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This show has really gone downhill. Okay, so in one of the previous episodes, Grace decided not to take any medical (eg., sonogram) equipment with her when she left the shopping mall with Morgan (the mall that had the medical center). But in this past episode, there was a sonogram type thing in the vehicle with her. And June was using it to scan / examine Grace, but admitted to Morgan and John she didn't have the medical knowledge to know what she was seeing. She'd need to have a manual. If she can't read the output of such a device, I wonder what the point was in trying to read it in the first place? And did, off screen, the group go back to that mall to retrieve that thing? As for Ginny the cowgirl. I can see how others find her annoying, but she doesn't really bother me, at least not yet. I'm still trying to figure her out - her game plan, her motivations, her philosophy. I guess she will kill people if she doesn't perceive them as being useful? I'd like to know how she defines "useful." That one guy is in a wheelchair, would she off him? But he has helped his group on several occasions, like putting Christmas lights out on that make shift runway. (Not that I think people in wheelchairs are expendable or useless - I am trying to assume the POV of Ginny). I like some of the ideas this show is exploring, but I feel the execution is lacking. For example, they are bringing up competing propaganda - you have Al's group Vs. Ginny's group putting out propaganda, kind of like the Axis and the Allies, ie, Tokyo Rose in World War II. It's an interesting concept to explore (IMO anyhow), but as the show is carrying it out, it comes across as boring to dopey to eye-rolling. Also, the concept of both groups claim to want to help people and do good, but they disagree with HOW to do so. Considering most of the group dynamics on the original show is flipped backwards - (groups who DO NOT care about the greater good, they're all selfish, ruthless jerk faces) - It is interesting to see the disagreement be about how to build a better world. But it's not being conveyed too well. Some stuff doesn't compute for me, either - Ginny says she's about helping others (including Morgan and his buddies), but at the bridge, when they refused her help, she shot her firearms off, to intentionally attract zombies to put them in peril. If you want to help people, why put those same people at risk by attracting hordes of zombies towards them???? That is counter-productive. So is it that Ginny will help you, but only on HER terms??? Some guy (Tom?) died on the bridge just to finish filming something for Al's propaganda tape - is this show serious? I could probably write a few more paragraphs about this show and the particular episode, but I feel I've gone on too long already. Some links about the show, the last episode in particular: Fear The Walking Dead Stupidly Proves Its Villains Are The Good Guys Fear The Walking Dead’s Second Documentary Episode Is Just Unbearable The guy who wrote this suggests going forward the show needs to kill off all cast members including John Dorie -he'd only spare Daniel and Alicia -as a Dorie fan, I can say, quoting Hall & Oates here, "can't go for that, no can do": ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Needs A Drastic Change, Like Killing Off 95% Of Its Cast This explains how a lot of people are being killed or hurt due to Al's camera: Althea’s Videocamera On ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Really Is The Worst

A few more links - the guys at Forbes really do not like this show. 'Fear The Walking Dead' Season 5, Episode 14 Review: This Zombie Apocalypse Sure Is Boring Excerpts: Fear the Walking Dead Star Colby Minifie Reveals Backstory Behind New Villain Virginia Excerpt: ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Boldly Pivots Back To Making No Sense Excerpt:

I'm usually a pessimist, too. I guess I'm just being naive now.

Most excellent, succint way of putting things, and it's all true.

Agreed with all that, including the part about the cat. I hope the cat does not get killed on this show. A headline from a few days ago says that for the first time since the mid or late 1980s, vinyl albums are now out-selling CDs for music. Vinyl Is Poised to Outsell CDs For the First Time Since 1986

The other show kind of has the opposite problem. A little bit of Negan goes a long, long way. He was basically only onscreen for seasons 7 and 8, but his foreshadowing in 6 was so long, it felt like he was on screen for all of six, too. I do think this show has had some fairly weak bad guy characters. IMO, they're damned if they do or if they don't. For me, I sometimes get a little tired of the original show's premise, which is usually The Good Guy Group spends a season of two battling whomever That Season's Arch Nemesis Is. It's sort of nice (to me anyway) to have a ZA show that does not trot out the "big bad guy" plot line as a focal point every season. Every hero is only as good or interesting as his or her arch nemesis. Batman might be rather boring without the Joker. Maybe if "Fear" had better or more interesting villains, it would improve the plots or make the shows more interesting.

I just left a few links in the 'FTWD In The Media' thread, about how fans are very angry about the downward spiral in quality of this show, and they are letting AMC know. I was preoccupied while last night's show was on. I even sat through the show twice, but I was not able to give it my full attention both times, so I'm only vaguely aware of what was going on. I did think the underwater fight scene, where Al had to fend off a zombie in the swimming pool, looked pretty cool. Ginny the Cowgirl lady offered Al and Morgan some strawberry preserves at a later point. I think I remember seeing Daniel and Grace sing a duet of an early 1990s /late 1980s "Traveling Wilbury's" song (Traveling Wilburys = great band, by the way. I used to have their album on cassette tape back in the day.) Beyond that, I'm not all too clear on what exactly happened, but I did learn a little bit from reading some recaps provided by other sites. I am hoping all this convoluted, weird, at times very boring and unclear story telling and plot lines will have a huge, great, entertaining pay off at the season finale - which is next week or the one after?? I feel for the actors. I don't have a problem with the majority of them. I love the John Dorie character, I like Strand and several other characters, but the storylines for this past season are the pits.

Yeah, I dropped in to post some of the same stuff as above. Fans of "Fear" are hacked off and letting AMC know it on Twitter. I'm not thrilled with the direction of the show, and I hope AMC fixes it, but I wouldn't say I wish ill will on the current showrunners. Yes, the current duo has made some questionable to downright awful character or storyline points, but I'm not out for their blood. I do hope the show gets better moving forward. I'm not even totally sure why I'm still watching at this stage, except, I guess, I keep assuming it will get better, have some kind of pay off, and I love the John Dorie character. Links from media outlets: Fear the Walking Dead Showrunners Face Fan Backlash on Twitter ‘Talking Dead’ Asks Fans For Questions For ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Showrunners, It Does Not Go Well Some excerpts from that page (these are the "nicer" Tweets! Some were profanity strewn with a lot more vitriol):

In a previous episode this season, Dorie and June stopped by a Humbug Gulch amusement park, similar to one Dorie used to work at, and there was a storage cabinet filled with ammo. I did wonder, though, how much ammo he was using shooting off the zombies one by one before they fell over the cliff. It seemed to me to be a waste of ammo. I took that editing to mean, we're supposed to think it was a long day, that the zombies started falling over the cliff during day hours, and it continued into the night, but at first, it was kind of jarring. I think it also would indicate that John Dorie was shooting zombies from afternoon into the night. I'd think he would've run out of ammo by then(?), and his arm or hand would've been too sore to keep firing for that many hours.

I agree with everything nodorothyparker wrote right above, and I was coming on to the forum to make a few of the same points she did. I did think this episode was a lot more interesting than many of the ones that came before it from this season, because stuff happened, and the characters seemed to be driving towards something. The show has not been using the Luciana character, so I can't say I'm totally surprised they effectively wrote her out in last night's episode. The cowgirl, Ginny, seems Negan-esque. I did wonder if Ginny and her Hopalong Cowboy friends are going to be a rehash of Neagan and his "Saviors" or not. I hope not. I feel like Fear is sometimes just recycling ideas from TWD. To be fair to this show, or any show set in the Zombie Apocalypse, I'm not sure what all else they can do. I think the first show (and common sense) has made it clear that one of your biggest dangers in the ZA are not actually the zombies but ruthless humans who will step on you to get what they need and want. I don't think there are many ways to spin that, other than having, every season, our main group face off a Big Bad (or a group of Big Bads). I do like the change up with Fear, that we have a group of people on this show trying to do good - great concept, but the execution has been very boring. On the original program, I got tired of the "group meets bad guy(s), group fights bad guy(s) for survival, group wins" type of story line. That went on for several seasons on TWD and does get to be "old hat" after so long. So it is nice to see a group who is altruistic, who isn't trying to control or kill everyone around them, but I wish they had a more interesting way of presenting the concept. One thing they could have done, and can still do, is have one character join the Group of Do Gooders who doesn't see eye to eye with Morgan on how to be the good guys. To make a drama interesting, after all, conflict is usually required, which may mean seeing people verbally or physically fight each other or to see disagreements among people on how to accomplish a goal. Anyway, at least stuff happened in this episode, which is more than I can say for the previous several episodes. I do think this show has gotten very boring this season, the storytelling has gotten nonsensical, lazy, and sloppy, and AMC - or whomever is responsible for it - needs to do something to improve it. And what about the rats? I hope the rats that had been suspended in cages were rescued from that blazing refinery. 'Fear The Walking Dead' Season 5, Episode 13 Review: Well That Was Bizarre ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Finally Makes Something Interesting Happen With A New Villain Group

That was one boring episode. Fear seems to be rehashing storylines or tricks used earlier on Fear or ones from the original (TWD). In this program, for example, the kid and the rabbi used the horn (shofar??) - noise - to lure the zombies away from June and John. We've seen the original show and this one use the same trick previously, but usually via a boom box or stereo system. The novelty starts to wear off after awhile. There aren't any character arcs, not really. We're supposed to think that Alicia felt the need to atone for her bad past, but IMO, she never went full-on Negan / evil. Most to all of her actions were understandable, but the show spent part of this season having her atone for her past, or talk about needing to. The storylines are thin gruel. I'm not a Walking Dead hater. I would like for both shows to do well and be fun to watch. I've loved zombie themed entertainment since I was a kid, I'm still watching the original TWD (I even sat through the very dull season six to eight Rick Vs. Negan war), and even I am tempted to find something else to watch Sunday nights rather than Fear. The show is totally wasting their John Dorie character, which is sad and frustrating for me to watch week in and week out. Other than the "he's alone in his cabin" episode, and maybe a couple with Morgan (when he was looking for June/Laura), we've not had any decent Dorie episodes. I'm not sure how I feel about the one where Dorie returns to Humbug Gulch and splits a bullet on an axe. I guess I feel very "meh" about that one(?). Great character, and the actor is doing a fine job, but the storylines for him are either "blah" or cringe worthy. Here are a few reviews from other sites: 'Fear The Walking Dead' Season 5, Episode 12: 'Ner Tamid' Is Another Miss ‘Fear the Walking Dead’ Suffers A Huge One Week Ratings Drop ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Continues To Suffer From Awkward Continuity Problems

^Yes, John Dorie is the best character on this show (and IMO from either show). ☺️ (I just wish the show people would give him decent story lines.) From Entertainment Weekly - there's a video with a preview on this page and some text: Fear the Walking Dead introduces zombie-killing rabbi

...and a plane, and hot air balloons... ☺️

Not that I entirely disagree with you about Logan, but I don't know what the alternative is. As much as I enjoy both shows (despite their flaws), I'm not sure what else the show writers could do. On the one hand, I do enjoy a great dastardly villain, but, on the other hand, after having sat through several of them on the original show already (The Governor, cannibal leader guy at Terminus, Negan, bald lady 'Alpha,' who wears zombie skins as masks), I'm getting a little worn out by TWD tendency to give us a big, bad guy every season. It's kind of like that Smallville (Superman) show from years ago: That show was quite fun and good the first few seasons, but they resorted to giving us a "Villian of the Week" every week, usually some kid who touched kryptonite, which would turn them evil or insane, to the point, fans of the show started referring to those (predictable) characters as "Freak of the Week." Walking Dead has done the same thing with the Bad Guys - we get a larger than life baddie almost every season. I do think Logan is kind of a lame baddie, don't get me wrong (and he makes some questionable choices), .... But I'm not sure I'd like the alternative, either, which would be: give us another menacing, over- the- top, super-duper bad guy. If the show went that direction, we'd likely get yet another Negan or Governor all over again, and that feels very "been there, done that." It's almost kind of a nice change of pace to get bad guys in these Walking Dead shows who aren't just your standard, usual eye-patch-wearing despots who are pure evil and kill others in very gruesome ways. They could improve the Logan character, though.

Now that you mention the thing about sets / shooting locations. And perhaps I'm wrong about this, but. There was a shot an episode or two ago of Morgan sitting down (road side) outside on a bright, sunny day, with a line of trees forming a canopy behind him. I remember thinking how pretty they looked, with the sunlight streaming through the leaves, and it would be nice to take a walk through such a scenic route. I'm pretty sure (but again, I could be wrong), that they've gone on to film a few more scenes there, at that same exact location, because a few times, one or more characters, episodes later, appear to be standing on a road with a canopy of trees behind them. And I think they're supposed to be in a different location, not the same road side.

OK, so Alicia was so traumatized by killing all those zombies a few eps back (when she was defending the kids at the tree house) that is why she couldn't continue killing zombies again, until 5/6 into tonight's show? If I am grasping that correctly, that seems to be a pretty weak motive. No John Dorie in tonight's show, so ☹️ (insert sad face here) Anyway, here are a few links by others about tonight's show. Logan Is A Really Sad, Ineffective Villain On ‘Fear The Walking Dead’ Excerpt: 'Fear The Walking Dead' Season 5, Episode 11 Review: More Incoherent Nonsense, Very Little Fear - by that guy at Forbes who really doesn't like FTWD Excerpt: Fear the Walking Dead Fans Blast “Boring” Episode 511 - from Comicbook's site Excerpt from that page:

Ah, I had forgotten about that, thank you for reminding me! You raised some good points in your post. I was saying above that I don't know why Dorie doesn't go back to his cabin with June, since they could keep on fishing in that river by his cabin, he has a stock pile of pop corn, they could grow tomatoes in his back yard, and I think he had a chicken coop for gathering eggs(?) I guess I missed the part about Morgan saying he smiled when he was around his wife before they married. I did hear him talking to Grace about smiling when he was with his kid, watching him play with the remote control car he bought him, or something.

Oh yeah, thank you for reminding me - that is true too. Is there anything Al cannot do? I like the character just fine, but it's straining credulity at how she seems to be an expert at just about every obstacle the group encounters. Does she have a military background?- that may help explain some of her know-how. If not, I am at a loss.

And the show just added, what, about ten or so kids - tweens and teens - to the cast. I know that AMC wants to do a teen-based Walking Dead show, and maybe the appearance of all these kids is tied in to that somehow. If not, I can't imagine why they want too many kids on here, unless they will serve as zombie fodder, to get eaten every so often to heighten drama.

I wouldn't blame the actor if he leaves this show, because the quality has gone downhill, but I love John Dorie, so I hope he stays - and I hope the show gives him (and the other actors) better story lines.

Well now, we were introduced to Al as being a journalist who also knew how to drive and use fire arms on a SWAT vehicle, and later, when the planes broke down, we learn that she's also an ace plane mechanic (as is Strand, who used to own a yacht - owning a big boat apparently qualifies one to fly or repair planes). I am sure if or when the time comes for this group to refine oil, Al or Strand, or June, or some other group member will suddenly surprise us with their expertise at that. Maybe we will find out that before becoming a trauma nurse, June used to work around oil refineries. Or, she was married to a guy who worked at one, and she picked it up by osmosis.

I know that Dwight says that Logan may know about Chuck Red-Jacket's mall, so they would not be safe there - is he sure? who says? - but I don't see why they cannot stay at that mall, which was, IMO, a bit unrealistically over-stocked with food and goods. I'd assume it would've been picked over by now. Anyway, another pet peeve of mine from that ep: the part where Morgan and Grace are at the top of the escalator, zombies keep coming up the escalator, Grace runs out of ammo, and Morgan has to spear stick each one in the head. Then Morgan starts yelling about Grace finding a table or something to block the pathway, since the On / Off button won't work. I'm not a zombie, mall, or escalator expert, but did Morgan REALLY need a table to block the way? With each zombie kill, it falls down on the spot, the next will fall down on top of or to the side of that one, until you get a whole pile of dead zombies there, which will serve as a barricade for days or weeks, until their bodies wither away. So why couldn't Morgan just stand there, keep on killing zombies, until he had a mountain pile of zombie bodies to serve as a blockade from other zombies? "Candy Bean-sies." Cringe. She meant "jelly beans."

I think that's the whole Logan Villain plot point. The Morgan group knows where the oil field is (which is to make gas for their cars?), but Morgan won't tell Logan where it is, I guess because if Logan finds it, he won't share it with other people. As for the ammo, I've wondered about that too. They did at least broach this on the original show, when they had Eugene start up an ammo making factory. John Dorie is an excellent shot, but how long can he keep that up if he runs out of ammo? They did show Dorie finding ammo at the Humbug Gulch amusement park a few eps ago, and he has mentioned previously he's also good with rope tricks. I guess if the Gulch ammo runs out, he can use his rope to take down bad guys? I love the Dorie character. I cringe at how this show either doesn't have him in entire eps at a time, or if he is on-screen, they don't use him that much, or give him dopey story-lines.

Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. I understand Morgan's concerns and his principle about fighting only leading to more fighting, so why doesn't his group just turn the other cheek. That is a lovely sentiment, but unfortunately, there are always going to be some people (or groups of people) who are selfish or psychotic - they cannot be reasoned with, or negotiated with. They don't care about you and your needs and never will. They will not hesitate or feel bad about trampling over you and yours to get what they need and want. At some point, it may be necessary for Morgan or his people to beat up or kill another person / group of people, in order to avoid being killed themselves. We do see from the original show, TWD, that responding to violence with only more violence keeps this perpetual cycle of war and killing going on (e.g. Negan Vs. Rick Grimes war), which isn't good... But I'm not sure if Morgan's apparent "do nothing in response if attacked" type of view will work, either. I think that was the strategy for the original Alexandrians on the TWD show, Deanna had her people holed up in their base (that fenced in community) and would send that dude out (I forget his name) to scout out people outside of their gates, to see if the new people would want to join them. I am assuming the only reason they are not returning to Daniel's warehouse base is because in one episode, that trucker lady said she had to tear the wall down around his facility to take the plane out - the plane wouldn't fit through the gates. But I sit there and wonder, well, can't fences be repaired??? What is stopping these people from getting more wood and whatever else and just repairing the fence at Daniel's place?

I believe Morgan told Grace he's going to look for Al because "she's out there on her own" -?