Erin9

I’m picturing the FBI actually putting the story out there that they figured out who 2 spies were ....and lost them. Then, journalists can pound them for being stupid AND start digging into enormous intelligence failures going back decades. Nope. IMO- The FBI buries this imo. It’s total humiliation. It’s humiliating within the US and it is probably even worse outside the US. The FBI would be a complete laughingstock. If they can avoid that, they will imo. There’s no reason to make this public. None of the other illegals ever became public knowledge. No reason to think this will be different imo.

Philip and Elizabeth are more than capable of keeping quiet. No worries from me there.

Also, meant to mention it earlier, I’m not sure it’ll be common knowledge that Philip and Elizabeth were spies. If they’d gotten arrested or killed, sure. But what actually happened is pretty humiliating to the US government. Not sure they’ll be broadcasting this failure. @sistermagpie All I could think of when you said Philip is her “window into life” is Elizabeth drawing the plane window. She came a long way in the end. She never would have made it without Philip especially- and to a much lesser extent Erika’s drawing lessons. Philip absolutely knows Arkady sent Oleg. Oleg told him. ICAM- it is fitting that the rebels are the thoughtful people who care about others. I just re-watched the scene where Elizabeth decides Paige is like her because she’s interested in causes, changing the world/making the world a better place. It actually struck me as funny this time that she relates it so directly to herself- and only herself. Philip wouldn’t be a spy in America if those types of things didn’t interest him. He talks about them in a different way, but it’s the same basic idea. Philip is just more personal about it. If he wasn’t interested in changing the world- he definitely wouldn’t have bothered to help Oleg and Arkady.

@Umbelina I appreciate your posts too. They are always thought provoking. Even when I disagree. ( From a 100% real world POV, I actually agree more. But I don’t apply them to this show.) Honestly- about the only line I draw between our fictional plot in 1987 to 1991 is that the USSR falls/Gorbachev is removed from power. That’s it. Anything else takes in too many variables that start from a fictional plot in a show that adhered to reality only to a point. I’m not drawing conclusions on anyone’s fate because the next coup succeeds. Who knows who exactly survived #1 to be involved in #2, much less who knew what about the players on both sides of #1. Basically- I take the same stance as @Plums.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree......I don’t see it that way. I certainly think Arkady came up with a plan. It was highly dangerous, not 100% suicidal to try to stop the coup. Otherwise, why bother. Claudia rambling about how Elizabeth had ruined everything, that they’d all go to jail- sounded pretty dire to me. She wasn’t confident. She seemed to believe they were defeatable.

I like the idea of separate threads to deep dive episodes, if possible. It’s less confusing and more organized. There aren’t many things to me that are absolutes- due to the Americans world that was established and that there is no real way of knowing where these people will be emotionally in 5-10 years. Off the top of my head: Henry and Paige will never have US government jobs. Philip, Elizabeth and Martha will never return to the US. Most other things- are up for debate imo. I may have strong opinions on them. But they’re not absolutes. Like @Plums- there is a lot about the wrap up I liked. Elizabeth blew their life in America. I wish she knew it, but she was the one who got the FBI on their trail. I wish Philip knew it too. Her blind loyalty cost them dearly. I loved that Andre outted them. The ONE time they do something for themselves- and it’s a fatal mistake. Ouch. I like parts of the Pastor Tim story. We saw much more of him than we needed and I do FF parts of it. But- I like that he kept his mouth shut. And really- he’d made his bed a very long time ago. No real surprise he stuck to it. Same with Stan. Once he let them go, that was it imo. He made his choice. It wasn’t surprising to me that he lied to Aderholt. Self preservation is a pretty strong motivator anyway. As Stan once said- no one thinks they’ll commit treason. To quote Star Wars- roughly-“once you start down the dark path- forever will it dominate your destiny.” A tad over the top, but it fits. Lol IMO- he’ll shut up to protect himself, Paige and Henry from further fallout. And Paige can and will shut up imo. My feel on the coup is- as I’ve said- they’ll be fine. I got a general feeling of safety when they saw Arkady. Now- rounding up the coup members may take some time and there is room for FF on how it all plays out. It may be awhile before everyone feels or are completely safe. There could be some danger. But I think they’ll be fine in the end. That they were able to sleep in the end and talk outside in Moscow about other things spoke volumes. They sure didn’t act like death was imminent. I’m sure Arkady has a plan- a plan they must have had confidence in. They may help him execute said plan too. Really- Arkady never would have set the ball rolling if he thought it was pure suicide for everyone, including himself. Dangerous, highly risky, yes. He had to believe that IF he got the plot details, there was a way out for them. And he did get them. He had to have various ideas/plans on what to do next. As for Claudia knowing about Elizabeth: Well- much as I don’t buy her letting E walk, she did. So who knows what she does next- besides try and get home. Claudia may choose not to tell anyone about E or she may not have a chance to tell anyone. She has her own problems- that’s clear. She was pretty devestated last we saw her. It seemed to me she was in more danger that Elizabeth, the way the show chose to play it. Of course, she thought Moscow already knew all, but still- they know in the end. Also- Claudia has no idea about Philip’s involvement. She might suspect, but she knows nothing. Elizabeth didn’t tell her that. Philip, Elizabeth, Arkady, Claudia, Stan and Oleg all ultimately cared about the country/world. The story, partly, was what kind of world/home did they want. What sacrifices would they make for it. This is obviously less of a thing for Stan, but he’s still part of it.

I’d be up for the re-watch. But it would be nice if we could do it without spoiler tags. That would be annoying. I’m so obsessed with this show. lol Regardine the submarine episode- I’ve always liked that the official story blamed the KGB and Americans- but in reality I think it was the military covering themselves. I’d never fully thought through that what Arkady’s response to Oleg meant was: we can’t tell anyone else. We’re stuck taking the fall. Yep- it really is no wonder the 2 work together later to try and get rid of the corruption. And Philip was the perfect guy to help. Even as distanced from everything as he was, he got the reality of the situation just the same. He didn’t know the scope, of course, but he knew he was being lied to, that the government was screwing up. That being said- it’s not a stretch for me to buy that governments have and do put out false info for spies. I do think the coup opened Elizabeth’s eyes up to a lot. Once she finally fully accepted she had gotten lied to, and there was no good reason she could tell herself for it- that would just open the floodgates to what else she got lied to about. And accepting it as wrong. One interesting thing about Philip: he still consistently refers to Russia as “home” when that’s the appropriate lingo to use. He never distances himself in the way he could have from it by always saying Russia. Of course, when he’s referring to the government or certain generalities, he’ll refer to Moscow or Russia. But it’s interesting. Philip was Americanized....to a point. That’s not to say I don’t think he saw America as home in a sense too, just that he never distanced himself from the Motherland either.

I don’t really see Philip becoming closer or more distant from the US as being primarily about Mischa. It’s a motivator for sure. Philip always comes across to me as someone who cared about his people- ie Russians. Philip’s issues to me were mostly spy burnout, the correct belief that the centre would lie and manipulate them, that the government had problems serving their people properly, and that they didn’t always know what they were doing- as William put it. In general- he always liked certain American perks. That never changed. And S6 was about Philip risking everything for his country. And the world. Lol In many ways he was pulling away from the US in S6 because he was pulled back into spying for the homeland for a mission he truly believed in. And he chose to get pulled in. He could have stuck to his original it’s not my problem.....but that’s not Philip. But ICAM that Philip was highly motivated about everything Afghan because of Mischa. That was very personal to him. Even before Gabriel confirmed his existence in S3. It definitely motivated him in S2. Philip flipping out in the restaurant is a great example. Mischa leaving Afghanistan and going home to the USSR would be another more personal motivator for Philip to always care deeply about what was going on back home imo. It wouldn’t be a reason for him to turn more toward America just because his son was safe. I like Duty and Honor. I just try not to overthink it.lol I liked the brief glimpse of a young, ambitious, excited, idealistic Philip who was in love. I liked knowing he’d loved someone else. I wonder if the writers had decided where he was from already. She said he’d like the trees, more rural parts of Canada, she may have mentioned the colder climate too. I think it’s interesting that P/E’s first loves are people who are very similar to themselves. Irina ultimately burned out on spying, believed the centre didn’t care about them. (Though her younger self was more dutiful, a bit like Elizabeth.) Gregory was a mission first type.

IA- I think it would take time for Stan to get to that mental place. He has to deal with the fact that he, a CI FBI agent, was best friends with someone he was hunting. And he didn’t see it. For years. It’s humiliating. And it goes without saying that it is very hurtful to get lied to- even though Philip wasn’t trying to hurt him. But I see him able to reach that point of objectivity. Philip and Oleg already laid groundwork for him. And honestly? I think talking to Henry might be helpful. Because I see him trying to explain things to him in the kindest way possible- and that will mean really thinking about parallels between himself and Philip, KGB/CIA, what it means to love your country that much, etc. That won’t fix the lies and deception, but it’s a start. And again- Philip started that ball rolling for him. I always thought of Aderholt as mostly being kind, and compassionate to an old man- Martha’s father. He loved his daughter. He was in denial about her actions. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen the episode, but I didn’t think Aderholt had much sympathy for Martha then either. But perhaps he did come to realize that it wasn’t as simple as saying Martha was evil. The end. She had good qualities- traitorism aside. Stan just struck me as cold. Martha was a traitor, and, because of that, he just couldn’t really be kind and understanding to her father at least. I hadn’t thought about it, but yes, I can see Stan really hating that Martha couldn’t give up Clark, but Stan could give up Nina. He had been in her shoes. It was close. He almost was Martha. He probably did hate that he came so close too. He also probably did know deep down Nina was a triple agent. I think the most he allowed out loud was a maybe when Aderholt floated it to him. What’s interesting is: he didn’t think any less of Nina for betraying HER country. Of course- he was the one who blackmailed her into it. And he hated the USSR. But still- interesting that he wasn’t disgusted that she would just betray it. He had no compassion for Martha turning on the US for love, but Nina turning from the USSR to avoid prison was okay. But I get why he differentiated between the two. He could get turning on the USSR- that evil empire. Turning on the US for any reason was a totally different thing of course! So, if Philip’s betrayal had been like Martha’s - he was Stan’s best friend, a real American and had turned either before or after meeting Stan- forget it. That would be hopeless. But I think Stan can ultimately understand lying in the service of one’s own country. Even the USSR. Especially after Oleg and Philip’s passionate speeches on the subject of caring about their homeland/family/people just as Stan did his. But any scenario I have of P/S talking and being in a good place is years down the line.

@Plums Yeah. They did set Stan up a long time ago to basically let P/E walk- without making it at all obvious that he would. It’s impressive. The Nina situation foreshadowed his ability to go through with it for someone he was closer to when he wasn’t giving away something like Echo. Not to mention, Nina’s fate haunted him. I suspect Oleg being stuck in prison has and will bother him. He KNOWS Oleg was doing a good thing for both countries. It’s not really “right” what happened to him. Letting P/E go maybe alleviates a little of the sadness and frustration for him. They were serving their country, but they weren’t traitors to his- a la say Martha. Your future very optimistic scenario is basically the one I’ve made up too. Within this world, I totally buy both Paige and Stan working together and shutting up. Both are capable of secret keeping. I suspect Henry will later be in on the fact Stan let them go. It just makes sense to me that they’d let him in on it. It would also be an easy way of getting to tell Henry some of the relevant things Philip said in the garage. It wouldn’t surprise me if Stan retires shortly after. I can see him just being over all of it. He’ll certainly never go back to CI. Renee will be quickly outted as a spy, which I can come up with ways for Stan to handle without revealing who he got the idea from. The guys best friend was a spy. May as well do a deep dive into the rest of his life. It’s funny you should mention Stan and Philip talking in the future. I’ve made up scenarios that have Stan tagging along with Paige and Henry to visit Philip. I think Stan recognizes all the parallels between him and Philip- they just served different countries. Both men could get behind world peace, both burned out by spying, were patriots, fathers, spies, even killers, etc. Even though Stan didn’t know it at the time, he and Philip clicked for a reason: they mostly got each other. He’d also be able to make comparisons between the KGB and CIA. Again- just playing for a different team. Oleg really tried to drive home to him that they’re all just people like anyone else- most of whom want the same things. I think it’s clear Stan took that to heart in the end. As for Elizabeth/Stan- I don’t factor her in much at all. He and Philip can meet on their own or with the kids or he can tolerate Elizabeth’s presence, but not engage with her. She and Stan were never close to begin with. He was close with Philip first, then Henry, and finally Paige....Elizabeth was part of the family obviously, but he had no real relationship with her anyway. She’d be the hardest one to reconcile with though. (Story of Elizabeth’s life it seems.)

IA- I think they hadn’t fully fleshed out where Philip was going yet. The part about the money threw me too. Philip liked some of the western perks, but he never wanted to get rich. That wasn’t what drove him. It was weird. I think what they really wanted to establish in the pilot- and stuck with- was Philip prioritized family/people, and Elizabeth country/mission. But both still cared about the other’s priority. That’s what made the show, as you said. And that’s where the show went. It emphasized the point that they needed each other. Their marriage wouldn’t have worked if Philip truly didn’t care. Really- Elizabeth’s near single minded focus is one of the things Philip loved about her. (But he wasn’t afraid to tell her when he disagreed either.) It’s her dominant character trait. He had to see it as a mostly good thing. She was “amazing.” And that devotion had to be a part of him too all along. Which we saw repeatedly when he’d soldier on when he was told he was really helping someone. That was his big motivator....all the way to the end of the show I do think, as Philip said in the end, he was terrified Stan knew all when they met. He did want to protect his family. That fits. So- I think that drove some of his actions in the pilot. But it doesn’t explain them all. I like the idea of Philip getting lost in his own character- and snapping back after killing Timoshev. It would explain that attempt at affection scene with Elizabeth. And somewhat the money aspect and the delusion that Timoshev was all they seemingly had to offer- or would have to give up. Even Elizabeth didn’t mention what they’d really have to give up. And- she supposedly was about to just let him defect too before Timoshev opened his mouth. It doesn’t really fit them or what the reality of defecting is at all. Philip usually seemed to have a pretty decent grasp on the reality of the situation. Not always, of course. The whole defection argument was about the least reasonable I can recall him acting. Least thoughtful. I always saw Philip killing Timoshev as a way for Elizabeth to see how much Philip loved her. I think Elizabeth came across as a better mom after the pilot too. Other than in S6 with Henry, she never seemed quite that remote again either. Regarding Stan- he comes across in the pilot as a normal, average, well-adjusted FBI agent with a stable, happy family. He had a bit of paranoia, but that’s it. He seemed like he’d just be a good guy. That’s it. They moved on from that fast. By episode 2 I think they started showing cracks. This pilot is one of my favorites ever, but they made some clear character shifts after the pilot.

Was Timoshev really the only time defecting was a possibility? P and E had a ton of valuable information. Maybe so, but it seems like they would have a lot to offer themselves. How valuable to the US was Timoshev still anyway? Sure- the FBI wanted him back. But I assume he’d already told them everything. He was just giving speeches on what I assume the FBI leads already knew. If they didn’t, they should have. Especially if he’s just wandering around DC. True- Elizabeth was certainly moved that he killed Timoshev for her. He seemed to be their best bargaining chip for defecting for whatever reason, though I find that hard to fathom right now. IA- WITSEC is not the same as going to Russia, but he was still very blasé about telling them everything- which he never was again. I think initially Philip thought of Stan in terms of “keep your friends close, your enemies closer.” Then, he actually saw Stan as a friend. Which was dangerous. No matter what though, the biggest single issue was that Stan lived close by and knew what they looked like imo. Sure- he wouldn’t likely be super focused on their comings and goings, but he knew their faces. In the end the FBI knew who they were because Andre saw their real faces and Stan/Aderholt knew what they looked like. Although Aderholt wouldn’t have known them had they not been friendly with Stan. ETA- on the subject of defecting, it seems to me they could have- if they REALLY wanted to defect- given the FBI other spies. It would have meant stabbing people they knew in the back- or people in their shoes. But possible. They could have given the FBI the whole operation much sooner rather that wait for Harvest’s asset. It’s hard to believe that wouldn’t have been valuable all by itself.

So true. :) The writers did a great job of pulling S1 threads. I rewatched the Pilot. Their conversation on defecting is particularly interesting now that the show is concluded. Elizabeth thinks it’s not too late for the kids to become something other than 100% American. Philip says it’s too late- they are. And he was right. She gave up on Henry. Tried with Paige- but I think deep down she knew it wasn’t working. She sounded like someone trying to convince herself that Paige could be kinda Russian and a spy. Truthfully- unless they had to go back to Russia when the kids were VERY young, it was too late a long time ago. Elizabeth flips out and says they agreed the kids would never know that they’re spies, that they’d live their own lives, the kids would hate them if they knew. Interesting given that when orders from the centre changed- she tries to change with them. But- she was always hesitant about telling Paige they were spies in the end. Even Gabriel pointed out she wasn’t actually doing it. And she was clearly hesitant about really recruiting her given how much she didn’t want to tell Paige about spying realities. Even though she verbally followed the party line and tried to play along. She knew all along this was a mess. And so did Philip (except for this one time). Philip mentioned in the garage how terrified he was when Stan showed up. No kidding. He wasn’t thinking clearly at all when Stan showed up: The first and last time he was ever blasé about the kids finding out the truth was here. Plus- the kids would have had the truth AND an identity change/move in the US. They’d have been thrilled. Elizabeth rightly pointed out that Timoshev in their trunk was a great argument for the futility of defecting. He says they wouldn’t be stupid like him. Well- we and they repeatedly saw how good the KGB was about finding and eliminating traitors- timoshev, Gennadi and Sofia (with the kid in the house no less- and if P/E had defected P and H could have gotten killed ), the Russian WWII girl- Natalie, Irina- a spy too....they’d be dead. Would Philip really have been able to go through with defecting- really actually marched Timoshev over to Stan’s and told all? Without Elizabeth no less. He tried to say it wasn’t a big deal that they’d done so much for the country already- but this is a guy who in the end risked getting killed by the KGB because he saw the potential for positive change. He risked his life and marriage for it. Not sure I see him being able to do it. This was also the only time he suggested giving info to the Americans. He was that scared of Stan’s presence. Lastly- much as Philip liked to dream about really being Philip ....I think S6 showed he couldn’t be. I don’t think he liked having a job that wasn’t truly useful. Money making wasn’t something he personally desired anyway imo. And....he still identified with home too much. If they needed help, and he thought it was a worthy mission....sign him up. No matter how crazy it sounded. From the very beginning of the show there was no “happily ever after” possible for all 4 of them.

It really is quite unbelievable that Claudia and Elizabeth let each other walk away. There is NOTHING believable about it. They were on opposite sides of a war when you get right down to it. They were a threat to each other’s visions of their country. And Claudia is very dangerous. Always has been. Elizabeth knows that. Claudia would not forgive this either. I think the writers wanted to go the “creative” route of not killing any major characters. After that episode, I had a feeling they just might not kill anyone. They didn’t. Sure- they may have wanted to show respect between the two- but that respect was essentially GONE due to the enormity of the lie and both women disagreeing on the right thing to do. I think we’re meant to believe Claudia is in more danger than Elizabeth based on how the conversation ends with them. The emphasis is on Claudia and her people being rounded up. Not revenge seeking. But, realistically, P/E’s side needs to round up all of Claudia’s to be safe. I’ll go with the idea that happens in the end, but I don’t buy the women just walking away from each other. When Philip was talking to Stan he specifically says he’s not sure what they’re coming home to because of this Coup plot. It gets a bit lost in the revelation that their message never even made it to Moscow at all and the need for them to deliver it. But- Philip did know they were walking into a lion’s den just by the fact this was happening. And that we know of- he doesn’t even know Claudia knows Elizabeth blew it all. He just knew for sure it was a dangerous situation. The country itself is in danger because who knows what will happen. But an internal war in the KGB is another problem for them. People will be (and have been) choosing sides.

@Umbelina I already “liked” your post on the sparring scene, but it really was amazing. :) ICAM- that Philip saved her life with that. She had NO IDEA how ill prepared she was. And that was fully on Elizabeth. Elizabeth really screwed up there. She simply should not have been trying to train her own kid. Philip knew how over her head she was the minute he saw the two of them. I wish Paige had directly addressed this with her mother. Philip too. But other problems popped up- with Kimmie, Harvest..... It was an act of love. And he had nothing to be remorseful about. I would have been mad if he had showed remorse. She needed the wake up call. He came over with the intent of trying to verbally make a point with her- and when she was clearly not listening and being condescending AGAIN- then he showed her what would happen in the real world. She’ll never forget it. And undoubtedly will think twice before starting a fight again. Yep- Philip’s fully honest 4 minutes with her were more valuable than years of Elizabeth’s training full of half truths. And this is one of the reasons why I tend to like the Paige/Philip scenes more. They are fewer, but literally pack more of a punch. They’re much more honest and real. He’s generally trying to guide her in the right direction. To a point, of course. He doesn’t tell Paige everything, but then, I don’t feel she needed to know all until she decided to be a spy. No kid needs to know- or should know- what their parents do as spies.

Philip Jennings “not being real” put exactly that way is so interesting to me. When Oleg approached him about spying, I mostly thought about it from the POV that Philip would have to go back to spying, have to spy on his wife of all people, and it would be highly dangerous. What I didn’t really think about is: the real Philip Jennings would of course never have been asked to help Oleg, much less cared what he had to say or care that much about the fate of the USSR. Because PJ was American. I wonder if it was kind of like getting ice water dumped over his head to realize he could never truly be Philip Jennings period. He wasn’t going to stop caring about the fate of his own country. And he would answer the call to help if asked - and if he believed in it. I never thought Philip stopped caring to be clear. He cared almost too much. He wanted to really help that badly. But I wonder if Philip fully understood how impossible it was to ever really be the guy he’d pretended to be for so long. Philip is more adaptable than Elizabeth. But Elizabeth is in the best place she’s ever been in to adapt. I tend to think she’d get on well with Mischa. She didn’t like Irina. So it probably works well for her that she won’t be seeing her. But she could separate Mischa from Irina, and that’s important.

I wish we could have had an episode in between Elizabeth thinking for herself/breaking with Claudia for good and the FBI bringing them down. It would have been very interesting. Her (blind) loyalty was used. As Oleg said. How does she feel about her career as a whole now? How does she feel about the centre? Does she wonder what else she got lied to about, what else Philip was right to question? Probably. What did she think would happen after the message got to Arkady? Where was she/they headed? How does she even feel about spying? She was burned out already. Now- she’s realized that just following orders and not thinking things through and asking questions is a mistake. She couldn’t kill that intern either. I’m not terribly knowledgeable on how drawing emotionally helps you, but it definitely opened her up. She is becoming more like Philip. We really needed another episode.

I tend to think Philip will be okay with the fall of communism too. He’s had plenty of issues with the centre and the government. It’s a reason he liked Gorbachev- the hope/promise of change. So- I think he’s the type who sees something is not working and will be fine with the idea of trying something else. He wants to see a government that actually works for its people imo. I’m not sure if he’ll be thrilled exactly. But he’ll be okay with it. I could see him visiting Tobolsk too. I see him having relationships with all his kids at some point. He tried hard with Paige and Henry. That, I would think, would not be lost on them. He and Mischa seem to be a lot alike. He’ll find something useful to do. I tend to think he and Elizabeth would make it. I have trouble deciding exactly how Elizabeth would feel about the fall. She changed so much in the end. Plus, how she’ll feel after 4 years of seeing how it doesn’t work might lead to a different reaction. A few seasons back, I would agree she’d be deveststed. Lost. Now, I’m not sure. And since I think the fall was inevitable and caused for many reasons, I don’t think Elizabeth should blame herself for it. It was coming one way or another imo. I think she’ll generally have a harder time adapting to going home than Philip. She doesn’t have the family he does- though she’s part of Philip’s family. So, she can be a part of his. And who knows- Irina’s gone. And Mischa couldn’t possibly have had much of a relationship with her. She was in Canada. Maybe Elizabeth would get along well eith him. She’d probably find reconciliation with the kids more difficult than Philip would - but I’ll be hopeful on her ultimately pulling it off. But I tend to think she’ll ultimately do just what she told Philip they would do: adapt. They both will. Claudia? She’ll be destroyed by the fall imo.

I think Philip thought being Philip Jennings for real was the answer to everything. Only it wasn’t. Because he’s not Philip Jennings, American Travel Agent at the end of the day. He fantasized about it awhile back, then lived it....but it isn’t who he is. It was probably incredibly depressing to realize something he thought would work for him didn’t. In some ways he’s still the man he always was: one who wants to do good, help his country, be useful. Only now he asks questions, thinks things through, considers what he thinks is right for himself and his country. But that is who he is. He probably accepted that working with Oleg. He knew he was doing the right thing for himself and his country. And was willing to accept what consequences came with that. Even risk blowing things with Elizabeth. He was being true to himself. I don’t see Philip or Elizabeth having any real interest in just making money. They need to do something meaningful.

IA- with both @sistermagpie and with @Plums addendum to Philip as a travel agent. He was good at it- it was the expansion and its fallout where he had a problem. The only thing I want to add about Philip being a travel agent is it didn’t check the box that I suspect working in Transportation didn’t check for Oleg: it wasn’t doing something deeply useful/good for his people/the world. Both men were highly motivated by that. When they quit spying they had no option but where they wound up. Philip was generally a good TA. Oleg, being a smart guy, was I’m sure good at his new role. Arkady, Stan and Elizabeth all alluded to it or directly said something along those lines: these guys really do (or used to) want to do something that truly matters. And next thing you know, both are taking enormous risks to do something they deem important. I think Philip thought being a travel agent would be enough. But it wasn’t. It wasn’t destroying him like spying was, and he was good at it over all and liked working with people, but it wasn’t his passion either. To draw Elizabeth into this, I feel like whatever P/E do going forward, it would be doing something good and useful together for their country/the world. That’s something they have in common. Their through line if you will. And as smart and skilled as they both were as spies, I would think there would be plenty of uses for those kinds of skills, just in a less destructive way for both of them. Whatever that might be. Because that is who they both are. And for Philip there would definitely be something personal about it.

@Plums I would have liked more fun scenes with the kids too. The levity and interaction was nice to see. I like S5 more than a lot of people do too. And a lot of that is the relationship aspects. (I had issues with what they did and didn’t focus on though.) Speaking of that: Another favorite is in S5- the “queen of the rodeo” scene. It was really sweet watching Elizabeth try to take his mind off being depressed and frustrated. Some people saw it as honey trapping, but Philip knew what she was doing imo and went with it. It was really nice. I thought it was interesting that Elizabeth liked Strobert. Partially because it was so rare. But also because it bugged her and not Philip. He saw it as being human. And he was pragmatic enough to see it for what it was and wasn’t: this guy wasn’t a threat. He wasn’t a Gregory. Philip could differentiate. And he probably wished she could have done the same regarding Martha. But then Philip was used to caring about people a bit too much. He understood it. But I never saw a romantic interest per se. She just thought he was a good guy, she liked him, found him interesting. She didn’t want to, but she did. And one of the few funny scenes in S5 was her realizing she wasn’t his only girl friend. Her reaction was funny. I think Philip’s was too IIRC. The only romantic interests I ever saw out of Philip and Elizabeth besides each other were Irina and Gregory. Elizabeth did let attraction/liking someone- or thinking Philip did- affect things. I particularly liked her jealousy over Martha. She didn’t need to be, but I got why she was. And it led to some really good moments between her and Philip. However- I also thought this relationship with Strobert was also meant to show her burning out. She wasn’t that excited about constantly traveling and seeing him either. It’s been awhile, but I remember getting the impression that she would have rather stayed home. Elizabeth of earlier seasons wouldn’t have been thrilled, but wouldn’t have minded as much either. She really minded. (Didn’t S5 have the scene where Philip tossed a laundry basket aside to hug Elizabeth when she got home? I think so. Loved that too.) IA- Elizabeth acted like sex wasn’t a big deal, but it was. The interesting thing was: Philip knew it was. He knew it was a thing, and tried to get her out of it when he could. And, IA, the one time we saw her enjoy it with a mark definitely made her feel guilty- hence the scene with Philip after. I tend to think based on his reaction, he had some idea of what might be going on too. Having Elizabeth, of all people, be the one to fantasize about meeting Philip on a bus was so perfect- it said a lot about her and how she felt about him. It and the rings ALMOST made up for not getting a single ILU from her. Almost. I find both Philip and Elizabeth to be fascinating.

another favorite was when Philip asked if Elizabeth liked anything about being there. That it was okay to enjoy it, like he enjoyed the car- that at least wasn’t a plane. Lol Her answer was classic- it was nicer, easier, but not better. She never did actually answer the question he asked! Very telling imo. She liked it. She just couldn’t admit she liked it. But I think it’s evident she did like certain things, like her shoes. Lol On that subject- Philip and Henry rocking out when they brought the car home was cute. Another favorite of mine.

I thought the opposite: Paige mostly focused on the spy aspect of the job, vague details or not- that’s what she mostly asked about-not their lives pre-US. I don’t think that’s super unusual for someone her age, but she sure wasn’t asking the questions I wanted her to ask, or that I would have asked. She never even asked how Philip’s father died or what happened to his mother. Those are basic questions that I would have expected, teenager or not. And I think they are questions she and Henry would both want answers to someday. Among MANY questions they’d both have. If Paige had asked any more than she already was about their jobs, then we needed to see P/E really shut her down- even more than they should have anyway. They were spies. Doing work for national security. She did not need the details. It was, as Philip said, a JOB. Her mother killing people was framed as doing so in self defense, which was in a manner of speaking true. So, I can see why the sex aspect was a big deal when she finally “got” it- she clearly understood the level of manipulation, potential to ruin someone’s life and- from her POV- infidelity involved. It did come across pretty badly. She knew they got information from people, she really didn’t know all that went into it, in reality. I remember Paige asking if ANYTHING was real, including the marriage, and they said yes. It was true by then. Besides- Paige had observed them over time, when they weren’t focused on her or didn’t know she was there. She also knew there was a bond and understanding there. So- I’m not surprised it never seriously occurred to her that it started as an arrangement. I’m surprised she never asked how they really met though. She may have assumed spy school, but it would have been logical to ask. That was weird. Most kids ask that at some point. Or the first date or engagement story. Very odd imo. Or as immigrants what they they thought when they got to the US. She really was too busy focusing on the spy part. Regarding Paige feeling “outside” the relationship when they put on the real rings...from my POV Paige was about where she needed to be in terms of their relationship. She knew what mattered- it was real. She didn’t need to be “in on” all of it. No kid does. As I stated above, I think she failed to ask basic questions, but that’s a different thing. In my mind- just spending time with her parents, sharing family meals, and growing up with them meant she knew them on some level. Same goes for Henry. They knew likes/dislikes, personality quirks. They could not and did not submerge everything. Philip was more laid back and fun, put more effort into relationships, had a tendency to really think things through. Paige saw less of the intense side of her dad- but it was there from time to time when he got onto her about lying and being disrespectful. The sparring scene should have been an eye opener on his capabilities. Elizabeth was more intense, the more strict one. Less able to loosen up and just have fun- though she did from time to time- like Paige getting her ears pierced. From Henry’s POV, Elizabeth might be more of a mystery because he interacted with her so seldom in the last few years. But he had plenty of time before then, where she was much more interactive.

@Dev F IA that there was some use in Oleg seeing just exactly how messed up things were back home. But I think they didn’t need to have him spend the entire season there to drive the point literally home. And Arkady definitely didn’t need to head home before the end of S 5. We never saw him anyway. (A shame. He was missed.)

For all the time Paige spent with Elizabeth, I’m not sure she knows her that well- or vice versa for that matter. So much of their time was spent in the spy world- which as Philip rightly saw- was not a good thing. That was talking about a job. A job that Elizabeth described with half truths. Eating Russian food and watching TV really didn’t cut it either imo. Sure Paige knows some basics- her dad died at age 2, she was raped, her mother wanted her to go into the KGB, she grew up poor and fast, she wanted to help her country. But so much of Elizabeth was tied to spying and explaining that. Not all the time, but a lot. And more so as time went on. There’s a reason she sadly lost touch with Henry so completely. She stopped being able to engage. Whereas Philip- he talked less and so she knows less- but she knows certain things: his dad died at 6, also grew up poor and fast. Based on the garage scene alone, I think she understood his passion and devotion to his country. It was impossible to miss. I think she also might have recognized some loneliness in him when he emphasized how important Stan was to him as a friend, even with the big lie. Paige gets that. More importantly- she and Henry know that he really tried to give them his TIME, work stress and all, all the way to the end. He talked to them. Had fun with them. Tried to know and be some part of what was going on in their lives. Told them to be themselves. Tried to get Paige to think about she was involved in spy-wise. On a lesser level they at least know he had hobbies and interests that were not spy related- hockey, country music, racquetball, cars, etc. I’m not sure Elizabeth really developed outside interests much.