oliverwendell

Did I miss a scene? It's quite possible I blacked out after the Shireen burning. But the only Wall scene I remember is when Jon has just arrived, and the Wildlings spend that entire scene marching through the gate. Jon hasn't really had an opportunity to gather the NW together for this sort of speech. Maybe that will happen next week?

I'm kind of afraid to google it based on everyone's reaction, but I'm curious. What is "sapatao"?

HAHA! Yes, this must happen. I'm betting Mick is a Dean Girl.

I'm just going to put in a vote here for 12 Monkeys, a random little sci fi show that finished its first season on SyFy not long ago. Twisty, smart and time-travelly, but definitely way angsty. It, too, has a pair of friends who are more like brothers whose relationship gets way complicated by the events of the show. (And I'm so glad I didn't offend anyone here by inadvertently referencing a Neo-Nazi slogan in my username!!)

I'm just testing to see if my username change worked. I used to be fourteenwords, but today a mod told me that "fourteen words" is apparently a Neo-Nazi slogan!!! I had absolutely NO IDEA about that, and I'm so sorry if I offended anyone. (I was actually referring to the free speech clause of the First Amendment, which is fourteen words long.) Anyway, from now on I am oliverwendell.

I think they needed to show us that conversation. The one where Death says, "I will spare the entire world from the destruction you would wreak with the Mark of Cain, but I won't do it unless you kill Sam first." And Dean understands this point is non-negotiable, for whatever reason, and decides to accept the condition. Because in that moment, whether it's Dean alone or the Mark of Cain influencing him, he decided he would sacrifice both Sam and himself (because, let's face it, spending eternity off in some spectral plane sounds a lot like spending eternity in a cage, like Lucifer -- a fate actually worse than death) to save the world. This did happen, I think. But it happened off-camera. And I think that was a mistake. Because without that scene, too many people are trying too hard to figure out why Dean thought he had to kill Sam, and why Sam was willing to be killed. It's messy.

No. You have that right. And that is a further annoying thing about this episode. I've decided to pretend that everything after Season 5 is a completely different show that also happens to star Jensen Ackles as Dean Winchester and Jared Padalecki as Sam Winchester.

Also?? What about the First Blade?? Dean killed Cain with that thing. Why couldn't he get somebody to kill him with it? Cas even knows where the Blade is, for pete's sake!! I get he's all 'roided up and such, but surely a garrison of angels could hold him down while somebody stabbed him??? He didn't really need to be parked out in space somewhere for all eternity, and he certainly didn't need to kill Sam! More importantly: if I could think of this gargantuan hole in the story in less than 24 hours, why didn't somebody in the writer's room think of it at some point during the months since they broke it??? They are professionals! Argh! Argh, argh, blargh. I just get more annoyed the more I think about this episode.

I need an interview with Carver or Singer, stat. I need to hear them try to explain this episode. Then I need them to tell me what they think they're going to do with that giant smoke-blob that supposedly contains all the primordial evil God could fit in his U-Haul and then some. You know, the universe-devouring force of Chaos their protagonists just unleashed because they couldn't stand to live without each other? Yeah, that one. I mean, normally I applaud ambition and go-big-or-go-home storytelling, but if the Supernatural writers room could pull this off in a way that would make me retroactively enthusiastic about this finale I would be shocked. SHOCKED.

I agree with most of what's been said about this episode, both the bad and the good. But my personal takeaway is this: In Swan Song, the love of two brothers saved the world. In Brother's Keeper, the love of two brothers destroyed it. That's the difference between Original Recipe Supernatural and what Carver's serving us, and I gotta say, I'm not a fan of that change.

The finale will change the landscape of the show "in a big way," according to Carver and TVLine. http://tvline.com/2015/05/19/supernatural-season-10-finale-spoilers-dean-mark-of-cain-death/ Thoughts? Theories?

Here's something new, albeit short. It's a promo for the finale that makes it clear exactly why Dean summons Death... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awOhGn-9bqM

I've been predicting for a while that Dean will kill Sam in the finale, but I thought it would be a mercy killing, to spare Sam from a fate worse than Death just as Cain offered himself up to Lucifer and killed his brother. I'm still thinking that's what will happen -- only it might be Death doing the bargaining instead of Lucifer. Also, I just want to say that I've come to really enjoy Rowena and want her to stick around. She's funny, and cute, and evil without remorse. Whee!

Wow. They are really making it seem like Dean has to kill Sam to get the Mark off, aren't they? Are the promo monkeys just being their usual, unsubtle selves? Or are they running a misdirect? Also, has anyone with the ability to go frame by frame figured out what Dean is seeing in the mirror before he smashes it?

I agree, because we've seen a somewhat similar situation before: Amy and her son. Dean did not even consider killing Amy's son, who actually was a monster; the monster she was killing to feed. But to Dean, killing a child was unthinkable. This kid in the bunker was a bit older, but still was just a kid. Moreover, Amy's kid threatened to get his revenge someday, right to Dean's face, and Dean still didn't kill him. NerdStyne begged for his life in a very convincing way; one that the Dean of old would have responded to. No, I'm with SueB on this: Dean had to cross a moral event horizon (love this term! never heard it before!) in order for us to appreciate how much the Mark has twisted him, and to make us really want to see him fixed. Killing NerdStyne was that moral event horizon, and I for one am glad it wasn't killing Cas.

The difference between the heinous crimes Dean is committing now and Sam killing the nurse is that, while Sam was under the influence of a corrupting force (the demon blood), he also believed he was acting for a noble purpose: killing Lillith, stopping the Apocalypse, saving the world. Dean is also under the influence of a corrupting force, but he had no discernibly "noble" or "good" reason to kill that kid. He's just a cold, cruel, killing machine. That's why they'd better have something pretty damned redemptive planned for him or, even better, a way to establish beyond any doubt that MoC Dean is as different from regular Dean (and therefore as unaccountable for his actions) as Soulless Sam was from regular Sam. Seriously, I don't think anything Sam has ever done is as bad as killing that kid. Nor do I think Sam has ever said anything crueler to Dean than what Dean said to Sam tonight. This storyline has been way too slow to develop, in my opinion, but now that they've finally gotten down to it, the writers are definitely not doing this Mark of Cain thing halfway. Now let's see if Dean gets anything close to the redemption story Sam got in Swan Song!

My hope is that Dean's eventual big-ass fit of remorse comes from his realizing that none of this would have happened if he hadn't recklessly taken on the Mark of Cain, because that is 100% the truth, in my opinion. But I don't think that's going to be the case. AwesomeO4000, your scenario where Sam kills Cas makes terrible sense. I've been expecting Cas to die in the finale for a while, and if Sam does something that Jensen thinks is going to piss the fandom off, that might well be it.

I wonder: we know Death is in the finale and that Dean latinates in the finale also. Maybe Dean summons Death to force him (or bargain with him) to bring Charlie back?

I agree it's not Demon Dean, because Demon Dean would not give two shits about Charlie being dead or whose fault it was. Jensen has said that that's how he sees Demon Dean: as an entity that does not have a care in the world, and no emotional connection to anything. But I don't think it's consistent with Dean's character, either. Yes, Dean has lashed out before when he's upset. But almost always it's been because of something Sam did that Dean perceived as hurtful to Dean. Sam trusting Ruby over him, or not looking for him in Purgatory, or what Sam said to him in the Purge, for example. This is not such a case. Dean is angry that Sam pulled Charlie into the Book of the Damned business, and that she died, in his mind, because of that. But to take that anger to the extent that he wishes Sam and Charlie could switch places on the pyre? I don't know. That just seems way outside the lines of Dean's character to me. So the writers are either mucking with his character (hopefully not) or it's the Mark poisoning his love for Sam in its mission to drive Dean to kill Sam (hopefully this).

Yes, I'm hearing that, too, and I don't even venture far outside this forum. I'm not sure what the writers intend by this, but the cynical part of me wonders if they are trying to even the score between Dean and Season 8 Sam. In other words, if Sam's failure to look for Dean in Purgatory was the worst thing Sam has ever done to Dean, and turned some viewers irrevocably against the character, maybe the writers are trying to fix that by having Dean do something equally rude and unforgivable to Sam. Like look him in the face and tell him he wishes he were dead. That would be poor writing, in my mind, but I'm not entirely sure Carver is above that sort of thing. On the other hand, the more generous part of me wants to give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are trying to show us (rather than just tell us) the Mark's influence is growing by having Dean do something that goes so directly against the way he is wired that it can't be explained any other way than by the Mark. Telling Sam he wishes he were dead instead of Charlie would qualify, in my mind. I guess I'll just have to wait and see how it plays out over these next two episodes.

Yikes. The only thing I can say to that is there is no way Dean would wish Sam dead in place of Charlie if he didn't have the Mark. Just nope. No way. But man, there's gonna have to be some apologizing and some hugging when this is all over. Also, anyone who thought the writers wouldn't make Dean into too much of an asshole with the Mark because they were too unwilling to dirty him up? I don't think they can say that any more. Because he looks pretty dirty from where I'm sitting.

I'm torn. I agree that that shot in the promo looks a lot like Charlie. But that's not the outfit she was wearing in the hotel. Hmmm....

Woot!!! I gave this almost exactly zero chance of happening. I am so excited. I might even have danced a little.

Is LoL "Lair of Letters"? I kind of think it's doomed, too. But that's because I'm expecting an announcement sometime over the next few months that Season 11 will be the last. I don't know why I think that. There's been no hint of it from the writers, cast, or crew. But it feels like the story is heading to a place where it will be just Sam and Dean on the road again next year, with no Cas, Crowley, Charlie, etc., and no Bunker either, and that feels very Final Season to me. On the other hand, I've been dead wrong about every prediction I've made this year. I also want to give a shout out to SueB: I so appreciate your detailed analyses of the promos and your thoughtful predictions. So. Much. Fun!!

This is really annoying me, too. I mean, of course he's losing the battle. The Mark always wins, Cain made that perfectly clear. But it doesn't seem to have reached the Red Flag! Emergency! Emergency! stage that would justify Sam taking crazy measures. I mean, Dean is functioning well. He's going on hunts and, aside from a slight tendency to slam witness' heads into tables, he's doing pretty well. This is a major storytelling failure to me, because it makes Sam's furtive, desperate behavior hard to understand. I'm also fundamentally confused about why, exactly, using the Book of the Damned is such a terrible idea. Dean got the cooties when he touched it, and he said it wanted him to do terrible things. Okay. One of the Stynes said if they used it, there would be "Biblical" consequences. Right. But none of that is compelling to me, because nowhere in the story have they told me, with specificity, what using the Book of the Damned would do. Without that, I don't get why Sam needs to keep it from Dean, or why Dean is apparently going to go off the rails when he finds out Sam has it. So that's another storytelling fail, from my seat. Finally, I don't get that Dean has given up. He's dubious that a remedy is out there, and he doesn't want a remedy that would exact too high a price. But he very clearly said he intended to get his beach vacation in the end. Just not through the Book of the Damned (although, see above re: the lack of specificity there). He also said to Charile and Sam that he doesn't have a death wish; he wants to be saved. He's fighting the Mark as hard as he can, and I'm sure he'd love a solution to his problem that wouldn't involve unleashing Hell on earth or whatever. So why does Sam think Dean is all passively waiting to become a demon, to the point where it's up to him to save him against his wishes?