cheezwhiz346

Widely loved episodes I'm weirdly meh about: The Zeppo Fool for Love ...it's not that I don't technically think these episodes are good episodes. I just don't necessarily agree with what I feel the show is trying to tell me. Which does not need to be something that destroys my enjoyment of an episode, and I will still rewatch FFL, but overall: meh. Once More With Feeling- I think it's perfectly nice and was quite a feat. I just don't think it's as amazing as I often see it described as being. Normal Again- I don't know how widely loved it is, but I feel like it's a pretty popular ep. But the idea that Buffy had spent time in an institution felt like a retcon to me and the ending of her in the institution felt like a cheap trick, so ultimately I'm pretty meh on this one as well. I don't know that aside from CwDP there are many eps in S7 that are widely loved, but I've seen people discuss 'Help' in a positive manner, and though I like the actress that episode is just completely boring from beginning to end for me. Also was not a fan of Storyteller. Widely Unloved Episodes that I Adore...or at least mildly dislike :): I think a lot of ours on this list will be the same as well. I pretty much love S2 straight through, so I never get when people really don't like some of those episodes. Also I am big into fairy tales/folklore, so I loved Gingerbread, and that's just conceptually and doesn't even touch on the lovely Cordelia and Giles interaction in that episode. Him I just cannot with, but I do understand calls that the tone of it harkened back to S1 BtVS. Other than early season stuff... I have a bit of a soft spot for Family, even though I don't think on anything close to an objective scale it's a good episode.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with 'Hush.' Though I still adore it, Restless is the one I can rewatch more and more and notice more things that were put in there and different avenues and character insights, while Hush is funny and clever but gets less so the more I see it, simply because it doesn't go that deep. And yeah, I think I agree about Willow/Tara. I'm pretty ambivalent about their relationship in general; Tara in season 4 almost seemed like someone Willow conjured up from her mind after all the hurt with Oz (I'm particularly thinking of that one scene where she says her time with Tara is something that's just 'hers'). Not that I disliked Tara, per say. There's just an ambivalence.

Amensisterfriend, I would post my lists for finales and big bads as well, but honestly I think they'd look just the same as yours. I remember having a conversation after an undergrad class about favorite Buffy big bads (as you do) and I said the Mayor, and the two people with me said Angelus and Glory, respectively, and even at the time I remember being like, Glory? Really? Okay then... I will say that the order of the second list would have changed for me if Professor Walsh had been kept alive and she was the big bad of that season, when she was a badass psych professor and scholar and head of the Initiative, rather than simply 'mother' who watches Riley 24/7. Her being killed off was definitely a failure of that season for me.

It's interesting, because when I talk about the relationships I love on the series, I'm really only talking about the first 4 seasons. Beyond that I think the relationships on the show in general really suffered. Buffy and Giles: While I don't like what they did with Hank in service of it, the Buffy/Giles relationship was a favorite from the very beginning. Actually, you know what? Giles and everybody, except probably Faith. I really like how he played off of the rest of the scoobies, including Willow, Xander (though I wish they had done more with that- that's a relationship I wished they had gone into more), Cordelia, and Anya. Even Spike. Faith and the Mayor. I could watch them all the time, honestly. Buffy and Willow. From the time when they first met and Willow asks if she should move, I really loved their friendship. I do think it was a little unbalanced at times, but a)Buffy is the main character, and b)real friendships are like that. Overall I think they were two particularly well-done characters, and I liked the way they played off one another, even if the way they did that wasn't always healthy and even though I didn't always like them. Buffy/Xander/Willow, particularly in the first couple of seasons (things like the dramatic scene in the talent show from s1 immediately jump to mind). I loved Willow and Oz for what it was, when it was, but at least part of that is because of how much I liked Oz. I go back and forth about how I feel about their relationship in retrospect when I think about Willow's whole arc, but he was just such a great presence on the show and I liked them together. I liked the potential in Xander and Cordelia, even though I never really thought he deserved her (it was the same issue I had with his relationship with Anya; he always seemed to want to put the women he dated down, like he half didn't even want to be with them; it bothered me comparatively less with Cordelia than it did with Anya, because Cordelia took a lot less of Xander's crap and had more of a sense of self than Anya did). Still, they had good chemistry and contributed to the show being fun to watch. Spike and Dru in the first half of S2; I love that she was referred to as Spike's 'sometime paramour' by Giles, and just all their scenes together were wonderful. Angel and Buffy; this could be for a number of reasons, because there are a lot of technical things I actually don't like about the relationship (the whole vamp/human age difference and violent murderous past issues--which also holds for Xander/Anya--compounded with her being so young when they started dating; him keeping things from her; etc.), but either because SMG played Buffy with such self-possession or just because I was so young when I first watched it, I never felt a real power imbalance here; I have always had a soft spot for Angel even though I totally get why a lot of people really dislike him and how manipulative he can be. I think one of the reasons the later seasons suffered is because of how much everyone was kind of paired off: in season 4 it was Buffy/Riley, Xander/Anya, Willow/Oz then Willow/Tara; in s5 it was Buffy/Dawn after Riley left, then in s6 it was Buffy/Spike with some Dawn, but still X/A and W/T (s7 I'm not even going to touch because it was all over the place). Aside from some very small moments like Anya and Tara having a talk about computers/the internet in possibly season 5 (also Triangle gave us some Willow and Anya), there weren't a lot of moments where different people got to interact, and that was detrimental to the show, IMO, because the relationships in the first 3 seasons showed how many different areas of potential there were.

I'm wondering whether this will be easier or more difficult... S1: The Pack, definitely; probably Teacher's Pet, as well; possibly either The Harvest or Angel, mostly because S1 BtVS Darla is just so over the top (with the exception of her first scene, which was brilliant) S2: Ted (watching someone not be believed about another person's horribleness makes me wince just thinking about it; it's really hard for me to rewatch); possibly Inca Mummy Girl (with the exception of the line 'Not her, the Eskimo.'); that's all I can pick for S2, honestly. If forced to choose, though, I might be less likely to rewatch something like Reptile Boy. S3: Beauty and the Beasts; The Zeppo (I think I have noted in UOs why I don't particularly like watching this ep.); Homecoming S4: Where the Wild Things Are (I cannot even with that episode); Wild at Heart (too painful); I almost never rewatch Living Conditions, but I'm not really sure why, outside of general disinterest in the plot; probably Goodbye Iowa (get over yourself, Riley) S5: Buffy vs. Dracula (I like the idea, I just never enjoyed it as an episode); The Body (without commentary; it's just too heavy and silent and long to rewatch); Into the Woods (unless for some reason I want my blood pressure to spike with rage); The Replacement (clever idea but I feel like this was that point where they were running out of ideas about what to do with Xander) S6: Dead Things (I have read good defenses of this episode but the bleakness of it, even in the name itself, is just unrelenting); Life Serial (the sequence of Trio tricks actually seems like it takes forever); Gone (b/c of the interminable social services subplot); probably Wrecked S7: Beneath You (the dog dies and everything goes downhill from there); Get it Done; Lies My Parents Told Me (UGH, too much rage; can't rewatch); either Touched or End of Days (I can't even remember the difference between them; maybe lets go with the one where the Guardian shows up and is killed 20 seconds later-- don't even know which one that is). I think this actually was a bit easier, in the later seasons at least.

Re: season 1- while season 2 will forever be my favorite because of how unbelievably emotionally invested I was in that season when it first aired, season 1 is a close second, for all the reasons you mention. I think it might be the season when I like the Buffy character the most, as well; not that I dislike her in other seasons, but just how warm and nice she is when getting to know Willow and Xander and Giles and the four of them becoming the core scoobies. I love all of the eps within as well (and IR, YJ has a great example of why I like Buffy so much then- when Willow says 'Malcolm said you wouldn't understand,' Buffy simply says, 'Malcolm's right,' in this totally calm manner, while still managing to convey to Willow that she is on her side). But anyway, yes, I love the general more upbeat, campy nature of the whole thing, and even though I'm glad for most of the directions the show went in after that, I still love season 1 above most other seasons.

S1: same as you have, ASF S2: Halloween; Lie to Me; Becoming (Part 2); and Killed by Death if we're not including DVD commentaries; if we are, then Innocence. S3: Once again, same as you have, though I'd add Consequences. S4: Fear, Itself; Hush; Restless (with commentary); Something Blue S5: The Body (with commentary); Intervention; Triangle S6: Bargaining (part 2); Tabula Rasa; and I can't think of a third, no matter how long I stare at the episode list. It's not that I hate season 6, but I think I have to get into it and watch it through, rather than watch standalones. S7: Same Time, Same Place; Conversations with Dead People; Empty Places (mostly b/c I'm a Faith fan and I like her here)

Thank you for this post/this thread, so much. Agree with everything about Xander/Willow/Buffy evolving from outsiders to insiders (and YES to the Angela Chase-->Brandon Walsh comparison). And the thing is, I could totally see Xander ragging on the trio because they represented the high school nerd he saw himself as and was trying to get away from (see all the times he gets their stereotypically 'nerdy' references and then backtracks, and his general high school-tinged meanness towards them ["you've never had one tiny bit of sex, have you?" etc.]), but I don't think that was framed quite clearly enough. Either way, though, to me it's irrelevant because we liked Buffy/Willow/Xander partly because they were outsiders, and the move to insiders just left me as a viewer feeling disconnected.

While I disagree about Willow's characterization (I don't think of her as evil, but I think hubris was an issue for her that was pretty consistent), I totally agree about Marti Noxon. I know she's written some episodes I wasn't fond of, but Joss knew what was going on; the man's not perfect, and he's capable of some pretty awful plots/characterizations. That doesn't mean he hasn't written (and doesn't continue to write) good material; it just means he can be blamed for stuff.

This is a really good point, and though Lorelai's behavior in the Max relationship and how it affected Rory is something I've seen brought up in the past, for some reason it never bothered me as much, at least when I first watched the show (when it originally aired). I don't know if it's just because I watched the show when I was Rory's age and I tended to trust the kinds of things Lorelai said more automatically, or if it had to do with framing, or what, but I agree that Lorelai did let her relationship with Max hurt Rory. Maybe it didn't bother me as much because a) Lorelai acknowledged that it hurt Rory's reputation (even though she kept seeing him anyway), b) Max was not intentionally trying to hurt Rory, and c) Lorelai was called out on her behavior by both Rory and Emily. I think what bothers me more (personally, YMMV obviously) is that Rory did not seem to acknowledge that Dean in particular was being hurt by the whole thing with Jess until well after the fact, and that she didn't want to hear anyone else tell her she was in the wrong, and Jess was being surly at best to the people she cared about most. Lorelai took her lumps, at least partly (though the whole engagement/road trip to Harvard showed a pretty big lack of insight into the fact that her decision to marry or not marry Max would have seriously affected Rory).

It's so strange because I feel like even though season 2 is probably my favorite overall, I rewatch episodes from seasons 5, 6, and 7 more than any others. I feel like this might be a UO here, but a lot of my faves to rewatch are in season 6 specifically (Last Night Gus, This Episode Sucks, Heeeeere's Lassie, Autopsy Turvy, and Santabarbaratown). Maybe I just loved the way they did theme episodes and homages, as some of my other faves are Dual Spires, Lassie Jerky, Tuesday the 17th, and Mr. Yin Presents... One that I didn't particularly like (probably because I hyped it so much in my mind) was 100 Clues. I'm a huge Clue fan, but I just could not get into that. I wasn't a fan of most of season 8, but the finale was just right, I thought. I enjoyed all the relationships on the show to one degree or another, but the Shawn/Gus dynamic was really the core.

This is exactly why it's so hard for me to rewatch the Jess storyline from season 2/early season 3. Rory has feelings for Jess and therefore justifies everything he does and the way he acts to the people closest to her. It's not even Jess's behavior itself that bothers me so much; it's Rory's tacit acceptance of it as she watches other people that she cares about be hurt by it. Now, I agree that Dean should have confronted Rory about her feelings for Jess a hell of a lot earlier than he actually did, and I definitely think he shouldn't have gone to Lorelai about it so the two of them could try and steer Rory away from Jess, but Rory wanted to have her cake and eat it too and pretend she was still all for Dean and that was really hard to watch.

Well, to be clear, I said the show's backing of Xander's speech never failed to tick me off. I never said anything about what Xander had the right to say or not say. It was the way in which the whole thing was presented and framed, that, IMO, was the problem, and people can obviously take that different ways.

Yeah, I have actually never had a problem with her doing that. I'm actually very close with my parents but do not live close to them specifically because they have some different expectations for me than I have for myself, and I don't want constant reminders of that. And they are nowhere near Emily and Richard territory (particularly Emily) in terms of being controlling. I mean, even ignoring Emily's behavior in season 5 and Wedding Bell Blues (and Lorelai's inexplicable return to FND), she would still often refuse to give Lorelai the boundaries she asked for. And Lorelai isn't completely innocent in how she treated her parents, obviously, but ignoring people's boundaries, even if you think you have the 'right' to because you are their parent, is something I'm not going to sympathize with.

"Why is it okay for Giles to kill Ben, doing it because Buffy "can't," because she's a hero..." Yeah, even without all the slain knights, I don't get this. I mean, I love when Giles kills Ben, and I think that's totally in-character for Giles to do. I just don't get how 'Buffy can't kill Ben because she's a hero'--especially on top of her statements about protecting Dawn from the other scoobies earlier in the episode--is an actual line of reasoning. Yes, Buffy is a superhero and there's a mythology there and stories to be told, but so much of BtVS was about breaking down the aspects of mythology that didn't make a lot of sense, and undercutting them in a way while still telling a compelling superhero story with its own mythology. Maybe Giles just meant that Buffy had a part to play in this battle and killing an innocent was not meant for her, but still... again, even without the knights, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'm fine with Giles killing Ben and Buffy refusing to do so, but Giles' reasoning just didn't need to be in there (though it did add creepiness to the overall moment, I thought).

I have lots of contradictory feelings about Xander, in that I never really disliked him as a character (and part of this might be that I started watching the show when I was so young (around 12) and if I came to it later I might have felt differently), but there are things about the way he is sometimes portrayed that really get to me. As in, I feel like Joss wanted him to simultaneously be a kind of stand-in for himself, and also for the geeky/normal 'everyman.' The everyman is a concept I have a problem with in general, because it basically says 'there is such a thing as a default human and we're telling you this is it, so relate to this character.' And that's just not a true concept. And I think this was proven throughout the show as Joss seemed to get a bit bored with his storyline and started ignoring him in later seasons or giving him kind of generic plotlines that he felt like an 'everyman' should have (fear of marriage/commitment/etc.). And that bugged me, because when Xander wasn't this representative/token character, he was really likeable to me as a character (even if I didn't always agree with him/relate to him). It's kind of like Xander had a reverse Smurfette/token female thing going on (even though there were more male characters on the show and it's a bit more complicated than that).

"so many of her scenes seem like the same thing" Yeah, exactly. Most of her scenes have all the same elements; I feel like you could switch some of them around within the season and it would make very little difference. Also, backing everyone up on Anya's overall lack of real characterization throughout her tenure on the show. I still think the actress was great and brought a lot of warmth and humor and pathos to the character, but I feel like the writers depended on her skills too much, and left out quite a bit of actual characterization. Finally, ugh, Xander in Into the Woods. The show's seeming backing of his speech will never fail to tick me off. "Buffy should take romantic advice from a guy who stopped being in puppy-love with her all of ten minutes ago and run after a dude who basically cheated on her because Cheaty McGraw loves her and Slayers can't be choosers" This exactly. Like what the hell, Xander? It also gets to my larger issues with Xander (which I'll have to actually take to that thread when I get the chance) regarding people tending to view him as the 'everyman.'

I think I'm going to need to re-watch season 4, honestly (a lot of stuff happens in that season that, although good ideas, I find incredibly frustrating to watch, but I still definitely find it worth re-watching). There are certain memories I associate with their relationship as soon as I think of it (Wesley telling Lilah 'I wasn't thinking of you when you were here,' Lilah dressing up like a 'good girl'/studious type/Fred) and I know there was more; I think certain cruelties in that relationship are overwhelming the bigger picture for me. I think part of it also is that I never felt like Wesley's fixation on Fred was shown in a realistic light; I think the show put too positive a spin on it, like she was his light at the end of the tunnel, or something, and it creeped me out a bit.

I don't really know, honestly; something about Lorelai and Max's relationship always rang false to me, and while I thought LG did a really great job in this episode conveying Lorelai's range of emotions throughout, I just couldn't really buy it when she told Emily that he might have been the love of her life. On the other hand, if I take this episode more as an example of how impulse-driven Lorelai can be, it makes much more sense to me (her whole relationship with Max and all the on-again, off-again stuff makes more sense to me, as well)

I think this is a UO around certain parts: I really disliked Wesley/Lilah, and I wasn't really a fan of Wesley's more dark/angry seasons (which is basically from Connor-stealing on). It's not that I don't think it made sense that Wesley could be morally ambiguous--everything from him stealing Connor to keeping Justine in the closet to wanting to let Fred kill her mentor was totally in-character behavior--it was that they tried to make him stereotypically 'cooler' while doing those things, and that wasn't necessary, IMO. Nerdy, suited up Wesley from BtVS was perfectly willing to let Willow die in 'Choices.' He didn't need to look/act like, as Willow said, the Marlboro Man to make these kinds of decisions. I felt like the same was true about his relationship with Lilah; that they thought that was a stereotypically 'dark' thing to have happen; for him to be in that relationship. And even then I could see him doing it, but the things he says to her sometimes are particularly cruel, and IDK, I guess I could buy him saying some of the things he said to her, but I feel like I often see Lilah fans like that relationship as well, and IDGI, because he went back and forth from trying to 'save' her (which she didn't need) to putting her down, and was seldom anywhere in-between. I'll have to think of a better way to formulate my thoughts on this, but I think I could have used more of a separation between 'morally gray' and 'badass,' because the one does not necessitate the other.

I think the reason they don't stand up to scrutiny is because (and this is my assumption based on my own reaction) people felt like Spike took over the show, from the 'reasons' not to stake him to the soul in season 7 to his sparkly ubervamp-destroying necklace. It felt a bit like his journey as a character was taking more precedence than say, Xander's or Willow's, especially towards the end. And that doesn't have to necessarily be a problem, assuming you like Spike. The only time I really have a problem with him is s7 (especially the narrative with him/Wood/his gross coat) because I felt like the show championed him when it really shouldn't have. At the same time, that could be said about a lot of characters in season 7, which in my not-terribly-unpopular opinion sucked pretty hard. In all the arguments I've seen for or against Angel or Spike on BtVS, I honestly think it just comes down to personal taste, especially with how the show portrayed the both of them with or without souls, because I feel like those goal posts were moved around quite a bit (going from 'you're not looking at your friend; you're looking at the thing that killed him' to a vampire choosing to go get a soul). etc. etc. etc. I think this is a definite UO: I'm not really a fan of The Zeppo, and I never re-watch it. I like the concept of the episode, and I think there are a lot of ways in which it is executed pretty exceptionally. But I just a) don't like the idea of that claim of extreme character development in one episode (though to be fair it didn't seem to last more than that one episode; Xander's characterization tended to really be 1 step forward, 2 steps back for me), and b) the idea that Xander does all these manly man things (goes on a joy ride, gets in a fight, tries to impress a girl, has sex, doesn't blink over a bomb, etc.) and then he's cool at the end. I mean, to me the stuff he does throughout the episode is no less superficial than his initial thought of being the 'car guy.' I don't think he was any braver in this episode than he's been in the past. It's ephemeral. And I guess in that way the aftermath of the episode proves that, in that Xander doesn't seem too changed/to have a new sense of self/self-confidence after that. IDK, I guess it seemed to me that the episode was trying to get me to see Xander's growth as real, even if no one else saw it, when really what I saw was Xander kind of stumbling into some stuff that made him feel cool, and feeling cool about himself for a brief amount of time thereafter.

So much great discussion! I really wish I could log on at work, because I still sneak and read it and then I try and remember everything I want to say. :) ITA, especially the part about not really being able to rewatch, and it sucks, because those are some good episodes overall, but the triangle stuff makes me so mad at Rory's character. I can watch s6 Rory before I can watch triangle Rory from s2/3. I agree with everyone who says it made sense for her to act that way, but that level of obliviousness, especially when it is hurting other people, and combined with the general praise of Rory throughout those episodes, just gets on my last nerve. Again, totally in-character, but it's a character trait I kind of despise in general. And definitely agree about A-Tisket, A-Tasket. That episode, where Rory's all 'it's the rules, I have to go off with Jess' was so freakin' annoying. I can't help getting that 'but I'm Rory and I want to have my cake and eat it too and you can't say anything bad about it because I'm Rory' vibe from the whole thing. Very, very true. And although I always felt this behavior was in-character for Rory, I never looked at it quite the way you did (with the lack of men in her life in any capacity), and maybe keeping that in mind will help make certain s2/s3 episodes easier for me to stomach. Agree wholeheartedly on all of this, and that's a great point about JP playing anger but not hurt, and that leading the audience not to sympathize with him as much as the script perhaps calls for.

I'm wondering if rewatching the early seasons will cause me to see Dean's behavior as more menacing. It's definitely possible, and I totally agree that he was underwritten (and dumbed down a bit once Jess entered the picture). I do know, for instance, that my opinion of their (first) breakup changed from the first time I saw it 'til now- he built her a car and told her he loved her after only 3 months? And then broke up with her when she didn't immediately say it back? Much less sympathy from me this time 'round. And I have more sympathy for Rory, because Lorelai liked Dean so much I feel she had some undue influence on Rory's relationship with Dean that shouldn't have been there. At this point, though, I can't help but feel for Dean once Jess enters the picture, because Rory so obviously has a thing for Jess, and Jess himself spends a hell of a lot of time throwing it in Dean's face, and Rory lets him because of her own denial, etc.

Ugh, yes. I'm mostly over my anger at the end of Rory 1.0, but there are still a couple of scenes that can really get my ire up about the character, and that's one of them. Another is the scene in s6 where she has suddenly taken charge of all the people she was doing community service with (including those who were ostensibly the leaders), but that's for different reasons. :)

I think my opinion of Logan has changed a bit for a couple of reasons, but I think it boils down to the following: It's been long enough that I have some perspective on the show, in terms of where the character of Rory went post-season 4. At the time it was happening, I was more attached to the show's characterizations/plot twists in general, and took her (in my view) lack of a sense of self personally (I have such a healthy relationship with television, I know), and that character change coincided with the arrival of Logan. In 'You Jump, I Jump, Jack' for instance, I wasn't so much pissed at Logan for his pseudo-intellectual, privileged defense of the Life and Death Brigade as I was with Rory for buying into it. Now that I have some distance, I still think it's idiotic, but it's just the both of them being young and sheltered and surrounded by wealth. Even though there is that distance, though, I still largely disagree with the direction Rory's character went in, but I'm not actively angry about it anymore. This seems to be a UO with the GG fans I otherwise generally agree with: Dean from the first 3 seasons didn't bug me. I mean, I didn't think he was right for Rory, but there does seem to be quite a bit of hate for him in fandom, and I just... I think he and Rory both acted pretty dumb in that relationship. Now, post-season 3, that's another story. I really don't like where they went with his character at all. Still, if I do a full rewatch of the first 3 seasons maybe my opinion will change.