ZulaMay

For the life of me I cannot figure out whom Tommy plans to marry. At first I thought surely Grace, because of the baby. Before he was about to be shot he raged about the woman he wanted who loved him and how he "almost had it all." I assumed ALL meant Grace, the baby, the business....everything. Especially since he had mentioned a couple of times leading up to it that he had no kids. But then there was the Churchill thing. Now he has that hanging over his head, he might need more help from connected people....and May is connected. And he ended the episode by saying he had big plans for the business ("big money" as Michael said). Then he said he's getting married. So it seemed as though the business and marriage thing went hand in hand. Which points to May as well, because when Grace said "there's business and then there's love" May was like "Is there? With Thomas Shelby?" She knows the deal and is OK with it. I admit I much prefer May. Grace was OK in S1 when she was a spy and all that, but now? What's interesting about her? To me it's like the show is crackling with energy and when she appears it all dissipates. Especially when she arrived and dropped the pregnancy bomb in her pinky-fluffy perfect little angel outfit. I guess it will be a love triangle inevitably, but I hope we don't see Tommy just marry Mary and then pine after Grace because.....why?! I could live with it if it's mainly because of the kid, but not if he just remains hung up on her. He seems to think she represents this pure ideal, but she's no angel. She cheated on her husband. He asked May when she first came to The Garrison if he "represented something" to her. Maybe he does, but I think Grace represents something to him too. She's not just a woman, she's redemption or something. Anyway, I absolutely love this show. Pretty much everything about it, there is too much to say in one post. The music, acting, production. All phenomenal.

Because she expects Mary to treat her the way she'd treat Mary if the roles were reversed (an unfounded fear, IMO: Mary wouldn't air the family's dirty laundry in public for the sake of petty vengeance). Edith is the one who deliberately set out to ruin Mary's reputation when Mary didn't just take her mocking in silence but responded with a wittier insult. It's Edith's habit to act mean and then turn on her sad, shocked face when her behavior doesn't win her affection, petting and kind words: she can dish it out but she can't take it. And Edith is not behind Mary in the entitlement stakes either, Has Edith ever apologized for something she's done, which would require admitting that she's not always the victim? I genuinely can't remember right now, apart from the vague . Mary hasn't apologized for every act that viewers have had problems with, but she has blamed herself for some of the things that have happened to her. That's why I personally find her a better person than Edith: she can be a bitch, but she can also be kind and doesn't think all her problems are the result of the universe being out to get her. I don't think it's Edith's habit to be mean and then pout when it doesn't get her attention. The fact is Mary got attention no matter what she did, whether she was nice or sharp, demanding or giving. Edith saw how Mary got attention and tried to emulate it (flirting, sniping), but she wasn't good at it so it failed to get her attention. That's just not who she is. So instead she tried to get it in positive ways (being helpful, working at the hospital, writing, finding a suitable husband) but even THAT didn't get her any positive attention. She can't win either way. Mary can take it better because she has the thick skin of someone who has always been validated and tended. Her ego hasn't been damaged like Edith's so it bounces off of her. The fact is that kids who don't get enough emotional support in childhood don't develop those buffers that they need to weather criticism. She is too full of self-doubt to take it. And no one ever defends her even when Mary is truly awful, which probably makes her think she deserves being treated that way. Which she doesn't. I think Edith did blame herself for the pregnancy. She took responsibility, she was going to go terminate it on her own. But Rosamund figured it out. I also think she blames herself for things in the sense that she thinks she's unworthy, and no wonder. She has often been treated as such. As for the world being out to get her? Felllowes has said repeatedly that Edith is unlucky. It is his theme when it comes to the character and that's how he writes her stories. Bad shit happens to her. And he sees her as someone who gets up and soldiers on like "Mother Courage," not as someone with a victim mentality. I don't see why she has no right to feel sorry for herself when bad stuff happens. Mary does too: when Matthew took the inheritance, when he got engaged, when he died. It's natural. And since she doesn't get much attention or sympathy from her family (which she doesn't), she has to nurture herself. Her reaction to bad fortune is a combination of nursing her hurt alone and then getting up and moving on, like the walking wounded.

I don't think Mary would see herself as better than Sybil in general. They were very different and she knows that, but she loved her and I think admired her. She told Matthew "she was the strong one (Sybil)." Personally I find Sybil the superior one in terms of spirit, heart, etc. But more importantly TOM found her to be so. There is a reason why he fell for her and not for Mary. I realize they have both changed and are close now, but Mary is still fundamentally the same person and so is he. She does care about status and wealth. She has been bred to marry a titled man and that is still how she envisions her life. Tom might be helping her run the estate, their kids might be growing up like siblings, but that doesn't mean he meets her criteria for a husband. She would have to change drastically to be right for him, way too drastically for me to ever buy it. After four years of friendship I feel the dynamic is established. He is her brother-in-law, friend, and employee. She respects him and even loves him. But in many ways he is only a step above Anna in her pecking order. She is still "above" him. After all, she is warm and close and loyal with Anna too. That doesn't mean she thinks Anna is her equal. And if they were going to be attracted to each other or emotionally drawn to each other in a romantic way, I think it would have happened already. I could have seen an affair of some sort in their mutual state of grief after Matthew died, but the time for that has passed. I just don't see Tom having his emotional needs met in marriage to her, at all. She is warm with him but as a friend. As a wife she would not give him the kind of warmth and affection that Sybil did. And can't see him ever adoring her and finding deep fulfillment with her like he did with Sybil. And he wouldn't meet her need for status. As for Tom and Edith, I don't think they'd meet each others needs either. Perhaps Edith would get more out of it than Tom would because he would be loving and supportive. But he couldn't show her the passion that Michael did, and IMO she needs and deserves that. Now she knows how it feels. She would also feel forever in Sybil's shadow, just as she has felt in her sisters' shadows her whole life. That would be a big problem. I think Tom/Edith make more sense as partners in terms of priorities and interests. Sure, Tom runs the estate with Mary but that's a job, not a passion. He was a journalist because he wanted to be. He didn't just fall into it because he needed a job. But I still don't see them as spouses. A lot would have to change. Not as much as with Mary IMO, but too much.

Me too. JoFro really needs to get another person to do her eyebrows. They're over-plucked, uneven, and kind of tacky. It's obvious Michelle Dockery has her eyebrows done too but it's a much more subtle, symmetrical, and high-end job. I have no idea why the costume/style department doesn't do something about JoFro. I know the actresses were told NOT to do their eyebrows. They have said so. And JBF didn't do hers at all (you can tell they're natural just by looking). I don't think LC does either. Again, MD does but it's artful enough to work. And I can't stand Bates when he's any of the above either. Smarmy and creepy comes to mind for me too. I don't find him good-looking, although I might if he lost thirty pounds (about five of them in his face). But a better personality would help enormously. I found Harold Levinson more attractive and Paul Giamatti is no looker.

The problem is that Mary is in fact inferior to Sybil in terms of spirit, charm, heart and beauty. And if Tom DID regain his swagger he would never go for someone like Mary. The irony is he is the one who would be settling for her, not the other way around. No matter how hard he tries, Fellowes is never going to sell me some bullshit about Mary being as lovable as her sister way in any way or able to give Sybil's widower back some of the happiness he lost. YMMV.

I don't think he is going to go to America in the end, not forever anyway. Robert's change in attitude is to show that if Tom decides to stay it will be because he WANTS to and not because he was pressured or guilted by the Crawleys. They can't make Tom look any more accommodating than he already does. He just now got back part of his spine.

So perfect. Mary is literally like the bitchy stepsister who gets treated like Cinderella by the writer. I supposed JF thinks it's clever to inverse the formula, but IMO that trick has gotten stale and transparent. And highly unsatisfying. There's a reason Cinderella is a classic.

I think "going to Poland" is code for "the actor was busy with another project so they sent him away for a while, leaving open the possibility of his returning in the CS or S6 just as Mary is getting involved with someone else." I think S6 was said to be the last but recently Allen Leech said he thinks 7 would be ideal and necessary to wrap up the stories, or something. So that might be code for "we'll do Series 7 if the ratings are still high enough to rake in a lot of dough." I did think Atticus was "housekeeping" to marry off Rose because Lily was leaving, and that might be the case. But IDK. This past episode made me start to doubt that. There was so much talk of how fast it was moving, even from the two of them. Rose seemed to be acting very impulsive and caught up in the whirlwind romance. She mentioned they don't know each other that well. But they're throwing caution to the wind despite knowing the risks. When does that ever work out well on this show? It could be another situation like with Blake. They left it open to give them room to go either way, depending on her decision and schedule and where JF chooses to take it. He really does make up a lot of this stuff as he goes along.

I agree. Mary's getting the life she wants has had little to do with competence. For the most part she has just been lucky and supported by the people around her. Lavinia dies, Richard doesn't publish, her parents forgive the Pamuk thing and so does Matthew, Isobel talks Matthew into letting of his guilt and getting back with Mary, Swire leaves him a fortune, Tom talks him off the wall the night before the almost-canceled wedding, Violet meddles with Matthew by telling him Mary is still in love with him, Lavinia is fast-tracked for sainthood and ships them from beyond the grave. And so forth. Then she was lucky enough to survive childbirth and not develop eclampsia, which often runs in families. Her husband leaves her his fortune that once belonged to the woman they betrayed. Everyone helps her through her grief and encourages her to help run the estate, which she doesn't even seem to do anymore much. What did she ever do to earn her life? I can't think of anything.

I meant to say Blake, not Tom. Sorry. No Tom seems very hetero. But I am not sure about Atticus. Whether it's that or not I think there will be a problem. It might be the religion or it might not. It's just too fast.

ZoloftBob, I wouldn't be so sure Rose and Atticus are going to ride off happily into the sunset. You've gotten a gay vibe off of both Matthew and Blake. Not Atticus? I do. And his kiss with Rose was awkward. He seems rather too perfect and puppyish. I can't explain it, I just have a feeling. They were banging on last night about how they didn't want to wait, they barely knew each other but they were so in love! Those crazy kids. They are making it seem like the religious difference will be the problem, but that might be a red herring. I think they might pull a switch and have something else be the problem. Because it's true, they barely know each other. It all seemed weirdly rushed and they even seem to be making a point of saying it. Then there's what Mary said earlier in the season about needing to make sure she and Tony were compatible in the bedroom. What about Rose and Atticus? I completely agree with ZulaMay's reaction to a Tom/Mary hook up. It would be a revolting betrayal of both Tom and Sybil, and quite frankly, I don't think Mary would go for it anyway. The whole idea makes no sense to me in any way, and if that is the end game I will rue the day I ever started watching this show. ​I feel the same way. If they do that I will seriously wish I never heard of this damned show. Sybil was my favorite sister and they were my favorite couple. Tom with Mary would be a betrayal of her memory, of what she and they represented. They will have literally changed him into a different character altogether: Matthew 2.0. There to help run the estate, serve Mary's sexual needs and tell her how nice she REALLY is whenever it is in doubt....which is always. I would be sick. And IMO it would not work on any level, be a cheat and a cop-out and a huge disappointment in general. I don't think they have any sexual chemistry. They seem like siblings so the idea is doubly creepy. I still have some hop for Rose. That is if my Atticus theory proves to be correct.

Oh God that thought just turns my stomach. Tom who love Sybil, had principles and goals, was a journalist and wanted to work for his country's freedom.....stuck in that house for the rest of his life propping up her wealth and privilege, making it his life's work and having the chore of always reminding his wife she's nicer than she seems? What a sick thought. When he had the sister who didn't need to be REMINDED she was nice because she just was and always acted that way. He deserves so much better, and if they do this they will have killed Sybil the progressive sister to serves Mary's story and completely change his character to suit her needs. I didn't mind her marrying Matthew because that made sense in the narrative but Tom? That's just lazy and it's using Tom's character. I hate how they just use characters as plot devices for Mary, especially when said character had a life and purpose in his own right and served the OTHER sister's character. It would be like killing Sybil all over again and dismantling Tom's character even further. And Matthew just turned into her doormat when he married her, gave up his own life and character entirely. I didn't like that either. I prefer Blake because he is the character he has always been and wouldn't HAVE to change for Mary. And he's not a sweet, affectionate sort like Tom who would mind if his wife didn't want to hold his hand in public. Tom and Sybil always held hands. That's who Tom is. I like them as brother/sister but that's it. Cannot see any romantic chemistry or even passion. It would be dull and depressing. Same with Tom/Edith. I hope that was just a nice Robert/Tom conversation and nothing more. He did mention that all he would wish in Tom's wife was she be friendly with the family, not that she shares their values. And Tom doesn't share them all (or their politics) and he isn't afraid to say so now. So to me it makes more sense that this was setting him up to meet the sort of person Robert was describing. Not someone like Mary. And also to show that he DOES like Tom as a son-in-law now. The fact that he would have liked Toff Tony doesn't mean he likes Tom any less. Just that they would be equal in his eyes, just different. I got that sense from the conversation. As for Tom reminding Mary she's nice....maybe that's just him filling the Matthew role to "tell" us she's nice because right now no one else is inclined to do it. And why should they be? She needed Matthew to do it and right now she has no one, so Tom is just filling that role....as a brother.

There is a difference between demanding respect and being an entitled, imperious Queen Bee. Commanding respect entails earning it, which Mary doesn't do. She just expects and demands it because she's always been given it no matter what. Edith has tried to earn it and never gotten it even when she deserves it, so she gave up. Trust me, I wish she would tell Mary to STFU and just stay in London as much as anyone does. But she's Fellowes' butt monkey so that's not going to happen. At this point none of the characters is being written at all realistically anyway, so I am just going to judge what I see. And I see Mary being such a bitch that even Violet calls her out on it. NOTBOTHERED, ON 02 NOV 2014 - 8:28 PM, SAID: Yes. Mary is terrible, but they are both terrible. But Mary does not have the entire story, and Edith continues to be petulant. I don't see Edith being terrible to Mary? Because she said she doesn't want Mary "queening it over her" or because she wouldn't tell her about the baby and give her a "chance" to be understanding? What reason does she have to trust in her sister given how Mary smacks her down for the least little thing she does? So Edith is right to call her out on it. I don't consider that petulant, I consider it the cold hard facts. And it was not petulant to call out Mary on her smug little fashion show last episode. Mary had enough of the story not to pull that crap: Edith had just found out for sure her lover/boyfriend/whatever was murdered. That's all the facts Mary needed. There's mopey and there's terrible. They are two completely different categories. Anyway, it belongs in the E/M thread where all the facts can be laid on the table.

I think the Rose Atticus romance is meant to seem rushed, because they both admitted as much to each other. I know this seems crazy because we barely know each other, but we're madly in love and let's get married!! Clearly they adore each other and it's impossible not to root for them, especially given the obstacles they face and the snobbery of the worst human being ever to sit at the Crawley table, Larry Gray. And his only slightly less awful brother Tim. Still, I think it is meant to seem a bit heedless and breathless and wild. Those Crazy Kids! But can it all be so easy....love conquers all? IDK. This is Downton we're talking about.

I doubt Tom is really leaving. He better not. Bates was insufferable. The way he talked to Baxter? There is something so quietly threatening about him. He's so damned patronizing. I wish they'd leave.

Why did they kill Isis? To prove Robert loves her more than Edith? Why in the Hell does Edith even want to come home? It would seem more fun to be in London and hang around the newspaper office. The scene with Tom/Sybbie was adorable but if he leaves the show after that pointless two-season-long storyline for which they killed Sybil? I will cut a bitch. LOVED Violet admitting she'd miss Isobel, and talking about her with such affection and admiration. I am not usually a Violet fan but that was lovely. Also that she told Mary to stop being such a heartless cow about her sister. I did like the Cora/Rosamund/Violet interactions but I can't muster much sympathy for Cora being "kept in the dark." They did, but your eyes adjust to darkness and can still see things. Cora's just blind. They kept it a secret because that was what Edith wanted. It sucks for her that Edith didn't want to tell her but that's at least partly her own fault. That said I am glad she didn't judge her and was instantly wanting Marigold in her life. Big props for that. That is one of Cora's best qualities. She doesn't judge and she would never turn her back on her family for making a mistake. But again, I don't fault Edith for not wanting to tell her because Cora does openly prefer Mary and Edith is insecure in her love. That's on her head. Does anyone else find it unrealistic that Merton's sons are such enormous pricks? I mean, really? They insulted everyone at the table and that's just not how a gentleman behaved. I could see them talking smack behind their backs or being quietly snide but not picking a fight like that. Anyway, glad Tom called him a bastard. But LOL that everyone was clutching their pearls a bit at the use of that word given the way the Merry Mertons behaved.

I don't think being wittier would have made that moment any more appealing. It was cruel to do that and it wouldn't be any less cruel if she were wittier. Sometimes it's funny, but when she goes too far not even an excess of wit can make it enjoyable. As for being more "competent" than Edith? How is that the case? What does Mary do better than Edith does except hold people in her thrall? Edith is the one who writes a column and helps run a newspaper, the one who is quick to learn new things and shows an interest in them. The one who worked at the hospital and did a great job at it. I do think Mary is smart and competent but I see no hard evidence that she is any more so than Edith. There is plenty of evidence to point to Edith's competence. And I don't like sappy self-sacrificing martyr characters either. I hated what they did to Lavinia. I like sassy female characters and I don't mind some bitchiness. In fact when I watched "Parades End" I preferred Sylvia to Valentine. But Mary IMO has Sylvia's bad qualities but with less charm, depth and charisma. And the biggest difference is that Mary is presented as the heroine. Sylvia was presented in a much more complex way. And she had a real antagonist, which Mary does not. Sylvia was presented as the anti-heroine she was meant to be. Mary is presented as a "flawed heroine" but comes across more as a villain a lot of the time.

I was offended by the Swire money plot. Offended that poor Lavinia's money went to save the estate of the two people who betrayed her on her deathbed, and we were manipulated by absurd plot twists into the notion that it was "for the best," it was what Lavinia would have wanted as well her father. Especially since as I have said, there was NO evidence her father knew about the little makeout sesh in the hallway that his daughter witnessed. It made me sick to my stomach. Lavinia was abused enough as a character as it was without giving her money to Mary. Who had no remorse over what happened and no respect for Matthew's scruples. I am not saying Matthew shouldn't have taken the money, just that I hated how Mary behaved about it (that was the ugliest side of her emerging) and how the whole thing was written. Ugh. As for Mary and Edith, I agree Mary is a lot better at cutting people down than Edith is. And yes, Edith went after Mary plenty in S1. BUT she has improved steadily since then and has not instigated sniping nearly as much as Mary has. Is it because she knows she'll lose? In part, yes. But it's partly because she is too mature for that now. She's not fighting a battle she knows she is going to lose. So why in the Hell does Mary keep fighting a battle she won a long time ago? It's petty and mean. If Edith is resentful of her sister ( as she has EVERY right to be) then she has at least managed to keep it to herself for a long time. For the most part. And that in itself shows self-discipline that Mary lacks. She has been sensitive to her sister in her time of pain, as she was in S2 when Matthew disappeared and when he died. Certaily she didn't rub salt in the wound. But when Gregson goes missing, when he is discovered to have been murdered, not only is Mary insensitive, she is downright cruel about it. Her complete lack of empathy is appalling. So yes, Edith has played her part in the feud and she is probably still envious but again, that is perfectly natural under the circumstances. And she has not instigated things for a long time. So she is withdrawing from a losing battle that she would prefer to win. Fair enough. But that's a damned sight more mature and healthy than continuing to wage a battle that was won a long time ago. It should be enough for Mary that she is the victor. But it never is. All other things being equal, I'd say Edith is being the bigger and better person here. So I give the moral victory to her. It can't be easy to absorb those blows all the time but she does it. It's called having the strength to accept the things you can't change. She didn't absorb the blow when Mary put on her fashion show this past episode, but why should she? That crossed a line. She didn't insult Mary: she called her out on her lack of empathy and her narcissism. And instead of having the self-awareness or grace to admit fault, Mary launched a brutal attack in front of a room full of people. A victor can afford to be gracious sometimes, but Mary isn't. Edith has learned to be a much better loser. Mary is still an abysmal winner. That's what happens when you don't teach your child good sportsmanship.

I am inclined to think it is a nasty joke or misunderstanding (she went to the wrong room). We know they get married. There are no friends of his in the episode, just a friend of Robert's and some older guy named Basil Shute. But then he might be some jerk who plays this trick on him because he's an anti-Semite or something. There are pictures of Atticus and this woman in what appears to be a bar or gentleman's club. So maybe some guys there don't like him being a member and play a dirty joke like Larry Gray might do. If Larry Gray were in the episode I'd assume it was him, but he's not. Now we know so little of this guy and it all happened so fast that it could be there is a nasty surprise about him that Rose doesn't discover until later. She had very little time to get to know him: she meets him in 5 and three episodes later they're married? Usually that's a bad sign: Jack and Rose, Edith and Anthony. Plus we know that the title was created when his family bought the house, and in the clip from 7 it appears that the locals are having some issues with that, and with them being Jewish. Robert also mentioned something about it in 5. He and Lady Sinderby discuss it at dinner in 7. So they are moving up in the world but still not completely accepted. Rose is a Marguess' daughter which is prestigious, even if they have no money left. So could it be that Mr. Perfect - with whom she had a rushed and idyllic courtship - is hiding an agenda? Trying to climb the ladder? It wouldn't be that surprising I guess. But neither would it be surprising if someone is trying to sabotage them. But I am inclined to think it's a mislead. I don't think they'd want to end the season on such an ominous note.

Matthew did plan to do something useful with the money. He told Mary if he took it he'd just give it all to charity. And that is every bit as useful as spending it on Downton, isn't it? Downton might benefit the local populace but so does charity. He wasn't planning on giving it over to the state or anything. My problem was not the decision he made or didn't make. Of course choosing to take the money would have been a valid course of action. But it was the WAY Mary handled it that was appalling. She didn't seem to understand his guilt at all, needled and badgered and nagged him about it, accused him of being at fault for them losing the house (when it was really Robert's fault), almost called off their wedding. Then she opened his personal mail behind his back, against his express wishes. I know they are married but sorry, there are still limits. Mary had no relationship with Mr. Swire and given what she had done to his daughter she should not have interfered with his relationship with Matthew that way. We have plenty of context now in which to evaluate her actions. She won't take no for an answer, she evaluates men based on their wealth and status, among other things. She has proven herself to be self-serving, self-absorbed and pragmatic to the point of coldness in her relationships. Whatever Matthew did or did not choose to do with the money, it does not excuse they way she handled it. He had a conscience and she had no respect for it, or even for his privacy. And her priorities were screwy too. No one else was butthurt about having to live in a ten-bedroom house....except her. Literally, no one else.

Edith's romantic feelings ran away from her twice and in neither case did it take up much of her time. Maybe a few weeks tops. Mary spent the entire war focused on her personal romantic life. She cared for Matthew, true, but that was not entirely unselfish. She did it AFTER he had sent Lavinia away and by all appearances had ended it with her. She did it because she was still in love with him and wanted to be near him. And in part, IMO, because she hoped she might still get him back. Why did she keep stalling her marriage to Richard? Which she did. He thought it was because she still held out hope for Matthew, and IMO he was right. What Sybil said to Edith about finding a purpose? She said that AFTER the war was over, not during it. Both were talking about how they didn't want to go back to lying around all day. Edith's decision to learn to drive and work at the hospital was all her own. Sybil didn't tell her to do it. She took that initiative. I realize Mary was dealing with different issues but they didn't take up much of her time. Matthew was away at the front most of the time. Other than that she had nothing to do but socialize a bit with Lavinia and deal with Richard. She still had a lot of time on her hands and most of it she spent thinking of her own feelings and personal life. She could have worked too but chose not too. All of the other women in the family did. And that was one reason Mary couldn't stop thinking about Matthew. She didn't distract herself by doing something useful. As for Reggie Swire? There was a big plot hole in that, which was we do NOT know what the letter Lavinia wrote to him even said. All Reggie's letter stated was "I know you two were having problems." Maybe he knew Lavinia had called it off but he did not know WHY. Matthew felt guilty because he had cheated on Lavinia....with Mary. Lavinia's letter to her father said nothing about catching them making out in the hall. So he didn't know Matthew had done that. If he had known, would he have given him the money? We don't know. Matthew's feelings and reasons were not invalid. He felt guilty, as well he should. But from the start Mary displayed not an ounce of remorse or understanding for his scruples, even though she was there to see the look on Lavinia's face. She had betrayed her too. Moreover, it was not just saving the house that made her want to get her hands on his money. From the minute she found out Matthew had a letter from Swire's lawyer she started needling him about how maybe he had left him something. Matthew dismissed it but she was interested in a possible inheritance even before she knew Robert had lost the money. Mary is money-hungry. Of course Edith made mistakes during the war but the fact is she dedicated much of it to helping the soldiers...men she didn't know and with whom, as far as we know, she had no romantic interactions. Mary helping Matthew for a while toward the end of the war was entwined with her personal desires. Edith helped many, many people without any personal agenda other than a desire to be useful and fulfilled. It doesn't negate her mistakes but IMO she more than made up for them with what she payed forward to other people during those years. As for their attitude toward Tom, they were on the same side but Mary was much more outwardly snobbish about it than Edith was. She was scornful about him. She was dismissive and contemptuous of him at the hotel (Edith was not), and she said in front of the whole family (and Tom) that she hoped Sybil would "wake up" and not marry him. Edith kept that to herself, at least. She disapproved but she didn't behave like that toward him or express her scorn the way Mary did.

Yes, that's true. I also am almost desperate for Tom to have a real love life. He was so in love with Sybil, he suffered such a tragedy, he seemed to mourn her far longer than anyone else did and he is such a warm, affectionate person. That and he told Isobel back in S4 he DID want to remarry someday, but after all this time nothing has happened! I think a real Tom romance would be a warm and fuzzy storyline if not a fascinating one. I don't need fascinating: I just want happy. And yes, the problem with Mary is she is a protagonist but not being written as one, and written as rather unsympathetic right now. It is very frustrating when the time on her AND on other characters could be spent so much better! Other characters? Well, there are aspects I like and aspects I don't. I like Moseley/Baxter but the whole thing about having a running Moseley joke of the episode (his hair, the First Footman thing) is just annoying to me . The Mrs. Patmore thing is okay but the conflict is not great enough. We know Robert will fix it somehow, don't we? It's so predictable. Anna and Bates...OH MY GOD. Don't get me started. I do like Isobel and Violet but Violet's petty meddling was off-putting. And it's disheartening to think that after all this Violet might still get her way and Isobel might not marry him after all. After that lovely proposal....what a sad thought. IDK if it will happen but I can see it. And again, it is just a repetition of the usual Downton story. Violet bests Isobel. But if Isobel decides for herself then Violet of course won't be to blame and the petty meddling will be forgotten, just because it worked out that way. So the Mary thing is, in many ways, at heart a complaint about the writing. Please make the heroine a bit more complex and sympathetic, stop "telling" us how great she is (she pulls off the haircut that other women can't!! Men adore her!!), give her some goals and obstacles, stop giving her everything in the end and tormenting Edith endlessly. It's NOT good writing. It's aggravating. I want to like her and I did back in S2. I don't enjoy disliking her or the way her family deals with her and Edith. A little balance is in order. Anyway, yes, there is a Mary/Edith thread so sorry, I'll take it there. And we have been discussing it a lot there. It's just that this particular conversation is about this episode, how Mary reacted to Michael's death, what they said to each other. So it is episode-related and there is a lot of disagreement over it. True, we'll never agree.

No one is letting Strallan off the hook, but Robert was worse than unenthusiastic. He told Anthony to stay away from her, and made it clear that he was not happy with the match. That "pained" expression Anthony had was seen as often when he was being dismissed by Robert as it was with Edith. Much more so. And Mary has not proactively searched for a husband more than Edith has. What is your evidence for that? Her mother threw a big party for her and invited men, including Tony. Tony almost immediately proposed to her. Then Napier brought Blake to the house and he fell for her even though she was pretty rude to him. After that she was beating them both off with a stick. She didn't lift a finger to find herself a man. They came to her on a silver platter. And she turns them away and expects them to circulate back to her like cocktails at a party. Edith got herself Anthony against the efforts of her family, then got Michael's attention on her own. And he fell for her and she for him. Why should she turn away and forget him because of his complicated domestic situation? She was in love with him, just like like Mary was in love with Matthew. Who, by the way, was thrown at her head from the moment he arrived (as she herself has said) and whom she rejected at first until she realized she better nab him before he went for someone else....like maybe her beautiful, nicer younger sister. Mary didn't forget Matthew when they were both engaged to other people. She remained attached, and her family totally enabled it. She got engaged to Richard but stalled and stalled until Matthew's fiancé conviently died and he was available again. Of course Michael's WIFE couldn't die because that would make things way too easy for Edith! Again, that double standard. Mary hasn't done any more to find herself someone than Edith has. Less so. And she has had a lot more help and a lot less sabotage from her family. Good God, if anything she's been resistant while at the same time longing for it. Edith would have gladly taken the help but she never got it. She was left on her own. I do think Edith deserves someone who will fight for her but she also didn't deserve to have her family discourage a man who DID want to marry her and vice-versa. You Have Given Me Back My Life. Those are not the words of a man who doesn't want to marry his fiancé.