sark1624

Yes, for the rest of the society back then Mary marrying Henry Talbot wouldnt have a big deal, Henry Talbot was not tittled or rich, but he was remotely connected to the landed gentry, he was a "gentleman", something similar to Bertie Pelham when he was the estate agent, personalities aside, both were connected to the landed gentry and their names would be in debretts peerage book. But in the Downton universe, everybody knew that Sybil was that kind of woman, even Rosamound said that Sybil would be happy living in a simply cottage but not Lady Mary Crawley (in the plot in wich she starts havind doubts about Matthew when Cora is pregnant again). So, in perspective and considering Lady Mary personality and character she married very down more than Sybil.

Well, i also come from a country who gain independence and became inmediatily a republic; it is not my intention to start a fight, but i think that every country builds myth about its past, also the fact that in america there is no a monarchy it doesnt mean that there is no a aristocracy, even that i am not american there is people in the US who felt proud that their family is old money, they go to harvard, they are billionaires, they have servants, they also mix with the smart set, they do only fashionable charities and so on; perhaps the brits are more honest about and they do it up front. My country is small, but there is also some sort of aristocracy, they are businessmen who their ancestors worked in the upper echelons of the spanish rule where, and they go only to certain unviersities, they even keep their old estates only for the prestige rather than the money, they have certain names, and they dont mix with the rest. In the particular case of Downton, the writter Fellowes is unashamely conservative, he can only see the aristocracy in rose tintes glases. The truth in those times is that the aristocracy in britain was in the margins, they no longer had economic, policial or social power; young working class people no longer wanted to be servant, they wanted normal jobs with free time and improve themselves, women no longer looked up women of the aristocracy for fashion, they looked actresses and so on because they were icons of meritocracy, industrialists or other new money no longer yearned to be aristocrats, if they wanted a castle they simply bought one from a broke aristocrat, policitians, even conservatives ones no longer mixed with the aristocrats. For Carson, the butler, it is very important to be the butler because he is old, in his days be a servant in a big house was the top job for a working class person because he could have clothes, a bed, a roof, 3 square meals; but working conditions for working class people were better in the 1920s so being a servant was no longer the top job that somebody from poor origins would dream. Certain attitudes of the Crawley family was totally innacurate, for example accepting a gay footman, or being too friendly with the servants, or living in luxury (the aristocrats were downsizing everything), selling their art works, jewels and so on; also accepting that one of their daughters had a child out of wedlock. But still the show is interesting about how people behave themselves about 100 years ago.

Wilson and Heath childhood were very similar, in fact, the conservatives elected Heath as a response to Wilson succes, he was the first lower middle class man to lead the conservatives. Both were raised in very humble enviroments, both were brilliant in university; but the main difference was in their character, Wilson had more chemistry with people (tha thelped him to lead a party so complicated as labour was in that time and being witty during elections).

It was not a fabrication, plots against Wilson were very real, even after all the years many think that his resignation was because he was pressured (i dont believe that, in fact privately he told some people that he was going to resing with dignity). I believe that in the 70s the army made some big military excersices in the airport without telling Wilson of the home scretary about it, they basically learned about it the press. Because is still a sensitive thing, in fact even Wiilson in the series first warns privately to the queen about it, if he wanted to go nuclear about it he could have go the house of commons and then the whole royal family would have been in trouble. In fact, a retired spy, admited how some in the secret services continued to plot against Wilson in the 70s, Peter Wright in his book spycatcher. The sad thing is that those people were so worried about searching comunists under the bed that they missed the ones over it. According to some people most of those men were retired colonial officers, with little intelligence and competence, basically during the 90s a Home Secretary undertook a major cleaning of the mi5.

I think that in all roundup, Napier was the more "suitable" man for any of the Crawley girls, he was an heir, he had a job (a proper job from someone from the landed gentry) and he was honourable. But seein Mary´s character for all the series it was clear that she never liked for a husband, in other therms he had the same personality of Bertie Pelham, so seeing both characters it wouldnt being weird that they both would have ended together. But again, it would have been seein bad that basically Edith must have Mary´s crumbs. The thing is that JF wrote Matthew Crawley as the only one with some respect for himself, he didnt allowed to be toyed by Mary, but sadly when they were married she was very rude to him and slowly he became more bland. There is an episode when Mary starts to flirt with Strallan only to anoy Edith, then Matthew just walk away in order to show that he was not someone who could be play it. Gillingham, Blake, and Henry Talbot basically allow themselves to be played by her, it found extremely humilliating in Talbot part when he basically came begging in the final episode when Mary send a telegram for him after all the fuss in previous nights, and when he was scared of showing her the car business. Remember, Matthew Crawley didnt gave a dam about what Mary and the rest of the family though about him working as a solicitor, it was something that he liked to do and they should have to respect that. That was the main difference betwen Mary and the rest of the suitors, even Napier showed some backbone when he realized that Mary found him boring.

In therms of couples Fellowes ruined a lot, it would have been totally inexplicable how Mary always had 3 or 4 young, healthy, suitors when the war killed a whole generation of upper class man. By all standars Mary is a beautiful woman and rich, but there were in that same period equally beautiful, richer and more younger girls to pick up. Similarly to Edith, by becoming a marquiss Bertie would have been the catch of the season, even dukes would have throwing their daughters to him, and his job is to produce an heir so he would neeed a young wife. I think that Tom should have moved to live with Isobel and then become some sort of son to her, give Sibbye a more liberal education, and then knowing a young intelligent middle class woman, maybe entering to politics as councillor in the local goverment, being an mp it seems to much for a ex irish rebel, the labour party would have never supported and ex irish rebel to get seat in parliament, neither someone who is related to the landed gentry and estate manager. Many women like Lady Mary would have ended single, not only because of the shortage of men, but because they also saw marriage as a burden, also Mary already made her job, she gave an heir to Downton. She could have easily work in the estate and enjoy boyfriend, have sex and basically and independent life, even, the aristocratic society didnt look that with bad eyes, again she did her job, she gave birth to the heir, so having lovers quietly was not a scandal. Many aristocrats did have lovers, the rule was to be quiet about, being puritan was more a middle class attitude rather than aristocratic. But in order to no ended alone, i think that Mary should have ended like someone like Blake, but all the men after Matthew were weak, all keep playing Mary´s game, and for that reason all look bland.

Exactly, every person who served in the front was given a campaign medal who are different from gallantry medals, for example Robert and Bates wear campaign medals from the boer wars but not from the ww1. Thomas is seeing wearing 3 campgains medals, normally those were given to those who were in the army in 1914 (remember that Thomas made arrangements with Dr Clarkson to be in the medical services), most of the people however joined when the warr was declared (for that reason they have 2) probably Matthew and Bertie had a similar history, both of them joined after the war was declared and they only arrive in 1916 to france (it took almost 2 years to train that giant volunteer army, who in the end was massacred in the somme, matthew´s first battle). What i was trying to say, that not being a veteran was something very frown upon by all people, if you were a upper class man, all the people expected that you should serve in some form, even Robert was depressed because he was left behind, William also wanted to join, people basically bullied those who were not in the army, they gave white feathers; men who were wounded or discharged were given some distinctives to wear in order to not be critized or get a job. There was a minority of men that for political reasons or religions didnt serve in the army, but they were given a lot of options, they could serve in medical services, and other not combat roles. The only way to avoid military service was that your work was too important for the country, like scientist or something like that. But i find hard to know what was Henry Talbot ocupattion, i would think that if he likes fast cars and machines he could have been in the flyng corps. But in any part of the show they show that he was a engineer, scientist, foreign diplomat and so on. And even Robert said, that he expected that her daughters married someone who served "king and country". I know that Matthew Goode has a lot of fans, but his character its look like some sort of play boy.

I also like the character of Gregson, perhaps the history it would have been better written, perhaps a divorced man (not that melodramatic crazy wife thing), the fact is that Edith working in the magazine was the only one in that family capable of escaping from the aristocratic life, even the good-inteligent-modest Matthew Crawley was sucked in when Robert and Mary basically bullied him to obey their orders, same with Tom. In the other hand, we must remember that was becoming more worthless, the future was the middle class, the professional class, even working class people no longer look the aristocracy as a role, movie stars were the big thing as a symbol of meritocracy, even the tribute to the uknown soldier was a symbol that the country was mourning the "ordinary man", not some aristocratyc heroe like Wellington or Nelson. Off course by basic logic a man as Bertie could have choosen any woman, in the show Mary say that if he would have been more handsome all the woman in England would have wanted him (the actor is not), but in those years a young healthy rich aristocratic man would have been rare, in line with history the most powerful aristocratic families (the devonshires and others big dukedoms) would have been ecstatic if they marry one of their daughters to him. For that reason, Mary sabotaging the union betwen Edith and Bertie and the family saying nothing was totally inacurate, or even if Mary announces her pregnancy to Henry Talbot it would have been meaningless in the pecking order to aristocratic life and world view of people like Robert and Violet. By the mere fact of inherting the tittle and the fortune, he would have been the catch of the season, fathers would have throwing to him their young daughters. But in the positive note, Bertie Pelham seems like the Matthew Crawley for Edith, and Edith doesnt look Cora who basically was pushed away by everyone in the family and look far more equal in their relation, in comparison lets say Mary and Matthew or in the xtreme Robert and Cora.

Somewhere i read that in a delted scene of the movie Bertie says to Edith that in the future she would need to spend more time in London in order to write. So, it seems that she is going to have some relation with the magazine. Off course, in economic matters she doesnt need to keep a job of any kind, but as character she need to have something of just being someone wife. But in realistic therms that is the problem with Edith, have a a rol as a marchioness and keep a magazine. Off course, if we see the series you would think that Edith more or less became something like Cora, but if you check the history, some of those aristocratic wifes became champions of liberal causes, they became trustees of college for girls and so on. And the character of Bertie it seems far more liberal than Robert, in the movie is the king of england who give the orders to Bertie to go to africa, basically the only one who can give him orders, so, say no to that is not easy, it is like a liutenant following orders of his captain.

Good points, i bet thath knowing Edith character the progressives would have been more interesting for her, those related to education and so on. But as a marchioness she should participe anyway. But it is good put in context everything, the aristocracy as such was loosing importance every day, common people were not so fixated with them compared to the times before the war; people started to emulate actors, singers, sportsman and so on because they represented meritocracy, the stories of humble origins and being suddendly being rich and famous. Yes, Gregson i think was from upper middle class, he mentioned that he went to college, very few people would go to college back then. So, i bet that he had comfortable origins, i think that the same level than Matthew and Isobel, part of the upper middle classes. About his wife, they gave so little clues, if he had the money they could have put her in a "good" (by those years standars) places. But if she weake up and so on, she also could challenge the will and maybe get a part of the money, but Edith now is rich by marrying Bertie, so it is not the money problem, but, that would be a huge scandal.

I dont remember well but it seems that there is rule that if of the dukes is out of the country, the other must stay in order to carry the duties. Also, it would be very difficult for any tittled man say no to the the king, because if it in that way, what is the point of having aristocracy? In other words, Robert and Bertie are representatives of the crown in their counties and that extende to their wifes. For that reason, Robert and perhaps Bertie must participe in the local reserve army, go to local parades, charities, committes related and their wifes similar activities.

Yes, i think that the Prince of Wales would have considered Bertie too boring, but that was basically the whole idea of the king, basically "babysit" the Prince of Wales. If they wanted of him having fun, they should have send Henry Talbot, i dont know why, but i think that him is some sort of play boy. Yes, he is starting a business and have a baby with Mary but i never got the feeling that he was the "right one", i mean Matthew, Blake, Napier, looked more mature men. I can understand a man in his 20s being like that, but in their 30s he already should have settled and have a steady career in something for someone of the upper class (politics, army, managing land, civil service, etc). In therms of Mary and Edith marriages i think that both of them have their own set of problems, ovbiously it seems that Mary is trying to work alone in Downton, we didnt seem Henry to involved in runnig the palce neither knows much about farming and counry life, and even in the last series he didnt seem to involved with Mary´s parents, just a good looking object there to keep Mary calm. In the other hand Edith being stretched by the obligations that being a marchioness it is. For example they are close to the 29 crash, how that would impact Tom and Henry business, and those estates, then the whole abdication crisis, meaning that if Edith is still a marchioness, as a woman in high rank should have to play some sort of role in the coronation and the rest, and she already said that those things are boring to her.

Well in fariness she didnt married him because of being a marquess, she told Robert and others that she was happy with plain Bertie. In anyway, a important person like the marquess of Hexham would be traveling betwen his differents homes. They would be spend a big period of time in London when Bertie would go to the Lords, i also think that was only to make drama, But yes, as a marchioness and we have to consider that they are only 34 marquesses compared to 190 earls, and Brancaster (Alnwick) is impressive, so Bertie was one of the seniors and more richest, so yes, Edith would have to face a whole set of new duties, more than Cora as marchioness.

A bit yes, if Downton praises itself by have some connection with history it should have been mentioned, the first world war was a big thing, Sybil became a nurse, William was bullied by women for not being a soldier and then he was killed, Thomas was wounded Matthew was wounded and so on, Robert was frustated by not being sent to the front, Blake and Gillingham knew each other for the war, Edith worked in the farm and helped in the house, Cora was happy because finally she fell useful, Strallan got incapacitated, Gregson commented about the trenches with Matthew, Bertie stayed in the army, Tom was going to protest when he would be on parade, and so on. If Mary is true to her own words that she should marry "sensibly" and as tipically women from the aristocracy she could have never married a person who "ducked" service for his country, one of the roles of upper class men was to serve their country in the armed, for that reason they died in masses as officers, in reality a humble private had far more chances of coming alive than a upper class young man. But if they accepted him in the family is perhaps his motives to not go to the war here honourable.

Most probably, but that is the frustating part of the character they never more gave info about his background, we never saw other relatives. Maybe he stayed in england working in some ministery or something, but that contradicts his profession as a car driver. Perhaps he stayed in england working in something related to motorcars, remember that in that area the army was replacing horses for trucks and so on, so perhaps he stayed in the private sector developing new technologies and thay way he avoided service.