TattleTeeny
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Posts posted by TattleTeeny
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Oh, I read Steve Thomas's book too--it feels like forever ago (why am I so old now?!). I guess I just think of the underwear as one more thing for my mental, ever-increasing "weird yet inconclusive" list about this case.
Haha, just now I was flipping channels and one of the Ramsey shows was on and I heard the BF whisper, "no"!
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It does call into question Patsy's credibility. She can't remember what JBR's normal routine is (how often she bathes and changes her clothes), she says that a size 12 set of underwear can fit her 6 year old child who takes a size 4-6, and that JBR was able to open the plastic packaging on her own. JBR walked around with these huge panties all day at The White's party? Patsy puts JBR to bed and doesn't notice these huge panties? Wouldn't they be falling off her 45 lb child? Patsy even insists that JBR wore a size 8-10 but only sizes 4-6 are found in the Ramsey home.
The link below outlines the oversized underwear issue along with a comparison of both sets of underwear. Either Patsy is blind or delusional .
But lots of things strain Patsy's credibility, and she could very well be delusional (that décor for one thing, and the holiday sweaters for another), and she didn't say they fit her. And of course a 6-year-old could open a package of underwear (and I refuse to type the "p" word, and I hated reading it 6,000 times on that website!) All it says to me is that she stuck some too-big underwear in a drawer once upon a time and maybe JonBenét or someone else opened the package. It's weird, OK, but many things are weird about the family, IMO. My family's weird as hell but no one's murdered anyone (yet). None of the above says "killer."
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OK, maybe I am dumb but I just read the two links and found nothing particularly damning, nothing that says once and for all that this was not the underwear JonBenét started out wearing, and nothing that says the underwear was hidden somewhere that no one other than Patsy would know about. But even if Patsy was the only one who knew about the secret stash of underwear, I am unclear on what this is supposed to indicate as far as guilt on Patsy's part or that it was changed by the killer. Did I miss this? I suppose I could have; I've been proofreading all day at work (and that second link is to the ugliest and difficult to read website I may have ever seen).
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Yes, she was found wearing an oversized pair of Bloomies underwear meant as a gift for Patsy's niece with the words 'Wednesday' on them. This underwear was concealed in a drawer so no one would know where it was except Patsy.
Not arguing this, but do you have a source? I'd love to read t! TY in advance!
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No, they usually keep their pajamas on and don't get dressed at all until they need to.
Well, I have no great love for Patsy Ramsey, but to be fair, we don't know what "they usually" do if we don't personally know the "they" in question.
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The killer or killers also made sure to change JBR's clothing and put some oversized underwear on her. Underwear that Patsy had bought for a relative that was either wrapped as a present or stuffed in a drawer. Why would a supposed kidnapper take the time to redress his victim and put on underwear ?
I have never heard this about the underwear. And she was found in long-john bottoms and the same shirt she'd worn to the Christmas party the night before--white with a glittery star. If it was supposed to be a kidnapping, she would likely be dressed, no? And, in keeping with the blanket, if this were done by someone who cared for her (in whatever capacity), that person almost certainly would not have allowed her to be found undressed.
QuoteIt's my opinion that they didn't help with the public perception of them having killed JBR. Of anything, they made it worse.
Definitely agree. However, I can also easily see how someone with the means would push back against a police department like this one.
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Could someone wiser than I tell me if there is not some kind of punishment for the JMK's of the world for making uncoerced false confessions and causing all sorts of ruckus and mayhem in the process? I've been rolling this around in my head and I can only come up with partial answers to my own question (and then that thing happened where I'd overthought way too much about it and it all became absolute nonsense even though the answer is probably obvious and I'll soon feel really dumb), mainly that we don't 100% know if he's lying and, because the evidence didn't support his confession, there's was nothing to "get" him on and thus unconstitutional?
Oh my goodness, what if we find out someday that JMK was friends with Michael Helgoth, haha! It would have been kind of awesome to see the junkyard guy say, "...he had this twitchy little friend with cartoony eyebrows, a thing for polo shirts, and a voice like Sheldon Cooper."-
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Ryan, you dont have to have a million characters and subplots and weird pointless creepy imagery to hold our attention. Just tell a good story with good characters. Thats it!
That is my exact issue with so many horror movies!
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And at an age that would definitely imprint on him.
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I'm glad other people are dismissing that "OMG big clue!" too, even if we are not of the same opinion as to the perp. I can say though that I have more clothes than I can wear over the course of two months and still I sometimes grab whatever pair of jeans already has a belt in it!
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Plus, once that becomes a working theory that the public can read, maybe criminals would make an effort to not do it.
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One thing that bugged me about this episode (and it has nothing to do with the case) was that, when the narrator was talking about Michael Helgoth, he said something like, "...and the most disturbing thing of all" in reference to M.H. hypothetically musing about cracking a human skull. Hell no, I beg to differ; I'd argue the most disturbing thing from that list of Helgoth's behavior was actually breaking the necks of small animals, thank you! And if that junkyard guy saw M.H. doing that, why the hell did he not stop him and/or quit being friends with the guy?!
QuoteI'm supposed to believe he and some unnamed partner planned this crime but neglected to bring with them any instruments they needed for it -- including a rambling ransom note, the murder weapon, and the suitcase they were gonna stuff her body into to cart her out of the house.
See, I find this a workable theory. Maybe they wanted to take her in the suitcase (which to me does not look big enough even for a little girl) for the ransom (if junkyard dude is to be believed that Helgoth mentioned a future windfall of cash), used a stun gun (which may have belonged to M.H., per the photo) to keep her quiet, realized they suitcase thing wouldn't work and/or she was waking up, nixed the kidnapping plan, and did the rest. As for the pineapple, I got nothin'--and also nothin' as to why they would not have come with a ransom not already from their own notebook.
ETA: I forgot to add that maybe Michael Helgoth and/or his alleged partner was on that house tour?-
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Yeah! I personally find it odd for myself but who the hell knows what other people do (and I do put on the same jeans two days in a row, now that I think about it)? Weren't they about to get on a plane anyway? This family was generally unknown to the country at large before this happened, so we have no idea if this is something she never did before. And even if they had been well known prior, we still probably wouldn't know that.
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A footprint outside near the broken window was noted and determined to be from a Trek(?) type shoe, which none of the Ramseys owned.
The Hi-Tec (sp?) boot!
I don't know how well I can articulate this but one thing I wonder is if JonBenét ate the pineapple herself (at whatever time of day or night)? I know that they found only fingerprints of Burke and Patsy on the bowl, but in light of the handling of the crime scene, I wonder. Unlikely, but she was 6, not 2, and capable of eating pineapple unaided. And also, while so much stuff like the notepad and the paintbrush and the pineapple, etc., do cause one to consider the family due to those things' all being items the family would know existed and where to quickly and easily grab them from, they still don't necessarily mean that someone else could not have. Again, I apologize if I am being inarticulate; lack of sleep (snoring BF!) and I just found out I have to buy 4 new tires--booo!
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PineappleGate is very interesting....also that she suffered tramatic head injury 3 hours before the garot was put on her. Wierd
Burke NEVER asked what happened to her until they got to their friend's house. Weird
Burke never left his room, even when mom AND police came in separately with flashlights. Weird
Burke's smile. Uber creepy Weird.
Mom didnt hang up the phone correctly during the 911 call, she though it ended and the recording was analyzed to have 3 distinct voices on the recording, tho Patsy swears there were only 2...they believe its Burke saying "what did u find".
Ransom note had a first draft written and found at the house, who has time for that? Weird
Burke said he was in bed all night, then admits to using a flashlight downstairs in the middle of the night to play with a Christmas toy..Coincidence?
At first they thought JonB had markings on her body from a stun gun, but now they say that the markings could have come from the track of a train set...which Burke got for Christmas that day. Coincidence?
Me? I think Burke did it, maybe by accident, maybe not. The Rents had a choice...lose one kid or 2. Patsy wrote the note...she was the only one tested that they could not rule out.
I just don't find that much of this stuff that weird.
QuotePineappleGate is very interesting....also that she suffered tramatic head injury 3 hours before the garot was put on her. Wierd
Ugh, I used to find the pineapple interesting way back when (I love stomach contents, haha!). Now I think it's interesting but that people may be making a mountain out of a molehill with it. And it's not that strange to me that a bowl would have the fingerprints of the people whose bowl it was on it. If it's strange that JonBenét ate pineapple in the middle of the night, OK, I can see that. But that pineapple really doesn't say as much as people think it does, IMO. Also, oh my goodness, so many of my FB friends think this pineapple info is new! Are these shows presenting it as such?
QuoteBurke NEVER asked what happened to her until they got to their friend's house. Weird
Burke never left his room, even when mom AND police came in separately with flashlights. Weird
When Burke was taken to the family friends' house, wasn't it still a presumed kidnapping? If he were told that, maybe he understood that no one yet knew what exactly happened. As for the police coming in with flashlights, he said that he heard the commotion and knew something was up and it was not necessarily good. If he's not a gregarious kid to begin with (and I don't know that he was or wasn't), maybe he figured it was best to sit tight?
QuoteBurke's smile. Uber creepy Weird.
I think we've covered here that people express nervous/anxious habits for far less than stressful encounters talking about your sister's murder on TV (with Dr. Phil of all people, no less). He did that smile anytime he talked, whether it was about grisly things or not. I think he can't help it, and I don't think it's an indication of anything. If Burke's weird, he has plenty of reason to be, IMO.
QuoteMom didnt hang up the phone correctly during the 911 call, she though it ended and the recording was analyzed to have 3 distinct voices on the recording, tho Patsy swears there were only 2...they believe its Burke saying "what did u find".
This has been interesting to me since whenever it was that I first heard it. However, no one seems to be able to confirm that there's a third voice. And while I don't know if or why the 911 lady would make it up, I also don't know that her word is the end all, be all either.
QuoteRansom note had a first draft written and found at the house, who has time for that? Weird
You could posit that an intruder, who knew the Ramseys were at a party, could have time while lying in wait. I am not saying I think that's what happened, but that there was time for it. And where is the first draft (or the paintbrush pieces or the duct tape?)
QuoteBurke said he was in bed all night, then admits to using a flashlight downstairs in the middle of the night to play with a Christmas toy..Coincidence?
But what's the "coincidence"? I don't recall Burke saying he was in bed all night but I do recall his parents saying that, and John later saying that he'd actually had to corral Burke, who was playing with a toy, to bed. Last night, he said he didn't know if he used a flashlight. (Honestly, why any of these people would be using a flashlight in their own home is kind of weird to me, even if JonBenét was asleep when they brought her inside from the car).
QuoteAt first they thought JonB had markings on her body from a stun gun, but now they say that the markings could have come from the track of a train set...which Burke got for Christmas that day. Coincidence?
Again, what's the coincidence? And who is the "they"--police or other investigators (I thought it was Lou Smit who suggested it)? I believe that it was the police who suggested the marks were from a toy (right?), and the police were dead set on it being someone in the family. Those marks also look like stun-gun contact points, complete with one dot larger due to inconsistent contact with the skin (and wasn't it the police who pooh-poohed that theory?). And I am having a tough time putting together how the train track would be used in this injury (granted, I have not gotten a good look at the train track)--was this thing some kind of super-substantial heavy-duty metal? Was Burke, like, holding it like a sword and doing an "engarde!" kind of thing? And if he's bent on conking her with something really damaging, why bother with a train track piece--and twice?
QuoteMe? I think Burke did it, maybe by accident, maybe not. The Rents had a choice...lose one kid or 2. Patsy wrote the note...she was the only one tested that they could not rule out.
The note and handwriting stuff looks pretty damning (probably one of the more damning things in all this, IMO). But handwriting analysis still isn't an exact science (and a few exact sciences have lately been presenting questionable accuracy in crime investigations), and it's not like the police tested everyone who was in Boulder that night--I think it was maybe 9 or 10 people?
And, oh my goodness, I cannot stress enough that not being ruled out (along with the term "not inconsistent with") is far from irrefutable evidence of guilt...and we should all be glad for that, whether or not we ever--god forbid--find ourselves in some kind of hot legal pickle like this.
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I was thinking today that, if I made a spreadsheet with two columns--"Evidence Pointing to Ramseys" and "Evidence Pointing to Intruder," they might just be even in the end. There's practically no need even for a middle column with this thing!
Also, regarding Ol' Smilin' Burke: this is, of course, just my opinion, but I feel like the smile never seems to leave his face; to me that seems less like deception than one that comes and goes. Like, it's not a "tell" because it's always there, and not present only during the difficult stuff.-
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I don't care if some people think he has some kind of syndrome or something, that smile on Burke is creepy as hell. He's not a kid, he's almost 30 years old, you'd think he would make an effort to not smile and laugh when speaking of his murdered sister. He should be making a major effort to not have a grin on his face.
That's the thing though--I feel like someone holding onto some sinister info would do exactly that (meaning the bold part). I wonder if his parents' efforts to shield him from media and public scrutiny created a social anxiety for which he developed a coping mechanism that manifests in weird shy smiling. Maybe he has no idea he is doing it.
QuoteI think the murderer had to know the lay out of the very large house. Finding JonBenet's room, the pad of paper, the paint brush, and the basement secluded room would confuse most people.
I definitely think the killer was at least somewhat familiar with it too. But that Christmas house tour could point away from a family member.
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I wish--and I'm a good cleaner too (though I have to constantly remind the fella that there is a HUGE difference between "I like to clean" and "I like things to be clean." He thinks he's all slick using the former in a spat).
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They know that someone who was already in the house did it; they just do not have enough proof to go to trial.
If by "they" you mean cops, and if by "someone who was already in the house" you mean the immediate family, they don't actually "know" much. Cops locked in on that theory early on and there is debate as to whether they properly pursued other leads. But, if you mean that a possible intruder was already inside the home when the Ramseys returned from a party, that does seem to be a pretty popular consensus (though if someone had entered that window after the family got home, it's likely that no one would have heard and clanking or banging or whatever due to that house's size and crazy layout).
QuoteThere were no footprints in the snow to the partially open basement window that was too small for any adult to get through, anyway. No sign of forced entry anywhere.
There's also debate over whether the small amount of snow would show footprints. And an adult could--and has--proven that an adult can fit through the window since the murder.
QuoteAnd their house filled with friends before the police even got there. The crime scene was no longer useful for evidence.
Yeah, plus one cop suggested that John Ramsey, along with a friend, search his own home without a police officer accompanying him.
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22 hours ago, candall said:
Oh, you guys. I'm as anti-kid/pro-pet as they come and I just see a dad who spots his "first baby" hurting and addresses it. It's not like he activated one-step ordering for a doghouse, a stake and a chain.
Besides, the dog looks happy to be lion-doggie and get in there close to love on that baby.
Dogs, they rise to meet the occasion.
I get annoyed at this commercial too, but these are good points you're making! However...
These people could conceivably just gradually introduce the baby to the dog by not forcing it; allow the baby to do its thing and the dog to do his, and sooner or later that baby will be used to the dog's presence and see that he is not scary. And I'll add that at least the people aren't rehoming their pet or leaving him at a shelter because the baby arrived.
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@LORDONIA Don't the bleach tablets that go in the tank eliminate the rings in the bowl for you? I use them continuously and also every morning pour just a bit of Pine Sol in the bowl and swish it around. Never any rings and I have well water, not town water.
NOTHING DOES! I swear, we must look like dirtbags at my place and we are not, I promise! Dark waterline rings accented by a pinkish hue! The tablet things do nothing other than make it harder to see (until the blue fades, that is). The only thing that works is cleaning it.
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Seriously! If I hear "soon there will be nobody left on it but you" one more time from that Martin Mull-looking Alex Hunter, i don't know what I'll do...
probably sit there and continue watching just as I have been doing for a week now.
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Burke was creepy as fuck with the smiling. I know it's not fair to judge because someone's not "acting right," but that was strange.
QuoteI highly doubt that I would be smiling if I were to recount the day that my little sister went missing and was eventually found murdered, even if I was just nine years old. It seemed very strange to me.
I agree that the smiling was strange. But "strange" is not an indication of anything nefarious--and Burke probably is strange. I have always found his parents a bit strange (and as I mentioned in another thread, have always found Patsy to be off-putting in general), as have many people as evidenced by the many instances of the "they just weren't acting like people whose child was found dead" opinions* swirling all over the place ever since.
Further, I have no idea if Burke was "like this" (with the awkwardness and smiling) prior to the murder, but I find it plausible that growing up like he did after it could have had an effect on his social skills and demeanor. Lots of people smile when nervous about far less somber issues than this. If he were a calculating person hiding a huge secret and/or guilt, I'd think that he'd probably try to get that smiling business under control before going on TV (that is, if he even agreed to be on TV in the first place). Also, just the fact that he agreed to appear on this show tells me nothing will come of the interview. Call me jaded but I was never under the impression that Dr. Phil would be the one to facilitate some big break in the case, haha!
I don't think Burke is responsible for this murder. And if he were, I don't think that he'd be talking to Dr. Phil about it. I also have a hard time believing that in all these intervening years--about half of which he was still a kid--he's never slipped up (that we know of), committed another crime, turned to substance abuse, etc...
* I was talking to my BF (who doesn't care about this case at all, and who's probably being driven crazy by the fact that I care too much about it) about all the examples of this--Patsy putting on the same clothing the next morning, no one knowing who put the pineapple out, bedwetting rage, etc... Anyway, while I, like many people, do find some of that stuff strange (and really zeroed in on this stuff way back when), it's not like I ever knew anything about these people before this happened, you know?--maybe Patsy does rewear her clothes. Until this murder, we as the general public knew nothing about these people, so today I can't use those instances to gauge their (alleged) roles in this crime.
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JonBenét: An American Murder Mystery (Investigation Discovery)
in Specials, TV Movies & Other One-Offs
· Edited by TattleTeeny
Oh, I know--me too. Any "they," including these theys--haha, fun with pronouns!
Honestly, they all are pretty similar even when there's a biased slant. I liked the Lou Smit one but I don't recall what network showed it.