stillshimpy
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36 minutes ago, MadMouse said:
Varys in the books is more than likely a Blackfyre loyalist.
We have no idea what either Lyanna or Rhaegar knew about was happening in the Kingdom.
We know that they knew enough to be secretly married. We know that Rhaegar knew enough to leave his Kings Guard at the Tower of Joy. We know Lyanna knew enough to understand that Robert would kill Jon if he understood who he was. We know that Lyanna knew Ned well enough to exact a death bed promise from him.
We know they weren't quite clueless enough to get away with the "who could have known" defense because they took enough precautions to suggest they had a good inkling and then pursued action to try and protect Lyanna from the rebellion. They knew about the rebellion.
Also, the idea that once the banners have been called...yeah, there's actually a lot of ways to walk that back. It's called a truce which the show just referenced. Ceasing hostilities is the way that is walked back.
But mostly, Robert wouldn't have wanted Lyanna had he known she spurned him actively. He might still have wanted to go to war, but he'd have been less likely to accomplish that if everyone was snickering behind their hands at his fit pique over being spurned. Robert's rebellion doesn't get very far without everyone else and it gets nowhere without roasted and strangled Starks. Plus, if the future King sets aside his wife in order to take your intended as his wife, in this story, you get a honking castle out of the deal at the very least. At least he might have been hot-potatoed Harrenheap.
I don't think anyone could blame Lyanna for not wanting to marry Robert because the books make it clear, he wasn't going to keep it at home once he tied that knot but she sure as hell would have to.
But get on a ship and cross the narrow sea, or tell your dad before you get him killed, or run away. She was young, but wow, way to swing from the heels on a catastrophic mistake.
And there will never be another Stark heir for Winterfell because of what Lyanna did. Jon is going to find out about all of this and frankly, it would be easier to think you were a product of rape than to know your parents were so selfish, they both got nearly all of their families murdered.
But I think we're also just experiencing why it's kind of a weak story overall.
There's no real way to excuse their behavior. I admit, and it must be obvious, I am not a person who is swayed by the concept of romance. But at sixteen I would have been because I saw things in more simplistic terms than I do now. Ye olde "The heart wants what the heart wants" (and yeah, that's Woody Allen's justification for fucking his girlfriend's underage adopted daughter) is more understandable in a teenage girl. It just doesn't make it any less heartless and dumb.
My concern within the story is how much this is going to impact Jon who really ought to wear "Betray me!" sign on his back because that's got to be how he feels kind of a lot but in this episode he made it so clear: He admired Ned Stark so much.
And if someone won't tell you who you are for the entirety of your life and you find out after their death? It's going to be really painful.
I mean, maybe the show will play it as "Wow, my Uncle was amazing!" because truly, Ned sacrificed left and right for his family but they had Dany and Jon go to the bone zone without this knowledge for a reason. So the "my dad is really my uncle...and I just fucked my aunt..." Poor Jon. Just freaking poor Jon.
I don't think it's going to help them to learn that Jon's parentage is so ridiculously complicated that half a kingdom died because of the relationship that produced him.
And it isn't likely to help that it's the one thing that Ned was willing to lie about because that just as easily will indicate shame to Jon.
The story has always set it up that Jon found it difficult to not have a name. It's this story so, of course, he's about to find out how much worse it could be to have one.
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9 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:
He's not though. He seems to be on the surface, but Varys is an agent of chaos. He contributed even more to Aerys's paranoia of his son, he somehow managed to convince the man to leave the Red Keep after he sat there for years and go to the tourney of Harrenhal. He undermined whatever plans he had set in motion. He didn't want Aerys to open the gates to Tywin because he was smart enough to know that Tywin wasn't coming to save King's Landing once Rhaegar had died on the Trident.
Varys was planning on having Viserys arrive in Westeros at the head of 40,000 Dothraki screamers. We know what the Dothraki do when they sack villages. They pillage, rape and enslave. No one in the Seven Kingdoms would ever support Viserys's claim to the throne after this. Varys isn't looking to support a Targaryen restoration, he is looking to use it to put someone on the throne and rule through them.
On the show he's a Targaryen loyalist, but that's because they shredded his story when they got rid of the Aegon plot.
Because they needed the name for Jon.
He's with Aegon in the books and claims to be a Targ supporter, isn't he? Varys planned on having Viserys arrive with the Dothraki horde to restore a Targaryen to the throne.
Also, if Varys doesn't make the announcement like he's supposed to, you just find someone who will.
I don't think the show stands a prayer of covering much of this, and I kind of assumed they don't wish to because it's really convoluted even with what we do know.
As it pertains to the characters now, it's so much freaking worse for Jon because whereas Sansa and Arya, for the sake of alotted time, are really likely to say, "Well, you're still family...? So, we still feel the same(ish) about you."
But again, poor fucking Jon.
It won't be quite the same level of mindscrew to Dany except for the "Uh, Jon's actually in line before you..." of it all. But also, most people would be kind of disturbed by accidentally having sex with a blood relative (really closely related one) even without any emotional incest. Dany might not freak because they practically flashed in the sky that she's going to get knocked up by the seeds from the family tree (barf) so she may view it as the penis that was promised?
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7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:
In that scenario, Lyanna gets disowned and the Starks and baratheons still call their banners. Brandon and Rickard still live but I believe the war still happens.
Or Jon Arryn arranges a different, equally advantageous marriage for Robert and there's no war.
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2 hours ago, blackwing said:
It's been a while since I read the books. I did recently within the last year or so read "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms" which was about Sir Duncan and his squire named Egg, who turned out to really be Aegon Targaryen. Someone please kindly remind me who he is in the house. I'm assuming he's Daenerys' grandfather or great-grandfather?
If Jon's real name is Aegon Targaryen and he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, then he just slept with his hot aunt. Although I guess this is a world in which brother and sister sleep with each other, so maybe it's not as icky as I had first thought when I was watching.
Someone also kindly remind me, since it's been years since I read the latest book, I vaguely remember that there was a character named Aegon that claimed to be the son of Rhaegar and his wife, Elia of Dorne. I think he was presumed dead but is now an adult? It seems like this character is absent from the show, at least for now?
He's referred to as (f)Aegon, he's not in the show and he's alive in the books. He's in the company of Varys and Tyrion at present with John Connington (I think that's the name) who likely has grey scale and was also in love with Rhaegar.
43 minutes ago, Tikichick said:But we also have to remember that Ned spent many of his formative years away from WF. Things may have gone on that he was either unaware of, or didn't loom large in his view because he wasn't there to witness them.
Doesn't quite work because apparently Robert and Lyanna knew one another, so they weren't entirely isolated at the Eyrie. Robert and Ned were raised at the Eyrie by Jon Arryn so Ned did spend time away from home but he also started out at home. He knew his brother, he knew his sister (who really imposed on him a lot) , he knew his father.
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13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:
I'm not so sure he did. My likeliest wildcard in the whole scenario is Varys -- who also happens to be fairly uselessly hanging around on the show.
Varys in the books is a Targaryen loyalist, so that doesn't track. In the show, he's the "I serve the people, someone must" guy. Wars don't serve anyone.
21 minutes ago, MadMouse said:But the thought of poor innocent Lyanna doing something even remotely similar, madness I tell you. Lyanna might have been stupid and impulsive but she was braver than 99% of the characters in the story.
There's nothing brave about hiding in a tower while the world burns around you. Brave would have been facing the people who loved her and telling them to get soaked.
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36 minutes ago, mac123x said:
To be a little bit fair to the silver-haired freaks, prior to the Doom, there was a lot larger pool of Blood-of-the-Dragon types available in Valyria. The Targ-on-Targ incest didn't really kick in as heavily until their other options were more limited (mostly the Valeryons of Driftmark and some Lyseni).
Cersei, in defense of her relationship with Jaime, said to Ned, "The Targaryens married brother to sister for thousands of years." So the royal Targaryen line was extra troubled by inbreeding.
Argh. On so many levels, this is just a tragic story.
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37 minutes ago, Oscirus said:
Considering the way she grew up and what she was allowed to do in public , I doubt that she was bought up in a household where she was mentally or physically abused. The only reason why they hid was to stop the Starks from stopping the wedding until it was too late ( her having a baby). That it occurred to neither of them that people would assume she was kidnapped and react accordingly, or that Brandon was a hothead who damn there got himself in trouble at that tournament or even that his father was insane is a bit appalling. Especially given that Rhaegar was slated to rule the country in the near future.
I'm just conceding that there's a possibility that Lyanna's motives were less entirely self-involved, I think we know that she wasn't abused or that it is very unlikely.
Mostly, I care solely because these are questions Jon is now being set up to ask of Deadpan Bran.
The worst of it is that he'll feel betrayed by Ned long before he ever gets around to "Wow, did you ever pull one over on the Kingdoms!" because truthfully, Ned did betray Jon by letting him join the Night's Watch without giving him even the tiniest hint that there were reasons not to.
What Ned did was very self-sacrificing and honored his sister's memory but it is also the reason Catelyn was such an ass to him. It's also the reason he grew up feeling worthless.
Now, it's set up to be the reason that he projectile vomits when he finds out who he just fucked. I don't believe Jon would have made that choice had he possessed that information, so he was just betrayed on an emotional level again by the secret keepers of the kingdoms.
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16 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:
Or you're terrified about something. There had to be a reason why Lyanna would keep her wedding a secret from her own family. I doubt that Rhaeger would bother since as crown prince, there was a lot he could get away with. But I get the feeling that there was something going on that was bad enough for Lyanna to flee not just her unwanted betrothed, Robert, but her family as well.
I concede that point readily. Brandon Stark in the books is such a butt munch that I bet he was a treat to grow up with and Rickard Stark was apparently not above social climbing and power grasping.
But in the first book, Ned has a lot of POV chapters and never once is it hinted at that there was anything untoward at home, so she may have been fleeing a pack of jackasses but that doesn't absolve her of anything that occurred afterward.
I completely get not wanting to marry Robert. His entire grief response suggested that he viewed her as a possession. Maybe Rhaegar didn't.
But wow, a lot of people paid dearly and we know a lot of those people didn't deserve those fates. Did Ned deserve the chill fest he arrived home to that stretched into years and was the reason that Jon was emotionally abused by Catelyn?
If you're scared, sure get to safety. She went from whatever fire into an inferno of her own making. She died for it, but among the undeserving, I've no reason to count her among them yet.
That could be a yet, in the books, but on the screen? Whoa. So there's no "or" on that, there's a possible "and" to my mind but her problem solving skills were atrocious.
Again, I say with feeling, that last scene was so sad to me because against all odds, Jon put his life together in a shape that made sense to him and he literally cried and died for it.
Here comes wrecking ball Lyanna.
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6 minutes ago, screamin said:
FWIW, considering all the people that appear to have been involved in Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding (including the motherfucking pope of Westeros who went all the way to Dorne to tie the knot, with all the entourage such a move likely entails) it seems to me that the only reason no one knew of the wedding was because the protagonists deliberately didn't want it known, swearing everyone from the pope on down to secrecy.
That supports my point, @screamin , doesn't it? If you're engaged in a relationship that has to be kept secret, you know you're up to something slimy.
Plus, again, comparisons to Arya because of the Laughing Tree have validity but there are comparisons to Sansa that are more apt and that the story on TV has illustrated too: Sansa gets a forest's worth of poison oak rashes for believing in silly stories even when faced with the wackadoo reality of Joffrey.
Lyanna Stark got her father cooked alive while her brother strangled to death trying to save him.
She sacrificed actual people who loved her and died asking for more favors, all so that she could be married to the King?
Oy. History is apparently cyclical.
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32 minutes ago, Tikichick said:
Who says he kept it a secret? There is still the possibility that certain people acted to keep things quiet for their own purposes that are not understood as of yet. Everyone is so quick to attack Rhaegar and Lyanna, yet the story isn't really fleshed out yet.
LF appears to be unlikely at this point, but we still have Varys on the screen for quite unknown reasons thus far. We know Robert Barratheon was quite obsessed with Lyanna, so much that it tormented him all of his days. We also notably still have Gendry in the mix, quite improbably after quite a long hiatus -- and we stopped for his onscreen introduction to Jon (which the show isn't focused on in this hurry up, we're almost out of here season) and a significant history with the Stark daughter who looks quite like Lyanna. What kind of details might pop out if someone utters the right search terms in front of google Bran? What if Howland Reed does show up after all?
I take your point but if that's the case, everyone who attempted to keep the secret died because of it.
So, I get what you're saying, but I think Cersei Lannister, in particular, would have thrown that little tidbit into tons of people's faces if she could have.
But it's possible that people like Jon Arryn knew and took the secret to the grave. Brandon Stark and his father (Rickard, right?) didn't though. They went to the capital to ask for her back and got killed because of it.
I know I judge the two of them harshly for that because give a heads up or go the fuck home once you've found out what you've done. That's the part that makes the damned for all time: Instead of hauling womb home, Lyanna Stark stayed with Rhaegar.
And by the way, had the fucking nerve to task her poor fucking brother with hiding Jon...so yeah, there's some indication that they kept it a secret. Whispers on death beds, "Robert would kill him..." Even within the story, Lyanna (who my GOD...died smiling like she'd done something great, at least in the show) was engaging in still more family ruining. "Promise me...Ned..." We already know, she knew.
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32 minutes ago, screamin said:
But Dany knew all along (at least in the books) that her mother DID die because of what Rhaegar did - and she still romanticized him. I don't remember her exact words, but she thought that while Rhaegar was conceivably overstepping a few boundaries in seizing the Northern girl, she thought of it as an act of love and IIRC even thought that no woman could have resisted such magnificence swooping down on her. From poor Danaerys' history, it's understandable she'd romanticize rape, to a degree, since her first marriage started that way. And she was always told wonderful things about Rhaegar, so her finding out that he DIDN'T rape Lyanna can only improve her view of Rhaegar.
When the story starts, Dany's little better than a child. She didn't understand that her father was a madman who needed to die. We actually don't know much about what Dany was told, but we know that she was told the Targaryen loyalist version.
Again, Sansa is practically dragged through the streets for being a silly girl with romantic notions. Dany's worldview has had to expand from the time that she thought about The Usurper's Dogs but her initial view on the matter is ludicrously self-entitled in the manner of a very young adolescent. It was also conveyed to her by someone who was so nuts, watching his brain melt was about the only way to feel safe from him.
This past season we watched her admit that her father was evil. She's about to find out Bro wasn't far behind.
Dany thought that before she was the woman being treated as the bone to be won in a dog contest, so there's that too. She's had a lot of real world experience with people trying to put her in the position she thought Lyanna Stark was in...she didn't like it. I can't see that getting better with the knowledge that they loved each other. Dany has had to sacrifice her own personal happiness for the greater good, her sympathy for Rhaegar is likely to be trumped by the inclusion of what would pass for empathy...only Dany keeps passing the tests Rhaegar failed.
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24 minutes ago, screamin said:
. The Egyptians and, I think, other royal dynasties allowed sibling incest but drew the line at parental incest as too much, and I don't think there is even ONE culture in the world that condones it.
The other thing about that is the Targaryens have been practicing incest for hundreds of years (I'm being kind, I know that it is supposed to be thousands) but the Egyptians are the only real world parallel and good grief, you do not want to delve too deeply into what that yielded. One of the last pharaohs from the "woooo...more incest....we think it makes us godly!" line had, and I'm not shitting you, a club foot, a cleft palate and a curved spine (as well as some incidental madness).
From what was described with the Targaryens, it's a miracle they weren't just spawning cuttlefish by the end of that crap and Dany is very much from the "Oh good, at least it wasn't a cuttlefish" side of the Targs.
GRRM sucks at research. Tryion and his circus antics in the first book are not the only proof of that, he obviously did not look very deeply into what the incestuous practices in the royal Egypt line yielded but they are the reason that incest was so frowned on when he decided to go down this path.
Thank goodness there are only six episode left and enough action going on that they can't dwell on this but the behind the scenes stuff pretty clearly indicates that the characters involved are unlikely to celebrate this.
Also, even non-emotive Bran looked like he was in the past, trying not to blow spectral chunks while watching that.
If Sansa had done what Lyanna did, people would have lost their minds to fury. That's the part that struck me: Lyanna Stark is a combination of Sansa and Arya. Not "like Arya" she's just as much like Sansa.
A dream of pretty romance got her family killed.
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13 hours ago, magdalene said:
I feel bad for Jon. I just can't imagine him being thrilled at learning that he has been having sex with his aunt. He grew up as a Stark, in the North. While Dany comes from a totally different culture I am not convinced she will be okay with this either.
That's the thing, poor Jon is set to be handed this information with absolutely no one to give him any context other than Bran and to put it mildly, his empathy machine seems broken at the moment. "You looked so beautiful, being married off to that sadistic rapist, I consider this a compliment now. Hopefully, I won't feel the urge to compliment anyone again anytime soon."
So poor freaking Jon, whose first love was part of a con, tried to kill him, then died in front of him as she was trying to kill him some more (or at least faking it fairly well). Then he gets stabbed to death by his own men. Now he's going to find out that Ned lied to him his entire life and that basically, his only relationship that hasn't been altered by this will be with Benjen because at least Benjen is still his uncle.
Tad dead to offer any comfort but at least one thing wouldn't be wildly altered.
Now he's going to find out that because Ned took his secrets to the actual grave, he's boned his aunt. It's also kind of a big deal to Jon, who's only really had one brief sexual relationship.
I mean, jeez, somebody better get on inventing the shower in Westerosi because ye olde shower o' shame is his most likely reaction complete with wails, and rending of garments. Sincerely, who could blame him? Your whole life is a lie. Your dad, who this episode made clear is someone you greatly admire, is actually your Uncle. Then you find out that you've inadvertently gone to the bone zone with your Aunt.
That alone is a giant mind screw waiting to happen.
12 hours ago, tennisgurl said:You know, I might be rejoicing at the end of Littlefinger, but this episode also confirmed to me what I have long suspected, that this show had a few more master villains this whole time: Rhaegar and Lyana. Granted, we dont know the whole story here, and its possible that this was part of some plot by Rhaegar to create some kind of Fire and Ice Promised One kid to save the world, and that would make this all a little bit better, and they didnt seem as malicious as Littlefinger, BUT from what we see here, these two were self centered, uncaring assholes, especially for characters who the other characters have spoken highly of.
I mean, just about everyone we have met has talked about how wonderful Lyanna was, how sweet and strong and spunky she was, and her flashbacks as a kid seem to set her up as a kind of sweeter Arya 1.0, but when you look at the facts? She was put together with Robert as a political marriage, and Robert fell for her, but she fell for Rhaegar in all of his stringy haired glory, so what does she do? Why, run off with this stringy haired guy, letting her fiance and her beloved family think that she was kidnapped and raped, to marry a guy who is ALREADY MARRIED to a nice woman with two kids, while consenting to her boyfriend ditching his family and making his kids bastards, and screwing up an entire series of alliances that helps her whole country run. And she couldn't have just, I dont know, sent a freaking LETTER to Robert or her father and let them know what was up? It would have been a pain, considering he was married and she was engaged, but it would have been a better scenario than her dad and brother showing up to "rescue" her, and dying horribly, and starting a giant war that would leave countless people dead and the seeds that would lead to the War of the Five Kings. Granted, something might have happened anyway at some point, given the Mad King, but maybe he just would have died, and the whole thing could have just gone away? If Lyanna was so awesome, why was she ok with this? It sucks that she would have to marry a man she does not love, but its pretty standard for their culture, and if its "marry this frat boy I dont really like that much" or "start a war that leaves half my family and a huge swath of my people dead", I think the right answer is pretty freaking obvious. Did she know what happened to her father and brother at the hands of her father in law, who are new hubbies is still defending? Did she care?
But you know who was worse? Freaking Rhaegar, who was the asshole who ditched his poor sweet wife, left her and his kids alone with his crazy evil father to run off to marry his piece on the side, IN HIS WIFES HOMELAND, and deliberately annulled their marriage, making his kids bastards and utterly insulting and humiliating poor Elia. And because this wasn't enough, he hid what was really happened, letting his new wife's father and brother be murdered by his evil father, who he still supported despite knowing what a monster he was, and then went to war, which practically tore their country apart and cost the lives of countless innocent people, all because he was thinking with his dick. For a guy everyone (who isn't Robert) talks up as such a great guy, he comes off as a huge asshole in all of this, who didn't care about his responsibilities to his family and country, and just wanted his new, hotter wife. This guy is such a shitty excuse for a monarch, that even Edward VIII is judging him. If anything, all this makes me retroactively feel worse for Robert (who has mourned a woman who cheated on and dumped him for another guy for years) and Ned (who found out that not only is his beloved sister dead, but everything he fought for was a lie, if he knew the implications of what Lyanna said, which I assume he did), and made me think that Lyanna and Rhaegar really deserved each other. What assholes.
I do think its interesting that they seemed to parallel the wedding flashback with another terrible marital decision involving a Stark, with the wedding of Rob and Talisa, which I`m not sure what they are trying to say. Are they saying these are both romantic, star crossed lovers, or brainless idiots who threw away their responsibilities to their people to get some? Well, I know which side I am on. But, at least Rob was only engaged, and Talisa was single, and they did TRY to do damage control, as half assed as it was. Lyanna and Rhaegar just threw away their responsibilities to their families and people, and went to war, seemingly without caring about the huge cost to their country. Again, what assholes.
Yeah, this is why I cant say I have too much sympathy for these two selfish creeps. While arranged marriages might offend my modern sensibilities, this is how their culture works, and being a rich and powerful person in their world comes with perks as well as responsibilities, and one of those responsibilities is marrying for political gain. This is practical in this society, because it connects these families in time of war or other turbulence, and allows them to come together faster. Its just the way it is here. Granted, some of these matches are clearly awful (Sansa/Ramsey anyone?), but for the most part, this is just what happens, and everyone considers it to be normal. Ned and Cat were arranged, and would have certainly have arranged for marriages for all of their kids. We saw them do it with Sansa and Rob, and they were already promising Arya to some Frey guy to secure their alliance, and they would have done the same with the rest of the kids. If he didn't take the Black, they probably would have even arranged for Jon to marry a second or third daughter of a noble northern house or something, or married Theon to a northern girl to hold up a possible alliance with his people, and everyone knows this, this is just how it is. Everyone else sucks it up, so why couldn't they? They didn't even seem that unhappy with their matches (Elia was apparently perfectly nice, and Robert was apparently a decent guy in his youth), and they knew how important these alliances were. They just didn't care.
Yeah, I'm in agreement. It has no impact on Jon's right to be around as a human being nor should he be cursed because of the rather heartless union that produced him. What Rhaegar and Lyanna did redefined narcissism. Send.Fucking.Word. Good god. Brandon Stark was a complete shit in the books but the manner in which he died was horrific. The manner in which their father died was fucking horrific.
The people who died? Horrific. The whole thing? Fucking horrific and reprehensible. Ellia Martell ended up split in fucking two after being raped because of the pair of them.
So there's yet another "Oh man, you'd need seven gods to pray to in order to make peace with your parentage" aspect to the giant nut punt Jon Snow is about to undergo.
Dany's not going to be in much better shape. Look at her life and all she's been through. Thanks, Bro! Glad you got the girl? Fucker.
Also, she's just admitted this season that her father was a madman, she already knew that Viserys was a sadistic lunatic, he was just all she had (thanks to Rhaegar, knowledge to sink in 3...2...1) and now she's primed to find out that her brother got half the kingdom killed on behalf of his dong? Awesome.
I don't think she's going to be all "tis the Targ way!" when it's going to turn out that Targ way is the reason that she and Jon are the last of the line except for what he likely just bestowed on her. People trying to parse the genetics on that baby probably want to stop soon because it's not pretty. Dany's parents were very closely related and that's after generations of those practices. Yes, I remember Aegon's desperate quest to introduce new genes and would that he had succeeded better...but even within the story, the good Targs recognized "yeah, this is not a good idea..."
And Dany knows it leads to potential madness, finding out the Rhaegar is the reason her mother died is not likely to endear her to the idea. I was honestly kind of relieved to see the actors faux gagging because this is not a pairing that bears up to much romantic scrutiny.
Jon's existence, the relationship that produced him is the reason everyone he loved prior to this is dead...for the second generation running.
I really don't think this is a romance. Yes, it's different than Jaime and Cersei, but on a lot of levels, for the impact to the characters? It has a potential to be much worse because they will understand that Jon's parents are the reason for a lot death and destruction. I don't think that's going to cause the invention of the sonnet in Westeros.
10 hours ago, glowbug said:I'm pretty sure in the books (if they're ever released...not holding my breath) it will be revealed that Rhaegar took Lyanna as a second wife, which Targaryens did historically. The show probably went with the annulment explanation because Targaryen polygamy hasn't been established in the show and they didn't want to waste time explaining it. An annulment wouldn't require any explanation and it wouldn't feel like it came out of no where for non-book readers.
Yeah, when I started breaking it down, all the damage those two fuckers did, it stopped seeming quite so "Wow, that's ridiculously trite" because it's another trope inversion. The hidden prince and heir to the throne is likely going to want to peel his skin off when he finds out.
Poor freaking Jon and also, poor Dany, because if she is knocked up the only reason she wouldn't guzzle a VAT of "moon tea" is she'll know it's her only chance to produce a child...that she'll get to watch with both love and terror as constant companions because her gene pool just got worse. Wait until she finds out Rhaegar was at fault in that rebellion on a level she's never been told.
This isn't headed into Greek Tragedy waters, it's paddling there right now. Jon and Dany didn't do anything wrong, they don't know they are related. But my gods, did the show just set them up to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's next victims.
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4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:
Sansa actually implicitly offered her consent to Tyrion on their wedding night by starting to undress. She didn't want to do it, but I think she felt it was her duty. You can consent to things you don't want to do. You could argue that Tywin was, in a sense, trying to "rape" Tyrion. He put tremendous pressure on Tyrion to have sex with Sansa, and Tyrion put no pressure on Sansa.
In most of those arranged, political, marriages, it probably wouldn't be "rape" as much as the women either being fine with it, trying to make the best of it, or reluctantly doing their "duty".
Lyanna seemed to be a very free spirited, strong willed woman, so Robert might have actually had to rape her, as she might never have consented.
Already covered by another poster but that isn't consent. When you're forced to marry someone, consent is out of the window and it is out of the window and into the stratosphere for a 14-year-old hostage forced to marry the enemy of her family. But we've all been around this rather gross tree a million times.
4 hours ago, screamin said:AFAIK, Elizabeth I never actually went into battle, though she made great speeches to the troops, and history recognizes her as a competent queen. I think Sansa, due to the politician position, single status and red hair, might be intended as a deliberate parallel.
You're correct, Elizabeth I never went into battle. Henry VIII was the last monarch of England to ride into battle at all.
2 hours ago, Haleth said:I miss Wyman Manderly.
The North is so remote they've pretty much been left to their own devices in the past. Bend the knee or not, Dany isn't likely to interfere in the business of the Northern lords once the fighting ends.
I miss the noble fat man mightily. I've been so upset that they divvied up his awesomeness between Arya and Lady Mormont. It would have added a great deal to show someone who took a freaking oath seriously.
1 hour ago, Pogojoco said:I was creeped out. At least with Jaime and Cersei, they know what they are to each other. This is creepy.
I think my throwaway favourite part was in the bit with Euron trying to taunt Theon and Theon telling Tyrion Euron's dwarf jokes weren't even good. Also, Jaime's "Believe me, I know." look at Tyrion who was all "What's with this guy?"
Yeah, there's an implicit violation of both characters that made me really uncomfortable. I don't think either of them is going to be all, "Well, what are you going to do? Get married! Who cares about close blood ties!" and so having the "close kin! Woot!" voiceover really made me wince.
Jon has been a greatly improved character since he no longer suffered from the "Who am I? I belong NOWHERE!" angst took a powder. I wasn't exactly jazzed to see what was likely a return engagement of Jon SnowSandTargs identity crisis.
I like the character but ...yeah, that's going to be an awkward reunion with Bran.
"Hi Bran! I'm so glad to see you, the last time I saw you, you were in a co..."
"I'm the three eyed Raven."
"Uh..."
"And a tree."
"Wuh...."
"And you're plugging your aunt."
"Could you maybe go back into a coma, please?"
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8 hours ago, Ailianna said:
Nobody likes Baelish, so there's that, but why on earth would the Northern Lords care about Robin or his parents? Those are Vale problems--which is why there were no Northern Lords there, only Vale Lords. This would more likely be seen as her having drug Southern problems up North and then having her siblings have to help her clean them up. There's no way that the "treason and murder" charges have any importance in the North--since his murders were in the South and his treason was both in the South and not even to House Stark. The only thing that involved the North was his betrayal of Ned--but since Ned wasn't his lord, that's personal betrayal, not treason. He plotted to ultimately overthrow Baratheon and Lannister, not Stark.
I think all lords would care about a liege lord being murdered. If nothing else, it's just survival and the action of murdering Jon Arryn decimated the Northern Houses. I think they'd care just out self-preservation.
I enjoyed Littlefinger's death scene because hey ho, Littlefinger died and that makes my heart say , "Yippee!" I didn't really dig the plot that got us there because it was contrived and it seemed to be in place to play to the existing tensions in fandom as opposed to being an organic part of the story.
The Ride of Knifey's Revenge is going to always be a fun scene for me just because someone finally just called the world's most obvious villain out and executed him. I'm glad it got to be the remaining Stark children because Littlefinger was responsible for the death of Ned, Catelyn and Robb for setting this all in motion and some of all of this was his intent.
The ultra stupid forstalling of the moment that Arya and Sansa finally say some version of "Whoa, check out what you've been through, you have my admiration and also? Fucking bygones on all childish matters, we're all we've got now, let's pull together and put our house back together."
7 hours ago, Haleth said:I think maybe next year I shouldn't devour all the spoilers because it really made the finale anticlimactic. Still, it was satisfying to see an end to LF's machinations and have Jaime walk away from Cersei (finally!). I didn't know about the Theon scenes (so that's the payoff for Ramsay's torture? Theon can't be kneed in the balls?) so it was good to see him be proactive. Boatsex, ok. The fall of the Wall, ok. It was fun to see so much of the cast together in the dragon pit scene and I'm glad they put an end to the animosity between the Stark sisters.
Lena Headey is gorgeous (those cheekbones!) but I hate the way she clenches her teeth and talks through them. Maybe she does this to make Cersei more annoying. Gah, I hope she gets eaten by the undead in 8.01. I'm so done with her.
Yeah, I love Lena Headey but Cersei doesn't even make sense as a character any longer. All that "Euron wasn't going to give up on the crown that easily" (paraphrase) stuff was kind of ludicrous because if Cersei remains knocked up, I don't think Euron -- who presumably knows he hasn't had sex with Cersei, unless he's an epic blackout drunk -- is going to be all, "Yes, of course, put your child with your brother, on the throne."
So her plan is already stupid from jump. Hopefully, she'll give birth to a baby who is a dwarf, get killed by a Stark because man, have they ever earned it over Jaime and in the series there's been no mention of the prophecy about being killed by her brother. It took series Jaime so incredibly long to leave Cersei he's kind of forfeited the right to kill her. He's just kind of a different character than he was in the books. I'm glad he's headed towards the important fighting but this dragged on far too long because the showrunners couldn't commit to the book plot for whatever reason.
I feel like a fondness for Lena Headey played a role in that and I wish it hadn't, she'd have done good work no matter what they gave her.
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13 hours ago, Lemuria said:
<snip>
At some point, Rhaegar was too dead to prevent anyone from bringing her upsetting news. I think she was well aware that Rhaegar, Elia Martell and the kids were dead when Ned arrived. <snip>
1It's possible that all Lyanna knew was that Rhaegar had gotten an annulment and married her. The fact that she knew Jon was the heir doesn't need to be related to the death of anyone, if Rhaegar got an annulment it invalidates his children from that union when it comes to the succession. At least, it would and has done that in our world.
13 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:Rhaegar not realizing that the Mad King wouldn't act like the Mad King is like that Chris Rock joke about the tiger that turned on Siegfried and Roy. "the tiger didn't go crazy, the tiger went TIGER". No one was going to respond well to that stunt Rhaegar pulled, let alone a crazy person.
I think Rhaegar could know that his father would react like a crazy person but wasn't able to predict that Brandon Stark would go south, promptly followed by his father. So it doesn't need to be a case of "My father will act like a crazy man because he is a crazy man", Rhaegar was tried to overthrow him with this move so he knew one way or another, there's just an argument to be made that he didn't realize it would end in an all war because he couldn't predict that the senior Stark, who could have given permission for the union would go directly to Good King Burns a Bunch because that's just a freaking bad plan either way.
I love the Starks. I am a sucker for the good guys then, now and always. That said, it was Brandon Stark's hotheaded reaction that brought about the rebellion as much as Robert's reaction or anyone else's because whereas Lyanna's father could have been persuaded -- and nothing spells persuasion like "she'll be queen, making your grandchildren next in line" -- but because Brandon lost his bird and went storming towards the crazy (book Brandon was such a damned jerk) whatever plan they might have had went out the window.
I do think that Lyanna's on the hook because stay the hell away from the married dude, at least until such time as all annulments and parental permissions are given.
13 hours ago, GrailKing said:He totally looked pissed that Jon and Dany hooked up, I wonder if he was going to hook up Jamie with her?
Also would he take Cersei out or force her to Casterly Rock.
I don't think it has to do with Cersei's baby as much as it has to do with Westerosi history. Littlefinger seemed to know there was more to it than Lyanna being abducted. It's possible that many people knew the rumors but wouldn't necessarily tell the Starks because it does reflect really badly on dead Lyanna at least on the "Shit, girl, you couldn't wait until after you filled in your relatives? Also, send a fucking raven. They do every else."
So it's possible Tyrion simply isn't jazzed about the role of romantic impulsivity and what it has already done, but he also didn't do any "Oopsie, didn't realize you weren't alone, am I interrupting anything?" knock of "put it back in your pants, kiddos, we can talk dating after this mess is straightened out."
But when standing in a Kingdom formed by a lot of romantic entanglements and the deadly fallout, I think looking a little concerned about Starks (because that's what Tyrion thinks Jon is and he is half Stark anyway) and Targaryens doing the do has come with a high cost to the world already.
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13 hours ago, stagmania said:
Please spare us the moralizing about a show that has featured all manner of physical and sexual violence and depravity from the very beginning.
Apologizing upfront again for being unable to quote properly, I have to go page by page or lose what I'm quoting, so for anyone who might care: I am actually reading the thread in full, I just can't respond in a way that reflects that very well.
On the one hand, true but on the other hand, not really true. The characters have no idea that they are related. None whatsoever. They truly aren't doing anything wrong in their minds or in the nature of their relationship. Incest is wrong on multiple levels but one of them has to do with being emotionally unhealthy for people with an existing relationship. Knowing it is taboo and results in emotional damage that can last a lifetime is something that audience possesses knowledge on but the characters do not.
However, the show decided to voice over about the Aunt and nephew thing while they were doing the do specifically to send the audience a message that it is going to be a giant issue once they hit land. Once they learn what they have done, it's going to trouble them both, if for no other reason than to illustrate that Dany and Jon as potential ruling entities have nothing in common with Cersei and Jaime who have been all "Yay, incest!"
The Voice Over over sex that didn't include any warm-up or kissing about being way too closely related for that to be a good idea seems to indicate that Dany and Jon will be of the "No! Incest! YIKES!" once in possession of that knowledge. So it seems that the show threw out a clue as to the direction they are taking this in and that it promises to be a source of emotional pain for both characters when they learn what they have accidentally done.
13 hours ago, Hana Chan said:<snipped>
Not going to mourn Littlefinger. His death was very, very overdue. Was highly entertaining to see him begging for his life and then bleeding out on the floor.
<snip to isolate a point>
Glad that we now have firm confirmation on 1) that Jon is legitimate and 2) his real name. I liked the flashback to Reaghar's and Lyanna's wedding (and am ok with his appearance). Jon's going to come home to some very interesting news.
1I can't help but wonder if we may have Arya as Littlefinger next year, to gain access to the King's Landing and kill Cersei. So we might not be done with Aiden Gillen yet (and I agree, he's been pretty weak in this role) but I was still glad to see him bested by the remaining Stark siblings. I also really appreciated that Sansa and Arya had a moment of acknowledging that they both went through mountains of hell and that Arya is incredibly brave while Sansa has been also, simply to still be functional.
13 hours ago, Wayward Son said:Jamie finally leaving Cersei is too little too late for this viewer.
Yeah, that was beyond hollow to me, but in the better late than never category, I will happily take it.
12 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:Usually incest won't need such warning, but I guess they felt it was warranted in this case.
I understand the point you are making but really disagree with the manner in which it is being made. It isn't just the characters on this show that have no emotional framework to make this anything than an emotional trial for them both. They've done nothing wrong, it isn't incest to them. They are committing incest on a technicality because they've been lied to their entire lives. This isn't touched on anywhere but I'm assuming that Viserys may have actually been privy to the fact that Lyanna Stark was not a captive (she just kind of sucked because her romance ended with her family being killed in rather large numbers and that's continuing to this day) but there's something kind of important about that annullment.
It invalidates Dany's claim because Jon would be in the succession before she would. The succession would pass to Jon before it would Dany. That was the big issue when Henry VIII had his marriage to Catherine of Aragon annulled (all of his marriages were annulled, he was never divorced, it nullifies legitimacy also) and it invalidated Mary Tudor's claim. So his annullment would invalidate the two children that were killed but it also puts Dany in a different position. Mary's line in the succession was restored after her younger half-brother Edward ruled and died before her and it only happened because they were essentially out of heirs. There's that whole Lady Jane Grey and her nine day rule rebellion in there too.
That's part of the point, or should be, about revealing that Rhaegar had the marriage annulled. It invalidates the children of his first marriage but it also changes Dany's place in the line.
But the show isn't "Yay, incest!" and scolding fans who also completely lack the emotional construct for the characters that it is wrong is carrying the ball too far over the goal line, I think.
As a for instance, I think incest is reprehensible but on the rare occasion I've read about someone accidentally marrying their half-brother (which you'd think would be rarer than it is) without any knowledge of it, I have to admit, I think they should just be left alone. The genetic implications are far overstated and the true problem because that it is a form of emotional abuse and damage.
That exists with Jaime and Cersei. It doesn't exist as a factor with Dany and Jon. I don't ship them even a tiny bit but I understand why other people aren't horrified because they aren't breaking any rules knowingly. It's actually freaking tragic and I think meant to be so. The scene didn't personally do anything for me but I think people are well within bounds to think pretty people having sex is something fun. Intellectual knowledge and emotional response being separate things is actually the point of what they are doing with Dany and Jon.
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On 7/26/2017 at 9:17 PM, GussieK said:
I agree with this . It made no sense to choose this sleepy little town to be the money laundering center of the U.S.
For whatever it is or isn't worth, this is supposed to be set at the Lake of the Ozarks (it's actually filmed in Georgia) and I've been there as I lived in Missouri for 4 years. It's not a sleepy little town and people flock there for close to three seasons with summer being the height. They even have their own TV station affiliates there. Don't get me wrong, it's far from a metropolis but it's also pretty hopping and known as a party destination.
I can't speak to gun sale procedures within MO but it is very much a gun culture there and they have open carry laws in place. That's not meant to be a Walmart, I think it might be based on a Meynards but again, no clue if they actually sell guns as I can't stand guns and avoid those departments in any store. I think the point of the scene was that the store was very obviously NOT complying with the law by choice between the clerk accurately assessing that Tuck is special needs and then correcting him about buying it for someone else.
The young actor playing Marty's son is a rare find, wow, that kid has the chops.
Also, turns out Ruth/Kimmie from the Americans has the chops for days. That last scene with her was gut wrenching. I know she would have followed through on killing Marty earlier in the season and I like that the show adhered to "Show, don't tell" storytelling rules by showing us that Marty and Wendy are the only people in her life, other than her cousin, who have ever treated her with anything resembling decency and kindness, so that when Ruth said she couldn't let her uncle him Marty, it was entirely believable.
However, oh my god, her face when she said that. She looked as if her life was being snacked away by some painful entity within. They are always using a very punishing filter on this show -- and props to everyone for giving vanity free performances in the face of that cold blue filter -- and on Ruth in that scene, wow, she looked like she had been through hell, died, been buried and dug back up again.
It somehow managed to emphasize the fact that in reality, she's little better than a kid, living in a world that's been constantly unkind to her because of an accident of birth.
On 8/1/2017 at 6:54 PM, PsychoDrone said:FBI agent's name should be Captain Ahab. His pursuit of Marty is causing him to make some terrible choices and it is not going to end well for him. Even if Marty is caught, there is high potential for him to walk based on the FBI agent's misdeeds.
I can buy that Marty's son was able to get Tuck(sp?) to buy the guns for him. But, the one Marty's son fired was an automatic. Automatics can't be bought in gun stores or do I have that wrong? Or, if they can, isn't an extensive (approx 6 months) background check required to buy them? Show dropped the ball on that one.
Daughter's character has gotten better as time has progressed. At first, intolerable, but she is more nuanced and show toned her down quite a bit.
2Yeah, the FBI Agent is not necessarily the strongest character for me. It isn't that he has some tunnel vision on bringing down the Cartel (although you're right, he absolutely does) , I think the story did a fair amount to earn that kind of cold-blooded response to someone he actually seemed to struggle with caring about (as in he did care about him, it just didn't change anything).
It's actually that his rageful veneer extends towards everyone in his life now. That was the part that didn't make a ton of sense. He went from being a loving partner and son to being a Full Metal Rageoholic in ways that are a little perplexing. He wouldn't last as an undercover agent, either, he's drawing too much attention to himself.
Although, wow, was that ever on-the-nose for Missouri when the guys at the bar were decked out in Mizzou regalia and all that mattered was the Mizzou game. It really resonated but what didn't was that agent Crazy Pants bashing a kid in the head with a bottle wouldn't have ended with a call to the local police department.
That's one thing that the show has been kind of gilding the lily on and that's okay. It's not meant to be a Missouri documentary but one thing that Missourians love is a robust law enforcement presence. Wherever the money goes, so do the police departments and there are a ton of them thanks to the municipality treatment within Missouri. I lived in Clarkson Valley and Ellisville while I was there. I've never seen police presence like I saw in Missouri. They are also a little bit famous for having issues of corruption within the different departments.
So in reality the Lake of the Ozarks would be stuffed stupid with over zealous cops but like I said, it's not a Missouri documentary.
Also, on the one hand, I was so relieved when the Dying Guy Downstairs (no clue on his name) removed the ammunition but as I haven't seen the finale yet, I'm nervous as hell for what kind of predicament it will put them all in. Still, I'm glad he saved a ten year old boy from wielding an automatic weapon under duress. Or, you know, at all.
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On 8/8/2017 at 9:19 AM, MaryWebGirl said:
I thought the crazy timelines were annoying and unnecessarily confusing for the sake of being "artistic." Also I don't think the agent adds much to the show as far as the story or an interesting character, so while I thought his backstory was compelling on its own I didn't really need it.
Marty and Wendy are such great characters I would have preferred more time on their backstories, and maybe a hint of why Marty's partners thought they could pull one over on the cartel, or even more about the cartel boss and his wife.
I did also and the timeline is not linear within the flashback, we can tell by the fact that we see Wendy and Marty get into the car accident at the top of the story, we see her at home being depressed after losing her baby. Although we don't know why she's depressed when we see her, we learn that she was pregnant at nearly the end of the episode when we see her taking the pregnancy test.
So we have actual proof that's it's not a linear narrative and it loops around. It just was not the best narrative choice as witnessed by the fact that it was nigh on impossible to keep track of within the episode. The editor really should have used chyrons for things like May 2007 (or whatever month they were using) to give us a heads up.
The story kept circling back on itself until it found the catalyst for each character. In the case of the FBI agent: We know his mother was hurt at the top of the episode and then learn how later, we heard the agent saying that "she went through all of that when she moved out" at the top of the episode and then towards the end see what caused her to live with them and the period in which she lived with them.
The editing on this was for psych wards, it made no linear or narrative sense but was saved by the always great cast and actors. It wasn't even a failure of story, it was a failure of editing to illustrate the importance of the story.
When we met the FBI agent he told Ruth's uncle about the love of his life who left him, a doctor in Chicago...who he then reveals to be male.
Lots of good stuff in this episode but the editor nearly robbed the audience of it.
I also like that Wendy and Marty are blinded to good sense by greed and that the mechanism for having the scales fall from Marty's eyes is to see his predecessor relieved of his own eyeballs. I liked that kind of a lot in that "I technically wasn't watching but appreciated the symbolism" way.
On 7/26/2017 at 6:59 AM, GussieK said:Yes, it was hard to follow the timeline. That's why I came up with my theory.
We watched it twice before going on to the next episode just to make sure because that was a soggy timeline if ever there was one.
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Awesome, so I fucked up another quote box by accidentally using bb codes. At least this time there's an explanation. Please don't ask me why I can't just then edit it out, I genuinely have no idea. Here's what I was trying to say in response:
Truly. Plus, there's the terrifying prospect of men calling their wives "mother" catching on at a national level. Must be avoided. Keep making white shadows there.
Not exactly worth the wait, I admit.
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Off-topic, but I love your avatar, @Corgi-ears
Quotehe should have said that our problems won't be over till two more people in the photo get shown the door. #SixPenceNonetheBetter
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22 minutes ago, glowbug said:
I have to side with Dany when it comes the to succession talk with Tyrion. Why should she be worrying about that when she doesn't even have the throne? If she dies her side has lost (as Tyrion, himself, has pointed out) and there's no point to declaring an heir. Once she's queen she can appoint an heir or put in place a system of appointing one. They have much greater things to worry about now.
This seemed more like stage-setting to me than anything else. First, we have Tyrion trying to press for who will be her successor and it ends up making him seem strange, sketchy and possibly grasping when he's also urging her NOT to go and fight in the North. Pretty much guaranteeing that everyone in the audience will be on the opposite side of Tyrion in that argument from jump, since literally millions of people were probably all, "Fuck no!! Fly, fly now!! You have not seen how doomed these poor fuckers are and they're, like, the only funny people in the entire fucking show other than Tyrion. Hurry before one of those things eats Beric, or Jorah who practically gave a "today is a good day to die" type of speech by absolving Ned Stark of blame for "wanting my head" with "he was in the right, didn't stop me from hating him" (well, death was on the line, so...pardon granted on that emotional impulse) , giving Jon his ancestral sword saying he gave up all right to it (also true, but touching). Time is of the essence. Chop chop!"
So there was that aspect. Also, I think with the "they are the only children I will ever have, do you understand?" Uh...yes, in this case, because you're talking to the person we're going to find out is your nephew -- here's hoping before you bone so that you can at least make an informed decision as opposed to finding out "Holy hell, that's an awfully close blood relative" -- it's either so that people won't freak when you get down to funky town OR...given Tyrion's words...it was to set the stage for Dany naming Jon as her heir when she finds out. Combine with Sam's stolen pile of birthright proving (although he breezed right past the "I'm sorry, but someone named Rhaegar was annulled and that's important enough to note at the Citadel...that's probably significant..." because also stage-setting).
Don't anyone die of shock, as I don't like Tyrion after all that "Where do whores go?" raping and what not, but I actually felt freaking sorry for Tyrion/Peter Dinklage that he was given such a wince-inducing line that was there to establish, "Hey ho, we're aware, she has no heir...and yes, that is her blood relative...who may no longer have blood running in his veins...cause the chest wounds are still looking pretty unhealed and grievous" . There had to be a better moment to do that and wouldn't make Tyrion, whose advice has been of the fairly shitty variety on several occasions, look like he was more broken up about not knowing who to give her seat to, than the perceived necessity of knowing.
Here's the thing with Jon being submerged and having Stark blood, which seemed to help Benjen survive beyond the wall, is that saved Jon from freezing to death? They were chipping ice off the man but he didn't become whatever version of Wight that Stark's become (Benjen is simply undead as opposed to a Wight, it seems) because Jon has already shuffled off the mortal coil once? Those wounds suggest that he's alive but got something different going on than most living things.
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4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:
Who was the second member of the Magnificent Seven Suicide Squad who died? Thoros and they burned him, but then the one who fell off of the rock and was overcome by the wights - who was that? I watched twice and missed it both times.
Does anyone actually know? We stopped and rewound (eh, you know, went back even if there's no winding of anything in this the age of digital magic) and still couldn't figure out who the hell became The Lord of the Red Misty Gore there.
I came here expecting to see a bunch of book readers with better memories saying, "Ah poor...some version of Martin's Westerosing up of a name, like Harlon Flynt or whatever..." and people talking about how he was better in the books.
For real, is anyone even glancingly familiar with the dude who took the plunge and was immediately turned into a spray of cherry Jell-o on the White Cliffs of Death Things?
Also, Iain Glen is quite possibly the most graceful man alive.
ETA: Wait, that's the real answer? Chyrri Jyll-o was basically the dude's name? Well, all right then. Strange choice.
QuoteHe wasn't one of the Seven--there were a few wildlings that went with them. He was just a brave guy who saved Jon before making a false step.
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2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:
Ayra then threatens to tell the northern lords about the letter as Sansa blanches in reaction. Ayra ups the ante by asking her what Lady Mormont would have done when told to write the letter and I’m sure it would have been some version of telling everyone to go fuck themselves. And her head would have likely ended up on a spike next to Ned’s.
One (out of the many) frustrating things about Arya's brave stance is that for most of the series, she's actually had someone with her as a protector. First it was Syrio, then it was Yoren, then it was Gendry, then it was Jaquen. I understand that the point of the conversation is that Arya has become a person whittled down to one view of the world: Seeking revenge but calling it justice. It's her animating force. It makes sense that she has narrowed her view down to something that paints her own actions in a tirelessly fearless way because she is so brave but she also benefited from Ned's worldview in a way that Sansa got equally ass-bitten by in her own turn.
Arya encountered a lot of decent, trustworthy people while being brave as hell and fierce to boot. Sansa was always without even one true ally. I'm sure someone will now bring up Tryion but yeah, I can see why she didn't trust his intentions because of his last name. Ned's teaching and words helped Arya or rather, they didn't hinder her much in this tale. People who were in her life that urged her to trust them or stay with them, go with them, travel with them, were all largely trustworthy and honorable enough. She just kept running into appalling and horrifying behavior and it did eventually change her. It's not that one sister is right and the other wrong, it's that they don't seem to understand they've had a lot of the same experiences. They were eventually changed and hardened by the reality of the world, but believing in the world of Ned helped Arya for much of her journey and was the very thing that bit Sansa in the ass so often.
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S07.E07: The Dragon And The Wolf
in Game Of Thrones
· Edited by stillshimpy
Unfortunately, Dany roasted Sam's family alive...so the comfort about certain implications of the revelation might not be there. Sam's probably not going to be all "Wooooo....you're a Targaryen?" after he gets that word.
ETA: Part of his family. The part that would have produced Tarly heirs, unfortunately. Maybe with the wall down at least all oaths to it are moot because ...poor Sam.