Swansong

Not only that. Having destroyed Torchwood, even getting rid of TW2, killed off all, but two of the personnel so that Jack and Gwen can run around the world like some rogue double act they still want us to believe that Torchwood as an organisation still matters and still has the authority to boss other institutions around like the CIA. lol. Apparently just saying your Torchwood is all you need these days.

Well I definitely think it's because they loved BG better as an actor and he is a stronger actor in a number of ways. And maybe they thought he complimented EM better because a lot his story line focuses on interactions with her and she is obviously the star of the show (no offence JB). Sometimes I think Owen is the character Jack is supposed to be and can't be because of his DW ties and because of his role as Doctor to Gwen's Companion: the bad boy rogue, who is irresistible to women and great in bed. Who does bad things, but really only needs the love of a good woman to redeem him.

Because they didn't realise they might have to? They do write it to be a bit of a laugh. I do think they attempt to redeem him towards the end of s1 with the Diane story line and then more so in s2 where he's suddenly interested in looking for love and not just sex, is less of an arsehole to Tosh and gains a tragic fiance and shitty mother to explain him, but that's not specific to him possibly raping two people. Some think Ghost Machine is supposed to redeem him of his own rapist tendencies, but I can't see it. There's never a single moment in that episode where either the text or the character shows any awareness of Owen's previous actions. I never really got into Owen even outside of his actions in the pilot, he never actually did much for me even though he was clearly supposed to, but I actually think I'd have found him a lot more interesting if they had addressed the raping head on. I mean they wanted the show to be dark and that did suggest a very dark character and in relation to how they seemed to want us to view Torchwood, an organization with too much power and too little oversight, that pretty much did what it wanted when it wanted I think I could have found him interesting. Of course that assumes the writing being up to that.

So I watched the episode. It's kind of eh and I don't have much to say about it that hasn't been covered already. Better than Day One and the team mostly behave like grown ups so that's a plus. EM's big eyes acting gets quite a workout in this episode so I thought about Captanne often since I know what a big fan they are of it. lol The special effects are terrible. The scenes where Gwen sees herself holding the knife is kind of laughable. A few observations: Tosh gives the most useless description of a suspect ever lol. Man in a hoody in a sea of men wearing hoodies. Worst he has a jacket over the hoody so you can't even see it. Why not say man running since he is the only man running at that point besides Jack and Owen. Why is Lizzy standing in the middle of a tunnel talking to herself? It looks like she's having a conversation with her imaginary friend. Is that supposed to be a manifestation of her thoughts or something? Because otherwise it's a bit of an unintentionally funny moment. Jack is kind of stroppy at the beginning of this episode. That also made me laugh. Also he really is the exposition fairy of this show. Gwen does her mostly by rote Debbie Downer bit when Jack suggests using the ghost gizmo to track Bernie Harris ("it could be dangerous, blah, blah, blah) and then promptly takes it home so she can play around with it for funsies. Ianto apparently spends this episode down in the basement with cyberLisa because he's mostly a no show which might also explain why the team are still able to take alien tech off base without anyone apparently noticing. This episode does explain why he's able to sneak Lisa into the Hub without being spotted though.Did it really need four people to talk to Bernie Harris in the pub?

Well Jack wasn't telling them what they wanted to hear i.e that yes I do have a magical solution to reverse this mess so they decided to follow Owen because at least he was telling them what they wanted to hear. That's basically what it boils down to. Owen has less credibility than Jack, but of course it makes sense to follow him and a vision. That's part of the problem I do think the episode attempts to lump them all together and kind of awkwardly because it wants to use the plot device of the visions to justify the whole team opening the rift. It's not that I can't see them getting to the point of deciding the world is going to hell so why not open the rift and see if it reverses the problem, but it's the reasons given for why they decide on that solution in the first place that ruin the episode for me. That would have helped the episode for sure. At least for me. Why not have Tosh suggest that they could possibly reverse the damage by opening the rift manipulator again and that it's a long, long dangerous shot, but it might be all they have? Jack could still shoot her down "it's to dangerous blah, blah, blah. I'm the boss shut up" and he could still have been portrayed as a dumbass who mouths off and riles up his employees. But at least it wouldn't just be Bilis and visions telling them to do it.

Lol! True, but at least it's sort of sweet that at least for a little bit Ianto's emotional well being seems to trump sex.

It was a transcript of an im between Jack and Ianto discussing their stopwatch rendezvous and then they talk about the glove possibly being used to bring Lisa back and why Ianto doesn't ask. But I guess it got taken down for copyright infringement.

It has nothing to do with Gwen's opinion being lore. My point is the only reason they want to open the rift that we're ever shown is because Bilis told them it would reverse everything. And all their visions conveniently sing Bilis's tune. Even Owen doesn't come up with his own idea. He's just following what Bilis told them because he thinks he'll get Diane back. But at this point they already know Bilis can't be trusted and is manipulating them because he wants something. Certainly Ianto believed that in CJH. He guessed that Bilis was manipulating to get them to open the rift and possibly cause some sort of chaos. And guess what? He pegs it right. So if I buy their actions in EOD I have to buy that Ianto suddenly thinks Bilis is now worth trusting. Otherwise why do they think opening the rift again is a good idea? It's not as if anything or anyone else is suggesting its a good idea. If he didn't already believe Bilis was manipulating them or the episode remembered that Tosh was supposedly their rift expert just the last episode ago and had her concluding that it was a long shot, but might work independent of Bilis urging them to I could buy them thinking it might be a worthwhile risk. But solely off Bilis' say so when they already know he's manipulating them for his own ends, I think, makes them seem dumber than dirt. And yes Jack may suck as a leader, but frankly so does Owen and much worst when he has the chance to be a leader both in CJH and in EOD, something, again, you'd think Ianto at least would be cognizant of at this point since he was the one who primarily had to deal with his crazy arse in CJH and at least Jack has the plus of actually being right on his side and not seemingly acting or not mainly because he believes there's something in it for him. I just don't see anything that we're shown in these last two episodes that suggests Owen is a better option to follow than Jack and everything that suggests he's actually a worst option even before Jack is proved right. Again. I don't know I would say Owen murdering Jack is actually a pretty big betrayal. And yet even after he shows he's lost it enough to do that they still think it's a good idea to follow him. But I get your point. I should have put the word betrayal in quotes because I do think that's how the show wants to frame it even though I agree them going against him doesn't automatically mean betrayal.

That im is interesting and kinda fun. It's a bit sad, though, that they seem to have more meaningful and insightful conversations in a throwaway web extra than they ever seemed to be allowed to on the actual show.

I feel like this episode is such a missed opportunity and it's one of those episodes that seems to becomes progressively worst the more I watch it. Even with Cyberwoman, which I disliked the first few times watched it, there were scenes I grew to appreciate, but this one just irritates me. This episode should work because it's the culmination of all the tensions that have or should have been building up between the team and Jack and yet it doesn't, for me, not least because the reasons for the team betraying, at least for Tosh and Ianto end up making no real sense. Tosh and Jack are shown as closer and having a great sense of trust in each other because of their shared experience back in 1942 at the end of CJH and Ianto is willing to leave Tosh and Jack back in 1942 rather than risk a lot of lives, twigs that something is off with Bilis and that he is likely manipulating and possibly creating the situation for his own nefarious ends. And yet all the astuteness and intelligence he shows in that episode pretty much die in this one. The only reason Ianto and Tosh have for believing opening the rift is the way to go is because Bilis says so (why would they trust Bilis at this point?) because of their visions (well more Ianto because Lisa tells him it'll save lives. Still don't know what Tosh's is supposed to be about). And Owen. If Ianto hadn't been shown clearly realizing something is off with Bilis and that he seems to be playing them I could see him being swayed by Lisa vision and not wondering why she just happens to be telling him not only what he might want to hear, but what Bilis keeps saying. But why does Owen have any credibility with the team any more? He's the one who started this mess in the first place because he couldn't deal with Diane choosing to leave him. Worst even at this point he's still harping on about getting Diane back which should be a huge red flag that Owen is still being pretty self-serving and should be treated with nothing, but scepticism. I have a lot of problems with Jack generally and even in this episode, but even with that he still has more credibility than Owen as far as I'm concerned and following him just makes Tosh and Ianto look like morons. Gwen at least has the excuse of grieving. And I'm sorry. I know that Gwen is the specialist snowflake that ever snowed on this show, especially at this point, but the idea that because Rhys is the one killed the team now decide, the world be damned, it's now worth risking potentially killing off thousand, if not millions of people if there's a slim chance it'll bring Rhys back for Gwen is just ugh, particularly when it's already pretty clear that if it was anyone else on the team experiencing this kind of loss no-way the show would ever expect us to believe that because the needs of the many outweigh the few blah, blah, blah. Not to mention it pretty much negates the growth Ianto's supposedly acquired in the wake of the Lisa fiasco in CJH. I can buy them feeling for her, but the show, at least for me, needed to give them a more compelling reason than Owen "I dated a woman for a week and decided to destroy the world to get her back even though she made it clear she didn't actually want me back" Harper says so and tragic consequences don't apply to Gwen. Like actually utilizing Tosh, the supposed rift manipulator expert in CJH as a rift manipulator expert in this episode, who assesses that it's a long shot, but possibly a valid solution. Worst having contrived some pretty ridiculous reasons for all the team to betray Jack and have it backfire with the rise of Abaddon they then completely sweep the consequences (i.e all those deaths he causes) under the carpet and pretend it never happened. And don't even get me started on Gwen's look how much more faith she has in Jack than the team moment right after she was happy to betray him and watch Owen shoot him without so much as a pause. If they'd made it about her guilt and wanting to overcompensate for that I think it would have been a great character moment, but using it to apparently show once again why she's supposedly so much better than her team mates is just another mark in the negative column for this episode for me. It just makes her seem once again like a hypocrite and not even a still rootable for hypocrite, but a tediously annoying hypocrite. And, yes, lol, to her once again pretty much losing interest in Rhys five minutes after he comes back to life. I guess this is like the retconning incident. Because he won't remember it she can just forget all about it too. I don't see Ianto as upset with Jack until he tells him no after Jack warns him to stop Owen, but why he'd be upset with Jack even at that point I have no clue. He comes off like a petulant child to me to be honest. What reason does he have to mad at Jack? Because he doesn't magically have a solution for the mess he warned them not to create in the first place? Jack told them not to open the rift like that and Owen ignored him. This is Owen's mess. While I like the idea, in theory, that he won't always go along with Jack just because Jack says so this moment really does him no favours. He just comes off as kind of immature and silly.

Yeah you may need to start a new thread, but I suppose it'll be ok.

I think another problem is that once a couple gets together almost all, if not all, their storylines become about the relationship. They stop treating the characters like individuals with potential storylines outside of being a couple. So any drama they go through ends up being about the relationship and writers can only do so much with that before it becomes repetitive and then to compound the problem the relationship angst they come up with often isn't even all that organic to the couple it's usually contrived, often in the form of a third party being thrown into the mix.

I guess they were going for charming rogue? because there doesn't seem to be a single woman on the show who doesn't fall for him outside of the pilot. But, yeah, I just found him kind of gross and unpleasant even beyond the pilot. And the attempt to redeem him in s2 just felt too little too late. It made me very sad that Tosh got saddled with him as her crush for almost the entire duration of her time on the show not only because she deserved so much better, but because it just seemed to stunt her character development.

I didn't mind that it was romanticized because it fit with the overall tone of the show at that point in this regard. It's only when the show started claiming the romanticism was all Hub induced and not the real world that I started to eye-roll.

So Day One Rewatch. This is a tacky, terrible episode. And juvenile is about right. The good. Like I said I like this version of Tosh and I thought the actress playing Carys did a good job. Um. I actually liked the scene where she goes to the boyfriend because of the moral issue it raised and because Carys seems to cross a line from victim to perpetrator. If the episode had focused more on exploring moments like this it might have actually been worthwhile. The bad has already been covered. The team watching while Gwen makes out with Carys even though they know that sex is how she kills. Owen. Apparently the pilot wasn't just a fluke. He really is that gross. Jack acting like Gwen discovered the meaning of life after she does her collage of Carys' life. If that's seriously his idea of brilliant then Gwen's right he has been stuck down in the Hub too long and needs to get out more. It's made even more ludicrous because it apparently doesn't even give her any real, useful insight into Carys. Jack letting out a dangerous alien who has already murdered to save the Doctor's arm. But I also have to add Jack fighting sexism in the workplace with his own special brand of workplace inappropriate comments. Gwen making out with Carys like it's just one of those things you do and then lecturing the team about their inappropriate behaviour with a victim. This is our first introduction to the team and it's not exactly a winning sale. And no, show, it's not because they're apparently so morally dubious. It's because they're idiots. I can't believe the writers thought this was the best way to sell the audience on the show. Maybe they were banking on Gwen's doe-eyed look to distract us or something because she uses that expression a lot in this episode. In the continuing saga of Torchwood, the worst secret organisation ever. Not only is no-one supposed to know what Gwen does, they're also not supposed to know who she works for so why call her into work with a text message that reads Torchwood? Another thing I noticed. Ianto comes on, says his line about checking with his eyes and then just disappears again. What exactly was the point of that moment? Just to give him something to do? lol. And yes, show, not having a partner really does equal not having a life.

When they're up on the plaza and Ianto tried to run back into the Hub and he holds up the gun and then Jack trains his gun on him I realized that means Jack has his gun when he sics the pterodactyl on Lisa which made me wonder why he didn't just use his gun and try and kill her.

Probably not. Not only because s1 doesn't seem that well planned, but also I think they were playing Owen as the love 'em and leave 'em type who unexpectedly falls in love when he meets Diane. They play it as if love is kind of a revelation to him. I think if they'd already planned his dead fiance back story when they wrote s1 then Out of Time seems like an obvious episode to bring it up, not least because it would have ratcheted up the angst factor. Is Owen sympathetic/ empathetic about Ianto's loss of Lisa? He certainly isn't in Captain Jack Harkness so who knows? And yep Fragment's retroactively makes Jack siccing the pterodactyl on Lisa kind of ironic, but I suspect that was kind of deliberate.

Something else I realised. Jack looks like an actual action figure when he's standing on that building. That made me laugh. I can't decide,though, if it is because an actual action figure was used to film that scene at one point.

It's because she's so huuuman! I guess her retconning him is supposed to be mitigated by him shouting at her earlier, but I can't say I agree. He's kind of an arse, but she manages to be an even bigger one. And they don't even convince me she does it because the relationship means all that much to her. She feels guilty about the affair enough to retcon him so she can confess without consequences, but not enough to make even a cursory effort on one of the supposedly rare times they're out together? Whatever Gwen.Why am I supposed care about this relationship at this point? But I guess that's Gwen logic because she doesn't apparently consider that then she'll likely just have two more things to feel guilty about on top of the affair. Although I guess she gets over it all since later she has no compunction about telling him there'll be no more secrets between them when all this is still sitting in the treasure chest. I probably wouldn't mind that she's such a hypocrite if the show didn't keep trying to sell it as something else. And I agree about Mark. One of the dullest guest characters imo. Him saying there's something in the dark. Did a weevil tell him that? Laziest attempt at foreshadowing and plot building ever. At least Owen's reaction to Diane leaving him in this episode is somewhat measured in comparison to how he is in the last two episodes of the season. He actually manages to make Ianto's response to Lisa in Cyberwoman seem reasonable in comparison at that point. I enjoy the interactions between Jack, Ianto and Tosh too. There's a look they both get when Jack does something at one point that is priceless. I don't much care for this episode because I find Mark's male angst pretty tedious, but I'll watch this episode just to watch those three interacting.

So I watched the episode. Figured since I was talking about Torchwood may as well watch it. The pilot is ok. It does its job. You can tell they're on a restricted budget and even though it was only 8 years ago it does feel a bit dated. Having read that article about Torchwood failing because it forgot the children I did keep thinking it does feel like a production you might see on CBBC or CITV. Gwen spends hardly any time in this episode actually doing her job to the point that when she tells the weevil to stop messing about because she's busy I laughed. She doesn't exactly act like someone whose job keeps her busy. Also this always bugs me. She witnesses someone being attacked and instead of dealing with that or calling someone in to deal she chases after Torchwood while they apparently do theirs (albeit kind of badly. Did they seriously wait until someone was attacked before subduing what they knew was a potentially dangerous alien? Jack runs up long before Gwen? What's he doing all that time? And how small is Cardiff? The police are apparently called to what looks like a mini riot and only Andy and Gwen show up to deal. They don't even call for back up. Owen using the spray because a woman makes it clear she's not interested is still gross. Made even more gross because it's played for laughs. I guess it's ok because he does it to a bloke too. Equal opportunity rape for the win! But going from Jack telling Gwen he makes sure that the tech never leaves the base to his team taking tech home is an amusing if unsubtle moment. I guess they really want the audience to see why Gwen is so necessary for Torchwood. Not that she proves to be any better in this area, what with her own taking tech off site for her own personal use and stealing retcon so she can drug her boyfriend. Also he tells Gwen at the pub that Torchwood is beyond the government blah, blah, blah which then gets completely rewitten in COE so they government can blow up Torchwood. Is Gwen lying to Rhys about doing her job, especially the first time,supposed to say something about her character because otherwise it makes no sense. He does know she's a police officer and that she works with crime and she knows he knows so what's the mystery here? I get not wanting to tell him that she saw a man brought to life, but she can't admit she was at a crime scene? What a ridiculous moment. Torchwood apparently have the maturity of 12 year olds. I thought this was something that only came up in Day One, but no it's pretty evident in this episode. And it's no surprise that Torchwood is the worst kept secret. Besides having their name on their car (why?) and ordering pizza under their company name they also apparently think its wise to try out alien tech in the middle of what looks like residential/business area. Lucky for them only PC Cooper seems to care at that point. (Possibly because everyone else in Cardiff already knows about Torchwood and what they do. Except the police (well until Day One).) Gwen's line to Jack about being tired of following him around, I guess, is supposed to be their equivalent of a significant Companion/Docctor moment, but it falls a bit flat. Not only because EM's delivery is pretty flat, but it makes no sense. The only reason she's embroiled in Torchwood business is because she chose to run around after them just because. Instead of sounding like some great prophetic moment like it's supposed to it just sounds dumb. I do like the scene between her and Suzie at the end though even though it makes a complete nonsense of her resurrection in episode 8. She admits to only being able to work the glove for 2 minutes at a time so again how is this master plan supposed to work out again? Also I'm going to assume Suzie has some serious issues with Jack because she murders three people just to test a glove, murders him without breaking a sweat even though she knows him and has apparently worked with him for a while and is his second in command, which suggests a level of trust on his part, but cries and wibbles over killing Gwen because, why? She's just too gosh damn pretty and special? lol. This show. I mean if she wasn't so callous about killing Jack I'd assume it's because killing is just that difficult for her. But apparently not. Sigh. It was kind of stupid of Suzie, though, to kill people with such an easily identifiable weapon. She's lucky it never occurred to the police to go to the press with the type of weapon in the hopes it would lead them to the killer which might have been a smart thing to do. But if the police were actually smart that would make Gwen less unique, I guess. Having Gwen only mention Owen and Tosh at the end, presumably because Ianto is supposed to be short-lived at this point, is kind of lame writing and doesn't make any sense. Every time she meets them she meets him and in fact he's the first person she sees when she arrives at Torchwood. Are the writers taking retcon too? I assume the reason why she doesn't note him when she's trying to remember Torchwood on her computer is because each remembrance is punctuated by a scene of that particular character and Ianto doesn't get one of those which seems like a silly reason to have her not remember him. Jack tells Gwen he's hiring her because she's right they could do more to help, but do they? I mean they show up at crime scenes pretty regularly, but only in relation to suspected alien involvement. Do they ever show up just to help the police because their knowledge or tech might be useful. I can't say I ever remember that happening. It seems to remain a pretty one way street. I guess if I stick with the rewatch I guess I can see. Also they don't exactly sell the idea that working for Torchwood is a job you want to cling on to even though Suzie apparently wants to cling to it. But all she moans about is how crappy it is. How they only ever get the crappy aliens and the crappy experiences so what exactly is she supposed to be clinging to? How crap it all is? I mean there's moaning about your job and then there's this. Beyond suggesting that everyone at Torchwood is social inept and emotional and psychologically dysfunctional and that's why they stay with the company because they couldn't function anywhere else apparently they don't exactly sell its appeal.

Lol! I thought I was the only person who thought that. Jack's expression doesn't match the emotion of the music at all. He seems annoyed and unimpressed and then he just walks off. Maybe the show was going for irony.

We joke about Torchwood being incompetent, but they are oddly kind of incompetent. Even basic common sense seems to elude them a lot of the time. This episode is ruined a bit for me because of that. It's similar to Adrift in that I can't help thinking poor handling and incompetence is as much responsible for the bad outcome for the Riftfugees as the overwhelming situation. I get that they're trying to show Torchwood as flawed, but I find them less flawed and more just not all that good or smart at what they do and I'm never sure what to do with that. Are we supposed to find that endearing? But I agree about the guest characters. They are interesting and I'm genuinely interested in their stories, even though I'm not all that interested in the romance between Owen and Diane. Maybe because I just don't care about Owen so him being dumped after a week of a relationship is more eh than aww for me. This is one of those episodes like Random Shoes where I wish they'd shaken things up a bit. Tosh is pretty absent from this episode.

Heh! I'm sure the sex proposition was a surprise. Did Jack even know he was being propositioned at first? I think the previous episodes show the opposite of that. Jack is never really shown dealing with the issues happening with his team even though it is clear there are serious issues and Ianto is shown as apparently not willing to live and let live about Lisa and then is shown clearly still grieving her. But then in this episode everything is ok? When is the trust-building supposed to have happened? When does Ianto get over thinking his team mates can't be bothered to remember Lisa anymore? As you say all the stuff that should come in between happens off camera or I'm assuming doesn't actually happen at all.

Obviously there is life after death and apparently Suzie spent it haunting the Hub so she could spy on Gwen and bask in her amazingness. They did destroy the glove so it was unlikely she'd have the chance to take Suzie's route and it's also not clear whether the glove made Suzie psychotic or whether Suzie was already a psychopath and the glove just enhanced that. Although Gwen does seem to become pretty obsessive on the power of it pretty quickly. In this episode I totally buy there's something going on between them and I agree there seems to be a growing closeness there. But I think the previous episodes suggest all isn't necessarily well, but that kind of gets dropped and suddenly they're having sex. This show is weird in that they manufacture drama between characters that doesn't necessarily make sense for those characters just so they'll be drama in the episode, but ignore the tensions and dramas they've already set up.