech in this universe. It comes at a cost. This is well established. Tech can't transfer a soul, or retrieve it. Sara is dead, but the writers want us to think merely copying her consciousness into a cloned body is enough. Sara has died before on LOT. More than the others, and in ways that weren't all "undone" via time travel. Usually more painfully, more graphically, more traumatically and more meaninglessly. This final time was particularly meaningless. She's also had her mind and body violated so many times now I've lost count but it's probably more than all the other characters combined and if it's ever acknowledged on this show, it's for jokes. John losing his magic isn't remotely comparable. Zari Tomaz isn't exactly dead, per se, but I have issues with the way she was treated, as well. And the fact she's treated as a separate entity from Zari Tarazi just reinforces why the suggestion this clone is Sara doesn't work. Edit: On a side note, have there been any post-episode interviews? This is a huge revelation and there's been zero comment on Sara's side of "Sara's story" from producers this entire time and Caity was allowed to answer one (1) very basic question last week but you'd think now that the information is known we'd get something. The silence on Sara all season long has been defeaning.

Yes. But we know that it's more complicated than that. Sara is the reason we know this. So, not only is the real Sara dead as far as I'm concerned, but they want us to believe everything she went through with the Lazarus Pit was pointless. They weren't content with killing her, they've had to systematically tear down, give away to Ava, erase or contradict every part of her life, too. Frankly, even if they do undo it, I'm just so tired of the Sara torture porn season after season, especially because the writers and the group of fans they listen to act as though she's being allowed to be happy. I've watched shows where characters are put through hell, but no one pretends otherwise. It's been made a joke, but how many times do I have to watch Sara be killed? And it's never quick or painless or even heroic and meaningful. How much does she have to be made to suffer on this supposedly fun and wacky, light-hearted show? And to constantly see PK say, "We don't want fans to worry, we wouldn't torture [Ava and] Sara," through all of it. I hate to think of what he considers torture if nothing's qualified so far.

I really didn't think they'd be stupid/awful enough to go that far. Well, the show's officially dead to me now.

They wouldn't even be equals if the writers do this, because they keep telling us Ava is so special and unlike all the others, and Sara would be easily replaced by a clone with her memories. I would be pissed off if the real Sara is killed off but at the same time at least she'd be away from Ava and be able to hang out again with a number of people who actually love and respect her like Oliver and Stein. I think it's more likely Bishop merged himself with Sara somehow, though. We'll find out soon enough either way. Whatever he did is a clear violation, so it's honestly disturbing to me that Phil Klemmer has sold that, "He didn't kidnap her to victimize her" line, even to the press. Christina Radish parroted it in that Collider interview with Caity posted above and I think it speaks to how checked out Caity is that she didn't even challenge that framing of the situation. Same with PK saying there's no reason to be concerned for Sara because she'll be back with Ava soon. Sara's being put through trauma after trauma, and it's clearly going to continue once she's back with the team, and the writers seem to think her only problem is not being with Ava. I can't imagine them downplaying it if it were Ava going through any of this. They villified the hell out of Rip just for using Avas and compared him to a demon. But Sara's captor and tormenter who's done God know what to her now Totally Isn't Victimizing Her?

For a couple of years, the PR line was, "Skip to Season 2," but now that they've gone into overdrive trying to make Co-Captain Fetch happen, the new PR line of course says to skip to when Ava showed up. Notice the only times a character is mentioned in any of those episode recommendations, it's about Ava, with Adam even ignoring that Sara was part of the fight scene in, "I, Ava." Considering everyone was still enthusiastic about S2 until last season and what actors have complained about or said they've wanted in less network-controlled environments suggest they have more issues with later seasons than the earlier ones, I don't buy the idea to start at S3 is genuine coming from certain people. As for what to expect in S6, interviews like this one tell me it'll just be more of the same BS as last season, if not cranked up to 11.

While a Legends appearance is possible, he's been in and out of Vancouver since S3 because his children are there, and he's also worked on other Vancouver productions.

It depends on the actor, but they did spend multiple interviews last season talking about how excited they were to write Tala and Jes's friendship into the show more. Caity's been pretty close to a few castmates over the years and the more she asked to have scenes with them, the more distance the writers put between Sara and their characters. Hell, she was actually living with Keiynan when he joined Legends, and Sara and Wally had, what, a single conversation? That lasted for fifteen seconds? All the regulars and so many guest stars have mentioned how welcoming Caity is and that she's a leader on set, so if the writers do want to mimic real-life dynamics, they seem to have a very large blindspot. Well, nearly all the regulars have.