Airmid

In actual real world texts, he was originally associated with a scapegoat ritual and latter on as a fallen angel that taught humans forbidden knowledge. His punishment for the latter, being bound in a desert while unable to see, is actually referenced when he is first shown in the series through a throwaway line. In the series, they are just some of the first that Lucifer turned and were given some of Lucifer's power so that they would be able to do what they needed to do. It's why they were much more powerful (the first of something in this series tends to be the biggest and then it depletes as it goes) and why their eye color was different, along with their skills at times being more removed from other demons. Why the show didn't just go with Lucifer using fallen angels to rule hell in his steed, no idea, as that would make more sense, especially given that all angels are assholes on this show and aren't that much different than demons in the grand scheme of things. For the new series - I just can't. Somehow, one of the worst moments of the Dabb era for me was the whole John and Mary sharing a heaven and how complete they were together. For starters, all this woman did was lie to John about who she was, who her family was, her entire background, just everything. I don't actually fault her for her deal, anyone in that situation would have extreme difficulty not trading something that seemed maybe harmless far in the future to get at least one of her loved ones back that had been slaughtered in front of her. And I don't necessarily have an issue with her trying to protect John from it. I do, however, have an issue with the rest, along with the fact that the past 15 years have never shown her to have prepared to deal with this - she's just a massive ball of denial which continued after she came back. Add that in with the rest and she's just one character I have no desire to see be made into a saint. Given what was done with her, I just don't care, there's nothing that's going to make up for the last fifteen years worth of stuff she did. John - I have immense sympathy for John pre-fire. Here's a man who thought his own father ran out on him at a very young age, not knowing the truth and having a huge resource taken away from him. We don't know what happened with his mother but given his views on both Henry and some of his choices including shipping off to war at what would have been a very young age to jive with what we know about him, I can't say it would have been good. Then he meets a woman who interests him, get's manipulated to continue a bloodline, and ends up living in a nightmare because all she did was lie to him. Regardless of his choices after Mary's death, I don't have a desire to see John being set up to suffer. He did seem to truly be a good man before his life was shattered, and knowing what happened after, well, don't want to watch that either. I just don't see this show as necessary or in any way redeeming either of these two people. They spent years making John into a monster and making Mary completely unlikeable that to me, it's just disappointing that something like this would even be happening. Even more disappointing is that JA is backing this.

It took me a while to find this but it is from Nightmare. Sam's talking about their childhood vs. Max's childhood - SAM: Well I'll tell you one thing. We're lucky we had Dad. DEAN: (Looking astounded...and pleased) Well I never thought I'd hear you say that. SAM: Well, it coulda gone a whole other way after Mom. A little more tequila and a little less demon hunting and we woulda had Max's childhood. All things considered, we turned out ok. Thanks to him. DEAN: (Turning back to look at Max's house) All things considered. I've seen a lot of pointing to this scene as evidence of John physically abusing Dean due to Dean's response and how he looks at the house as Max was severely abused physically. I would honestly argue that he tends to remember things differently than Sam and may actually want to protest that John was not the driving force of why they turned out okay - especially for Sam. I would think it would be rather hurtful and quietly upsetting to Dean to have Sam stand there and praise John for a job Dean himself did while also keeping John taped together. And it's unfortunately rather in character for Sam to push praise onto other people when it should have gone to Dean while dumping all the negative stuff on Dean's head. Really wished Dean had taken the opportunity to smack Sam upside the head and say, "Really? All thanks to dad?" Or focus to see it through, or attention span, or skill to write large universe encompassing stories... I'd be less bitter if I it was something like fanfic - you know stuff people create in their spare time that they do the best the can with it and sometimes fail. Instead they are writers paid to sit and think and write - like it's their only job and they can't even be bothered to keep simple lore straight. I'd be embarrassed if I treated my job the same way, especially if it was so publicly displayed.

Dean's a rather unreliable narrator, TBH. People praise him and he still views himself as less than crap. Granted, he got very little and those he loves tend to not give him much but he very much has viewed himself a certain way and probably for a variety of reasons including the way he was raised which was pretty much free-ranged. The more interesting thing to me about Dean is his loyalty and devotion given what his life was like. He begged Sam to shoot him, thought Sam would actually shot him through the heart thus killing the thing that started him down this path and it is arguable he may have had a death wish and probably always knew it would end bloody. I'm not exactly sure what people would have liked John to do here, given that he was shot, one son unconscious, the other he was certain willing to kill him, but I can see where his mind is stuck. This is the exact scenario he wanted to avoid when Sam and Dean insisted on coming with him. They were so close to ending it [and since the producers have said that John knew most of what was going on in the first five seasons from their POV], it also would have guaranteed much more readily Sam's safety. I find it all the more creepy and troubling that he truly believed that Sam was far enough removed from the situation that he would shoot his own father dead. I'd say you have a point if Dean was awake and crying for him and he just ignored him but we have a time jump here and later on, John does exhibit true emotion towards Dean even if it is in a messed up way in the S2 opener. I have known people, including having family members, that do this kind of stuff. I wouldn't call it abusive in the way you're suggesting. In my experience, it stems from focusing on the negative, looking for flaws, glass half empty type of crowd. There are control issues yes, but they don't seem to realize that it can be damaging - to them they are stating fact because they want you to fix the situation or they will. Being on the receiving end of this - yes, it can be upsetting but it's an ingrained pattern and if John spiraled into this after Mary died it's easy to see how Dean got certain world views. Plus, their lives had little happiness and little stability adding to the mix. Personally, I don't think that John meant to be abusive in this way - I think he shares that overly-focused trait with Sam and desire for revenge that drove both of them to ruin. We know for a fact that Dean disobeyed, majorly at times, throughout his childhood and young adult life. The big thing he seemed to take away from Something Wicked This Way Comes was that Sam was his responsibility and he needed to follow the rules to keep Sam safe. That shouldn't ever have been his burden, but it ended up being that. But no, Dean wasn't some little rigid solider that always did what John said - though that was certainly Sam's notion and is take at the time. Simply, I believe John had a lot of rationalizations for his behavior. Something spooked him badly in the months following Mary's death that he picked up and just ran. We don't know what that was but he became a hunter really early and in a very volatile and vulnerable state. It shows a lot of paranoia and suspicion - he didn't want to be in one place in case whatever it was found him and worse, his kids. Leaving them with hunters or babysitters or just on their own? It became better in his mind because they were still near enough to him but out of the way. When Sam was attacked by the Striga in their childhood, John was caught off guard and removed them from the area. Here's the actual conversation when John's leaving when Dean was nine: JOHN: All right. You know the drill, Dean. Anybody calls, you don't pick up. If it's me, I'll ring once, then call back. You got that? YOUNG DEAN: Mm-hmm. Only answer the phone unless it rings once first. JOHN: Come on, dude, look alive. This stuff is important. YOUNG DEAN: I know, it's just...we've gone over it like a million times and you know I'm not stupid. JOHN: I know you're not, but it only takes one mistake, you got that? [JOHN continues gathering his things.] JOHN: All right, if I'm not back Sunday night...? YOUNG DEAN: Call Pastor Jim. JOHN: Lock the doors, the windows, close the shades. Most important.... YOUNG DEAN: Watch out for Sammy. [They both look to SAMMY, sprawled on the couch watching cartoons on TV.] YOUNG DEAN: I know. JOHN: All right. If something tries to bust in? YOUNG DEAN: Shoot first, ask questions later. JOHN: (taking his shoulder) That's my man. Dean's rather snarky at young age, not exactly the brainwashed/terrified/completely obedient little trooper. Later on, young Sam's the one that comes off as a spoiled brat, throwing a fit, demanding food that Dean's been saving for himself. No wonder Dean sneaks off - he's nine and being pushed into the role of a parent of a kid that doesn't know anything and he can't talk to about any of this. While John does yell at Dean later when he saves Sam, it comes off as freaked. He also immediately pulls them and takes them to Pastor Jim - so it wasn't like he wanted them for bait [or if he even toyed with the idea immediately dropped it when confronted with the reality]. Dean is the one who blames himself totally for what happened, even with Sam trying to get through to him that Dean was just a kid. In S1, when Sam meets Max and sees what happened to him after his mother died the same way [his father beat him a lot] Sam actually expresses relief that John did what he did - killed things that hurt others like how they were hurt. Later on, in Dead Man's Blood he tells Sam: John: After your mother passed, all I saw was evil. Everywhere. And all I cared about was, was keepin' you boys alive. I wanted you prepared. Ready. So somewhere along the line I uh, I stopped being your father, and I, I became your, your drill-sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy it just, it never occurred to me what you wanted. I just couldn't accept the fact that you and me... we're just different. Again - don't think John ever really got the eye opener he needed until seeing his adult sons and when they first met up in S1, everybody's estranged. Not surprising that John makes remarks about the car, or Sam picking fights, or Dean trying to keep the peace because his family is all the same place finally again after years. They're all tense, John's keeping secrets, and the boys are in the dark. John is not a responsible nor a good parent. He inadvertently damaged his children to pursue his own revenge quest under the guise of saving other people as his only method of coping at that time [and pushed by extreme fear and paranoia]. The John at the start of the series is a deeply flawed, immensely troubled man who seems ready to die and is trying to keep his kids together so they will be safe and away from what he is going to go do. When he caves to let them help him, it's a terrible mistake that costs a lot. There's enough wiggle room here [and the shades of grey cast on things by both Dean and Sam's memories] to feel something towards the man. John is spectacularly messed up. And good grief - everybody drinks in this show. And, TBH, if I was John and spent years finding mangled bodies, dead children, people and friends dying in my arms, I'd probably start up again. Not to mention watching my spouse burn alive on a ceiling and then later finding out she lied about everything on top of being abandoned by my own father and having served in combat during a war. Does he have happy memories of his own?

I worked with victims of violent crimes for several years and honestly - you'd be surprised [and rather depressed] at just how many cases flow the way of the offender regardless of who they are. A lot of it is just time restraints and work overload - the vast majority of cases get plead out, usually right at the start but can be right up to the trial [only one of mine went to trial but had several with 11th hour pleas], and then other factors like reluctant witnesses, lack of concrete evidence, and overall importance. It can be really terrible or it can be life saving, allowing predators free but also allowing people who did something stupid but not out of intent/malice to not have their life ruined. Really depends. Not saying that social status, wealth, race, gender, age, etc. don't play a part - they definitely do but even that comes with a double edge sword. Some people have their entire lives ruined being brought up on charges that they are later proved to be totally innocent of all because they were wealthy/famous/fit the outrage of the day and the media went nuts. On the flip side, I've seen deals I just don't understand go out to nobodys that were way too lenient for heinous crimes. The legal system in this country is really borked and one of the worst things about it is that it's just not accessible to outsiders, which coupled with sensationalist journalism, really doesn't help anyone. Definitely. Especially being in a highly charged situation. I really do hope that he has learned something from this and that he keeps on the sober path - especially with his depression. Alcohol and mental illness are like having your own lingering toxic friends ready to sabotage you at a moments notice. Not something anyone needs.

I always found it hard to tell as sometimes it seemed like his throne room [at least the one he was in] was in hell, while other times it seemed topside. Unfortunately, seeing how even back in S6 when he and Cas were in hell and we saw the souls as how they looked in life, it's even harder to tell directly where he was at the time. But he always struck me as one who would have a cell to use via magic to talk to the Winchester while with something like Abaddon he would have to use a blood bowl. I would also be willing to bet he would use cell phones as much as magic allowed due to it drawing less attention than a trail of dead humans. I doubt the writers/showrunners knew since they even seemed clueless later on that all demons could teleport in early seasons, not just Crowley. I know people got upset that Michael just snapped an entrance for purgatory into existence for them but that at least made a modicum of sense. In lore, he has the keys to heaven and hell, so he should probably have the keys for the rest and he's so powerful he's able to keep heaven in line/universe balanced, and he is officially known as The Viceroy of Heaven - so having an all access pass wouldn't be surprising. Now, just what the handcuffs he was in at the time actually did to him [outside of looking like an annoyance and his/Adam's curiosity to see what the brothers wanted being the main driving factor as he doesn't seem anxious to get out of them] or why they wrote him so stupid later on are a whole other topic. The rest of it though - even Cas being able to get Sam's body out is just head-scratching. Even more salt in the wound was Sam ignoring Dean for a year when such an easy access to purgatory existed via reaper [I don't have a problem with a doorway vs a portal per say, as Raphael/Crowley/Cas wanted to eat souls not go visit, just the execution of it - like that trial should have been two episodes of difficulty], just bouncing in and grabbing Bobby from hell no problem [man, poor Sam here, all those months wishing he would have died instead, drinking himself to death until he was manipulated by a demon when rescuing Dean looks comically easy at that point], both brothers having no issue being in hell again at all [trauma, what trauma], just all of that. They never got that making it easy to fit into a slot in one episode took away mystery. It's so depressing, especially in late seasons. I think both Edlund and Gamble actually did care quite a bit. While people may not always like what they came up with or where their focus was, I definitely think they were invested in the show and tried to do a lot, including Gamble, despite her Sam focus, actually giving Dean things to work with [his lesson with Death that he learned from under her tenure and his amazing Eve kill under her]. Edlund gave us episodes like the superb The Man Who Would Be King [and directed] and IMHO that kind of episode could not have been pulled off if the writer didn't pay attention to what was going on. I also think Yockey cared but got trampled by Dabb's "vision", at the very least he seemed to put in real effort though YMMV on that. Speaking of Home, I rewatched that a little bit ago and I had completely forgotten that John was at the end crying and feeling unable to see his sons until he got things sorted. It's really sad, and raises questions as to where he was in Faith - that maybe he didn't abandon them but he couldn't come to terms with the idea of Dean dying. Given the backstory that they fleshed out for Mary later and given the amount of hunters he knew or knew of in the world, I can't imagine that he didn't come across the Campbells and who Mary really was. Along with eventually doing the math between the death of her parents and her death [especially given that she almost lost him and probably was even more anxious/weird] and worrying that she made a deal. Maybe even something Azazel tortured him with during his possession. All of that makes him a much more sympathetic character for me during the first couple of seasons - too bad they totally threw him under a bus later on.

This is from the Lore thread since my post is more complaint than response/questions about the lore, original post from @Katy M Hmm, under Crowley it seemed to. Though admittedly it was hard to tell half the time just were Crowley was [throne room in hell or raunchy warehouse on earth - you decide!] and demons did resort often to the blood bowl talking spell though they aren't the brightest bunch. The real question for me is why even go to hell to talk to Michael? If the door to the Cage is open and they want to talk to Michael [and it's been weeks at this point so why would he be hanging out outside of trauma], why not secure an area and just pray to him directly? Skip all the pesky murderous demons and give themselves a safety net as Michael was still an archangel. Not like they had any kind of safety net planned if they did actually find him in hell. How did they think that was going to go down, smoke signal SOS to pull the spell and zap them back? Did I miss something about hell being so easy to prance around in? I mean it was bad enough in S8 but they still had to get a rogue reaper and sacrifice Dean's buddy and Sam had to work his way the whole twenty feet to the back door while in purgatory, but still. Rowena had this fancy spell? Did no one, at all ever question what happened to Rowena when she closed the Rift? I admit I didn't watch all the episodes - at least not without copious amounts of FF or simply wandering off for a few to get a snack, so is there a reason why the main characters are just this stupid outside of the writers can't write smart main characters because they can't plot their way out of a paper bag? Dabb's seasons always make me want to tear out my hair on how they diminish characters but it's even worse in the last few episodes. Last holiday for example: - So not even angels/archangels sensed an immensely powerful wood nymph in the Bunker and went to go see what was up? - The MoL figured out that not only were there multiple universes but they built a telescope to view them? And no one noticed this? - A wood nymph is powerful enough to fuel something like this telescope when previously it's been shown to take a whole bunch of archangel grace and complicated spell work for those not named Chuck/Amara to travel between worlds. I mean did Gabriel figure it out, supply some grace decades ago for shits and giggles and just forget to tell anyone about it? - This makes our Michael look so exceptionally stupid. A bunch of humans and a wood nymph not only figure out this big secret but build a device to watch them right under his nose. - A wood nymph was powerful enough to drug something like Jack at all? I mean there's Billie, that for some strange reason was dying from a wound from her own weapon that for other non-mortal characters wouldn't have been fatal. Cas himself has been stabbed close to his 'heart' all the way back into S6 with the appropriate weapon but managed to drag himself back from death. But Death itself can't do this, or is so hell bent on murder that she doesn't take the time to set up the next reaper to finish the whole plan? The past Death was calculating and seemed to have awareness of what was going on around him. Does Death get dumber the more times a reaper has to die to fill the position? How does the whole Death system even work? It seems counter-intuitive and why didn't reapers know this is how things worked? I mean, there were rogue reapers at one point at time, right? And reapers kind of went insane for a bit due to the veil being closed, right? So, did Chuck just make up the Death system rules when Dean offed the old Death? Who reaps Death, anyways, and why would this being ever be reapable? And Jack - for the love of creation - Chuck created everything in the main universe and countless others by his own sheer power. No matter how many being one vacuums up they aren't going to match his core raw power [not to mention being coupled with Amara] and that also doesn't even address the question of how Jack existing in creation with the powers from said creation can wipe out the creation's creator. I know they banged on about him absorbing stuff from The Empty, but she was ready to kick his doe-eyed ass before Billie pulled him out. If something that's been shown to be weaker than Chuck [no matter what the tell is, the show is that this is true], a couple of archangels and some shed power later isn't going to make something strong enough to defeat the being that made everything. Why did Chuck even allow the creation of Jack? Why did he allow Amara to be free and look like he was going to die? His creations have run off on him before and Amara while influenced, was still her own being? Why let things get to this point? I could see the original argument I saw some had that he was so for free will and didn't want a confrontation with her [along with possible guilt] that he allowed the events to progress, but his actions make no sense in light of later seasons. Did the writers ever stop and consider the Michael and Gabriel problem their script? Lol, who am I kidding, of course not. This show...it's always had the problem of pissing on it's own characters and lore. Dean and Sam's hell experiences are an example along with the fandom for some reason arguing which was the worst. Dean was trapped in the pit with his torturer's goal not just being that he break the seal but to demonize him as much as possible from sheer glee inflicting on him an endless self-perpetuating torture until he was demonized and escaped hell. Sam was with a being that didn't want to demonize him but wanted him to suffer, no chance for escape until his soul finally collapsed. They're both horrific in their own unique way but although this show has a love-affair with torture it often doesn't want to talk about the aftermath. Then later on solitary confinement for a few months is the worse thing ever for these guys? Like, was the presence of their torturer the real make or break point for them? Was their torturer that good of a companion? Isolation is horrid, it really is and has lasting consequences, but these guys have been through hell, literally. It would have been nice to see them laugh in the face of this before their "family" got off their asses and came and got them. And weirdly, given their Lucifer fetish, they never address the disastrous consequences of his very, very long period in isolation, especially since angels seem to be social creatures who often do want their family and have their own society even if it's not one we like. And it was even more undermined by Gabriel's handful of years of torture was just so unspeakably bad, or Cas having stupidly allowed himself to be Lucifer's vessel, was just so much worse. Like, really? Or that prancing around in hell didn't affect either one of them - a problem going all the way back to S8 for Sam. I actually would have liked for Sam to be portrayed as actually smart, not just the show telling us this. Like, take for example, his leaving Lucifer in the AU world. It's understandable that he wouldn't want Lucifer to come with. Totally agree. But five seconds of looking at this situation spells out how bad it is. Lucifer knows how to open the portal and Sam ditched him in front of a pissed off being wanting to open said portal to rampage after their one friendly archangel was ganked in front of them. Like - why even wait around while Gabriel is dying? Then to leave another archangel with esoteric knowledge like that's not setting up a revolving door? Thankfully Michael didn't just march his army right on through - though why he didn't as his angels seemed ready to die for him is also a mystery. Poor Sam. I would have cheered if the actual series finale opened with them gearing up to slip into Purgatory to go get another bloom so they could bind Jack [he'd show up, let's be real, he's dumb, they could find a reason to get him to swing by even if it was just a false Chuck alarm] and then let Amara run the universe, no matter how plot stupid she was written the last time we saw her. And finally, Chuck. Why leave him as a human on his own, unsupervised? Like, we've seen what humans can do just through the brothers. Sam accidentally started the end of the world a couple of times here. Chuck knows how the whole entire cosmos works, all the spells that control it, and a lot of anger. At least, I dunno, mind wipe him or toss him in heaven's prison, or something responsible. Though, I mean, it's not like leaving hostile depowered parties to their own devices hasn't bitten them in the ass before...oh, wait. Sorry, wanted to vent and it was therapeutic.

I always forget but Dean was willing to let Sam go after they went to work the case in the pilot - Sam telling him that he had an interview in a few hours and Dean letting it go. It wasn't until he walked in to witness Jess' murder and Dean hearing him scream that Sam really re-entered the hunting life, mainly to get revenge for the murder of his girlfriend [like father like son]. And it always struck me as Sam purposefully separated himself from John and Dean, he even talks about being free from John later to an upset Dean while they're in heaven. And 11 episodes later, in Scarecrow, Sam ditches Dean to go find John and Dean even encourages him and praises him on his supposed self-determination and drive to follow what he wants to do. Seriously. Sam later comes back and helps Dean with the case after not being able to reach him by phone [though it could be argued just why Sam was calling Dean for hours worried sick when he spent years not giving a damn if his family died on a hunt, unmourned and unknown anywhere in America but I digress] and it ends up well for both of them as it gets Sam away from Meg [not that he knows that yet] and helps Dean. Sam does gloat a little but Dean doesn't give him any crap about it and Sam does admit to Dean being all he has and they should stick together. Too bad that final sentiment isn't a constant throughout the rest of the series, along with how Sam views Dean. While at times Dean does get bitter about Sam coming back to him I think I would too, and not necessarily rely on Sam to be there. Sam seems to fear Dean 'replacing' him - even his speech in Sacrifice revolves around that, without ever really coming to an understanding that he's never going to be replaced in Dean's eyes. Dean may try to find people he can rely on and be close to but Sam always comes first, often unfortunately to Dean's determent. It's a character flaw that I've never really liked and one of the reasons why I hate the front half of S8 so much. Sure, Sam having an actual breakdown and having to give up a search for Dean/Kevin/Cas would be fine, or Sam still researching on the side while trying to not be consumed by it like Dean did for him at the start of S6 would have been fine and arguable healthy for him. Sam just prancing off with a woman that never really knew him, even if he did decide to stay with Dean in the end, not so much. I can't think of a time when Dean fully abandoned Sam outside of when he died and became a demon and even then he at least left a note and it was rather obvious on what he was up to. Sam's wandered off quite a few times on his brother and has often enough, come back to make demands to pull the relationship more in his favor. Thinking about this makes the series ending even more depressing for me - just what is their heaven going to be like?

IA and for S4 - Sam had all kinds of addiction problems that were going to cloud his thinking here, especially given the substance. I think if the audience was made privy to what had happened to Sam from the jump or much sooner [sans blood issues], there wouldn't have been a problem with them empathizing with Sam along with the horror and heartbreak that should have happened as he began to succumb to his his addiction at the end. They did try to show Sam wanted to be with Dean in the season finale - which makes sense - and did a good job of it up until he got that voicemail. It makes him look really shallow - he only wants Dean if Dean wants him and after a threatening voicemail [and really, what did Sam expect after almost strangling his brother to death] - just decides "Whelp, time to go bleed that nurse begging for her life in my trunk then" as if doing anything else wasn't an option. I would have much rather preferred it if they'd had him still refuse and then he gets tricked - like thinking Lilith was about to slaughter Dean - to get him over the edge. [Also, having him drink Ruby instead of the nurse would have done wonders for me]. Then having him go kill Lilith with Dean getting there too late. At least his actions would have made sense to a lot more people even if not right or condonable. Instead he looks weak-willed and rather irredeemable and the writing for S5 doesn't go far enough to help him out of his hole - the writers never really seeming to realize just how far they'd buried one of their leads. Man, I in no way think Gadreel was redeemed and I despise the show for trying to make it seem that way. Gadreel was a self-serving and rather gullible angel who was seeking to become the hero to reclaim his tarnished reputation, not because he wanted to do what was right. Which is fine for a character to be - honestly, that's not a bad thing, not everyone is selfless. However, the way he's painted in the series is as an actual hero and the writing even forces Sam to call him his friend. Gag. Sure, Sam may be willing to not light him on fire if he proves useful, but in no way should Sam just suddenly be all okay with an angel who treated him like a hairy crack house to squat in while threatening his family and friends before going on a murder spree. In fact, none of them should put trust in this angel who has shown himself to be so easily led astray.

Pragma. The Greeks have multiple words for a lot of different kinds of love and Pragma is one of them. It's not the starry eyed romantic kind, but when it's successful it does tend to be long lasting and fulfilling. I honestly think Dean had this kind of love with Lisa - he already knew her, knew it wasn't one sided, they had common goals, and wanted a loving relationship. English however gets pragmatism from this word which puts unfortunate/rather negative connotations on it. This and other kinds of love often get overlooked, especially in entertainment, for romantic or familial which can get conflated. It also depends on the person what kind of relationship they get into - but Dean does seem to be more the type for this kind while Sam has idealistic notions of romance without much depth [and sadly, never got to really change that]. Pragma, while being practical, can also be a deep relationship if it's worked at by all involved, it's just not going to have all the bells and whistles of something like Eros would have. My major problem with this is that no one actually asked Lisa. I completely see Dean's point of view and understand his driving desire to keep them safe. However, he wiped out a huge chunk of this woman's life and also Ben's. I mean, I've met real living people who were so totally in love but lost their spouse fairly early on yet remained devoted to them that they never found anyone else. Never had an interest to. Doesn't mean their lives sucked - actually the opposite from the ones I've met. They were happy. I also have a close friend from childhood who ended up marrying the man she always loved after they were separated by life and tragedy for well over a decade, thinking she'd never see him again. Things happen and in the end, it seems like what Lisa would have wanted for her and her child is just assumed, which is where my problem comes from with the whole thing. I'm pretty sure if she hadn't been dying in a coma and he was trying to do that she would have told him to F-off. Sure, block the demon memories, especially for Ben, not come around again, but she doesn't strike me as a character that would have been okay with what happened. And, I want to say it wiped the relationship from everyone's minds but I have a hard to believing that Castiel has that much power. Angels can do things, like unsink the Titantic [and no one seems to mention the really terrible part was that Castiel was generating 50k souls here to give to Crowley] but that's still based in reality. You just turn the ship so it doesn't hit the iceberg - the end. Actual reality warping powers to that degree where it touched every person that every knew about Dean/Lisa seems more like an archangel thing. Sure, Zachariah stuck them in that mind bender in S4, and Dean in S5, but given the powers angels seem to have and that Zach was high ranking working directly with Michael, it probably was more archangel and heaven's power than just his own. And there's a little bit of cleverness here - Zach seemed to take credit but we also found out he was a sycophant whose failure would cost him his existence. It makes him a front-man for Dean to place his anger at while leaving Michael out of it for a good bit [the cleverness fails by never having Michael take advantage of this]. And helps the show avoid saying just how much power each type of angel actually has - which is something they fail with miserably later on.

It wasn't a sham. He might not have been 'in love' with Lisa but he had definitely had deep feelings for both Lisa and Ben. While we had a small idea that he never stopped looking for a way to get Sam out of hell, we did see happy moments between the three, his concern over their well-being, his misguided goodbye to her when he was a vampire thanks to Soul-less Sam. Because he wasn't told he there was a cure, he felt like he needed to go do that and resisted the hunger of a newly turned vamp around both of them. That doesn't sound like someone living a sham life they can just walk away from. It sounds more like someone trying to make peace with losing a life built up through a lot of hardship and grief and comes with a lot of emotions. The writers may have had Sam dither around in his 'will he or won't he' arc with Amelia, but those two never really came off as anywhere near as deeply connected as Dean was to Lisa and Ben. Later on, he did the typically Dean thing, blaming himself for a lot and did something terrible - wiping their memories. Again, that whole sequence says more that he has something close with them instead of the opposite. Sam, on the other hand, just sort of ran off when Dean got sucked into Purgatory, once again found a woman that knew nothing about him to settle in and when things got hard [Dean came back pissed, Kevin was still missing, her husband showed up after being MIA (which feels like it was written in to make him/them look better)], it never felt like he had that kind of commitment to Amelia. It felt pretty empty when he chose Dean, hell at that point, given how pissy he was, I kind of wanted him to go back to Amelia. It's like they gave him Dean's story arc from the front half of S6 but instead of a deep relationship on some level with someone who actually knows who he really is [like Dean had with Lisa], it feels superficial all the way through. It's no surprise that Sam was so miserable. He never wanted his partners to actually know anything about him and that trait only got worse as he got older. It was one thing in college - he's young and can't prove it. It's quiet another almost a decade later when he's well over a century old through torture to be pulling the same kind of thing. And given that he was dating Eileen again thanks to Mrs. Butters, its not surprising that he didn't go back to her after Dean died, because she knew him. I doubt blurry wife knew a damn thing about him. So he got to live, learned absolutely nothing, investigated nada even as to where Dean landed, and wasted an existence outside of having a kid just to get back to his brother.

Really depressing that this includes more than one occasion, too, seeing as he was against Sam's going to the Cage in S11 also. And then Cas stupidly said yes after Sam did the right thing and was willingly going to suffer to prevent Lucifer's escape. I just.../sigh Given all the other times that if someone had just listened to Dean a world-ending crisis would have been avoided, it's kind of amazing Sam almost didn't end the universe by accident while living to old age. Maybe because Dean wasn't there to defy or lie to etc. Doesn't paint a real good picture of their relationship - together they ended up not being good for each other but without the other, Sam's just lost while it's implied Dean's heaven isn't complete [though he doesn't feel the passage of time nearly as much]. I really hope Dabb [ among others like the nepotism duo] never writes a story about these two again. Given how terrible he's made their relationship, I could see a sequel where Sam and Dean are in heaven, Sam gets upset over Dean being 'bossy' and then running off to do something that almost collapses heaven. Since that seems to be how this show rolls.

@tessathereaper That may well be, but the finale is what it is, so trying to find a better way to view it as. I don't honestly think they actually meant the finale to feel so Sam focused [for lack of a better word] - Dean was supposed to die heroically saving some kids while Sam gets his normal life/independence. Instead he just kind of ghosts through life with his one big thing being having a child. I've mentioned before that this is a miserable end for both characters. While Dean doesn't get to have an actual life of his own, he doesn't have to continue suffering by himself on earth like Sam did. He got to go at least in a way that would be meaningful to him, find out pretty fast that heaven was redone, and also not have to wait decades to see Sam, as time isn't a thing that effects him the same way. Dean doesn't suffer the same way Sam does. In the end, it's making the best out of sour lemons, and I don't think these writers could have given them a life-long happy ending. Instead of just ending the series on the two brothers together with endless possibilities on earth in front of them, they chose to make sure both died and it was always going to be ugly simply because it wouldn't be done justice by this writing team, made even worse by the Covid restrictions, and the obvious reasoning as to why this had to happen [i.e. Dabb not letting anyone else play with his toys]. Instead, we go all the way back to a rather unhealthy co-dependency where neither can be happy or free. IMO, it's not which brother got to live the full life on earth that makes this so bad, it's the fact that they were never able to find true happiness on earth, neither are really their own person, and neither are free. Which is why I personally like to think that the series ended way before this point and the Dabb years were caused by a djinn feeding on one of them before being rescued.

A few weeks ago I read a fanfic that had this kind of story. Only after Dean's final death did Sam fully figure his shit out. Though in the fic, while struggling, he strove to have a good life that he could share with his brother to show that the sacrifice made was worth it if he saw him again [remember Sam wasn't privy to Dean being in heaven and may have actually thought they were still going to The Empty, which really changes the way I see Sam's behavior in the finale when I view it through that lens]. During the story he does hold onto the hope that he'll be able to see Dean at some point which does happen and he's able to honor his brother. Really wish I had bookmarked that thing [was on my phone at the time] as it came out during the big fanfic push of people writing their own [and at times much better] endings to the series and haven't been able to find it again, but I like to think of the finale in that way. Or just not existing and the whole series ended with Dean watching Chuck and Amara float up into the atmosphere in S11. That also works, at least for me.

I think this is the crux of the problem for me with the situation - it plays on a lot of work by cast/crew/writers of previous seasons years before Dabb torpedo the whole thing and then relies on that to manipulate the audience because at least a good portion of fan base wants these two to be friends and to have that kind of relationship again. It's really underhanded, IMO and is made even worse by the fact that they basically made this scene pointless in their drive to never address anything while lifting nougat up to god-level, literally. For me, I can't remove the Dabb years because this situation exists only because of Jack - Castiel forfeited his life and happiness for Jack to squander away and at least is able to make something useful in the end to save Dean's life. But I was never able to stop thinking about how Castiel did this for Jack during this whole thing. That combined with the leashing in of any possible responses for Dean because they didn't want to go one way or the other makes this scene not do anything for me, at least in a positive way at any rate I don't disagree with you but given that the same writer wrote a previous script that forced Dean to get down on his knees in Purgatory, crying, while asking for forgiveness from Cas, the lack of any awareness of the need to apologize for Cas here leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

I find it pretty humorous that she made the comment on that episode - aka the one where Sam Winchester became unredeemable for at least a year if not longer to too many fans [personally, it was the next one with the nurse that did me in on the character for some time]. You'd think for an episode like that where there's a delicate balance to keep, that they'd all have a pow-wow and make sure everybody was on the same page. I'd think cramming in bunch of extra junk would make a script overly busy for anyone needing it - from actors to the directors. Like why not separate out the stage directions from the lines in these cases so your people aren't trying to dig through everything and limit the chance of something being missed? And regular directors for that matter. The shows had several return ones including some of their cast come direct who frankly probably know the show better than the writers at that point [or really do know it better, depending on what showrunner was up at the time].