sark1624

Yes, for the rest of the society back then Mary marrying Henry Talbot wouldnt have a big deal, Henry Talbot was not tittled or rich, but he was remotely connected to the landed gentry, he was a "gentleman", something similar to Bertie Pelham when he was the estate agent, personalities aside, both were connected to the landed gentry and their names would be in debretts peerage book. But in the Downton universe, everybody knew that Sybil was that kind of woman, even Rosamound said that Sybil would be happy living in a simply cottage but not Lady Mary Crawley (in the plot in wich she starts havind doubts about Matthew when Cora is pregnant again). So, in perspective and considering Lady Mary personality and character she married very down more than Sybil.

Well, i also come from a country who gain independence and became inmediatily a republic; it is not my intention to start a fight, but i think that every country builds myth about its past, also the fact that in america there is no a monarchy it doesnt mean that there is no a aristocracy, even that i am not american there is people in the US who felt proud that their family is old money, they go to harvard, they are billionaires, they have servants, they also mix with the smart set, they do only fashionable charities and so on; perhaps the brits are more honest about and they do it up front. My country is small, but there is also some sort of aristocracy, they are businessmen who their ancestors worked in the upper echelons of the spanish rule where, and they go only to certain unviersities, they even keep their old estates only for the prestige rather than the money, they have certain names, and they dont mix with the rest. In the particular case of Downton, the writter Fellowes is unashamely conservative, he can only see the aristocracy in rose tintes glases. The truth in those times is that the aristocracy in britain was in the margins, they no longer had economic, policial or social power; young working class people no longer wanted to be servant, they wanted normal jobs with free time and improve themselves, women no longer looked up women of the aristocracy for fashion, they looked actresses and so on because they were icons of meritocracy, industrialists or other new money no longer yearned to be aristocrats, if they wanted a castle they simply bought one from a broke aristocrat, policitians, even conservatives ones no longer mixed with the aristocrats. For Carson, the butler, it is very important to be the butler because he is old, in his days be a servant in a big house was the top job for a working class person because he could have clothes, a bed, a roof, 3 square meals; but working conditions for working class people were better in the 1920s so being a servant was no longer the top job that somebody from poor origins would dream. Certain attitudes of the Crawley family was totally innacurate, for example accepting a gay footman, or being too friendly with the servants, or living in luxury (the aristocrats were downsizing everything), selling their art works, jewels and so on; also accepting that one of their daughters had a child out of wedlock. But still the show is interesting about how people behave themselves about 100 years ago.

Wilson and Heath childhood were very similar, in fact, the conservatives elected Heath as a response to Wilson succes, he was the first lower middle class man to lead the conservatives. Both were raised in very humble enviroments, both were brilliant in university; but the main difference was in their character, Wilson had more chemistry with people (tha thelped him to lead a party so complicated as labour was in that time and being witty during elections).

It was not a fabrication, plots against Wilson were very real, even after all the years many think that his resignation was because he was pressured (i dont believe that, in fact privately he told some people that he was going to resing with dignity). I believe that in the 70s the army made some big military excersices in the airport without telling Wilson of the home scretary about it, they basically learned about it the press. Because is still a sensitive thing, in fact even Wiilson in the series first warns privately to the queen about it, if he wanted to go nuclear about it he could have go the house of commons and then the whole royal family would have been in trouble. In fact, a retired spy, admited how some in the secret services continued to plot against Wilson in the 70s, Peter Wright in his book spycatcher. The sad thing is that those people were so worried about searching comunists under the bed that they missed the ones over it. According to some people most of those men were retired colonial officers, with little intelligence and competence, basically during the 90s a Home Secretary undertook a major cleaning of the mi5.

I think that in all roundup, Napier was the more "suitable" man for any of the Crawley girls, he was an heir, he had a job (a proper job from someone from the landed gentry) and he was honourable. But seein Mary´s character for all the series it was clear that she never liked for a husband, in other therms he had the same personality of Bertie Pelham, so seeing both characters it wouldnt being weird that they both would have ended together. But again, it would have been seein bad that basically Edith must have Mary´s crumbs. The thing is that JF wrote Matthew Crawley as the only one with some respect for himself, he didnt allowed to be toyed by Mary, but sadly when they were married she was very rude to him and slowly he became more bland. There is an episode when Mary starts to flirt with Strallan only to anoy Edith, then Matthew just walk away in order to show that he was not someone who could be play it. Gillingham, Blake, and Henry Talbot basically allow themselves to be played by her, it found extremely humilliating in Talbot part when he basically came begging in the final episode when Mary send a telegram for him after all the fuss in previous nights, and when he was scared of showing her the car business. Remember, Matthew Crawley didnt gave a dam about what Mary and the rest of the family though about him working as a solicitor, it was something that he liked to do and they should have to respect that. That was the main difference betwen Mary and the rest of the suitors, even Napier showed some backbone when he realized that Mary found him boring.

In therms of couples Fellowes ruined a lot, it would have been totally inexplicable how Mary always had 3 or 4 young, healthy, suitors when the war killed a whole generation of upper class man. By all standars Mary is a beautiful woman and rich, but there were in that same period equally beautiful, richer and more younger girls to pick up. Similarly to Edith, by becoming a marquiss Bertie would have been the catch of the season, even dukes would have throwing their daughters to him, and his job is to produce an heir so he would neeed a young wife. I think that Tom should have moved to live with Isobel and then become some sort of son to her, give Sibbye a more liberal education, and then knowing a young intelligent middle class woman, maybe entering to politics as councillor in the local goverment, being an mp it seems to much for a ex irish rebel, the labour party would have never supported and ex irish rebel to get seat in parliament, neither someone who is related to the landed gentry and estate manager. Many women like Lady Mary would have ended single, not only because of the shortage of men, but because they also saw marriage as a burden, also Mary already made her job, she gave an heir to Downton. She could have easily work in the estate and enjoy boyfriend, have sex and basically and independent life, even, the aristocratic society didnt look that with bad eyes, again she did her job, she gave birth to the heir, so having lovers quietly was not a scandal. Many aristocrats did have lovers, the rule was to be quiet about, being puritan was more a middle class attitude rather than aristocratic. But in order to no ended alone, i think that Mary should have ended like someone like Blake, but all the men after Matthew were weak, all keep playing Mary´s game, and for that reason all look bland.

Exactly, every person who served in the front was given a campaign medal who are different from gallantry medals, for example Robert and Bates wear campaign medals from the boer wars but not from the ww1. Thomas is seeing wearing 3 campgains medals, normally those were given to those who were in the army in 1914 (remember that Thomas made arrangements with Dr Clarkson to be in the medical services), most of the people however joined when the warr was declared (for that reason they have 2) probably Matthew and Bertie had a similar history, both of them joined after the war was declared and they only arrive in 1916 to france (it took almost 2 years to train that giant volunteer army, who in the end was massacred in the somme, matthew´s first battle). What i was trying to say, that not being a veteran was something very frown upon by all people, if you were a upper class man, all the people expected that you should serve in some form, even Robert was depressed because he was left behind, William also wanted to join, people basically bullied those who were not in the army, they gave white feathers; men who were wounded or discharged were given some distinctives to wear in order to not be critized or get a job. There was a minority of men that for political reasons or religions didnt serve in the army, but they were given a lot of options, they could serve in medical services, and other not combat roles. The only way to avoid military service was that your work was too important for the country, like scientist or something like that. But i find hard to know what was Henry Talbot ocupattion, i would think that if he likes fast cars and machines he could have been in the flyng corps. But in any part of the show they show that he was a engineer, scientist, foreign diplomat and so on. And even Robert said, that he expected that her daughters married someone who served "king and country". I know that Matthew Goode has a lot of fans, but his character its look like some sort of play boy.

I also like the character of Gregson, perhaps the history it would have been better written, perhaps a divorced man (not that melodramatic crazy wife thing), the fact is that Edith working in the magazine was the only one in that family capable of escaping from the aristocratic life, even the good-inteligent-modest Matthew Crawley was sucked in when Robert and Mary basically bullied him to obey their orders, same with Tom. In the other hand, we must remember that was becoming more worthless, the future was the middle class, the professional class, even working class people no longer look the aristocracy as a role, movie stars were the big thing as a symbol of meritocracy, even the tribute to the uknown soldier was a symbol that the country was mourning the "ordinary man", not some aristocratyc heroe like Wellington or Nelson. Off course by basic logic a man as Bertie could have choosen any woman, in the show Mary say that if he would have been more handsome all the woman in England would have wanted him (the actor is not), but in those years a young healthy rich aristocratic man would have been rare, in line with history the most powerful aristocratic families (the devonshires and others big dukedoms) would have been ecstatic if they marry one of their daughters to him. For that reason, Mary sabotaging the union betwen Edith and Bertie and the family saying nothing was totally inacurate, or even if Mary announces her pregnancy to Henry Talbot it would have been meaningless in the pecking order to aristocratic life and world view of people like Robert and Violet. By the mere fact of inherting the tittle and the fortune, he would have been the catch of the season, fathers would have throwing to him their young daughters. But in the positive note, Bertie Pelham seems like the Matthew Crawley for Edith, and Edith doesnt look Cora who basically was pushed away by everyone in the family and look far more equal in their relation, in comparison lets say Mary and Matthew or in the xtreme Robert and Cora.

Somewhere i read that in a delted scene of the movie Bertie says to Edith that in the future she would need to spend more time in London in order to write. So, it seems that she is going to have some relation with the magazine. Off course, in economic matters she doesnt need to keep a job of any kind, but as character she need to have something of just being someone wife. But in realistic therms that is the problem with Edith, have a a rol as a marchioness and keep a magazine. Off course, if we see the series you would think that Edith more or less became something like Cora, but if you check the history, some of those aristocratic wifes became champions of liberal causes, they became trustees of college for girls and so on. And the character of Bertie it seems far more liberal than Robert, in the movie is the king of england who give the orders to Bertie to go to africa, basically the only one who can give him orders, so, say no to that is not easy, it is like a liutenant following orders of his captain.

Good points, i bet thath knowing Edith character the progressives would have been more interesting for her, those related to education and so on. But as a marchioness she should participe anyway. But it is good put in context everything, the aristocracy as such was loosing importance every day, common people were not so fixated with them compared to the times before the war; people started to emulate actors, singers, sportsman and so on because they represented meritocracy, the stories of humble origins and being suddendly being rich and famous. Yes, Gregson i think was from upper middle class, he mentioned that he went to college, very few people would go to college back then. So, i bet that he had comfortable origins, i think that the same level than Matthew and Isobel, part of the upper middle classes. About his wife, they gave so little clues, if he had the money they could have put her in a "good" (by those years standars) places. But if she weake up and so on, she also could challenge the will and maybe get a part of the money, but Edith now is rich by marrying Bertie, so it is not the money problem, but, that would be a huge scandal.

I dont remember well but it seems that there is rule that if of the dukes is out of the country, the other must stay in order to carry the duties. Also, it would be very difficult for any tittled man say no to the the king, because if it in that way, what is the point of having aristocracy? In other words, Robert and Bertie are representatives of the crown in their counties and that extende to their wifes. For that reason, Robert and perhaps Bertie must participe in the local reserve army, go to local parades, charities, committes related and their wifes similar activities.

Yes, i think that the Prince of Wales would have considered Bertie too boring, but that was basically the whole idea of the king, basically "babysit" the Prince of Wales. If they wanted of him having fun, they should have send Henry Talbot, i dont know why, but i think that him is some sort of play boy. Yes, he is starting a business and have a baby with Mary but i never got the feeling that he was the "right one", i mean Matthew, Blake, Napier, looked more mature men. I can understand a man in his 20s being like that, but in their 30s he already should have settled and have a steady career in something for someone of the upper class (politics, army, managing land, civil service, etc). In therms of Mary and Edith marriages i think that both of them have their own set of problems, ovbiously it seems that Mary is trying to work alone in Downton, we didnt seem Henry to involved in runnig the palce neither knows much about farming and counry life, and even in the last series he didnt seem to involved with Mary´s parents, just a good looking object there to keep Mary calm. In the other hand Edith being stretched by the obligations that being a marchioness it is. For example they are close to the 29 crash, how that would impact Tom and Henry business, and those estates, then the whole abdication crisis, meaning that if Edith is still a marchioness, as a woman in high rank should have to play some sort of role in the coronation and the rest, and she already said that those things are boring to her.

Well in fariness she didnt married him because of being a marquess, she told Robert and others that she was happy with plain Bertie. In anyway, a important person like the marquess of Hexham would be traveling betwen his differents homes. They would be spend a big period of time in London when Bertie would go to the Lords, i also think that was only to make drama, But yes, as a marchioness and we have to consider that they are only 34 marquesses compared to 190 earls, and Brancaster (Alnwick) is impressive, so Bertie was one of the seniors and more richest, so yes, Edith would have to face a whole set of new duties, more than Cora as marchioness.

A bit yes, if Downton praises itself by have some connection with history it should have been mentioned, the first world war was a big thing, Sybil became a nurse, William was bullied by women for not being a soldier and then he was killed, Thomas was wounded Matthew was wounded and so on, Robert was frustated by not being sent to the front, Blake and Gillingham knew each other for the war, Edith worked in the farm and helped in the house, Cora was happy because finally she fell useful, Strallan got incapacitated, Gregson commented about the trenches with Matthew, Bertie stayed in the army, Tom was going to protest when he would be on parade, and so on. If Mary is true to her own words that she should marry "sensibly" and as tipically women from the aristocracy she could have never married a person who "ducked" service for his country, one of the roles of upper class men was to serve their country in the armed, for that reason they died in masses as officers, in reality a humble private had far more chances of coming alive than a upper class young man. But if they accepted him in the family is perhaps his motives to not go to the war here honourable.

Most probably, but that is the frustating part of the character they never more gave info about his background, we never saw other relatives. Maybe he stayed in england working in some ministery or something, but that contradicts his profession as a car driver. Perhaps he stayed in england working in something related to motorcars, remember that in that area the army was replacing horses for trucks and so on, so perhaps he stayed in the private sector developing new technologies and thay way he avoided service.

Well if is in that way, that would be a very big stain in a upper class man, as i wrote before, all those men were expected to serve, even Robert was very dissapointed when he couldnt go to the front.

i saw again and since i like history it was weird that Henry Talbot didnt wear campaign war medals in neither scene, that means that he is not a war veteran. I am not saying that was something bad per se, Robert and Bates medals are those from the boer wars, Thomas and Bertie have ww1 campaign medals (Matthew, Gregson, Strallan, Gillingham, Blake and Napier were also veterans but we never saw wearing them). From what i know the only way to avoid being service in that period is by having a medical problem (Tom, who didnt want to fight anyway and Molesley in wich Violet faked his medical records) or have some special skill that make you important to stay working in that area a engineer or diplotmat, etc. From what i saw, i saw both sisters happy with their husbands, Mary seemed happy with Talbot, what worried her was the vast amount of work that Downton requires, and Edith was happy by being pregnant and with Bertie, but also was tired of "working" as a marchioness. In fairness, both of them knew what was ahead, Mary knew about the big task of keeping the estate afloat and even Bertie talk about being always on parade by being the new king of the county.

In the movie they showed the garage, it didnt look impresive to be honest, but it is a small business and they are just starting. The great depression didnt affect all sectors in the same way, for example the aristocracy always put their money in the land, so they didnt suffer too much in comparison to the heavy industries, banks and so on, and curiously in our days any acre of land is gold. Probably they would have been affected but also the middle class keep buying cars and other consumer goods, hard to tell.

Also it was illogic, ovbiously the role of Cora and Edith by marrying a tittled man would have been a hard one, for that reason, also was totally idiotic seeing Cora doing nothing and that Violet would have been still active. In the moment that Robert´s father dies, inmediatily Robert becomes the earl and Cora the countess, in that aspect, Cora would have been 24/7 participating in charities (along with ALL her daughters), in meetings, and so on. Curiosly, managing hospital committees became very handy for the country, because all those aristocratic girls knew how a hospital is run at least in its administrative way, those women stated inmediatily to prepare hospitals in those houses and very few people in the country knew how a hospital really works and with thousands of casualties it helped a lot. Also common people expected that from them that sort of action, people understood that if they had privilegies they also have obligations, for that reason Mary doing nothing would have been very bad seeing by the rest, just compare that the royal princess were also nurses, that the gardens of Buckingham palace were used to plant vegetables. Idiotic also, that Robert only in 1916 o 1917 opens the house because he didnt want to be disturbed in his tea room, with that thinking Robert would have not lasted 5 minutes in the trenches infested of roting corps, rats and lices. The thing with Edith, is that she is the first woman in the family that tasted "freedom" by having and indepent job (outside of what aristoratic lady was supposed to do), so going back to the rol of hostess could have been a shock, but if she acepted Bertie when he was already a marquess she should have known very clearly whats was in ahead.

Yes, in one hand it is the the tittle and the estate, if i remember well, Robert still owns 50% of the estate and Mary the other 50%, so when Robert dies, George inherits the tittle and that 50% and he would have to share with Mary. But this is not treated neither in the series or in the movies, but most of the times and in order to avoid death duties those families would normally transfer the estates to the next heir, so it would be the normal way of doing things that Robert starts to give his share to George when him is older (21 something years old). The thing is that Mary dies, Henry Talbot (if there is no will) would inherit her 50% as husband. But again, this type of families would made all sort of arrangements in order to not divide the estates. Is the same with Edith and Bertie, if they have a son, he would inherit almost everything, the tittle and the estate, probably Marigold would inherit all that Edith got from Gregson. In the cruel world of aristocracy, the girls and second boys were always shafted. In economic therms, marrying Henry Talbot was a bad choice, a woman like Mary should marry someone who can bring a lot of money to the family, a Carlisle kind of man, the marriage is not only about love, it has an important economic impact, how it is divided and the administration, etc. In the other hand, Edith hit the jackpot, she married a rich aristocrat, her "job" now is produce an heir for them, because by inheriting that tittle and estate Bertie suddenly became a real catch, so Edith las lucky that she could marry him when she was in her 30s,

It was not treated in the series, but any aristocratic family would have pull out their debret copy and search for Bertie Pelham or Blake and they would have realized that they were heirs or were the next in line; again the shortage of men in the aristrocracy was very serious, for that reason any young man with certain credentials would have been a catch even a poorer one, Blake, Gillingham, Bertie, Henry Talbot...many rich parents would have been ok with their daughters marrying them. The problem is that Downton after season 2 forgot completely all the reppercursions of the war in the aristocracy, it was not weird, some distant cousin inheriting because the other men died in the trenches, or a lot of young war widows from the aristocracy that had the same age of Mary and Edith. About George and her sibling, any inheritance would have to be split (in a fair world), most probable is that George keep the estate, most of the money and a little is given to his sister. Again the whole purpose of having a son is that man inherits everything, in a ideal case it would be 2 boy to have a replacement if the other dies, and probably another girl to marry her into another aristocratic family. In the case of Mary it would have been wiser stay single, enjoy lovers, work the estate, and trying to give to George with some money.

Even before being a marquess Bertie Pelham would have been a catch, being the agent of an estate of the size of Brancaster (Alnwick Castle) was a very big deal, those posts were so important that were given to close relatives, before inheriting the dukedom, the current duke of northumberland was the estate agent when his brother was the duke. Also, Bertie Pelham gave info that before was a soldier, ovbiously a officer, again, tipically a profession related to the landed gentry. So, it was stupid from Robert complaining about Bertie even when he was an agent that he was not suitable for Edith, Robert as an aristocrat should have known that for them it was not good to have unmarried daughters because it also reflected bad in the partens, specially Cora,, and with the shortage of upper class men after the war, the humble estate manager Bertie Pelham would have been a real catch for girls from the aristocracy. If the surviving men were the lucky ones in that sense, people like Mary and Edith faced a new reality, women started to work, we see Edith with her magazine, Mary starting to manage the estate and so on. Women like Mary who were widows, stayed widows because men of her age simply went to more richer and younger women, now in the case of Mary, any child that she had with Henry Talbot it would be less money to George, and we know that the whole point is thay they are trying to keep Downton alive.

she wasnt, but there were many widows of her same age. For that reason an aristocratic man, for example bertie, could easily pick anyone. The very few rich and tittled men were very rare, so any aristocrat would be throwing her daughter to them. Even Rose with all her beauty couldnt be hard find a tittled and rich husband, because her family was poor. Remember those unions were pragmatic, men from the aristocracy needed rich, and young (to produce heirs) women. Even Henry without a tittle and money woudl have been a catch because of the shortage of men, no parent wanted a spinter daugher.

The problem with Mary and running Downton it could have been more developed during the series, sadly the series were about her love life. The fact is that most of the aristocracy were facing big and reald problems, only the very rich were ok. The thing is that the series was not realistic about the true aristocratic life of those years, for example, it would have been imposible that the family would have forgave Edith for having a child out wedlock, or Sybil marrying a servant, or the family rejecting Strallan, or Robert not being called to fight in the war, for example Robert was a professional army officer with combat experience, remember that the british army was very small, so when the war started many men were called up again to the very least help to train the hordes of civilians who joined. In realistic therms, Mary could have been better if she stayed single and focusing her energies in running Downton, again, nothing weird on those times because there were a lot of war widows, the landed gentry who were officers during the war was wiped out, so many rich woman found themselves having lovers instead of marryign again, for the simple reason, that the rich and tittled men were very rare, so those men could easily pick up a more young, wealthy woman, same with Edith. Also i dont remember well, but the hustband back in the day has the legal faculty of managing the wife´s money, adding more problems, also if Mary or her new husband dies, the inheritance it would have to be splited. In the case of Edith, the thing about being a wealthy marchioness also has her burdens, every charity in her area would have requested her participation, from the school village, hospital, scout girls, etc. It is a bit unrealistic that Edith found themselve surprised for her new obligations, every aristocratic girl knew very well what kind of life was expected from them, same with the man, for example every aristocratic young man would have to participe in the army, for every privilege that the aristocracy had, there were also obligations.

I dont know the rules, ovbiously Bertie and Edith outrank everybody there, but they are no the hosts, for that reason i think that, first is the family host, then the rest. Because in the parade, Edith and Bertie are in a sort of podium with Cora, Robert, the queen and the rest it is a level ground. The movie was ok, i think that downstairs plot was silly, i think that again, Fellowes is afraid of showing the real opinion of downstairs people, for working class people the big strike was a very very big thing.