Erin9

Agreed. They settle in. I just hope Netflix buys S3.....I need to see what happens. I have started reading the first book though!

I’m not sure I’d heard the theory that it may have been intended as a deterrent to the USSR. Interesting. I knew you’d be knowledgeable on the subject. :) Though I generally think of Truman as a pretty decent man. I have trouble believing that was his rationale for bombing Japan. I think Elizabeth was somewhat brainwashed as far as the USSR was concerned. She didn’t see reality anyway. Certainly there’s plenty of US history that wasn’t exactly our finest hour- or depending on your POV-sounds pretty bad, depending on how you frame the story. But- one of her issues was how close minded she was. It made her easier to manipulate. She was taught a way of thinking about the USSR and the US- and that was it. A bit OT, but my knowledge on the Weimar Republic is fairly sparse. I’m trying to learn as I watch Babylon Berlin.

I’m not an expert on the Japanese/WWII, but I will say the fighting in the Pacific War was BRUTAL. I’ve read a lot about it; it’s been awhile, but the Japanese were pretty fanatical fighters. And I do mean fanatical. I do not feel that’s an overstatement given the prevailing mindset at the time. And the treatment of our POWs by them.....well, having had a relative who was a POW in the Philippines and later escaped- appalling and sick are the most restrained things I have to say on that subject. While America did drop two A bombs....so far, I’ve never had a problem with Truman’s call. But there’s certainly plenty of opinions on the subject. But again- I won’t claim to be any kind of expert. The firebombings of Tokyo and Dresden were pretty devastating as well. I think more may have died in the firebombing, but don’t quote me. Not to mention Tokyo was largely wooden frame homes. It was catastrophic. I think Tokyo gets lost in the focus on the A bombs. Bringing that back around to the show, I do agree that Elizabeth wouldn’t have had to be fed lies about the US to find reasons to hate it. We’ve certainly done some bad things.

This may not be the thread for this, but.....If you haven’t given Babylon Berlin a try, I’d recommend it. It’s on Netflix. It’s a German show taking place in 1929 Germany- the twilight of the Weimar Republic. I’m 6 episodes into S1, and it is amazing. Brilliant. Netflix better grab S3 when it comes out! It’s loosely based on books- 2 of which have been translated into English. Definitely going to give them a try too.

I don’t think it was the most flattering either, but worst seems like a gross overstatement. A lot of their worst dresses I thought were lovely. Or at least definitely not qualifying as worst. Makes me wonder what I’d think of the best dressed list. Lol I haven’t looked yet.

CF was also in the same position as KR- this was her last chance to win for the role. I didn’t watch S2 of the Crown, but I do know CF was great in S1. I’m really excited for Matthew. He deserved it. His work has always been outstanding and the final episode was truly amazing. I’m glad to hear he mentioned Noah. He was fabulous as well. The garage scenes don’t work without both of them being perfect. And they were.

She was great. I enjoyed watching her story. I totally understand why they wanted to spend significant time on the terrorist end of the show. It was humanizing and they only have one season with them. And it was over all well written. But in S2- they really need to work on time management and character development for their core cast. We should certainly see more of Jack Ryan- the title character- than we have. He should be developed further. They have time to do it, but they should put some real focus there next season. I was relieved Ali couldn’t bring himself to kill the family. I really didn’t want to see that. But- it made total sense to me why Suleiman told him to kill all witnesses. I found Victor’s story unnecessary. And more than I wanted to see on multiple levels. One problem with having quickly watched the whole series- the episodes have blended together. I can’t quite remember exactly what happened in a given episode....and I don’t want to spoil anything

Yeah. I don’t get his lack of reaction to his father’s lies either. At the same time, he doesn’t run and tell his dad they’re in America. Suleiman finds out via the game. Totally unlike how he found out the girls were leaving.

Yeah. It could have. But I’m glad we got to hear the story anyway. It was character building, relationship building, and relevant to what had gone on. I can ignore that the story could have waited.

I feel like part of the problem is they’ve been underwritten. The relationship is like an afterthought. So is Cathy. Sometimes their scenes work imo; others, they seem tossed together, not thought through or given much depth. I go back and forth. But I definitely think the writers need to handle them differently somehow next season. It does make me glad that the focus is on Greer/Jack. That relationship works, is interesting and is being nicely developed. The actors have very good chemistry too. I don’t expect Cathy to guess he’s CIA, but I do expect her to be more questioning about what he really does. Seems weird that she doesn’t. The Victor plot is what really feels out of place. Most of it doesn’t connect to anything else that is happening. That seems like a waste.

Thank you. Why she got shot has been confusing me. That makes sense- he didn’t know she was a cop.

I really enjoyed the series. Wish we didn’t have to wait so long for S2. I think the relationship between Jack and Greer is very well done. They actors play really well off each other. I look forward to watching it continue to evolve. I’m glad it’s the central relationship of the show rather than the romance because the romance doesn’t work as well. Spending more time on the bromance wouldn’t hurt. It plays to the show’s strengths. Speaking of the romance, I think they need to work on Cathy and the relationship with Jack next season. It’s not quite clicking imo. I’m not sure how to fix it, but the character and relationship need some work. I do wonder if they boxed themselves in a bit by having her specialty be so tied to this plot. I don’t think they’ll repeat it next year- I’ve gathered from interviews that they know they need to diversify their storytelling. But- still- I’m not sure it did her character any favors. JK did a good job playing Jack, showing him as both a fish out of water, but with obvious skills and talents in the field that can be improved on. I do think they should devote more time to him next season though. I understand wanting to flesh out other characters too, especially Hanin and Suleiman, but Jack is the title character. They need to flesh him out further. Build his relationships more. The Victor plot was basically a waste imo. Except for saving Hanin, he tied into nothing. The airtime could’ve been used better imo. One episode would have sufficed for him. Regarding the finale specifically: I liked how Jack killing Suleiman directly tied back to when he didn’t shoot his brother in a crowd. He listened and learned from Greer. It also showed Suleiman’s downfall was his family. That’s why he stopped. IIRC. I thought it was a good call that Jack was unsure about Samir’s future. He fought for him, he hopes for the best, but is undecided. I think he’s likely fine. But Jack’s uncertainty ties a bit back to the kid suicide bomber. Who can know for sure? Ending the episode by putting clear focus on Greer/Jack made me particularly excited about next season. With a few tweaks this can go from a very good show to a great one.

I don’t think it was all an act with Nina regarding Stan either. But I think her feelings for him were complicated at best- even before Vkad’s death. He successfully blackmailed her, resulting in her risking her life, betraying her country.....How exactly she felt about him is difficult to say imo.

I see Philip liking the idea of disappearing into America more than actually handing information over to the Americans. It fits someone who still cares about home better. Someone who never can quite let it go, even when he wants to. I do agree Elizabeth helped keep Philip focused or grounded, if you will. He liked that about her though. He didn’t see it as a bad thing. He probably did need that to some extent. Philip could become someone else- anyone really- very easily. He’s that adaptable. But I don’t think he regretted her or the major choices he made. When he felt strongly enough about things- he did them.

Yes- Elizabeth thinks him asking her to drop it is more proof he doesn’t care about home. We know he still cares. It’s that he sees this as destroying them all. He sees it as a pointless sacrifice. Why give up everything for what you believe to be a virtual suicide mission? He’s suggesting using discretion in her jobs. Thinking about it! Save herself for other clients who need her. I kinda wish Philip had pointedly said that- how totally screwed they all are if she gets herself caught/killed. We know it. They know it. But I wish it had been said. It wasn’t a minor issue. And while that’s always a risk, something can always go wrong, it was clear this was easily about the most deadly mission they’d knowingly undertaken. But E couldn’t let it go, and P was unwilling to not try and help save her because he loved her. He probably did at least save her life by being there. At least it wasn’t all for nothing for him....

Well Philip said he willing to defect without Elizabeth in the Pilot. So- had he wanted to before the Pilot or after- he could have imo. In the Pilot, he killed Timoshev and opted out. And a rather big motivation at the time was fear anyway- fear of Stan. I think defection had far less appeal once he determined Stan wasn’t onto them. He was also willing to do what he thought was best, regardless of her opinion or the consequences to either one of them on other occasions. Beyond the Pilot. That was all S6. So, I think if he’d have really wanted it, things would have been said/handled differently. The usefulness of spying/general burnout was Philip’s running issue imo. He liked the idea of normal life too. That’s not the same as defecting imo. Regarding S1: Philip wasn’t going to run away without his children, anymore I think, than Elizabeth would have. Irina and Gregory made similar suggestions to P and E about running away-and neither went for it. Additionally- P and E love other. So, they’re not interested in running off with their exes, regardless of the fact they’re not getting along at the time. And E would have had to quit spying. Lol I have my doubts E/G saw each other that frequently. There wouldn’t have been time. Elizabeth had a very busy life. And Gregory didn’t live down the street. IIRC Philip is talking about spying not defecting when talking to William. He’d like to be done spying. He and William are both burned out. They’d like to be normal. William himself was a patriot to the end- despite his doubts. He killed himself so he didn’t betray anyone. Philip is meant to parallel William imo. And yet- when Philip is given the chance to go home and be totally done with spying, even he can’t destroy the Breeland tape. I think Philip, like William, was pretty complicated and couldn’t let go as easily he wanted to. He wanted it to be that simple, just be done with it, but it wasn’t. Just like he couldn’t walk away when Oleg came to him for help. Cutting the cord was easier to say for him than ultimately fully do. I do think Philip later realized he’d like to do something normal, but more meaningful than travel agenting.

The only thing I’d add about Philip helping Elizabeth with Harvest is that when he suggested her coming home- he was responding to her basically saying she thought she was going to die. He didn’t want her to die for nothing. She’d never been that hopeless before. He knew- and she knew- that him helping her, while helpful, the mission was likely to fail anyway. Stan picked up something being off about Philip because Philip was that worried this mission would just end in total disaster. Even with him. As it was, they were fortunate it didn’t. And it’s mostly because P/E are that good. I get Elizabeth asking what happened to him, but still- this mission was basically suicide. They both knew it. They got asked the impossible. It could very easily have ended with 3 dead illegals, rather than the one. Or an arrest if they didn’t commit suicide by cop first. Or Elizabeth took the cyanide.

Well, the closest I came to saying any of that is saying Elizabeth had likely been unknowingly pulling away from Gregory as she changed over the years. And I stand by that. She was not who she had been when she met Gregory by the Pilot. I don’t recall anyone disputing the length of the E/G Relationship, that the marriage wasn’t real until Timoshev- it changed over the years- but romantic no, or that E wasn’t serious about Gregory. But- then- in my mind....Philip wasn’t just dying to defect all the time and only didn’t because of his obsession with Elizabeth. Doesn’t fit his character at all imo.

I don’t think Philip failed at capitalism either. But I don’t think he was overly enthused by his experience with it. But- Philip would have literally had to have been Henry to ever have had the opportunity to do exactly what he wanted- or even think about it. I don’t think Philip played what if that far though- not sure he really thought about what else he might have done. Even if he had really wanted to go to the FBI- and I don’t think he did in the end- he was never going to get to do anything he wanted. The options would always be limited. His play at being a travel agent was about as close as he could get to trying out being an average American within the parameters of the life he had. In this show the FBI didn’t hide people that well. Sofia and Gennadi would say otherwise. Timoshev wasn’t well handled. Or Anton- he wasn’t in hiding, I know. But he wasn’t super protected either. My point about Oleg is that Philip chose not to leave his past behind when Oleg found him. Philip was playing the average American part as best he could- but he still wasn’t American at the end of the day. Obviously Oleg wouldn’t have found him- much less gone looking for him- had Philip defected or disappeared prior to S6. But Philip didn’t want to do that imo. We don’t know about his mother. But I suspect she’s dead. She wasn’t at the family dinner with Philip’s brother’s family. Honestly? I just like knowing Philip has a son and a brother to go home to. I may not know as much as I want to about him, but I like knowing that.

I’m not so sure Philip blocked his childhood out in general so much as he simply didn’t remember it all or hasn’t really thought about it in a long time. It was a long time ago. I think he remembered the basics just fine. It’s not like he forgot his family or that they grew up impoverished or Irina. He certainly remembered his dad died at age 6. They don’t seem repressed to me. And it didn’t seem to make him afraid to go home. He seemed okay with that to me. He knew life would be easier for his kids if they could stick with what they knew, but he didn’t seem to think it was a bad place to go back to. I think @sistermagpie is right about Philip connecting with his past over the course of the series, which makes him a more complete person. I think he really tried to let go of the past for a long time- since he was literally living a different life. And found that didn’t work. He seemed to gradually think more about home as the series progressed. Even though he tried out being Philip in S6, in some ways he’d already moved past that. If that makes sense. I think it’s interesting that both play out their “dreams” from S1 and don’t care for them after all. Of course- both had changed a lot since the S1 Pilot too. Philip isn’t really the All American capitalist. Nor can he disappear into America and just leave his own country fully behind. (If he could- Oleg would have gotten nowhere with him.) Elizabeth got to be just the spy. And no one was happy. I’m not sure Philip’s life would have been radically happier or different with a different wife. Too many variables really to know for sure. Of course- this depends on your POV of Philip and the marriage to begin with. Philip still would have been a spy in America, struggled with the usefulness of the job, been married to a woman he was assigned to. They might or might not have fallen in love. They might have been truly incompatible. They might or might not have had an overly curious kid like Paige. Who knows.... I get why Philip slept with Irina. I think he could have articulated it too. He had just found out Elizabeth had been informing on him for years. He was angry, felt betrayed. This was on top of the Gregory bombshell. He sees his first love who KNEW him, called him by his real name. She still cared for him. Philip, to me, clearly was still very fond of Irina. They said they’d been looking forward to seeing each other, and I don’t doubt it. I like the story. It wasn’t completely well thought out, but I like it. He lied because he knew Elizabeth would be angry- and she would have been imo.

I would basically agree with this. I find it difficult to comment too much on Philip’s feelings on the USSR vs the US because he didn’t say too much on the subject. We know he had issues with both countries. We know he understandably liked some of the amenities in the US. But he didn’t give a compare/contrast list of his feelings. Philip simply didn’t say much about his past. And even less about how he felt about it. It’s difficult to draw too many conclusions on a subject he didn’t dwell on. It was difficult. That is certain. But- he neither came across as proud of having a really tough life (ie Elizabeth or Claudia), nor bitter, angry, hateful like going home would be a fate worse than death ( that would be Alexei- who wouldn’t return for his son). He seemed more matter of fact about it to me. It was what it was. I don’t think he was haunted by it. His flashbacks in S5 were centered around the truth about his father more than anything. He didn’t have a tone of horror about himself or his kids going to Russia. It would be an adjustment, he knew. The real issue was whether it was their home, where they belonged imo- not whether it was an okay place to live at all. FWIW- the happiest I ever saw Philip was in Russia with Irina. That doesn’t mean I think he loved her more or anything- simply that he clearly had happy memories of home. I think there were more. An impoverished childhood doesn’t mean there weren’t good times, happy moments. But again- he didn’t say much; so there isn’t much to say. I would agree that the S6 conversation was primarily about what the future of the USSR would be: for Philip, Claudia, Elizabeth, Oleg, and Arkady. The conversation was not centered around nukes. It was about home. Mostly though- my feeling is this: much about this show can be left for interpretation. However, the fact that Philip was motivated by and cared about his country’s future is to me very explicit. He repeatedly expressed that it mattered to him in the dialogue in S6. Why he cares or if he should care is a different matter. But he did care.

I never said he thought the USSR was better than the USA. Yes- he had issues with both countries. That’s obvious imo. Never said he had fond memories of home either. None of those things are my arguments one way or the other. Those are not and have not been my arguments regarding Philip. I hardly see Philip not always following orders as the only reason Arkady chose Philip. He’s not picking a man for a mission this important who didn’t care about home anymore. That defies logic imo. I am saying Philip cared about the future of his country, which he explicitly stated was the case. Whether anyone thinks he should care about its fate or not, he did imo.

We’re just not going to agree on any of this. Not defecting, not Philip’s relationship with Elizabeth, not his feelings for his country, not his motivations. It wasn’t USA vs USSR, but it was for both the world and his country. He said so. BOTH mattered. To him and to Oleg. That was the whole season. It’s what made it so good. It was about what kind of world and country they wanted. And what they were willing to sacrifice for it. I can say Philip did this for his country because he made it more than clear that determined his actions. Yes- he wanted fewer nukes. Benefits the world. He also made it clear that he liked what Gorbachev was doing- that was worth protecting. He liked the openness. He liked the changes. He flat out said so. He cared. He’s not arguing with Elizabeth about home because he doesn’t care. He said he cared who the leader of his country was. And- as he said to Elizabeth- he put their country first- above her. He meant all of that imo. As usual with Philip- he’s capable of caring about more than one thing. Arkady didn’t pick Philip because he only cared about the world and not about his country’s future. He picked him because he did care that much about all of it. Like himself. Like Oleg. He didn’t carefully read Philip’s file and say- here’s a guy who doesn’t care about home anymore. That’s the man to hang this on. He’s the man I want to spy on his wife and stop a coup. He knew he cared about all of it. But- we are clearly not going to see Philip the same way.

Exactly. You summed it up perfectly. It’s worth noting that when Arkady is persuading Oleg to persuade Philip to spy, he explicitly states Philip may need to kill Elizabeth. Now- Oleg naturally doesn’t frame his argument to Philip in this manner, but Philip isn’t stupid. He’s well aware that while he and Oleg could die or be put in prison for their role in trying/failing to stop the coup, should things go in the way they hope- ELIZABETH could be killed or put in prison by their side of the coup stoppers for treason. Elizabeth and Claudia reference as much in the end too by stating the trouble Claudia and the others are in. Elizabeth may not have been aware of everything going on, but that certainly would not have been an excuse. Now- Philip is obviously hoping it doesn’t come to that. But he is willing to roll the dice for what he believes in. And Elizabeth could wind up on the wrong side of things- and he’d have helped to facilitate it- if she doesn’t turn. That is one of many reasons in my view Philip is not making decisions based on some obsessive love for Elizabeth. And frankly- if I’m to believe Philip is just dying to defect, then I practically have to buy Oleg is too. They both see things in a very similar manner. But I don’t buy it. They want to make things better at home- not hand over vital national security information and get their own killed. I realize there is a difference between Philip having a family and built a life in the US, but the 2 men’s issues are remarkably similar. And both opted to risk it all and return to spying FOR their country. Sounds like a couple of wannabe defectors to me.....only not.

I also think that Philip cares about HOME. Whatever name the place may be called. Whatever is going on- good or bad. Keeping the homeland safe. Seeing things better at home. It’s not just the current government or communism. If he thinks he can help somehow, he’s all in. As S6 made perfectly clear imo. Seeing as WWIII never broke out- that is a win imo. Fewer nukes- win. Their intelligence helped in other ways too at times, regardless of the ultimate fate of the Soviet Union.