Demented Daisy
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Posts posted by Demented Daisy
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Oh no! I was wondering why he had gone silent on Twitter. :-( Hope he's better very soon.
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I think it would be rather foolhardy for any of them to remark on the ratings simply because it's a many-headed beast. No one reason for ratings to go up or down. If so, they would be awfully easy to manipulate, right?
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Hee! Lauren Tom just liked my tweet. *giggle* I do so love the SPN family. :-)
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Ooh, ooh! (In my best Gunther Toody voice -- kids, ask your grandparents.)
Can we add Mrs. Tran to that list? She could be Professor of... uh, How to Survive Long Term Demon Abduction. :-)
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Now, Ditty, that is entirely too logical. You know better than that. ;-)
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3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:
I am reading page 23 now but I am kind of slowed down because I am rolling on the floor laughing at the Sam's hand of ipecac quip. I have never heard that one. Good one Demented Daisy. You made my day!!
I can't take credit. It's an old name taken from our Television Without Pity days.
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Just now, Idahoforspn said:
That's a completely different thread and WAY before my time. I'm just going by what has been said here. Why don't we just agree to disagree, ok?
Wait a minute.
You're going to question my methods, but not even go back to the page of the thread, which I provided for you, to understand what my methods actually are?
Yes, definitely agree to disagree.
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My daughter (who was 9 when the show started), didn't start watching until it was available to stream, which must have been after Jan, 2012 (when we moved back to the US and streaming became available to us) -- so, after S7? She and her friends still watch, but since they're in college, they doesn't have time to watch live. She binges during the summer.
I think that's probably the norm for people her age (i.e. in college). But she could be an outlier.
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5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:
But you also said your count is not subjective. That it is literal which IMO means it's supposed to be definitive.
No, false equivalency there. I said:
35 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:But my methods make the numbers as objective as they can possibly be, IMO.
Definitive implies that I think that my numbers are the absolute last word on the subject. I have certainly never said that.
Again, I recommend that people start with page 23 of the Bitterness thread.
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1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:
The collection of the raw data IMO had subjective decisions on what data to include so I look at it as interesting and worthwhile but not definitive. IMO.
I never said it was definitive. Everyone is free to accept or reject my numbers as they see fit. I have never claimed otherwise.
I'm curious, though -- what about my parameters make you think it is subjective?
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Just now, CluelessDrifter said:
So, just to be clear, all kills are just kills
Yes, which is what I have always said.
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9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:
I know, just mostly using that as a way to explain why are feel there are times a kill can be subjective.
But what I'm trying to explain is that the way I count it is not subjective. It is literal. For example:
10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:Dean stabbed her but Sam held her.
Dean kill. One could argue that Sam got the assist, but it was Dean who plunged the blade into her stomach.
11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:Magda. Sam saved her but in the end Ketch killed her. So is that really a save?
Yes. What happens after Sam and Dean leave town is entirely out of their control. She's going to die eventually, anyway. Another example, Clip Show -- Crowley killed people that Sam and Dean previously saved, but I'm not going to go back and take them off the "save" list.
4 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:But the Show counted it as a save and a save for Sam. They gave us that on screen multiple times. It's a huge part of establishing Sam as a hero.
I'm not going to continue to argue this point. What the show says is immaterial to my parameters.
Agree to disagree.
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1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:
Actually, I have a question about Lester. Dean killed him, but by killing him without killing the wife, it saved Lester's soul, because Crowley couldn't collect on his contract. Is that included as a kill or a save or both?
That is considered, by my parameters, a kill but not a save. I count lives, not souls. Souls, IMO, are subjective because that's not always something that is cut-and-dry (see Crowley taking Bobby's soul to Hell).
When I started all of this, the argument was much like it is now, how unequal things were. I was curious to see if conventional wisdom was correct, that Dean was the killer while Sam was the planner.
4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:And is there a separate category for things like that, where victims die because of them, so say the nurse in LR or Lester?
No, because that is subjective. If someone wants to make that list, more power to them.
5 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:Or a separate category for people they've had to kill like Jeffrey in Repo Man or the brother in The Memory Remains?
I don't make a distinction between types of kill because that would be subjective. (Dean got "credit" for the kill in Repo Man; I haven't finished my analysis of season 12 yet.)
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21 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:
Your numbers are interesting and part of the data to consider. Just saying that stating they are entirely objective can be disputed.
By all means. But my methods make the numbers as objective as they can possibly be, IMO. That has always been my intent, to provide raw data.
How people interpret that data is entirely up to them.
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1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:
In SPN, during Windego, Dean lured the creature away and Sam lead the others out of the cave. Who gets the save. On one hand Sam is leading the people away from danger but a case could me made what Sam is doing is more of a hold since without eliminating the threat the people are still in danger. Depending on how you were defining save, you could give it to Sam or to Dean. Again neither is really right or wrong.
As for kills, if I'm understanding you right, that a kill is a kill if just look at just the physical act but sometimes it can be more than that.
A good example is Lester's wife. Say for example a demon killed her. Objectively, the demon who killed her is the one who did the killing, but Lester put a contract on her. IMO, Lester is equally responsible for that kill because of that. The courts would also hold Lester just as responsible.
Checking my notes on Wendigo, I counted it as a joint save and Dean got the kill.
Since Lester's wife didn't die, I can't answer that one. And, for what it's worth, I only count what Sam and Dean do because that's the source of conflict within fandom.
3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:Which makes my point. You can't definitevly say it was a joint save either. It's a subjective opinion.
And, as I said, it's my list with my parameters. If you reject my parameters, fair enough. But I can, within my parameters, call it a joint save.
Except, I just double-checked my notes and I was incorrect. I did not count it as a joint save. I counted it as "no save" because no characters were shown, on screen, to be saved. Sam and Dean figuratively saved billions, but not literally.
Mea culpa.
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Just now, Idahoforspn said:
But the Show doesn't count Swan Song as a joint save. They have said that in the show more than once. It was Sam. A lot of fans hold that opinion too. Counting it as a joint save was a subjective decision, not objective.
I disagree that the show doesn't count it as a joint save. Too many writers, too many show runners, to say that "the show" believes one thing over another, IMO.
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11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:
Are you being snarky or genuine in not knowing why I asked?
You're new around here and I took a break for several weeks, so I understand why you're confused.
When I ask a question, I am always genuine. I have zero interest in "gotcha" questions, nor will you find an instance of me asking one. If I ask a question, it is because I genuinely don't understand and am asking for clarification. Nothing more, nothing less. (ETA If I am being facetious, which I often do, I will include a ";-)" to indicate so.)
11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:Does it depend on whether or not the meat suit was still alive?
If the possessed is still alive after an exorcism, I count it as a save.
11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:Do you count every little minion demon without a name, or just the MotW or Big Bads?
I count everyone/everything that dies on screen.
11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:I think the coming up with plans one is subjective.
As I already stated.
48 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:The most subjective is who gets credit for the plan.
Since I'm making the lists, I'm following my own parameters. I never said otherwise. If someone disagrees with my parameters, they are (of course) free to make their own lists.
I am not infallible, nor have I ever claimed to be. When people have questioned my numbers, I have adjusted accordingly. I highly recommend, though, before questioning my methods or numbers, you (general you) read the original thread and my explanations.
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3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:
Sort of, not exactly. I don't think we see Sam doing it because it's not something Sam does regularly. I think he just doesn't engage with people like that anymore and hasn't since S1.
Whoops! Sorry.
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9 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:
For example, did you count one save for Sam when he fell in the pit and saved billions of people or was it even counted? Even the show doesn't equate Sam saving billions of people and Dean saving the drowning child in Dead in the water. But a tick mark for each does.
I counted Swan Song as a joint save because it was a joint effort.
2 minutes ago, Katy M said:Does an exorcism count as a kill? How about when Dean burned the house down in Hell House? How about when Sam drives the Impala into the house in Pilot allowing Constance's kids to kill her?
Exorcism is not a kill. Stabbing a host with the demon-killing knife, thus killing the demon, is a kill.
Banishing a ghost is not a kill. Destroying a ghost is a kill.
Sam did not kill Constance, so, no, not a kill. An assist is just that, an assist.
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Just now, Idahoforspn said:
Except you said if the character makes multiple kills at once you only count it as one unless I misunderstood. So the multiple people Sam saved out of the warehouse when Show was trying to give us a Sam who has been running out of buildings since he was a kid counts as one save. Likewise the multiple kills by MofC Dean in the would be rapists house when they were trying to show us how Dean was losing to the Mark counts as one kill. It is interesting data. I just don't look at it as being as definitive as you do. It's almost that it's so objective that it's a little subjective if that makes any sense.
No, that does not make sense to me. How is it subjective that Sam/Dean killed in x number of episodes?
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1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:
And out of curiosity, how do you define the parameters for what is a kill and what is a save?
A kill is a kill. A save is a save. I don't understand the confusion there.
If Dean shoots the monster while Sam is shielding or ushering the PiP out, then Dean gets credit for the kill while Sam gets credit for a save. And vice versa.
If Dean and Sam both kill a monster in an episode, it's credited as a joint kill. Same with the saves.
The most subjective is who gets credit for the plan. But that's the one I struggle with the most. If they use Sam's research to kill the MotW, then Sam gets credit. If they use Dean's experience or instincts, then Dean gets credit. If they use both, then it's a joint plan. If the plan goes out the window, then no one gets credit.
6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:Even the apology one is subjective.
Not the way I count it. If Sam or Dean say "I'm sorry", unless it's the above mentioned situation, I count it as an apology. 100% literal. Same with "I was wrong" or "You were right."
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3 minutes ago, SueB said:
Jodi, Charlie, Eileen. All three have had conversations indicating they are/were keeping in touch with Sam or that Sam feels comfortable just calling them up.
But I think Ditty's point (sorry for speaking for you) is that we don't see Sam calling people for a chat -- not like we see Dean calling people he cares about.
Another instance of how they should show, not tell.
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7 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:
I think adding jokes would overly complicate things on the subjective side. For instance in this page alone, there has been quite a bit of back and forth on what was meant to be funny and what wasn't.
It's all subjective -- that's the point I was making.
As an example of subjectivity, when Bobby calls people "idjits", sometimes it's lovingly, sometimes it's a genuine insult, sometimes it's a joke.
In contrast, when I make my lists, those things are easily pointed to as who got a kill, who got a save, who apologized, etc. The only time I don't count it when someone says they are sorry is "I'm sorry, but..." statements. Those are not genuine apologies but a figure of speech. Regardless, I can point to the transcript -- it's not a matter of opinion, it's what the character said/did.
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“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever
in Supernatural
Yeah, something is off. For season 11:
How could the average be lower than the lowest number of viewers? S10 looks okay, but S8 is screwy again (high 2.51, avg 2.52). Same with S7 (high 2.011, avg 2.03). The rest look fine. Odd.
Oh, but this should probably be in the ratings thread.