Idahoforspn
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Posts posted by Idahoforspn
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25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:
Ironically, this episode had the effect of showing just how figuratively alone Dean was.
A big part of why that episode didn't work for me was that it had the opposite effect. It just left me feeling bad for Dean and highlighting how he really had no one looking out for him.
Sam had Zanna, at least one teacher, John and Dean. Who did Dean have?
I felt it also highlighted just why Dean probably feels like he was never good enough. He had to be there for Sam and John. If he stayed with Sam he would have been letting John down, and if he stays with John he lets Sam down. He needed be able to be in two places at once. No wonder he feels like he failed.
Plus, Sully's advice wasn't the best. You don't encourage a 9 year old to run away. Also someone really needed to be the voice of reason in regards to the cage. It wasn't about being courage it was about common sense. Why did no one stop and point out that Lucifer hates humanity so why would he help them defeat Amara? The whole rushing to Lucifer just made Sam look gullible.
Given John and Dean's dislike of all things supernatural, if Sam started talking to an imaginary friend, I don't just see Dean or John taking that in stride. Or accepting it as a natural part of childhood since they didn't have natural childhoods.
Even if the writers didn't intend to make Dean look neglectful, there was no way to avoid it with the whole concept of the episode.
This x ten
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19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:
No problem. My focus of the "Afterschool Special" discussion came from this comment from me:
And that's how we got into "Just My Imagination" (JMI) and "Afterschool Special" of which I was saying that I only thought the first really counted as Dean seeing some childhood Sam perspective, because even though "Afterschool Special" also had young Sam stuff... it's focus wasn't Sam sympathetic for me.
So yes, we were on different tangents.
Unfortunately I know a lot of people dislike JMI and consider it a retcon (I strongly disagree and have explained why, but I know many don't agree), so not only is it the only Dean learns something significant about Sam's childhood episode that I can think of, but it's a highly divisive one to boot. So that's frustrating in my opinion and why I'd like to see more.I actually disagree with this. I could be wrong, but I can't recall Sam mentioning wanting a normal life after WIaWSNB until it somehow pops up in season 8 (which I think that season was a retcon of Sam's character anyway.) Generally, that I remember, Sam mentions the opposite. A normal life is more shown in reference to Dean than Sam in the middles seasons, in my opinion. We see it referenced in Dean's dream in "Dream a Little Dream of Me," for example.
The main thing that pops into my head concerning Sam and a normal, apple pie life was Sam's dismissal of it in "Swap Meat." Sam did say "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" in "Chris Angel..." but that wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of a normal life. I'm not even sure what it meant.
Except for season 8, can you give me an example of Sam saying he wants to quit hunting and/or have a normal life after WIaWSNB? And I'm being serious here, because I really can't recall anything and am wondering if I've been missing something important in my assessment of Sam over the years.
The ones I automatically think of are 8 and 9 so I will have to think about it. I will check but it may be a while. I start 4 days of intense recertifications tomorrow and will have little time until next week. Are you ok waiting until then?
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8 minutes ago, Katy M said:
This is what Zach said:
"Sam... has a part to play. A very important part. He may need a little nudging in the right direction, but I'll make sure he plays it."
But, at the same time, Ruby looked like she knew what Sam was hearing. I think it was left ambiguous on purpose. My belief is that Zachariah did the message changing, but a case can certainly be made for Ruby.
I just bought that Zach did it but I can buy that it could have been Ruby. Thanks.
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8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:
I think that the original discussion was about episodes where one brother learned something in a sympathetic way about the other's childhood,
This is the first part of our discussion:
20 HOURS AGO, AWESOMO4000 SAID:
I disagree with this to an extent in that I agree with @CATROX14 that Sam can't know what it was like, just as Dean can't ever know what it was like to grow up not feeling quite "right" or feeling like you don't quite fit anywhere,
Me:
Dean knew exactly what it was like to not feel like he fit in anywhere. It could be argued that his childhood was more difficult than Sam's. Sam had Dean as a pseudo Mom and Dad because, as Dean said to Mary, Dad was a "shell" of a man. Who did Dean have? And it was thrown in Dean's face a lot that his family didn't need him like he needed them. It is Canon that Dean was the buffer between Sam because of what he wanted and John and what he wanted from Sam. Who cared about what Dean wanted. We are never given anything to show either Sam or his Dad were concerned about what Dean wanted. Actually, Dean said all he wanted was to be a family. Did we ever see any effort by Sam or John to try for Dean's sake. According to the shifter, Dean had dreams too. Who cared about them. Who was there to steal Christmas presents for Dean? Who was there to give up Lucky Charms for Dean? Where was Dean's imaginery friend? I actually have more sympathy for Dean than Sam as far as their childhood. He didn't have anybody.
I am sorry I misunderstood. I thought we were still talking about Sam's childhood and Dean's.
8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:and I was saying that I would like an episode where Dean learns something about Sam's childhood. You mentioned "Just My Imagination" and I agreed that was one, and maybe there were two if one was to count "Afterschool Special," but my opinion was that the main point of that episode wasn't for Dean to learn something about Sam's childhood or even to show Sam's childhood sympathetically per se which is why I said:
My comment back on After school Special was:
I got exactly the opposite out of after school special. Sam left that school having been encouraged by a teacher to follow his own dreams and that's just what he did. He studied hard and went off to college. It wasn't until after Jessica's death that he gave up his dream (sort of) and he gave it up for revenge. Also in After School Special, Sam was shown as the one in the end who fit in and had friends. Dean was shown as the outcast.
Again, I guess we were kind of talking about different things.
8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:so I didn't think that episode really counted towards Dean learning something about Sam's childhood. (But I was acknowledging that to some it might.)
And that's in contrast, in my opinion, to the multiple episodes where Sam learns and/or realizes something significant about Dean's childhood: Dead in the Water, Something Wicked, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Dark Side of the Moon*, and Bad Boys. that I can remember - I may be forgetting one. I do remember a few more details that Sam learns about Dean's childhood - I think - like that Mary giving Dean tomato rice soup and singing "Hey Jude" as a lullaby, but I don't think those were main parts of whatever episodes those were, and were more about Mary, so... Basically my point was that unless I'm forgetting something - which is very possible - it took 11 seasons for us to get an episode where Dean had a sympathetic realization about Sam's childhood.
* I suppose this episode could also count for Sam, though I'm not sure Dean really learned anything in a "very special lesson" sort of way as much as he got angry about what he learned and/or dismissed it.I do, too. Actually I generally skip a lot of season 4 on rewatch, and mainly because of this episode... once I got hit with the anvil this episode was trying to tell me, I got very annoyed with the season as a whole, because I had a pretty good idea that very little of the season was going to be looked at from Sam's point of view - at least sympathetically. I also disagreed with the premise that Sam going to college = abandoning the family that "Afterschool Special" seemed to be trying to tell me.
And because the message of that episode bugs the crap out of me, I took a moment to vent some bitterness on it... sorry about that, but it was cathartic, so...
I agree that it was more about being with Dean, but my point was that being close with Dean and hunting is pretty much a two for one package, and based on how Sam says "I'm glad we do" (get along and are together), in my opinion, that's Sam admitting that having such a close bond with Dean and working with him (i.e. hunting) was worth giving up the college dream of being a lawyer... In other words "I'm glad we do" to me is Sam saying that Sam would rather be with Dean, hunting, than have gone to college to become a lawyer and not being with Dean. For me this was reaffirming that Sam, knowing what he did now, didn't regret giving up college to stay with Dean.
For me it was a very important admission from Sam.
That would work if the show didn't have Sam multiple times after that say he wanted to quit hunting and he wanted a normal life. The first time Sam actually embraced hunting on a permanent basis was when he was talking about MoC Dean with Charlie. That's when Sam said for the first time that he loved hunting. Anyway, that's the first time that he hasn't contradicted himself at a later point that I remember.
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2 hours ago, Airmid said:
This same Bobby who had zero clue as to where Sam was when Dean came back?
The same Bobby who was rather nasty at times to Dean the entire season 4 arc culminating in the whole 'suck it up princess'?
The Bobby who thought it was okay to go send a souped up Sam to zap Lilith when Dean was trying to get his brother human?
The same Bobby who was without options and okayed a plan to bleed a few humans for Sam to get juiced back up?
The same Bobby who thought it was an option to let Sam jump into the pit?
That Bobby would have reservations with hunting a trickster and trying to force it to help free a worthy human from hell or murder it if it wouldn't/couldn't?
Sam couldn't break the deal. However, Sam had just watched something with the power of life and death, something very powerful that may be able to get the contract so that Dean's deal is null. Something powerful enough to scoop Dean out of hell and mitigate the consequences.
I don't think Bobby would let someone rot in hell if there was an option. I do think he'd approach it with a plan and try to bring Sam back in to contain him a bit. Not exhausting all other options wouldn't be on his agenda. Not sacrificing Sam would be. Which brings us to:
When you're trying to talk someone off the edge sometimes yelling at them isn't the way. Bobby probably had spent God knows how many weeks yelling into Sam's voicemail and not getting anywhere. So if this is the real Bobby (not saying it is, just giving an opinion on the matter) he would switch tacts. Sam not swinging in the wind on a suicidal mission in grief and rage would be first priority here. When yelling and demanding don't work you go with plan B which is trying a nicer approach to appeal to something in the person you're trying to get to back down.
I think Sam, in this state, would lie to get Bobby's help in his true goal. He'd reject Bobby until Bobby had something for him to work with because Sam needed that and in his mind, just his brother back. Sam doesn't care about collateral damage here at this point but Bobby does. So Bobby would help him hoping to met with him to get him to back off a little and find a better way because he still cares about both of them. It doesn't particularly matter if Sam told Bobby anything about what happened, the very fact that Sam was laser focused on one being as the end all be all answer would be enough information for him.
Was it actually Bobby, an illusion or the trickster all that time? We have no idea and they've never said. Just like they've never said if it was Ruby or the angels that changed that phone message that got Sam back on the Lilith track. In this case, in the end, it's not as important because it showed simply that Sam did not learn and still lost in the end.
I thought Zachariah said something that would lead us to believe he did the phone message. Something like he took care of that. I don't remember. I just remember that it made me think Zach was the message changer.
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2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:
That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the
anvilmoral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway.And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this...
In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone.
And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all?
For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful.
[Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.]
My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case.
My opinion on that.
It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly.
Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to:
I think the "I'm glad we do" had more to do with being with Dean and not having lost Dean to the Djin than being happy hunting.
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2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:
That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the
anvilmoral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway.And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this...
In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone.
And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all?
For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful.
[Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.]
My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case.
My opinion on that.
It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly.
Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to:
After School Special is one of the three or four episodes I usually skip entirely on a rewatch. I understand what you are saying about adult Sam in this episode.I thought the writing for adult Sam and young Dean were depressing and just plain bad so we agree there and on a lot of the points you made as far as adult Sam.
As far as Dean blaming Sam for having to give up his Dreams, I don't think Dean blamed Sam. I think he just felt that maybe life hadn't given him a chance in a lot of ways. I don't think Dean is capable of blaming Sam for his (Dean's) life.
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1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:
That was in the flashbacks, but in the current time, Sam actually learned 1) that beating up the bully helped result in the bully committing suicide, and that really the bully had issues, because of his mother dying. So basically Sam ended up being a bully, too, because he left, and the bully was stuck with the awful nickname Sam gave him because Sam was trying to be one of the "cool" kids, partially leading to the bully (Dirk) committing suicide and leaving Dirk's father without any family left (i.e. a dead wife and his only child committing suicide) 2) Sam's friend that he helped also committed suicide, and so Sam's helping him and trying to have a friend did absolutely no good to that friend 3) when the teacher asked Sam if Sam was happy for having followed his dreams, it was obvious from the look on Sam's face that he was not, so... the
anvilmoral of the episode was that Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" at school back then resulted in: two dead kids and devastated families left behind plus the other dead and maimed kids caused by the ghost created by the bully committing suicide, and Sam not being happy anyway... with the very special lesson Sam learned from that episode being that Sam's memories of "fitting in" and trying for his dreams were rose colored and irresponsible, because look what his trying to "fit in" resulted in for Dirk and Sam's friend - and Sam ended up not being happy anyway.And if there was any question for me that that was the real message of that depressing episode, the writers had Sam say this...
In other words, Sam shouldn't have "followed his dreams" to begin with, because apparently that was just immature wishing on his part, not the responsible thing to do, and he should've stayed with the family business after all, because Sam following his dreams and trying to "fit in" ended up badly for everyone.
And if that wasn't the message, then that's a whole lot of details thrown in the story that aren't needed except to show that the truth actually wasn't what Sam remembered - i.e. that "fitting in" was "good," and following his dreams was the right thing to do. In other words, if the message was "look how cool Sam was able to be as "normal" while Dean was a loser," then why have Dirk actually have a tragic back story? And then have him commit suicide and be his father's only child... because of the taunts from the other kids of the name that Sam called him while trying to fit in? Why have Sam's friend commit suicide anyway? And then Sam realize he wasn't happy after all?
For me, this was all part of the "Sam abandoned his family" vibe the show had going at the time, and this was just more evidence pointing in that direction... that even the thing Sam remembered as "good" really weren't and were, in fact, awful.
[Interestingly, this was a Dabb / Loflin script. I'm not exactly sure what that means.]
My point here was that when Dean "embraced the life" Sam was maybe 12 at the time... so Sam going to college didn't impinge on Dean's decisions or "loss of his dreams" at all. And if he was blaming Sam for before that - like when Sam was 9, 10, or 11, well that's iffy my opinion. Dean should have been blaming John, not Sam, who was doing his best even back then to start taking care of himself and maybe had just started considering going to college himself. So if ShifterDean was implying that Dean had to give up his dreams, because of 10 year old Sam, I still contend Sam was being unfairly blamed in that situation. I could see Dean being jealous of Sam being able to get out and follow his dreams when Dean felt trapped. That's very human of Dean, but again, it's not Sam's fault, because Sam wasn't holding Dean back, and Dean didn't really have to "take care of Dad," so much as Dean wanted to believe that was the case.
My opinion on that.
It could have been, but Dean seemed to bring it up out of nowhere and he seemed genuinely nostalgic about it while Sam was going "really, dude? That thing?" But I could be remembering it wrongly.
Sam also seemed to be genuinely saying that it was worth it for him (Sam) as well. This was the part I was referring to:
However the original discussion we were having, I thought, was Dean's childhood as opposed to Sam's childhood so the flashbacks were what was relevant to the original topic . What Sam found out going back as an adult wasn't relevant to what his thoughts were as a child.
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12 minutes ago, Airmid said:
I think part of it also is the insane chemistry those two manage to create. The same thing happened with the pilot episode, generating the very first Wincest in like the first hour after it aired. So we already have a fandom that's rich in M/M with a touch of taboo and here comes this intimidating creature that's scary and good looking. Throw in the subtle actor cues and the writing that shows Cas beginning to understand and value Dean instead of just threatening him about tossing Dean back in hell and bang, there's a lot more support for this kind of pairing.
I think some of it falls on the writers, some of it on the actors, some of it on the fans themselves given the climate of things like fanfiction at the time and just ingrained tropes viewers/writers/actors themselves may not consciously acknowledge or be aware of. I
Jensen has great chemistry with just about everybody. I do think some of the no chemistry with Anna was 1) the actress wasn't too convincing and 2) I understand that a lot of fans don't want romantic interest for either of the boys. Actually, come to think of it, I'm in that camp but probably not for the same reason as many.
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2 minutes ago, Airmid said:
Essentially. Seeing as I am confusing today (I blame it on lack of coffee which will be rectified soon):
If they had wanted the family to team up with BMOL I would have liked to have seen it at the very start. Sure, still have Dean and Mary get there but find they're minutes behind this brand new group. They all talk, and offer is made and things start to roll with cooperation. Lucifer is actually a vengeful archangel not just a teenage with angst and parental issues and is a real threat. Then after dealing with Lucifer's aftermath the BMOL, which has subtly been portrayed as maybe having dark intentions starts to feel off. At that point, the Winchesters pull out and rally the American hunters and they overthrow and take down the BMOL operations in the US while strengthening their own relations. (add in other details I had above).
That's what I would have liked to have seen. I was upset because Mary joining was kind of 'what', Sam joining was a 'come here and let me whack you upside the head' moment after everything up to that point, and Dean following Sam made me wonder if that boy was taking drugs.
I thought the 'If' in my original statement made it clear way back. Next time I'll try to make it crystal as to what I'm saying and I can see how it would be even more confusing coming in and just seeing my answering post. :)
I follow now :-)
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5 minutes ago, Airmid said:
It was. I have to say that cliffhanger was probably one the show's best in terms of just how everything was left. Sam's lost Dean but Lilith can't kill him with her demon blast so flees. Sam's left with the disfigured body of Dean and the shooting of the whole hell hound sequence was well done, complete with JA showing the pain levels Dean felt.
It's because of this that I have problems with Season 4's first. Not because Dean was saved but because of Sam's actions in that. Sam off doing bad things for revenge/brother saving was fine and acceptable. Sam sneaking off with Ruby was not, at least not right then when he got one thing he wanted back.
I really didn't like what they did with Sam. I know writers have this big thing about character's being flawed and then overcoming all to save the day but they went way way overboard in my opinion. It didn't make any sense either.
5 minutes ago, Airmid said:I was nosing around for an interview that I know exists where JA actually states he asked if he was being written off the show and did see something interesting for that whole sequence. Apparently, JA stated it was the most painful one he had shot up to that point given the harness and what they had to do. Seeing what they were filming, at least it fits and probably adds even more to it.
If you find it, post the link please! I would find that interesting.
5 minutes ago, Airmid said:At least they didn't write Cas out like they had originally planned to. We almost lost him before he even started, even if they have problems bringing the story for him now.
Good thing he isn't a recent addition to the show. They kill off the good characters and keep the bad forever.
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So season 12 DVDs will be released (US) Sept. 5
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3 minutes ago, Airmid said:
Mystery Spot was slated as the last and swapped with Jus in Bello when the strike started. I do know that, it came out during the following months about how the plan was to work and them moving story arcs to season four. At that point there was absolutely no insurance that they would have any more episodes. I remember that year, a lot of shows were hit and some suffered and some like SPN were actually better for it. Tough year all around though but it did get SPN fans one of their most shocking moments - Dean wasn't saved.
OK. Thanks for the info. I wasn't part of SPN so didn't know all that background. I bet it was a tough summer for fans!
3 minutes ago, Airmid said:I did go and look at the page for the season but it's not really telling me anything more. Twelve episodes before the strike, four after, they sorted order again and decided on Dean going to hell. I am honestly unsure of how they planned Sam's arc in that one or what it would have taken to save Dean or if the whole demon blood crap would have been involved. Season three had some strange myth parts to it - like Dean meeting the demons who seemed to have belief systems and some type of feelings in Sin City and Dean being wigged out by Sam's ruthlessness. And Sam was ruthless but it centered more on his efforts to save Dean later on and how far it would go. That whole demon mythology that was introduced in by Cassey in Sin City is never touched on again.
Not to mention the whole demonic war that we barely saw and was barely covered and never to be mentioned again.
That actually makes a lot of sense to me.
Makes sense to me too.
1 minute ago, catrox14 said:Castiel wouldn't be an angel either. I just can't imagine this show without Castiel. Like I enjoyed the first 3 seasons but bringing Misha in really IMO changed everything for the better. But that's just my opinion.
I can't imagine those early seasons without Castiel either. I have to admit though that since probably season 5, I have felt like the writing for him has continued to go downhill. Pretty fast the last two seasons IMO. Where is my warrior angel?
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Just now, Idahoforspn said:2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.
That's how it always seemed to me. Maybe I'll have to rewatch.
I think they had many months to make a plan for the looming writer's strike. Those negotiations don't happen that quickly.
I'm glad that particular writers strike happened then. Dean suspended over the abyss was an iconic SPN moment. IMO, the most dramatic of the entire series. It also changed the storyline dramatically.
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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
I thought Bobby was actually always the Trickster in those subsequent 6 months of roboSam. That was part of the Trickster's lesson/game for Sam. Sam never called Bobby, Bobby always called Sam. And always mentioned the Trickster. He never mentioned that Dean had died or about getting Dean out of Hell. When Sam gets to the meetup with 'Bobby', it was the Trickster pretending to be Bobby to see how far Sam would go with killing a man to get Dean out of Hell.
That's how it always seemed to me. Maybe I'll have to rewatch.
I think they had many months to make a plan for the looming writer's strike. Those negotiations don't happen that quickly.
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3 minutes ago, Airmid said:
Originally I was talking about what I felt it should have been rather than the timing. RulerofallISurvey quoted me and asked what I meant, which I was trying to clarifying it as - my own thought process as how any of the Winchester's should have joined. This is the original quote:
And Ruler asking me what I meant, thinking I meant it as what happened instead of what did:
My original was what I thought would have made more sense for Sam and his joining, not later on. My fault for not clarifying my though process on that one, but I thought I did later on with:
So you were saying that you would have preferred the BMoL to rescue Sam INSTEAD of Mary and Dean doing it. Did I get it right this time?
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7 minutes ago, Airmid said:
Mystery Spot was supposed to be the season finale of the old season three plan before the writer's strike as the season's climax.
Mystery Spot was episode 11. The finale was 16. Did they have well over a months notice for the writers strike? I had been told they didn't have time to develop the wanted arc of Sam going dark to save Dean so they ended up writing an episode sending Dean to hell. I'm glad it turned out how it did. Mystery Spot would have been a horrible Season finale IMO.
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18 minutes ago, Airmid said:
Sorry, I'm talking about way back at the start of the season. Like by the time Dean and Mary get there BMOL has already just rescued Sam and claimed Lady Idontrightlycare is a rogue agent.
I'm confused. When was this? Mary actually began the Sam (and Dean) rescue and then Dean finished it by knocking out LadyRogueAgent. The BMOL guy came in after the rescuing was done. Anyway I think that's when you mean because you say Sam overwhelmed with his mom there, Dean alive. I must be confused about what your saying.
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26 minutes ago, Airmid said:
Which leaves a sticky wicket in Season Four when Sam goes and makes Ruby find another body. She finds a comatose person who's soul had already left (i.e. been reaped) and took over the body that was on life support. Now she could have been lying, demon and all, but if a soul is wandering around outside of it's body seeing reapers than I think it does count as a death since he can be fully be reaped and almost was. He also had the option of staying on earth of course but given that's were ghosts come from and what happens to them, I don't see that as an argument for him not being dead enough to count. It simply seems that reapers come when there is zero hope for the body to recover regardless of medical intervention on this show.
I can see other arguments on that one like you and it's just my extra two cents.
While yes I prefer the head canon that Dean was there for 100 years simply because of that whole 'well John didn't break for that long but you did in less than half' crap, I think it's not what the writers had in mind to be honest on that episode. Gabriel had the powers of an archangel which includes shaping/creating whole separate realities. It would make more sense for him to yoink them out of earth's time for a few hours and stick them somewhere else where time was sped up to get Sam to 'learn a lesson'. Also, playing around with time like that would probably make him a huge target for heaven since we don't actually know Michael or Raphael's reactions to him at all and would get his family sniffing around which he definitely wouldn't want.
Unless, his reversing time reversed Michal and Raphael too and just...no. Not an option.
Was Mystery Spot before they knew they were getting a writers strike? Dean was never supposed to go to hell, or be tortured, or the first seal to break or....
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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
If it was that it never happened Sam wouldn't remember it happening. Dean doesn't remember because he was dead and resurrectedso for him it's a new day. Basically IMO the trickster just put everyone back to the beginning but I don't think it erases what happened.
This. I'm glad somebody else thinks this too. :-)
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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:
I never thought Dean's speech to Mary was ever about Dean really. IMO , it was a beautifully written, perfectly acted plot device that used Dean's emotional POV veiled in his issues but was really there for Dean bear witness to Mary about Sam's life and to remind the audience of all the suffering that little Baby Sammy endured in his life as it was juxtaposed with Sam ascending to leader of an army of hunters. It was about as close to a baby Jon Snow/King of the North Jon Snow moment (GoT viewers will understand this) a could be.
I totally agree with this.
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14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:
I understood. Thats why I said it was a quibble on my part. Dean was either being tortured or was in some other place aware otb the torture going on around him
Somebody told me there is a fanfiction about Dean's body somehow remembering (probably not the right word) the torture and what it had been through those 6 months even though Dean's mind didn't and that's why he broke in three months the second time. I thought it was a very interesting premise. I tried to find it but never did.
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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:
He said that Dean was doing the rumba in Hell.
When the Trickster said Dean was doing the "hellfire" rumba, I equated it to torture but that's just me.
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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:
Ahh...this makes so many things work much better for me in a really awful way :(
With you there!
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Spoilers With Speculation
in Supernatural
The Dean leads Sam follows has always confused me. I have seen Sam regularly disagree with Dean and Dean has regularly agreed to do things Sam's way over the course of the series. Sam actually isn't that great of a follower in my opinion.