Monkeybball

I don't think anyone here is trying to say that an obviously drunk girl is fair game. I think what the point is is that how are you supposed to know? Alcohol affects different people different ways. Yes, she does not remember - the next day. How are you supposed to know she's in a black out? I've gone out with friends before and been "wasted" and people were like "really? you were like 100% normal." So if a drunk girl looks you dead in the eye and says "I want to have sex with you right now" and then you have sex, thinking everything is good, aren't you going to be slightly shocked the next day when people say you raped her? Now, OBVIOUSLY this wasn't the case in this episode - as Ellis admitted at the end "I knew you were passed out, but I couldn't stop myself." There's the problem. Because even up to that point she could have been pulling his member out of his pants but the minute she passed out - consent is eradicated. But before then? It's not black and white, it's just interesting to talk about. I don't know the answer, but it certainly comes up often enough. There was an episode in Season 4 called "Soulless" where a 15 y/o girl (in a club with a fake ID) gets gang raped by a bunch of 18 year old boys. Now, statutory rape is a general intent crime, meaning you didn't have to intend to have sex with a 15 year old, you just needed to intend to have sex with that girl (even mistaking her age), you're still guilty. But at one point in the episode, when asked about how intoxicated the girl was, one of the perps says "I was too drunk to appreciate her condition." Now in that episode it was complete malarky, cause the girl was already passed out on the bathroom floor when they raped her, but in this episode's case? In real life? How do we expect people to know? Let's say that Ellis was just as drunk as the girl - let's say someone roofied him, like Kim Rollins did to that guy in last season's episode - then what? I certainly don't know the answer, but again, I think it's an interesting discussion to have, and I think that it's okay for SVU to tackle these kinds of cases....I just wish they wouldn't make every single one a gray case.

I'm all for it. And for the Defense attorney to object and have the red headed judge go "hmm...I'll allow it" and look at Olivia with intense interest because she too wants to know.

I liked this episode for the most part - but the heel-turn at the end did not satisfy me. It also didn't seem to make sense for where the episode was going. I also agree with those who posted above that by taking that way out (although in the grand scheme of things, it was right of Ellis to accept responsibility and apologize, wish Brock Turner would have done the same), I think they missed an opportunity to delve further into the alcohol/consent issue. I for one, was bowled over by the argument of "you left this voicemail, you don't remember it, you were conscious....you don't remember having sex, but you could have consented and been conscious" thing. Not that I haven't thought that before, but the analogy was really perfect. One thing I really hate in many of these episodes is the victim's testimony of "I never would have done _______." That is not evidence, lady. Especially for a drunk person. I also don't like the part in the episode where the detectives/cousin/whoever immediately tells the victim with a memory problem "you were raped!!!!" before they even have a chance to get their bearings. It's okay for some of the circumstances, but not for these "gray rapes." While I did like this episode, I found myself saying "What I would GIVE to have a good ole fashioned WHODUNNIT or search for the kidnapped victim or elusive perp" a la Countdown (S2) or Manhunt (S3). Miss those days. The kid who played Ellis was GORGEOUS.

The episode where Fin goes "WHOA-HO! That's the Full Munoz right there!" Aka my favorite line EVER. Cracks me up every time.

ah! I see! I stand corrected. I totally thought most Olympians were like the gymnasts age, like 14-16 or whatever they are. Very interesting. I totally agree with you about the flip side of the testifying thing, which I meant to post last week I think. It's so annoying when the victim does testify and then they freak out and always blame OLIVIA (of course) for "YOU said I had to testify, YOU said that we would put him away!" First of all - it's especially annoying because you know the writers totally just do this to make Olivia a victim and to make us all feel bad for her and defensive on her behalf. Second, I don't really, because Olivia, you need to tell them that just because they testify and just because this goes to trial DOES NOT MEAN THE PERSON IS GOING TO GET CONVICTED. I feel like we do not hear that nearly enough. We, as the audience, feel bad for Olivia because we know that it's not her fault if someone gets acquitted, but we should feel more badly about the fact that these victims are given unrealistic expectations. And yeah, the babies are everything to a woman thing is getting really effing old. I'm sick of both Rollins and Olivia having babies and being moms and now all of a sudden they are the authorities on everything Mom. And Rollins being judgey about every victim who comes in with a child who's a lil irresponsible? Shame on her. She's got the balls of a burglar to talk about other people behaving questionably. EFF Kim Rollins. Defense Attorney Varma is super cute. Gorgeous actually I would say.

Okay I have like 45,000 issues with this episode as well. Disclaimer - have not read the whole thread yet cause I'm at work and trying to type this up on the sly so forgive me if I repeat or ask questions that have already been answered. 1) I'm willing to bet that NO Olympians (save for equestrians and maybe weighlifters) have babies. Aren't most olympians quite young? Wasn't buying it. 2) Yes you absolutely can rape a hooker. 3) I actually said out-loud: I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR DEFENSE STRATEGY, SIR! during the courtroom scene. First, it was that he outed her as a hooker so she cried rape (btw, that's the exact OPPOSITE of the timeline in which the events occurred) then it was "he didn't find you attractive, right?" Oh and by the way, I'm so over the defense attorneys testifying. YOU ASK QUESTIONS, NOT MAKE STATEMENTS, EVEN AT THE END OF YOUR QUESTIONING. SOMEONE GET THIS IN LINE!!!! 4) 4 years to get to trial in a rape case is actually about the norm. Not 2 or 3 days. 5) Plea was bullshit considering how much they fight every other defendant on pleas. Was it because this was a rich white guy? Huh SVU? HUH?!?!?!!! (totally opposite of their normal agenda) 6) The whole time I kept feeling like "in today's current climate, a rape victim olympian would NEVER lose her endorsements! they'd use her as a role model!" but I kept forgetting she was a hooker, and that was the problem. They kinda shoulda focused on that part more. Her moonlighting. They barely even connected it to the bipolar disorder, they only went there once she took her shirt off in court. (Btw, never would have happened). I have to say, I am getting SO annoyed with this SVU trope (that has been going on forever, btw) of the detectives BROWBEATING these victims into testifying. "YOU HAVE TO TESTIFY!!!!" Um, no, I don't actually. And I know cops don't act that way. Sorry Olivia, get off your soapbox ya dumb bitch. I'm over you. It reminds me of the way she treated Meagan Goode in the Ray Rice episode. You can't force these people to be victims just cause you want them too. Oh and just fyi, this is all the prosecutor's job, anyway. Barba looked good with a lil bit of gray in that hair. Carisi is hot. Fin, gorgeous.

I can't even parse through all the issues I had with this episode right now so I'll just start with one since someone mentioned Ice-T's line about Melle Mel - I REALLY don't like what they did/are doing with Ice-T with this kinda shit. I'm sorry, but Fin has been in SVU for what? 16 years? Yeah, it's a funny line, and of course his point is well taken, but the way it was framed was so ick for a detective that's been investigating rapes for the better part of his career. We've seen sensitive Fin before, and it's fun when he presents his "street smarts" to the squad, but this just seemed so out of character for a detective in this unit. Idk why it bothered me so much, but it felt like there were some overtones that I can't quite articulate but I really didn't like.

I can say nothing else right now but: UGH.

Btw, did anyone else think that Carisi sticking up for Rollins against Barba so vociferously was foreshadowing of a Rollins/Carisi relationship?

I felt horrible for that kid. (By the way, that actor is just ridiculously amazing too). But I was surprised they didn't even point out the fact that the old piano teacher was standing over him and saying "you know what to do to help him, Evan." I think as the man who raped/molested Evan his whole life, he has a certain degree of power and control over him, and him directing the kid to do it should have been considered when they wanted to punish Evan. It's somewhat akin to Stockholm Syndrome.

I get where you're coming from....but I think the difference between Michael Rapaport's character and Sean's is that Rapaport fully admitted to what he did and showed a lot of remorse. Sean played the victim even after he committed the heinous crime. And I'm not saying you don't feel sorry for him....it absolutely sucks what he went through. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be locked in a cage for 16 years knowing you're completely innocent. But it's hard to have sympathy for him after he was out for like, a day, and BRUTALLY raped and MURDERED the girl who cared about him. I mean the way he murdered her was above and beyond. And again - even when Sean made his statement, it still reeked of "poor me, poor me" and not "CRAP....I let myself become a monster." Tbh, aside from Steven Avery, most of the wrongfully convicted men I've heard of come out of prison and lead AMAZING lives after, working to help other wrongfully convicted men and doing talks and things like that. I don't like this whole idea of "well I went to prison innocent and came out a criminal." I gotta say, I didn't feel much sympathy for Sean myself.

I gotta disagree with everyone saying that Fin "wrongfully convicted" someone. We don't know that any false confession was coerced, and they clearly stated that the victim ID'ed Sean (even though she got it wrong). Fin did his job with what he had, and the justice system failed. In more ways than one.

Rollins: "Trick or treat!" Clown: "WHO WANTS A TRREEEEAAAT?" Fin: NYPD. What the hell are you doing Bozo?

I thought this was a GREAT episode. Was so much better than last week's. It broke my heart a lil when they said at the end "Then who's fault is it?" I mean, if you're going to go so far as to say it's the mom's fault, then you can extend that and say it's the guy's fault who actually raped her, because then she wouldn't have been in the position to accuse anyone in the first place. Very sad story. Although I was slightly perturbed with the way they wrote his allocution as "this is what you do if people laugh at you." I would have preferred a little better explanation than that, because I don't think that was it. I also wish we got to know a little bit more about what Sean was like prior to going in, and what made him a viable suspect in the first place. Also, OF COURSE VP Joe Biden shouted out Liv specifically. *eyeroll* ETA: Det. Tutuola's Prada sunglasses at the end....heeeeeeeeey. ETA-A: Did anyone else call it immediately when he said "This is the first time I'll be allowed to legally drink!" and Liv gave her worried face? Shut up Liv, like your ass hasn't been in the wrong end of a bottle all of the last few seasons! Also, does anyone else find it extremely weird how often people address how attractive Rollins (and Olivia) are? I mean back in the old days it felt like Mariska had that written into her contract. I mean Kelli Giddish is so pretty in that uber-blonde girl way that maybe it would be weird not to address it, but having the defense attorney do it in court? Or suspects do it during interrogation? Yeesh.

I'm trying to figure out a way to say this as delicately as possible....so bear with me. I am a survivor of sexual assault as well so this is not me being blind to its effects and seriousness but.... I AM SO SICK OF THIS SHOW ACTING LIKE RAAAAAAPE IS THE WORST CRIME IN THE UNIVERSE AND THAT IT COMPLETELY TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!! I can't even tell you how many times over the years someone has done something completely shady or CRIMINAL and the squad has been like "but guys, let's remember, she was RAPED." Just look at the way Olivia's tune and tone changes the minute Ana said she was raped. All of the sudden Liv becomes her ADVOCATE. Excuse me, you are a police officer. You are not a defense attorney, as Dodds said. You are a POLICE OFFICER. Yes Detectives often do advocate to some degree for the victims they work with but not on this level. It's just ridiculous. Olivia goes from being completely evil-Liv-faced to the girl to omgmypetrapevictim. It's getting a little bit out of control. Just because someone was raped does not absolve them from responsibility from everything else that they do in their lives. HOWEVER....it did present an interesting element to this particular girl's case, because the effect of repeated and sustained over the years sexual violence. I totally get how it mitigates her crime in this particular scenario, BUT - I'm sick of Liv being all goo-goo eyed over every rape victim that comes her way. Okay I didn't say that delicately at all. Nor did I even really communicate what I wanted to. I don't know. It bothers me. ETA: That Dodds line about "you doing your job cost my son his LIFE!", who saw that one coming a mile away? Would have loved for them to have held off from that for at least a few episodes, let the tension build. I don't think that would be the first thing he says to her out the gate. God I'm sick of Olivia's emotional dilemmas. I wanna see more Tucker. He's hot.

That he is. I miss good old Langan in the court room. It would be fun to see him go up against Barba.

True Romance FOREVER! I kinda wonder if they're gonna bring this one back around again like they did with Rudnick/Yates. Only because I thought that whole creepy Loomis guy practically yelling "NOT GUILTY!" without a hint of a stutter was kind of a random thing to throw in at the end.

Glasgowman's Wrath was when I truly fell in love with him. The empathy he has is amazing. And it's real. There were times Stabler or Amaro tried to do it but it was usually undercut with some sort of weird "rage" thing. Carisi generally wants to see people as people. I think it was really evident in his dealings with Rudnick as well, and Doug the alcoholic in "Forty-One Witnesses." Even last week with Father Eugene (my GOD that dialogue they gave him was horrible....but he acted the CRAP out of it). He's the kind of detective that I believe in real life would get really far. He just has a way of making people comfortable.

If I was Mariska I would DEMAND as many scenes as possible with Tucker make-out seshs and make them put that into my contract. RJB is just way too smmmmoooookin hot.

It's funny, I agree with everything you're saying. I thought they did a great job fleshing out the whole "sex offenders vs. normal life" angle. It's funny too because I also have had that same conversation Carisi had with Amanda. Someone kills someone (I'm not talking serial killer/wife killer/gang member), does their time, gets out, you figure hey, the possibility of him murdering again? Maybe not so high. Not everyone who kills has it engrained in them. Sex offenders? You ALWAYS think they're recidivists. Is that fair? A guy like Rapaport's character (btw...he does not look so good, although I freaking love him as an actor), I think the circumstances of his rape (which yes, rape is rape and it's horrible what he did), would maybe lead one to think that hey, he might not repeat offend. It just kinda stinks that all sex offenders are generally considered the same. Like a 19 year old who has sex with his 14 year old girlfriend (okay, a lil weird, yes) is he the same as a guy who molests multiple children? I know a lot of states are trying different ways to work their registries so that people can realize "not all sex offenders are created equal" but I think in the eyes of the majority of the public, they are. I also loved the scene in group when Carisi was talking about looking at the pictures, the child porn, and he never touched a kid he just looked! I love how Rapaport's character was like "hey, you know why those pictures exist? because someone IS raping a kid!" It was the exact convo they had with Hank Abraham.

Definitely knew it was the lawyer the moment he sat down in the chair in the squad room. Looked at him and said "that's the guy." I don't know how or why, but I really wish they could stop making this stuff a lil less obvious. Or maybe I've just watched too much SVU. Okay, now - while I certainly didn't want Carisi to get killed, much less hurt, I was REALLY confused about what "the biggest twist in SVU history" or whatever they called it was supposed to be. I kept thinking, okay, they're gonna have Carisi and Rollins shack up at the end? Fin is going to do something wild and leave the squad? (NEVER! I'll stop watching, I will!)! But nothing was that outlandish or twist-like. Sure, it being the guy's lawyer is surprising, considering he would not be one of the "usual suspects," but the way they promoed it? Aw HELL no! SO anticlimactic. Carisi looks hot no matter what. I really hope they're not setting us up for a Fin exit. Mariska as the only "OG" (even though Fin came season 2 I still consider him an OG) is just not okay. And really? They couldn't have given us a lil more on Mini Dodds? Just "oh yeah hey, he's gone!" Great job guys. Sooooo, what exactly was the point of him again? At least have him go out like Chester Lake, in a blaze of glory, or SOMETHING! Side note from last week - did anyone notice that when Olivia talked to Tucker outside of his Unit One (or whatever it was called I already forgot) interview, she lowered her voice to match his? It really bothered me. I love Rollins' new hair!

Drunk Liv...we knew they were gonna make that happen! Could Tucker BE any hotter?!

Will come back with a more substantive post later but: Holy WHAT?!

Mini Dodds!!!!!! He was the most likable part of this episode.

I honestly almost cried after this episode was over. I was legitimately depressed and in a funk for a lil bit. It's just such a horrible story. But I totally agree with you. I'm 27 and even I don't fully think my actions through sometimes. I mean I don't get into physical altercations with people, but all of life is one big learning experience, regardless of your age. I don't think prison was necessary for this kid, as you said, how is it really preventative at all? For Darius, definitely not. For others in that situation, MAYBE, but I kinda doubt it. I don't think the type of kids who would do that kinda stuff in the first place would be affected by "the example." Darius clearly was affected by what happened, even before Avery's death. Outside of prison, he would be remorseful for the rest of his life. Inside prison? He's much more likely to become the kinda person who will end up a "hardened criminal." Having Darius forced to do community service, maybe involved with transgender or homes for LGBT youth probably would have been a much better use of his time. Then he could have made something positive of the situation. There was NOTHING positive about how this ended up.