Anothermi
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45 minutes ago, gingerella said:
Does Louis say he's going to appeal to the British authorities to get Jamie cleared of charges so he can go back to Scotland, or did he just say basically, 'you'll be wanting to get the hell out of France now'?
Took some looking, but this was what he said after the "payment":
Louis: I will issue a pardon for your husband and arrange one with the English crown should you wish to return to Scotland.
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12 minutes ago, gingerella said:
That said, I believe it connects to what Claire saw when Master Raymond visits her in the hospital and asks her to close her eyes and tell him what she sees - she says blue skies but doesn't mention herons IIRC - so I guess that is the connection?
Here I go again with the transcript-via-closed-captioning. Hope this helps re: the blue Heron reference in the 1950s @gingerella
Raymond: Shh, shh, shh. Hush, Madonna. If they find me here, I'm finished.
Claire: Master Raymond.
Raymond: Tell me what you see, Madonna.
Claire: Oh, wings. Blue wings.
Raymond: Mm, blue with the color of healing. The wings will carry your pain away, if you let them.
21 minutes ago, gingerella said:The whole situation where King Louis expects Claire to service him afterwards as payment for releasing Jamie, it was so perfunctory, like he had to do it because that's what a King does in such situations
That's exactly what I saw happening. Louis IS the law and all powerful. But he takes that power for granted and abuses it. He's bored.
24 minutes ago, gingerella said:but it didn't even feel like rape to me, it felt like a really sad exchange, and he didn't even seem to enjoy it.
I was just grateful that there's only one BJR in this story.
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Finally. An episode I am content with.
Jamie enters the Bastille due to the dictates of his honour...and Tyrion Lannister returns to claim Claire (especially due to the camera angle over the staircase). Surprising turn of events! (I kid you but I did think Jamie looked like Tyrion in that scene!)
Claire stops being a caricature of a strong woman and becomes real one.
Only Comte St Germain is killed and it wasn't even Claire who did it! She got to experience human conscience and Monsieur Raymond shouldered the guilt. I'd imagined that the Comte might end up an ally of our two protagonists and— oddly— his death made him exactly that. It saved them. Raymond knew that the King would not be pleased without at least one death.
I'm glad that the mystery of how Claire could be so visibly pregnant at this point and so non-visibly pregnant when she returned to her present was solved. We can look forward to another bunch of sex scenes perhaps?
And continuing on the theme of segues from this show to a completely different show? There was one scene where a carriage enters a cobbled plaza(?) to the string music reminiscent of the 20th century Sherlock series (Jeremy Brett. My favourite Sherlock). I always liked that music so it was a good time-shift.
I really do appreciate that this show gives us the "hidden" reality of women in history. The birth scene, the fact that women were as impacted by a rape, or the loss of a child as in present times. It's not glossed over and hand waved away. Plus? I could once again relate to Claire! (exhale) Finally.
This one is my favourite episode so far.
This was a closure episode—and from what I've seen so far— we need one every 3 episodes! Buh Bye France!
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On 4/8/2021 at 1:28 PM, SassAndSnacks said:
Trying to make a good person out of BJR will get you nowhere! Just ask Claire - it got her punched in the guts!
I loved the pie-in-the-sky scenario that @gingerella proposed but... ^^THIS!^^
On 4/8/2021 at 7:34 AM, SassAndSnacks said:I believe, either Suzette or Magnus tells Claire that Jamie has gone to the Bois de Boulogne, after explaining what happened when Jamie went to ME to clear up BPC's debts. There's a lot of confusing dialogue in this scene, and I watch while running which isn't the most reliable way to go about these things.
<snip>
Speaking from personal experience, you know it is a bad sign and yet you don't want to or can't allow yourself to believe it.
In my head, the timeline is -
1. Message from ME to go pay BPC's debt.
2. Jamie leaves with Fergus.
3. Apparent confrontation with fuckface Randall.
4. Jamie returns home, gets sword, takes off brace, writes note.
5. Jamie goes to the duel.
6. Claire comes home, finds note, leaves the house.
I went back to the scene when Claire arrives home—because it was hard to follow during first viewing—and switched on the closed captioning for assistance. SassAndSnacks time line appears to be accurate. There was a snippet from Suzette that adds to it so I transcribed it. The note, of course, doesn't appear in the closed captioning.
Claire: My husband's brace is there. He's obviously back from Le Havre. Where is he?
Suzette: Milord has gone to the Bois de Boulogne.
Claire: Now why would he go to the woods?
Suzette: Milord was called to Maison Elise. Prince Charles needed his help. Soon after he arrived, Milord got into a fight with an English officer.
Claire: What English officer? What was his name? Suzette?
Suzette: I wasn't there, Milady. Marie told me at the market earlier. She overheard this master telling his wife everything...
Claire: Just, Goddamnit, tell me what happened.
Suzette: The English soldier came hurtling out of a doorway, smashing into the walls. Then Milord appeared looking like the vengeance of God. It is just as Marie conveyed it.
I didn't catch that bolded bit first go round, but it was clear to me even so that Jamie's promise was broken because of BJR abusing Fergus. I just hope the boy had cried out and Jamie ran to find him quickly. I love that the person who recounted the event at Maison Elise to his wife SAW BJR hurtling out of a doorway and smashing into walls and THEN—Jamie emerges looking like the vengeance of God. Too bad it was a throw away line in the show.
Now I want to know—who tipped off the Gendarmes?
And—WHY does Claire never trust Jamie? She assumed he broke his promise on some whim?
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On 3/4/2021 at 10:27 PM, Camera One said:
I don't know why Claire feels the need to meddle with time. Jack Randall not dying was clearly a sign that the universe will work itself out and Frank's lineage won't be broken.
I'm glad to know this was obvious. It doesn't do Claire any favours to see she is a woman with her own mind and then have her blunder around messing up so many things and causing pain and danger to those around her. It is reminiscent of the plucky-damsel-who-always-trips-and-falls-when-being-chased-by-bad-guys trope.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:She is a rape victim and my money is on her being with child as a result, no matter what Claire says.
Claire now has history of firmly telling someone something she believes to be true—and being wrong.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:Analiese is the new french Leery, and I don't like her one bit. Why are these two women who pine for Jamie, not able to see that he is a man now, a husband and soon to be a father. He is no longer a reckless boy (well, maybe still reckless at times) and yet these two 'girls' only want to see the 'boy' they once knew. Talk about stunted adolescents. Be off with you Analiese, you french skankette!
I can't seem to keep these French coquettes separate in my mind. For a while I thought Annalise was the woman who came to the dinner party with Comte St. Germain! Then I finally remembered that other friend of Louise. All I got from the scene with Annalise is that it doesn't take much to make Claire jealous of Jamie and she doesn't think straight when she is. She should just blame all her upsetting demands on baby hormones. That would shut them up.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:the entire groveling for the King was a small nugget of goodness after having to see this scumbag again, especially groveling in front of Jamie, that had to hurt
That whole garden scene. Twice! Not once but TWICE! Claire was caught by someone indicating there was someone behind her and when she first turns it's BJR and the next time it's the KING who she just uttered a profane phrase about. But I agree that I felt some gratification seeing BJR unable to be his arrogant self and get belittled by the foppish French court.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:Instead of whinging on about how she has to ensure Frank's birth 'because he has done nothing wrong in all of this', why the fuck doesn't she state the obvious, which is, "Frank has to be born so that we can be married, go on honeymoon to Inverness, and enable me to be at the Stones to come to you, without him none of US happens!" duh. Duh. DUH. D.U.H.
Ex.Act.ly! Clearly those baby hormones are doing a job on Claire's ability to think. That whole scene made me want to walk away. Jamie seems to be able to explain himself clearly, but Claire is having serious problems doing the same. AND she leans into the honour argument by pointing out she has saved him and he now owes her. And further he is to pay this debt to save that OTHER man in Claire's life.
The other thing that comes clear to me in that exchange is the Claire has too much that she keep hidden from Jamie. She keeps secret things he should know and shares things he can't do anything about. SHE makes decisions about what he can handle—much like Frank's treatment of HER when we first met them.
Jamie, on the other hand, seems to be straight with her. Factually and emotionally.
7 hours ago, gingerella said:The Duke is shady as hell and will turn on anyone at any time, so I'm already sensing he will fuck up Jamie's plans in some profound way
Well, we can probably look forward to the Duke having a decisive hand in the failure of the Rebellion! And messing with Jamie's mind in the process.
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On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, gingerella said:
In the opening visuals we see someone who appears to be sabotaging the carriage wheel, which I thought meant there would be an accident and Claire would lose the baby. Instead we get a suspected poisoning in public, which was set up with all the subtlety of a Road Runner/Wyle E. Coyote episode.
Wyle E Coyote! Very apt comparison regarding that villain. The carriage wheel sabotage effect seems to have happened off stage (as it were) because that's when the broken wheel happened that caused them to walk home. Not a precision plan, but somehow it worked. 🙄
On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, gingerella said:So all this talk of poison brings us to Master Raymond, who always seems so eager to help Claire <snip> ...when he takes Claire into his secret back room he makes mention about time travel and looks directly at her, and in that moment I tell myself, "AHA! This is the new Geillis for Claire!"
Why would he sell it to someone he doesn't even know, when he seemed to indicate he was sort of responsible about to whom he would sell during his previous convo with Claire?
Yes, I was thinking similar thoughts. He is a bit smarmy for me. Don't know what to make of him. But then Geillis was also hard to read. The main thing I like about the Apothecary is all the cool stuff he has! This has got to be clarified before the end of this season! 🤞
Good catch on that last point.
On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, gingerella said:The whole story line between Louise and BPC is ridiculous
And I could have lived without it. But the show has been known to make lemonade out of these bits of lemon before, so I'll bide my time to see if anything comes from having had to put up with it in this episode.
On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, gingerella said:I mean, if you're going to call an episode Le Dame Blanche and have ruffians run off in horror when they see it's Claire, then by god tell the viewers what it's all about please!
So much YES to this!!! Another "To Be Revealed"...
There was one anvil-like shot—just before the Dame Blanche hullabaloo—that focused on a large wine-coloured mark on the right hand of the rapist. Keep your eyes peeled for HIM in upcoming episodes. I'm wondering if that attack wasn't the work of the Compte as well? (see alternate theory below) He seemed very surprised to see Claire when she arrived at the dinner party. He recognized Jamie, so why else would he be surprised to see his wife? However, that could be a bit too straight forward a connection to make at this point. I keep having thoughts that the Compte will somehow turn out to be an ally. But there have been no indications this could be likely.
On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, gingerella said:Also, as soon as I see her running into the public area of the house and see Alex trying to hold her down my mind starts racing and all I can think of is this scenario - Mary becomes pregnant from the rape and:
Well it seems certain that what we assumed from the 1st time we saw Mary and Alex together is that Mary is sweet on Alex, not "Jonathan" Randal. And I had already wondered if Mary might have gotten pregnant by Alex but still ended up marrying BJR. This assault adds a whole other twist!
A third option regarding the assault on Mary is that BJR is behind it. He corresponds with his brother, who may have written to him about Mary. I mean, if it were just a random attack why wouldn't they try to assault Claire too? Because BJR hates his brother and he's evil like that? And he didn't know Claire would be with her? (which would explain why they didn't touch Claire in this scenario.)
On 3/31/2021 at 4:05 PM, gingerella said:the Duke oddly seemed rather disinterested in BPC and he made insulting comments about the Pope which BPC took personally, so the entire exchange was odd to me. IF the Duke has been corresponding with BPC and he is the one who sent the coded letter revealing the English supporters, then why act do disinterested because it seems unlikely the Duke has never met BPC if he's in this deep with a Stuart Rebellion. Makes no sense to me at all right now.
That really was strange. Perhaps the Duke is playing double agent? More so for the English than for the Scots?
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33 minutes ago, gingerella said:
If anyone has the fortitude to go back to the Wentworth scene where the prison warden gives Claire Jamie's personal effects, maybe they can see if the ring is in that box, along with the carved snake.
I'd checked that out after I posted above. Nothing. We only got a peek into a portion of the box of Jamie's things. It wasn't full.
- the snake, of course
- his clan pin/ brooch
- some twine or fishing line
- a knife barely visible under everything else
- 2 greyish coloured thingies that I couldn't figure out but wondered if the were for starting a fire
That's about it. Nothing round like a ring. It is a mystery where the Fraser ring came from—unless Murtagh was keeping it safe for Jamie from some time before? They didn't have time to pack anything it seemed. Just head for the boat and set sail.
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1 hour ago, gingerella said:
I do see Jamie wearing it on his right pinky finger IIRC, it is there.
In S02E01 it is cousin Jared who is shown wearing a ring like you've pictured on his pinky finger. It's about 47 minutes into the show (12 minute before the end). Jamie is not wearing any rings on his good hand and the other is still wrapped for healing.
But I caught a glimpse of a ring on Jamie's pinky in S02E02. It really was a glimpse. It was when the Letter of introduction to BPC from cousin Jared arrived—around 15 minutes into the episode. But then it appears more fully in the scene of first meeting with BPC in the brothel.
I doubt he wore it in S01. It would be too dangerous. Perhaps it was in the box of Jamie's keepsakes that Jenny asked Claire to give Jamie?
Thanks @gingerella for the heads-up of where to look.
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On 3/1/2021 at 11:46 PM, Camera One said:
I'm also hating the soap opera-ish Secrets and Lies, Jack Randall is Alive edition. fI'm assuming that's going to bring the return of these characters charging into situations with zero planning.
Ha ha. Whether soap opera-ish or Panto-ish—that reveal was never going to be well accepted.
And another snicker at the possible return of our beloved characters charging into situations with zero planning. Between boring rounds of chess playing and brothel visiting—or charging in? I'm hoping a third approach will be offered.
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8 hours ago, gingerella said:
I’m still baffled that Claire’s pregnancy is barely mentioned, it seems odd between these two people who have been through so such a short time, having a baby seems like it should be more of a big deal than the show is making it, it’s like an afterthought right now
Except for Jamie using it as an excuse to be upset with Claire—for completely unrelated reasons—I wasn't expecting 18th century husbands to talk about their possible off spring except in private bedroom moments. And that only if the marriage is as close as C & J's. BUT we learn that bedroom encounters were not currently happening so...
I did notice that Claire walked around the house with her dressing gown open and I could recognize a baby bump. That was good enough for me. Of course Jamie is aware of the many negative outcomes of pregnancy in his "time" and is probably relieved that he hasn't got time to worry about them. What Claire knows about pregnancy—except as a medical professional—seems to have come from Jenny whose view is to just get on with things. 'Nuff said.
What I found interesting is the juxtaposition of the male POV on women's role as a wife between 1744 and 1945. I didn't see much difference. Both men express their concerns—which I accept as appropriate—by trying to control what the woman can do—which I don't find acceptable in my time. In Jamie's time he is cornered into being the one who is actually able to step into the political world they both agree is the means to achieve their ends. Frank's world is still skewed towards men being the ones to be active in the world, but even he would be aware that women are doing things that were unthinkable—in genteeler circles—the generation before him. Both act as if it is their role to tell the woman what to do. Happily Claire just does what she needs to do—even if it conveniently assists her and Jamie's cause.
I took the reappearance of newly-formed-enemy The Priggish Comte as an omen of impending conflict, but if he ends up on BJR's team I'll be right pissed off! I'll just hope for a shocking! twist! in that guy's storyline. At least until I view the next episodes.
And what is with Claire acting as though every herbalist is going to be her bosom friend? First Geillis and now French-Apothecary-Guy? It may be true that he's savvy enough to butter up the rich patrons, but what if he's doing the same with Claire? I want to like him, but I'd rather his assistant turns out to be Claire's real ally.
I liked that we got a new character in the form of
Oliver "Fergus"Twist. It explains that weird scene where Jamie randomly searches for his carved snake and discovers it's missing! The snake Claire passed on to him from Jenny at Lallybroch. But then goes on to mansplain what it is to Claire? Lots of eyerolling from me during that scene. As soon as we were shown the boy engaged in pickpocketing I knew where the snake had gone. Score 1 for me! (that gives me a whopping total of 1 on my scoreboard now). I'm planning on enjoying his role in this story. 🤞I also looked a bit side-eyed at the decoding and chess abilities of our lovely Jamie—but I'll take it over what we were served last season.
10 hours ago, gingerella said:The one bright spot for me was seeing Murtagh get some good, good lovin’! And it was sort of endearing that Claire was trying to help him by getting protection for her maid.
I'm totally in favour of the gradual unfolding of Murtagh as a fully fledged character. Loved that he started as an enigma who was clearly on Jamie's side. Loved learning how this bond came to be. Loved the bond that formed between Claire and Murtagh.
This episode they were both sidelined to Jamie's manic pursuit of the wacky-plan-to-change-history. Both wanting to do something useful... And they got to. Thanks show.
9 hours ago, gingerella said:The whole reveal that Mary is destined to be BJRs wife, didn’t surprise me that much, I mean it did and it didn’t. I figured at some point Claire would run into something like this but I wasn’t sure if BJR was a direct descendant of Frank’s or a distant relative, and I thought Jonathan was his brother because he’s called Jack
Jeez. Until I read that I was happily thinking that the charming Randal Brother was young Mary's target. Does that mean he is an intermediary? What will Mary think when she learns what Englishmen do to women? Or will Mary become to BJR what Claire is to Frank? (don't think so)
Does that mean BJR might come to France? No. no. no. no. no. no. no.
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30 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:
I did not care for the red dress
How about the red shoes? ! I thought they were worth a second look. 😁
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29 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:
Now that the war is over, and Frank is talking of settling down and having a family, that has to give Claire some pause. This is a life she has never had. Does she want something like this? Can she happily live like this?
And this has me remembering the beginning of S01E01. Claire looking into the shop window at the beautiful blue vase—knowing that part of her wanted a place/ home of her own—and then going on to wonder what would have happened in her life if she had bought that vase—and the life path that went with it (in voice over).
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**EDITED MAR 28, 2021 TO CORRECT HAZY OR INACCURATE DATES**
Time frames: from info gleaned from last Season and the start of the 1st episode this season. (because I just started pondering this issue.)
**Marriage of Frank and Claire: They got married near the start of WW ll which was Sept 1, 1939 and didn't see each other for 5 years.
May 8, 1945—VE Day— Claire was still in France. I must assume it might have taken months—or more—for her to be de-mobbed and return to England and meet up with Frank again. I don't have much experience on how those steps occur.
**October 30, 1945: 2nd honeymoon in Inverness and Claire's unscheduled trip to the 1700s. Confirmed by Frank's signing the register at the Inn in Inverness.
1743 (probably October?)—when Claire arrives at the other side of the stone. A couple of years before the date she stood in front of the stone her time.
1744 when Jamie and Claire land in France.
Battle of Culloden: 16 April 1746
Claire returns to her time: 1948
It seem to me that the force that moves Claire from one time to another may be somewhat... elastic. I'd been thinking the stones moved her from one date in the 1900s to the equivalent day in the 1700s, but it doesn't look like that is the case.
Wouldn't she know if Jamie had died at Culloden if she LEFT the 1700s in 1748? Seemed like she left—possibly in a great hurry—before that pivotal battle. Who's winding the gears and how are the dates determined? Are we to be on the look out for some divine intervention in this version of Time Travel? Or is this all random?
I do hope the show starts giving us more information regarding how the Stones work. (don't need answers now)
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6 hours ago, gingerella said:
I wondered if Claire really remembered his death date or made it up to freak him out because it did seem like she knew his birth date from the look on his face. That said, if she did know his death date then surely she already knew he wasn't really dead, yet she acted like it was a shock to her at the party where she found out.
Yep. That's when I knew we'd been had and that she added the hour of his death just to freak him out.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:Speaking of France, the French are portrayed as so vapid and vacuous compared to the salt of the earth Scots, aren't they? It couldn't be more of a contradiction of social mores if it tried.
But then, in Scotland all we'd seen of the upper classes was Lord SmirklyFace and the military idjits that bought their status in the Army. The apothecary and his assistant in France seem to be the closest we've seen to middle class French people. The lifestyle of the Court—among many other systems that treated the salt of the earth folk more like dirt than salt—was why those common folks rebelled almost half a century later.
6 hours ago, gingerella said:When Claire first steps out to go to the chemist her hat looks far too 1940s/50s to me and that confused me greatly. As did her short red gown, and it further confused me that Jamie was so taken aback at the front being lower cut given that her initial dresses from the House of Mrs. Fitz Couture had her breasts bulging over her neckline.
That is true about the hat, but there are illustrations of slightly similar hats if you google 1700 fashion, France. What is strikingly different is that Claire was not wearing a wig—nor were Jamie and Murtagh—but the illustrations from that time indicate a wig was a standard part of a woman's apparel. There are also illustrations of dresses that short, but they all seem to be designed to emulate shepherdesses. I expect liberties were taken by the show. And those red shoes certainly deserved to be seen!
6 hours ago, gingerella said:I hope he meets a demise shortly because he is not to be trusted.
So, you weren't in favour of Jamie and Claire stopping Murtagh from making it sooner? 🤣🤣🤣
7 hours ago, gingerella said:I did laugh when Murtagh called Rupert and Angus "Fatty and Big head" or whatever it was he called them
"Lard bucket and Big head". Yes. Much more descriptive than my nickname attempt.
And I loved when Jamie says: Is your longing for home worth the murder of a prince and The King? No, for all we know, the death of his son would make James even more determined to sit on the English throne.
And Murtagh replies: I talk of action and YOU give me logic.
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20 hours ago, gingerella said:
Something that's been bothering me about Frank - well let's be honest, everything about him bothers me - but I can only surmise that his clench-fisted violent outburst towards Claire was meant as a clear parallel to show viewers that 'it runs in the family', and yet Claire stays with him despite what she knows of his ancestor. Again, this Claire doesn't feel at all like vibrant, fully alive Claire whom we know when she's with Jamie. The whole dichotomy of who Claire is with Jamie vs. Frank is shockingly different IMO. A woman who dims her light for one man because his ego is more important than his wife, and another man who allows his wife to shine even when he doesn't agree with what she's doing.
Not surprisingly, I have a different takeaway from the scene where Frank has his clench-fisted violent outburst. The fact that Frank has a breaking point does not make him like BJR. It makes him like many, many other men. The fact that he can stop himself from taking out his anger at that—that another man gave HIS WIFE something he could not but dearly wanted to—and leave her to take his anger else where? That is not BJR levels of crazy. He is not enjoying those emotions. He fought against feeling them after she "left "—when all around him encouraged him to believe that he had a right to feel them.
When I think back to the scenes we were shown of Frank and Claire's wedding? I now see it from Frank's point of view. He was doing something spontaneous—perhaps wild and uncalculated—something that most people who knew him would never suspect he had in him. Something that was deeply meaningful to him. From where we are now in this saga it seems clear to me that he loved Claire much more than she loved him. She was delighted with his spontaneous impulse and enjoyed participating in it. But I can't help but think that if they weren't in the middle of a war? She would have wanted some time to consider his proposal.
He wanted to be with her forever, from that moment on. She was thinking of other things she wanted to do—like do her part in the life changing event that was WW ll. She would not have been the only woman who mistook the urgency of the times for love.
We have only seen a small bit of what formed Claire as a child—and nothing of what formed Frank. All we've been told is that Claire thought Frank would have wanted to please his family and have a big traditional wedding. And that she wasn't sure they would approve of her. I suspect Frank wanted to marry Claire so badly that he wasn't going to LET his parents have a say.
I saw how he dealt with being overwhelmed by anger as the show giving us how different he was from his ancestor. I don't believe that the choices BJR made in his time can be replicated by heredity. They spring from life circumstances. Frank, in 1943, doesn't have the level of power over others that BJR had nor have we seen that he revels in subjugating others. Not even Claire—even though he doesn't pay much attention to her thoughts or what she wants from a marriage. She, for her part, is trying to be be the kind of wife she is expected to be in that time—by the society she lives in. Frank is part of that society and believes that is how a good marriage works. There are close to 80 years of changes coming!
Frank can be said to be like an ancestor in his stubbornness, in being quick to anger and other things like that, but not that he must act the same way or do the same things as an ancestor. What the show is missing right now is who Frank was before Claire and therefore what motivates his action.
So that is my defence of what we have seen so far. But the show has given me something to watch for in Frank going forward. It has made it clear since Season One that Claire is THE one for Frank. He repeats multiple times—as he responds to Claire's story—that all he cares about is that she is back. That is ALL he cares about, nothing else.
What he learned from her story was that she didn't choose to leave him. We've seen him become jealous of an unknown man looking up at her window. He says that he doesn't understand Claire's feelings for another man, nor how (a man, him) could understand them. And when she tells him about the baby he is so past her being gone from him for x number of years—that he first reacts as though she's just come home from the doctor.
Claires sees that he is trying to be supportive and understanding but she knows his academic, rational brain and SHE believes that he cannot really accept her explanation, but will see it as her trying to make HIM leave her. I think that is what she IS trying to do. That way she is not betraying the one she has come to love unconditionally. The one she left behind in the past because HE asked it of her. So she played her last card—that she is carrying Jamie's child—and encountered a side of Frank she had not seen before. Of course she was shaken. She'd been through a lot of dangerous situations created by a man who looked just like Frank.
My fear is that this story wants me to believe that BJR's obsessions have come down through time to Frank and I'm not going to like it if that proves true.
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They got me hook, line and sinker with the old Christmas Panto ploy:
Claire- Black Jack Randal is dead.
Charming Randal Brother- OH NO HE’S NOT!
Dead fish Me- ...but ...but ...but
And the moral of the story, children, is that if the show doesn’t provide a flashback of Frank and Reverend Wakefield talking about it? Claire is lying to us about Black Jack Randal’s death!
I don’t remember anything else. Oh. Except:
Murtagh was Magnificent!
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4 hours ago, Pallas said:
It also established that (at least for now!), the outcome at Culloden wasn't going to diverge from our reality, and we can assume that the outcome for the Highlands was no better. I love that as a deliberate sacrifice of one kind of suspense ("Will/can Claire and Jamie stop a doomed uprising, or change its result?") for another, more poignant. What did this fateful uprising look like from the inside, and how will it play out among the characters that we've come to care about, too. It also parted Claire and Jamie by centuries, after 2-3 years. This makes their every scene together now more precious, and raised the stakes in a way that we can more easily empathize with. Few of us have halted an insurgency. Everyone has lost someone, and lived past a dream.
Yes! I figured out—on my rewatch—that the opening scenes in "year-of-our-Lord-nineteen-hundred-and-forty-eight" told us that the Scots lost the battle of Culloden and that the plot to derail the rebellion failed or was abandoned. It also told us that Claire believes that Jamie was at that battle—and must have been killed. It really does make this season more dynamic, more unexpected. And I am looking forward to a glimpse of how the fateful uprising looked from the inside—and to seeing Jamie turn away from deceptive plots! (I guess THAT is the romantic in me. Everyone else can be messily human—except the protagonist!) I may need to work on that.
2 hours ago, SassAndSnacks said:I love how half way through, we see her come to life again as she walks down the gangplank and Jamie reaches to her.
Yes to this. That scene where she is withdrawn and hesitant to step into her new life in Boston! The camera pans to the hand outstretched to her; then her face lightens up more and more—and she steps into Jamie's embrace and her new life in France. Great segue.
1 hour ago, gingerella said:I cannot bear to look at Frank because I just see BJR, I don't know how on earth Claire can stomach looking at him now.
But Claire does know that Frank is not BJR as much as she knew that BJR was not Frank. The uncanny resemblance is off putting but she has many positive memories of Frank. The initial recoil that I appreciated the show giving her can be overcome. Just as Jamie is overcoming the images that BJR put in his head. Neither of those images are about the person in front of them.
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I just had a quick scan at the start of E01 and noticed that is where the ring first appears in this episode. Claire is in Voice Over mode and looks first at Frank's ring (sly bit of visual deception, there, given the words in the voice over at that moment) and then at Jamie's. Then she starts to look a bit panicked and pat that piece of her dress that slides behind the front lacings. Apparently nothing is there. So she start searching the grass around her and finds the empty ring. Her eyes scan the grass some more but she sees nothing. Then she seems to give up, screams to the heavens and walks away from the stones looking despondent and empty. Maybe we haven't seen that ring before and I just forgot between this scene and the next time it appears.
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2 hours ago, gingerella said:
One thing puzzling me, what was the ring Claire was looking for and found when she woke up at the Stones? We've never seen that ring before have we? I thought she was looking for the pearls but then it was a ring with the center missing. I know a fair bit about antique jewelry and a cursory search confirmed that Jacobite rings, worn covertly, sometimes held a portrait of BPC, which would have fit into that setting Claire picks up. Also, bonafide Jacobite couriers wore an emerald cabochon ring to signify that they were legitimate couriers of the movement. Again, that could have also fit in there. I was hoping it was a signet ring with the Fraser crest and motto, which also could have been carved into hardstone and mounted in that setting. I'm curious what the missing piece is and I hope we see it at some point.
This. I was wondering about this as well. Thanks for the info on it's possible relation to the Jacobite rebellion and BPC.
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11 minutes ago, gingerella said:
ETA: Murtagh was looking very well groomed in France, was he not?!?
Yes! Not just his hair. His face is less red and rough. There must be better bathing facilities in France. Not that I think Murtagh would take to them like a duck. ;-)
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Well. That was an interesting way to start! Jump forward to Claire's world and AFTER the battle of Culloden so that we are all—characters and viewers alike—flailing around without a clue. OK. We just have to ride that wave.
I was pleased that the show gave Frank a chance to be different from BJR as a person. I felt a great deal of compassion for his struggle. He's a man of dry logic. Not a naturally empathetic being. But I believe that he loves Claire with all his heart—and in his own way.
I appreciated that the show allowed Claire to recoil from Frank's attempt to touch her because she sees BJR's face.
But Frank has drawn HIS line in the sand. He will not share his wife with another man! Given that Mrs. Graham saw parallel marriage lines in Claire's palm I think this has to come up again. How will Frank handle it then? (just musing, not asking)
Frank knows Claire's baby cannot be his, but he admits to a brief feeling of joy that it might be—before the facts fell like bricks. I think he is both willing to believe Claire and skeptical at the same time. It's a lot for him to take in all at once.
Then—Oh Dear! Frank asked Claire to promise him that she would let Jamie go. But Claire agreed because she promised Jamie that she would let him go. Not the capitualation Frank was looking for. After that—matching tears roll down their cheeks while in embrace. But Frank's were because she was back and Claire's were for letting Jamie go. And Damn. Frank tells her to keep Jamie's ring “until you're ready”. That was Frank—perhaps at his giving-est.
After Frank has heard Claire's story. And told her that he believes her, she asks him to deal with her clothes from that time. Reverend Wakefield has told him that they have been confirmed as authentic from the 18th century and are very valuable. But to Frank they are a painful reminder that he has been cuckolded. He tries to think of himself as someone who can rise above that. He's said it both last season and this season. But he want no reminder around him—no matter how valuable they are to others. I'm thinking that was Claire's way returning his gesture regarding Jamie's ring. He can destroy everything else from that time.
But I'm missing something. Have we seen that other ring Claire had with her before? The one that was missing a stone? If it was last season it is OK to let me know what episode. I'll look it up. Then I might get a hint at it means. If not? I guess the show will let us know at some point.
Lovely segue to the plane trip and that final step... into a new world. Of course my mind—along with Claire's— flew to Jamie's curiosity about flying when she told him about it. At least—in the second half of this episode— we get to go back to where we left off last Season. And once I saw Mutagh's there? All became right in my world.
We have our first half/ second half parallel early. We see Jamie recoil when Claire reaches to touch him and he sees BJR's face. But he can tell Claire why where she could not tell Frank why.
Claire's insistance on stopping the Battle of Culloden. It's like she's taken on Geillis' cause in a warped way. Geillis wanted the Scotts to win. Claire just want the battle not to happen—most likely leaving the status quo which she sees as being better than what did happen. Not that Geillis would agree with her, but at least Claire now has a “cause”. The Geillis effect.
I'm worried that Claire is leading Jamie away from his true nature with this plan of deception. He even mentions that it is not a very honourable path she's laying out for them. But it looks like he will do anything for her. I don't like the sound of that. And Murtagh, the mighty Murtagh. He knows there's a lot more to this crazy deception than they are telling him.
And we end with the appearance of smallpox again and a new powerful enemy for a new land and a new season. Tally Ho.
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On 3/9/2021 at 12:42 AM, auchic said:
Poor George, waiting in that restaurant for so long! And they charged him for water!
That was my 1st response too. But I think that might have been a wink at today's norms. I've been to restaurants that require a minimum purchase once you are seated. If you are told that when you come you might actually order something in case you, too, are stood up. I suppose George's restaurant assumed that if you could afford their prices you would already know about their policy. 😉
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😊 I am more than good with different opinions on characters. We all come from different places. If we all felt the same these threads would be very boring. I love getting other peoples perspectives.
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I only read the responses from the start of the show in the Episode 1 thread. Didn't have time to read back in most other episode threads. But I think it was in the Ep 01 thread that I encountered a link to a blog by a woman who was studying Gaelic and putting up translations of some of the Gaelic phrases used in the show. She had a number of people helping and providing better translations—one of whom was a professor of Gaelic in Scotland who was the person who taught the actors proper pronunciation and advised the show on the Gaelic dialog.
Anyway, there was quite a bit of Gaelic dialog in this episode and it provided information about what was said that I-for-one appreciated knowing.
I'm posting a link to the page of the blog that deals with this episode. Click on it or not. It's your choice.
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S02.E07: Faith
in Outlander
I'm going to be careful going forward. I was starting to like Claire at the beginning and felt betrayed by the show until this point. I even tried to blame hormones for the way Claire was acting in Paris (being bossy to the staff, completely oblivious to her husband's openness to her and definitely unwilling—or so it appeared—to give him an inch of understanding). But why the show gave her that drastic personality swap is a mystery to me.
I am hesitantly willing for Claire to make mistakes in the future, just not personality changing ones.
Yeah. I imagined a scene where we were told/shown this as the reason he recovered so quickly so I could move on.
So well put. I also harkened back to this exchange she had with the Priest:
Mere Hildegarde: This is Father Laurentin. It is customary to perform an unction of the sick, my child. It has been several days now. Your fever is very high. It is wise to prepare the soul.
Claire: I need my husband.
Mere Hildegarde: I'm sorry, ma chère, there has been no word.
Claire: My sins are all I have left.
So poignant.
Thank you for all you shared in this and I agree with what @Pallas said of your previous paragraph. It was these scenes that allowed me to forgive Claire as well—and to finally breath again.