tpel

I kind of feel like I want to break up with this show now. I won't, of course, because . . . Star Trek. But really, making Lorca a bad guy could be fun. Making him a perv is not so fun. I was already convinced that he was MirrorLorca, and thus believed that we would not have the character beyond this season. Still, I told myself, there would be this whole first season of fascinating Jason Isaacs awesomeness to look back on. Now it is tainted. The sweet scenes, like right after they saved Sarek and Michael told Lorca it was an honor to serve under him, and he got that interesting expression on his face -- if he was just MirrorLorca, it would be neat to look back and see that as him being touched by her words, despite his nature and agenda. Now its just gross. Also, the way he seemed to care about Tyler when he saved him from the prison ship now rings hollow, as Lorca just called his confederate "soldier" (like he did Tyler, to encourage him) and then watched him die horribly rather than saying the name of the guard's sister.

That certainly was gripping, but I'm not happy with the results: It looks like we've got Tyler back, rid of the Voq persona. But I never cared that much about him anyway. And I don't really understand why getting rid of the Voq persona (i.e., the underlying persona of the brain inside his skull) was more practical for L'Rell than getting rid of the Tyler overlay. Culber had some lovely scenes with Stamets, but they seemed to be going in the direction of him being dead dead, which I hoped was not going to be the case. I had more or less made peace with Lorca being MirrorLorca, and thus likely somewhat evil. But I had hoped, perhaps, when we knew his larger plan, that there would be some redemption for him. Far from it. Now they've made him icky. Grooming Michael? Ewwww. So, of three characters in peril, the least interesting one (in my opinion) stays with us, the sweetest one may be gone permanently, and the most interesting is well nigh irredeemable. On the positive side, Stamets talking to "himself" was awesome, and Saru had some nice moments.

I'm pretty sure Culber will be restored. If not, yeah, I would be upset too. With regard to the other points . . . With the possible exception of Lorca, whose agenda remains a mystery, the crew seems eager to get back to the prime universe. While the main reason behind their urgency is to deliver the cloak-penetration key to Starfleet, I wouldn't take the fact that they are not also wringing their hands over the possible actions of their counterparts to mean that nobody cares about this. Lorca is a pragmatic guy. Burnham and Tyler abstaining from sex wouldn't help him, and if their finding comfort in each other helps them cope with their mission, I think they would have his blessing if he knew. Though he might scowl at them first ;-) The mission was to get intel on the Defiant, to learn how it traveled between the prime and mirror universes without spore drive, in the hope that Discovery can use this information to get back home. As Saru observes, it is a crap plan. But they couldn't come up with anything better, and Lorca, who proposed the plan, clearly has some ulterior motives. Lorca noticed Tyler's lateness for duty and called him on it twice. But I guess he wants Tyler with them due to Tyler's overwhelming loyalty to Burnham and (to a lesser extent) Lorca. Whoever goes on this mission will likely have to do terrible things to maintain their cover. Lorca has reason to believe Tyler will do whatever it takes to protect Burnham. Of course, he probably believes that Tyler's recent issues are due to PTSD, not a Klingon lurking inside! Culber and Tilly appear to be listening to Stamets, but apparently haven't come up with much beyond Tilly's observation that his calling her "Captain" indicated that he could see other universes. Yeah, I go nothin' here. I love Tilly, but when the cadet is the expert, clearly something has gone wrong with one's staffing plan!

I'm grudgingly resigning myself to the likelihood that the Lorca we've known is MirrorLorca. I say "grudgingly" because I fear that, if this is true, we'll lose the character by the end of this season. I've been assuming that PrimeLorca went down with the Buran. But what if he didn't? I was contemplating a scene from "Despite Yourself" and it gave me a little hope. Burnham is filling Lorca in on their mirror counterparts and when she tells him of his failed attempt to assassinate the emperor he makes that really odd statement: "And here's me hoping I would run into a better version of myself." It's an odd thing for PrimeLorca to say, as one would be unlikely to find a better version of oneself in the mirror universe. But it's also a bit odd for MirrorLorca to say. Wouldn't he know that PrimeLorca is dead? Perhaps he even killed him himself. Unless MirrorLorca is genuinely in the dark about how exactly the switch took place (and, of course, he can't know anything happening in the MU after the switch). That is, he found himself in our universe by accident, maybe switching with his counterpart during transport a la "Mirror, Mirror". Just like the Discovery crew might wonder what the ISS Discovery is doing in the prime universe, MirrorLorca might wonder what his counterpart is doing in the mirror universe. And he might actually be rooting for him to have survived and gone on to do something interesting. Learning that the latest intel that the MU Klingon coalition has leaves off just after the assassination attempt means that PrimeLorca hasn't been very active in the last several months. Maybe that means he is dead. But maybe not. The only other support for this theory I can find is that Lorca seemed genuinely saddened that the Buran did not survive in the MU, perhaps indicating that his knowledge of the events surrounding the switch is incomplete.

Of course, it might not just be coincidence. If Lorca is MirrorLorca, that explains why MirrorLorca is missing. And Lorca is the one who recruited Burnham and probably Tilly, presumably because he knew of their roles in the mirror universe and wanted to use them. Georgiou was a chess piece that was not under Lorca's control -- hence his look of satisfaction at the end when she just showed up.

Lorca was in Burnham's ready room with her, when she was informed that another ship had appeared and was firing on the planet. She rushed out to the bridge, and called out to someone to bring Lorca. So he was on the bridge, too.

Yeah, Jason Isaacs is amazing. That one look, more than all his shady actions to date, confirmed that he is up to something and that, in some way, things are working out the way he wants them to. Despite the fact that he's been tortured nearly non-stop (for what, a week now?), in the scenes where he was talking to Burnham, he looked rough but in control. When Burnham called him on how his suffering might be affecting his judgment, I got the sense that he realized that she wasn't quite right, but that it had taken its toll on his ability to manipulate. The "sometimes the ends justify the means" was totally in-character, but if he were in better shape he would have slow-walked Burnham to this conclusion, perhaps tying it in with Vulcan needs-of-the-many philosophy. I think his "Hurry back . . . please." was genuine, though. Whatever he is up to, the dude doesn't want his only "allies" to get bumped off on a benighted peace mission, leaving him stuck in an agony booth indefinitely. And, though Burnham's optimism was touching, the plan did seem pretty awful: let's go chat with people who regard me as their mortal enemy and will likely shoot us on sight! Had MirrorSarek not been there, they'd be toast! Is it just me, or is MirrorVoq a way better character than either PrimeVoq or Ash Tyler? Can we just keep him? PrimeVoq is a bit whiny and put-upon for a Klingon, and Tyler spouts romantic banalities ("you're my tether"). But MirrorVoq seems comfortable in his own skin and gets stuff done! As for the turnabout in Vulcan alliances, perhaps it's not as extreme as it appears. Spock is half human. Maybe MirrorSpock -- estranged from Sarak -- embraced his Terran half, politically at least. He was grudgingly accepted at first, then proved himself to be ridiculously competent. By the time the Vulcans gave up the fight and allied with the Terrans, he was already in place and now could advance higher. His comment about how some of his associates who would avenge him are Vulcans appeals to the lingering fear that humans might hold toward their recent enemies.

Putting this under wish/fantasy, since I'm pretty sure it's not gonna happen . . . If, as currently seems likely, the Lorca we've known so far turns out to be MirrorLorca, I want them to find PrimeLorca in the mirror universe and bring him back with them. Then, for the rest of the series, we get a Lorca whose morality, though on the pragmatic side, is more in keeping with previous captains, but who every once in a while does something breathtakingly manipulative. Yeah, I know, if the guy we've known so far is MirrorLorca, that probably means that PrimeLorca is dead :-(

^^^ Sunflower seeds ;-)

Yeah, I thought we were supposed to wonder if maybe all three Lone Gunmen were there, at least momentarily. If Langly were alive, his hair might be long and gray. One of the others was short and stocky--but younger and maybe African American. So, clearly, they weren't the Gunmen, but it was a visual shout-out to them. Like many previous posters, I wasn't sure what the hell was happening, but totally enjoyed the ride. The Mulder and Scully interaction was delightful--funny and comfortable. Loved the reference to Kill-Switch. Langly was a hoot, but also poignant. In rough terms, I think this is where we are at in the myth-arc: CSM is trying to bring about an apocalyptic event because . . . reasons. Barbara Hershey and her shady crew would like to kill CSM to prevent this, or maybe just because he is evil. But they are kind of evil too, because their efforts to preserve people are elitist. Maybe. Actually, the thing that confused me most was why the personality preservation stuff was supposed to be bad. I mean, Langly et al knew it would be a simulation when they signed up. Yeah, it sucks to figure out that your existence is simulated, nothing means anything, etc. But I'm not sure how that makes them digital slaves, or whatever it is he said.

^^^ She didn't want Lorca put in the agony booth at all, but her main argument was that they might accidentally cause his death. She settled on insisting that he be installed properly and making it clear that if he died there would be hell to pay. I thought it was ambiguous, at the end of the first scene in the brig, whether "installed properly" meant put in a regular cell or put into an agony booth with appropriate non-fatality protocols. From the final scene, it appears to be the latter. I guess demanding that an infamous prisoner not be hurt would be so far outside the standard practice that it would arouse suspicion.

I was thinking the same thing. Why would anyone want to go back to a world where everybody wants to kill you, having failed to assassinate the emperor? The only explanation I can think of is that MirrorLorca is not acting out of self interest. Maybe he wants revenge on the emperor for killing his crew. Or maybe his attempt to kill the emperor wasn't just a coup to win the throne for himself, but an attempt to upend a vile system.

Yes, this was an awesome moment, largely because Lorca bypassed the usual discussion and took care of business himself. It's cool how clearly his character shines through in moments like this, despite the fact that his identity and agenda are still pretty unclear. To wit: The MirrorLorca hypothesis seems the most likely at the moment. At the time of the destruction of the Buran, MirrorLorca was somehow transported to the Prime universe. This makes sense of Lorca's flexible morals and the fact that he intentionally misdirected the last spore jump--trying to get back home. But why exactly would he want to go back? He was the most wanted man in the Terran Empire, after failing to kill the emperor. Not exactly a role one would be eager to resume. And while he took the mirror universe in stride pretty well, he did seem genuinely confused at times, such as when the Cooper was hailing them. Alternatively, he could be PrimeLorca, who wanted to go to the mirror universe, perhaps to try to rescue the Buran. I like this idea, but it is hard to square with the fact that he jumped before transmitting the Klingon shield algorithm to Starfleet. As devoted as a captain may be to his crew, it is hard to fathom him sacrificing the key to the war effort for them.

I have warmed up to the idea that the Lorca we've seen is MirrorLorca, so I would be OK with that as a plot development -- but ONLY IF PrimeLorca is still alive and we get him back. My fear is that, if all we have is MirrorLorca, he will be short-lived. I can't see MirrorLorca continuing on the show beyond season 1, or whenever Discovery returns from the mirror universe. And I worry about the show remaining as engaging without him. Thus, my "wishful thinking" continuation of the story would be that, in the back-half of season 1, we learn that MirrorLorca and PrimeLorca transposed at the time of the Buran disaster -- perhaps they are even collaborating somehow. PrimeLorca (whom the audience hasn't actually met yet) returns with Discovery to the prime universe at the end of the season; next season, he's the captain. The main reason I think this would be cool is because I think Jason Isaacs would totally rock playing a somewhat nicer version of Lorca, but one who every now and then displays the capacity for badassery and breathtakingly skillful manipulation that we saw from his counterpart. Alternatively, I would also like it if the Lorca character we've known all along is, indeed, PrimeLorca, and he has a very good reason for bringing Discovery to the mirror universe. It would have to be pretty huge to justify possibly killing Stamets (I know he's alive from the previews, but Lorca couldn't predict that), endangering the rest of the crew, and failing to transmit the key to the cloaking technology to the rest of Starfleet. He mentioned once that "trillions" of lives were at stake. Maybe he just meant potential casualties of the Klingon war in the prime universe; maybe he has something more expansive in mind.

I don't want to hijack your thread. But when I started another thread that also had the word "wish" in the title, the mod closed it, saying that there was already a thread open. Yours is devoted to unrealistic wishing and fantasy, while mine was meant to consider our preferred resolutions to cliffhangers, as well as possibly other things we would like to see. Since we are stuck with one thread, I guess we can combine these discussions. It may be a moot point. I think people will see the title and assume it is about fantasy stuff, like time-traveling visitors from other Trek shows or Lorca's tribble taking over the ship, and not post about the stuff I'm interested in. Oh, well.

I don't think they've ever named the CMO. But there was one point when Dr. Culber mentioned that he needed to assist the CMO with something -- I think an Andorian tonsillectomy -- which implies that he is not himself the CMO. I generally don't mind the "view from the lower decks" we're getting, even if that means we are never really introduced to important players on the ship. It only bugs me when it makes the behavior of the characters we do know seem puzzling or inappropriate.

Yes, it could be two generations. It could be three. It could be four, if some generations procreated on the young side. With advances in medical technology, it could conceivably be only one generation. I'm still confused about what the objection is here. I joked that Georgiou could be Hoshi's "descendant". That seems consistent with all of the above definitions of "generation". We seem to have gone beyond the actual episode in our discussion. I'm going to try to start a more open-ended thread. The fact that Dr. Culber treats Stamets bugs me. It would be one thing if Culber were the CMO, and therefore would be ultimately responsible for all treatments and might feel he had to take point on the most freaky ones. But he's not; he is one of the ship's doctors. And he is the patient's partner/husband. So why hasn't the CMO bumped him from the case? There might be a good reason, relating to the specialties of the doctors available. It would be nice if they mentioned said reason.

Yeah, I know, the Hoshi-to-Georgiou connection is a bit tenuous :-) Michelle Yeoh is Malaysian (of Chinese heritage), so the writers could fudge it, but would probably be better off not doing so. I'm not sure I understand the timing problem, though maybe it turns on details of the Enterprise episode that I've forgotten. I know Enterprise takes place about 90 years before Disco, so I would think that might permit 3 or 4 generations to pass . . . unless there was some time travel that I'm forgetting . . . which there totally could be! My general point, though, is agreeing with your previous observation that the vibe between Lorca and Michael is more paternal or mentor-like, rather than romantic. It could also be pragmatic, but in a bigger way than most of Lorca's pragmatism -- like he knows he needs her for his endgame (whatever that is) and needs to keep her safe until then.

How's this for a wacky explanation for the connection between Lorca and Michael? Lorca is actually MirrorLorca, and in the mirror universe, he was Michael's mentor. Specifically, he supported her in committing mutiny against MirrorGeorgiou. It seems that people in the mirror universe have personalities that flip around a fulcrum, such that some mirror characters are not hugely different from their prime characters (e.g., Spock) while others go to the polar opposite extreme from their prime counterparts. PrimeGeorgiou was a wonderful, idealistic human being; MirrorGeorgiou = the exact opposite. And she is descended from Empress Hoshi Sato, so she's got power . . . ;-)

Absolutely, I agree. Whatever his damage, machinations, and possible other-universe origins, there is a part of him that wants to look out for junior officers, particularly one who had lost his captain around the same time Lorca lost his crew. Saving Tyler was important to him. Other reactions on the prison ship also seemed genuine: the flinch when the Klingon guard stomped the face of that poor prisoner, attacking Mudd for spying on them. I've got to watch that again! Using the truth in deceptive or manipulative ways is a specialty of Lorca's. In fact, I bet most of what he says is true on some level, it's just that that's not why he says it.

I would have loved to have seen Lorca reacting in-person to Cornwell after her rescue. This episode cemented to me what a masterful manipulator he is, so it would be neat to see what strategy he took with her, or whether she could prompt a genuine non-agenda-driven response from him. But Cornwell has had plenty of time to think during her captivity, and she may have assessed that she is not safe on Discovery and requested to get away quickly. If she hasn't yet briefed Command about Lorca's mental state, she might be right. Speaking of genuine non-agenda-driven responses, I get the sense that we haven't seen a whole lot of those from Lorca. It is hard to know for sure, since we don't know exactly what his agenda is. But here are three moments that I think are purely him, not him playing a role to engender responses in others: When he woke up and held a phaser in Cornwell's face, then apologized. What he said later on in the scene may have been an attempt to placate her, but in that moment he wasn't faking anything. When he expressed just how very much he doesn't give a damn about the gormagander :-) When he medicated his eyes before ordering the torpedoes to blow up the sarcophagus ship -- he totally wanted to watch that sucker explode! Anything else?

Love the Buffy shout-out! :-) [Is everyone here very stoned?] In previous episodes, I wasn't always convinced by the portrayal of Tyler, but I agree that in this one Latif nailed it. I also want to give props to Cornwell. Counseling Tyler, while gravely injured and fending off attacking Klingons with a phaser? Badass. And it worked! She figured out what to say to him to get him to tune in enough to be useful.

Yeah . . . what's up with that? Lorca recruited her, ostensibly because she is useful: her skills, her attitude, etc. We've seen him be quite willing to risk his assets -- for instance, the tardigrade and Stamets. But not her. I agree that it is not personal affection that's holding him back. He likes her well enough, but not that much. It could be that, as CanadaPhil suggests, he is MirrorLorca and knew her in the other universe. Or maybe it goes back to her triggering the war; there seems to be something highly significant about that time, about 7 months ago. Perhaps somehow that caused a breach between the universes?

Oh, he's shady alright. But I'm not convinced that he's evil. He manipulated the hell out of everybody this episode, especially Stamets. But why? Some possibilities: 1. He is really MirrorLorca. This explains why he hijacked the final jump. We saw him override the navigation on the final jump, and he said "Let's go home." Maybe home, for him, is the mirror universe. But I don't quite buy it. He has seemed quite invested in winning the war in our universe. Why would he care so much about that, if he was planning on bailing out on it anyway? Thus, my preferred theory is: 2. He is not MirrorLorca, but he wants to get to a mirror universe. Why? Because that's where he left the Buran. We've now had three people come back from Klingon torture somewhat the worse for wear, but alive. This makes Lorca's story that he killed his entire crew to prevent such a fate increasingly suspect. Yet I do believe he feels guilty about something relating to the Buran. Maybe some spore mishap opened a path into the mirror universe, and they got stuck there. Yeah, I know this is a bit of a leap. But it's the best I've got :-)

Terral was totally trying to play Lorca with the "come to the starbase and we'll give you a medal" ploy. And Lorca saw right through him. Presumably Terral chatted with Cornwell and learned her opinion about Lorca's mental state, and even if he didn't, Terral now knows first hand that Lorca is a wild card. Terral can calculate the odds of Lorca obeying an order to go to the starbase, and they're not pretty. So he tried to trick him with a prospective honor. Lorca has many problems, but stupidity isn't one of them.